[Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays - Winning in Vinage on a Budget

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15784.html

blurb:

Monday, April 28th - Vintage… the Format of Kings. Traditionally, a successful Vintage deck would both require a king-sized brain to pilot, and a king’s ransom to assemble. However, in these modern times, it seems that tournament structure allows a lot more flexibility in deck creation, and the ultra-diverse metagame means there are many options open to the cash-strapped Eternal spellslinger…

[feyd]

That's pretty funny.  You are advertising to players that are new to vintage that have a limited budget...yet want them to buy a membership to scg.com?... spend five bucks on a playset of brainstorm or spend five bucks to have someone tell me that I should buy a playset of brainstorm...hmmm..tough call on that one!  hahaha
If you want to attract new vintage players and guide them on the budget decks it seems counter-intuitive, in my opinion, to have them pay for that info.  I think that most people trying to break into vintage will have done at least some cursory research and perhaps even come across this site; This site offers a tremendous ammount of insight and knowledge at no cost to the individual.  If they have a stringent budget I think they'd gather up all the knowledge that is available to them free of cost.

[Zherbus]

That post isn't really fair, feyd.

Firstly, there's a happy medium of players. It's a huge gray area that doesn't include the near-unlimited resource player or the person who actually needs to worry about the cost of a playset of Brainstorms (seriously!). Many players who can afford staple cards like Stifle, Tarmogoyf, fetchlands, and Dark Confidant also have subscriptions to SCG Premium for non-Menendian articles. Also note that in the article he assumes one can at least obtain a playset of FoW's. Some of those players tend to read Menendian's articles despite not being interested directly in Vintage, but never read TMD. If he helps sway just a small handful of players towards Vintage, then his aim with the article is a success.

I do agree that any 'come try it' Vintage article is always better presented to the general public, but that's SCG's call not Menendian's. Still, I think it's far from a total loss to only capture the Premium crowd now and the entire public later (assuming it's still relevant).

[eightywpm]

I'm assuming that because of the premium status of the articles that thewriters are being paid, seems like simple economics to me.  Also, I've noticed that when new articles come out that the TMD community is made aware.  I also know that eventaully these articles stop being premium and are available to the public.  A great service to everybody involved would be to cap these posts with the actual article once it becomes free on SCG.  That way those of us who are not interested in paying the monthly dues but still enjoy Vintage for other reasons can gain insight into the article.

I know that I have not been active on TMD much (at all?) but have paid attention for quite some time to what goes on in the Vintage scene.  I have a budget that could probably afford the cost of membership but I am not interested in reading the articles because I have been so disappointed with so many of the old ones that have been made public on SCG.  I have also seem arguments on here from writers on SCG and think that at times they are sketchy at best (pm me if you're interested in any examples, for all zero of you that are) and would not be willing to dump even the 5 bucks for a playset of Brainstorms into getting the news "now"

However, if the articles were posted here (even delayed) at the end of these announcement threads, perhaps it would even entice some of us to reconsider the membership.  Or, if not posting the entire article, at least posting a URL to the article once it becomes public.  That way everybody wins, and with the link, SCG still gets the hit to the website.

Just my two cents (which still feels like too much).

[Troy_Costisick]

That's pretty funny.  You are advertising to players that are new to vintage that have a limited budget...yet want them to buy a membership to scg.com?... spend five bucks on a playset of brainstorm or spend five bucks to have someone tell me that I should buy a playset of brainstorm...hmmm..tough call on that one!  hahaha
If you want to attract new vintage players and guide them on the budget decks it seems counter-intuitive, in my opinion, to have them pay for that info.  I think that most people trying to break into vintage will have done at least some cursory research and perhaps even come across this site; This site offers a tremendous ammount of insight and knowledge at no cost to the individual.  If they have a stringent budget I think they'd gather up all the knowledge that is available to them free of cost.

You're assuming the only reason people get a premium membership is to read about Vintage.  There's a lot of great articles about Limted, Standard, and Extended on SCG.  There's a plenty big audience for those articles.  It's a good article, Steve.  By the way, do you think the new Wizards Play Network will include proxy Vintage as a supported format for rewards?  If it does, it could be another great way to introduce people to the format

Peace,

-Troy

[Sextiger]

Feyd's point is perfectly reasonable.  If your subscribing to a Magic website, then you can be sure than that the readers are probably a lot more into magic than someone just getting into a format.  Anyone who plays and reads about Limited and Standard, aka the money suckers and the soul gougers, has probably no interest in a budget article. 

[Smmenen]

That's pretty funny.  You are advertising to players that are new to vintage that have a limited budget...yet want them to buy a membership to scg.com?... spend five bucks on a playset of brainstorm or spend five bucks to have someone tell me that I should buy a playset of brainstorm...hmmm..tough call on that one!  hahaha

That's true, but it's also true that there would be no article at all without premium to fund it.   

So, does that mean I shouldn't have written an article on this subject?   

[Sextiger]

You should have forged your article from sticks, stones and a Pentium I computer, to be sure that it really was a budget article. 

Right now is a very odd time for people thinking about getting into vintage from other formats like Standard just because people are playing 40 bucks a piece for Goyfs when they could find a whole list of Vintage playables for that price.  It seems more expensive to get into Standard these days than Vintage within a proxy format. 

[Xman]

I think the biggest problem I have found with new players trying to get into Vintage is this.  The Cost of Dual Lands.  Most of the other cards needed have relatively low costs, but Duals run $40 each for the ones you need, of which you need 6 or so.  On top of that, you then need 4-6 Fetches.  You can build the rest of the deck (sans power) for the cost or less than that of the mana base.  I realize people are paying $50 or so for cards like Tarmogoyf.  But I have found that players getting in have trouble justifying getting a deck with a mana base that runs into the $300-$400 range.

[Sextiger]

I think the biggest problem I have found with new players trying to get into Vintage is this.  The Cost of Dual Lands.  Most of the other cards needed have relatively low costs, but Duals run $40 each for the ones you need, of which you need 6 or so.  On top of that, you then need 4-6 Fetches.  You can build the rest of the deck (sans power) for the cost or less than that of the mana base.  I realize people are paying $50 or so for cards like Tarmogoyf.  But I have found that players getting in have trouble justifying getting a deck with a mana base that runs into the $300-$400 range.

Ebay usually has blue duals for 100 or so a set.  Players were/are already paying hundreds of dollars for type 2 mana bases, thank you wizards!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I think the biggest problem I have found with new players trying to get into Vintage is this.  The Cost of Dual Lands.  Most of the other cards needed have relatively low costs, but Duals run $40 each for the ones you need, of which you need 6 or so.  On top of that, you then need 4-6 Fetches.  You can build the rest of the deck (sans power) for the cost or less than that of the mana base.  I realize people are paying $50 or so for cards like Tarmogoyf.  But I have found that players getting in have trouble justifying getting a deck with a mana base that runs into the $300-$400 range.

if your looking at starting from nothing duels fetch and fow can seem a bit out of reach. I've always though oath was a great starting deck, its a simple straight forward strategy (depending on oath variant) and relatively high powered. there is just go getting around 4x fow, but forbidden orchard makes it so you can play 4x fetch 4x duel.

[coyoteuglly]

While I think it is a good thing to get more people involved in T1.  I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way.

The problem, I believe, for most people have with getting into Type One isn't really a money issue at all.  I would be willing to bet that the average person looking to get into T1 isn't someone that is just starting to play Magic.  But more of the PTQ crowd looking for competitive tournaments to play in between PTQs.  Which genearlly have pretty decent sized collections, probably wouldn't have much of a problem trading Standard or Extended cards for T1 cards.  The difficulty is normally finding T1 players willing to "trade down" there T1 playables for Standard playables is much harder to find.  Also a lot of T1 players only have 4x Force, 4x Merchant Scroll, 4x Duels, 4x Worskshop, 1x Mystical, 1x YawgWill, ect.  Not a lot of people are willing to part with or break up there playsets of things, incase they decide to play RandomX.dec at the next tournament.

Even in the Milwaukee area with Team GWS and ICBM, both which have extremely talented Magic players, most only play T1.  The T2/PTQ players, which there are quite a few good ones, stick to T2/PTQs.  There are very few indviduals that play both, unless an event is local.  Either an ICBM open or a tournament at Game Universe (the major Milwaukee area store).

Most of these said T2/PTQ players also don't want to play budget decks, because while they may be competitive, they genearlly are not up to par against most T1 decks.  And if they were to go to a T1 tournament they would not be showing up to mearly hand over there 20-30 dollars and lose.  They want to attend a tournament with a deck they belive has a legitimite chance to win.  Not HideTideVersion.Outdated.dec.

The other big factor is learning curve.  Just having to learn an entire new set of 20+ viable or potentially viable decks, along with a set of cards that is 15 years old is a daunting task.  While yes, you can cut out a massive amount of chaff (seriously who cares about the 15 varient of Shock?), it is a massivly daunting task when you have no clear starting point on where to look.

The third smaller factor is that the format is still seen as completely luck based.  And while I can not honestly say this is entirely untrue, as there are a lot of things that happen where you are just simply boned (turn 1 Orchard/Oath, or turn 1 Flash kill you, top deck YawgWill).  There is still a decent amount of interactivity involved, where playskill will win the day.  And dispelling the myth that T1 is COMPLETLY luck based will go a long way towards getting more people involved in the format.  Because over the long run the best players will win the most.  But it is hard to get someone to believe that when they show up for there first tournament and get Flashed out on turn one twice in round one.

[Troy_Costisick]

I think the biggest problem I have found with new players trying to get into Vintage is this.  The Cost of Dual Lands.  Most of the other cards needed have relatively low costs, but Duals run $40 each for the ones you need, of which you need 6 or so.  On top of that, you then need 4-6 Fetches.  You can build the rest of the deck (sans power) for the cost or less than that of the mana base.  I realize people are paying $50 or so for cards like Tarmogoyf.  But I have found that players getting in have trouble justifying getting a deck with a mana base that runs into the $300-$400 range.

Ebay usually has blue duals for 100 or so a set.  Players were/are already paying hundreds of dollars for type 2 mana bases, thank you wizards!

Yeah, if it weren't for the price on Dual Lands, Fetch Lands, and Tolarian Academy, I think more people would get into Vintage.  But the mana base is just obscene for someone just starting out, and that doesn't even include other lands like Workshops, Bazaars, Library, and Wastelands. 

Peace,

-Troy

[tomjoad]

re: The price of mana bases: Anybody who played in Ravnica era t2 has paid ghastly prices to do so. Even the non-Blue duals in Ravnica were $20+ at that time. Anybody who played in the last Extended season has also had to pay a lot for duals, although perhaps less as the Rav duals have come down in price. Either way, these people have shown a willingness in the past to pay exorbitant sums for stable mana, and it doesn't seem unthinkable that (once exposed to the awesomeness of t1) they will do so again.

re: The competitiveness of the Budget decks in Steve's article: I'll assume that whoever brought that up doesn't have SCG premium access. The point of Steve's article was that there are several decks that are not only budget-friendly, but also incredibly good (tier 1 or 1.5). Therefore, a relatively meager investment can produce stupendous results.

Excellent article Steve. Just so you know, it was one of your previous budget articles (when you first talked about Manaless Ichorid) that got me to try t1 in the first place. Up to that point I was a t2/Ext/PTQ player. Since then I have been exposed to the superiority of t1 over all other constructed formats, so these articles really do work.

[Xman]

I believe that there is a big difference between paying $20 for a card & Paying $40-$50 for a card.  Even with the proxy environment, the decks are all absurdly expensive to build.  At least, that is what I have heard from people who I tried to get into the format at a local card shop.  And it is such a different game than type 2 or even Extended.  Hell, Legacy is generally looked at as a close relation, and it is.  But not a close enough one.

The gameplay (especially in the current meta) is so absurd it is taking away from Type 1.  It does add to our "luck" based format.  We all believe it is perfectly acceptable to lose one game to our opponents sheer brokenness or bad luck.  This is normal for us.  People coming from other formats see stuff like Turn 1 Flash or Turn 1 Tendrils or Turn 1 Freeze or Psychatog -> time Walk -> Yawg's Win -> Berserk & see something completely crazy.  I think that it is the fact that this format is spoon-bendingly, hallucinaticly mad & absurd (to borrow from Top Gear) puts people off.  And we all love the format for what it is.  Everyone here knows it is a different animal than every other format of MTG.  And we love it for it.

But other players look at the format as something completely different.  They see it as "my opponent is running the most broken cards EVER."  They see it as diving with Great Whites with an open wound.  It is something that (I believe) most MTG players look at as "Why the hell would anyone ever do that."

But there are people who look at that & see fun.

So while I think the price is one of the biggest limiting factors to new people joining our format (aside from a few "Budget" Decks, assuming "Budget Deck" is a relative term) is the outside view of the format.  I think Coyoteugly hit the nail on the head.  But I also believe that if we get 1 out of 100 people to try this format, and if 1 out of 10 of those stay, we have a good addition to our tight nit community.

[playkenny]

It's not just the price of duels, its the fact that they are:
1. Generally unavailable
2. Cannot be used in other formats (bar legacy)

We have this discussion here is Aussie all the time, and i'm a keen advocate of increasing the proxy count (currently @ 5) but people still complain about card availability, and not just moxen and semi power, simple stuff like FoW's, wastelands can be issues, becasue they invest in cards that cannot be use in PTQ tournaments. Price is a lesser issue.

I agree with coyoteuglly's points also.

Haven't read your article Steve (no premium) but good job anyways

[feyd]

Price is a factor!
Please don't come here saying that vintage is a cheap format.
Vintage is a format for those who can see long term value.  I don't invest in a dual-land because it is good in type 2 or legacy.  I see it as an investment in my magic "career".  I use dual lands in fun decks, legacy decks, vintage decks, and multiplayer decks.  Why do I want to take two damage to play two colors?
Paying hard currency for a member ship to some website when the price of rice and petroleum is rising is reason enough to keep players away from vintage.  Paying for common knowledge is ludicrous. 

"I also know that eventaully these articles stop being premium and are available to the public.  A great service to everybody involved would be to cap these posts with the actual article once it becomes free on SCG.  That way those of us who are not interested in paying the monthly dues but still enjoy Vintage for other reasons can gain insight into the article."

@Steven Mennedian:  Please take head.  I don't want to rain on your parade for profiting on your writing abilities.  I have seen that you are a logical, proficient writer.  But don't attempt to entice fledgling vintage adepts to join some site when the information they desparately need could be attained through free, public mediums.  I will not advise you at all.  You will do what you feel is in your best interests.  Please realize, though, that money does not flow as easily as blood from a wound for all mtg players. 

@MTG community:  The cost of magic cards has been fluctuating since the inception of the game.  The price of dual lands and force of will have risen since the realization that they are beastly.  I suggest all players who value a fair fight to invest in a proxy fish deck.  I advise all players who need instant gratification to invest in a proxy flash deck.  All those who need to feel in control to invest in landstill.  Knowing what type of personality you are and what type of magic player you are will cut more costs than buying into some subscription for magic articles.  I think this may be the cheasiest thing I have ever said: Follow your heart.  If you really like playing aggro play fish, ichorid, empty gush, or some iteration of fish.  If you must play combo play flash, tendrils, or oath.  If you need control play drain tendrils, landstill, or counterspell.dec.  Invest wisely and your efforts will be rewarded with being elligible to compete in the most wild, competetive, and deadly format available to magic players.
    Magic is a game of skill and chance; If you don't feel comfortable rolling the dice then vintage is not the environment for you.  On the other hand if you are a savy gambler who enjoys being rewarded for making risky moves then I invite you to muster up the heart and dough to compete in the most volatile and challenging format magic has to offer.
    In life and cards we roll the dice.

[GUnit]

10 Proxy vintage is significantly cheaper than standard or extended, provided that you play for a few years. Keeping up with standard for a few years can be ridiculously expensive, whereas 90% of your vintage playables will remain playable forever. I'm a student who's been playing vintage for 10 years and I find standard to be on the verge of prohibitively expensive, but I have absolutely no trouble keeping up with vintage and legacy. I have friends who hardly even own regular vintage cards and they still manage to get reasonably competitive decks together. Fortunately for them, (proxy) mox, land, dark confidant is one of the best plays in vintage.

[andrewpate]

@GUnit
In a 10-15 proxy meta, I fully agree that it is cheaper/easier to keep up with Vintage than Standard, especially since Wizards decided to start packing so much of the power in the rare slot.  I refrained from building a Standard deck this season for the first time since 2002 for this reason.

However, the shortage of Vintage players isn't really related to the price of keeping up with it.  The shortage is related to the average college student only wanting to spend so much money at a time on Magic and balking at the need to sink upwards of $500 to build an initial Vintage deck, especially given that booster drafts and trading stuff from the old Extended binder are very bad ways to acquire the needed cards.  Standard players can show up to a tournament, morning-of, saying, "I have to turn these Yavimaya Coasts into Shivan Reefs once I get there."  Try turning Tropical Islands into Volcanic Islands on the morning of a Vintage tournament.  Hell, try turning Underground Seas into Taigas; I certainly wouldn't show up relying on it because of the likelihood that nobody is going to have a spare 4xTaiga laying around.

I have an extremely deep collection, including playsets of all kinds of staples (Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, etc.).  I have Force of Wills.  I even have a Mox Sapphire.  But I have a friend who loans me dual lands before each tournament.  Without him, I would not be able to call myself a Vintage player, as I just don't feel like dumping half of my Extended rares to grab a single playset of blue duals from a dealer, nor do I feel like spending 3xTaking a Girl Out For Steak in exchange for the same.

It's the barrier of entry, and for many it's a brick wall.  My collection is almost certainly in the top 10% among tournament players without a dealer connection, and it's still a lot of work getting ready for every event.  Sure, I could drop a G and be done with that problem forever, but most PTQ players would rather spend that money over a couple of years staying competitive in multiple formats with better support and more frequent events (outside of a few key Vintage hotspots).

[Smmenen]

The price of duals question can be mitigated any number of ways.  If you are a flash pilot, I think you can honestly get away with using just a few shocklands.   Going to 17 and playing a duress and then winning on turn two shouldn't be that problematic.   Can it matter? Sure, but that doesn't mean it will.   

[iceage4life]

It's not just the price of duels, its the fact that they are:
1. Generally unavailable
2. Cannot be used in other formats (bar legacy)

We have this discussion here is Aussie all the time, and i'm a keen advocate of increasing the proxy count (currently @ 5) but people still complain about card availability, and not just moxen and semi power, simple stuff like FoW's, wastelands can be issues, becasue they invest in cards that cannot be use in PTQ tournaments. Price is a lesser issue.

I agree with coyoteuglly's points also.

Haven't read your article Steve (no premium) but good job anyways

Can't comment on Aussie but in the US duals are pretty easy to find.  Sure not everyone has a set of trops in their tade binder but stores that carry older stuff have duals and they are all over ebay/online stores.

[playkenny]

iceage4life: Man, I wish I played in the US, you guys got the cards and the tourneys!

Well if it ain't card availability, what is it...cost? I don't think so.

I find that people, espically new players, think Vintage costs lots becasue of power and its associated $500 price tags. But US plays 10 proxy as standard, so the cost of power when building a competitive deck should not really be an issue most of the time (i'm noting that there are exceptions). In standard, your forking out money for thoughtsieze, garruk, bitterblossum, goyf, mutavault which is what, the equivalent of a set of blue duels and some other staples?

So thats why I dont feel cost (esp in 10 proxy environments) that price is that big of an issue. But having said that, you need to be commited to Vintage as Vintage staples will see less play in other formats (e.g. FoW vs cards mentioned above) and its very hard to be commited to Vintage becasue there is a kind of "country club" feel to this format. Once again, I can only speak for Aussie, but I have been trying to get into vintage for ages...since 2000 i think (post mirridon). None of the Vintage "elites" even bother blinking an eye or lend a helping hand to you cos your a no body. If it wern't for certain individuals, I wouldn't even have a chance to talk about this. Add 5 proxy, and your really pushing it to build a competitive deck, even a "budget" deck, which again deters people from the format - "why pay money to get wrecked!". You may not think so, but once I started winning, you see and feel the difference, and its a major deterance to new players.

I'm very glad that Steve wrote this article (even if I dont have premium) cos it will get more players to play Vintage and at least gives them a bit of confidence that they wont go in and get smashed and can actually be competitive. I personally hope more established players actively go out and get players into the format.

[pierce]

If anything, thank you smemmen for your continuing attempts to increase the vintage ranks.

[maxfitzer]

Price has never really been an issue for me for type one. I've gone to maybe three type one tournaments, all with different decks, and had a bunch of fun. My collection consists of zero cards. Just borrowing stuff from people goes a long way. Most people that go to PTQs don't play type one just because they'd rather go to the PTQs. Type one tournaments are usually on Saturdays, I've found, sometimes falling on the same day as a PTQ. In order to get more people to play type one, you need to find people that play magic, but hate the PTQ scene. The issue with that is, from what I've found, the type one scene is just as unfriendly, unaccepting, and just generally as unpleasant as a PTQ. People that call themselves type one players take themselves way too seriously. I don't know. This is just all a roundabout way of saying, you're not really going to find many people to play type one. PTQs are supported better, are more exciting, and formats are constantly changing. I love type one, but I won't miss a PTQ for an event. Please don't get offended by what I'm saying.
-Max

[Moxlotus]

The issue with that is, from what I've found, the type one scene is just as unfriendly, unaccepting, and just generally as unpleasant as a PTQ. 

This saddens me.  One of the best things about Vintage, I have found, is its tournament scene is friendly and pleasant.  I hope your next type 1 events are more pleasant.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@maxfitzer
I'd really have to say when I first started playing t1 in the Milwaukee area, people were extremely friendly to me. They talked to me about archetype viability, vintage staples, deck construction criteria, directed me towards the drain. As well did some testing with me and cut me some really good deals on vintage playable cards (something I found out later). As far as comparing t1 to a ptq atmosphere, I can't be much help, but the t1 scene has always been pretty friendly and accepting.

[playkenny]

maxfitzer: I symphathise as I completly understand what you have/are going though as I did also. You highlighted what I ment by that "elitist" and "country club" feel you can get from the format. Also, I think yoru correct in saying that the lack of support does have an impact on Vintage.

hvndr3d y34r h3x, Moxlotus: perhpase you had friends which were already playing Type 1? or perhpase you were already accepted in the current vintage players eyes? I know this is a negative kind of post, but its what I went through, and from what Max has posted, it may not be all that uncommon. Now that i'm an established T1 player, yes, the scene is more friendly and pleasant, but it does make things difficult for new players.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@playkenny
As weird as it sounds everyone was a complete stranger. Its a shame that other new players had to go through some rough times, I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. Never the less, I try to pay it forward, I even went so far as to acquire an extra set of FOW to loan out to new players. From what I've seen, what keeps new players from coming to an event is a fear of accidentally breaking the rules and being embarrassed, I've had a lot of friend duck out on there first t1 event the morning of for this reason.

[playkenny]

hvndr3d y34r h3x: I'm happy to see you pay it forward man. I'm not saying it never happens - there is a guy here who loans 2 decks out to try to get new players, and nother guy who purposely brings two decks where ever he goes to introduce vintage to new players.  But this kind of practice is seldom. I also agree with your embarassment comment.

Sorry to hijack the thread so to speak, but Vintage is a big thing in Magic for me, and it really annoys me when people dismiss it without giving it a try and the current players don't help as much as they should. So again, thanks Steve (like for the 3rd time)

[tomjoad]

...what keeps new players from coming to an event is a fear of accidentally breaking the rules and being embarrassed, I've had a lot of friend duck out on there first t1 event the morning of for this reason.

I cannot imagine an experienced, PTQ-level player having this problem. I mean, if this Vintage event is the first "real" tournament ("real" being defined here as any tourney with a significant prize) then I can understand that. But once a player has slogged through 8 rounds of swiss at a few PTQ's then 5 rounds of Vintage should be no big deal. Sure, some of the card interactions are unique to t1, but having a cursory understanding of the rules clears up 95% of that. For the other 5%, that's why they hire judges.