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Author Topic: [Deck] ICBM Oath for Vintage 2.0  (Read 65039 times)
AngryPheldagrif
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« on: June 03, 2008, 12:26:24 am »

*I'd like to preface this with a slight disclaimer: I'm well aware that no one has any clue what the post-6/20 metagame will look like, but since it looks to be wide open I don't see any problem with throwing ideas around, especially since there is little enough competition these days that I feel team secrecy is largely irrelevant.*


ICBM Oath is a rather old design, with the rough concept being a heavy control shell reminescent of BBS, except with an Oath finish. Naturally, this also gave the deck the ability to operate as a fast combo deck on the odd chance you happened upon an Orchard, Mox, Oath in your opening hand.

Quote
ICBM Oath // Steel Battalion Redux 2k8:
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Null Rod
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Oath of Druids
3 Platinum Angel
1 Tinker

Obviously, there is a distinct lack of a sideboard. Aside from obvious statements about Leylines and such, trying to formulate a sideboard for an utterly unknown future metagame is an exercise in futility that I have no interest in presently pursuing. I mostly want to open up discussion on this archetype as a whole, so I'll just include a brief synopsis of some major questions.

Why Platinum Angel?
I do believe the days of simple 6/6 Hasted Angels are gone forever. No matter how radical the environmental changes, the attack phase simply will never be as relevant as it was years ago. Platinum Angel is a trusty and consistent answer, possessing the single most powerful ability ever printed. In addition, the card itself is incredibly versatile in the deck as opposed to pretty much any other creature. While regular Angels and Tyrants deploy only off the namesake enchantment, Platinum comes out off Tinker, a significant boon due to the additional inclusion of Mystical Tutor. Platinum Angel also has the lowest mana cost of the choices, enhanced heavily by the full complement of Mana Drains. The last and perhaps greatest advantage is that the ease in which your average blue deck deals with the Angel just plummeted. 3 less Merchant Scrolls means 3 less easy ways to fetch that Echoing Truth. At least making them waste a card disadvantage tutor or something more vital such as Demonic increases your odds of being able to defend against the bounce. Less Brainstorming also cuts their ability to randomly dig up an answer on the cheap.

How can Oath deal with creature clumps with only 1 Brainstorm?
Well that is why Platinum is so nice. While it doesn't pitch to FoW like Tyrant, it pitches to Thirst quite nicely and hardcasts with relative ease. It also eliminates the need for Gaea's Blessing. With 4 Thirsts and the lone Brainstorm, Angels aren't so much of a problem as they once were.

Why Oath now when it's been gone for so long?
Let me make one thing abundantly clear: the only reason I've neglected ICBM Oath for so long is because for the past months Tyrant Oath has been strictly better. Unfortunately, that deck just got the crap restricted out of it. As to why I'm bringing the deck back, well, look no further than Workshop. Workshop is poised to make a great comeback absent the twin menaces of first turn Flashes and abundant GushBonding. Workshop clearly lost nothing to the restrictions, and the suppression of blue can only help its case since we all know how great blue is for returning all artifacts to their owners' hands at the least opportune times. Ichorid is a serious menace for sure, but the ability to get a Platinum Angel on the board in short order gives the deck a major game 1 strength that much of the metagame lacks. As for a nice general strategic reason, the absence of Gush means that the brief era of horribly cheated mana bases is likely over. People will return to relying on single land drops per turn and full sets of Moxen. How better to exploit this than with the powerful dual attack of Null Rod + Chalice versus artifact mana, and Wasteland + Strip Mine versus lands?

Why is Oath a safe choice for completely unknown metagames?
One of Oath's crucial advantages has always been in its consistency. Not necessarily in play but in strategy. In sheer statistics it is one of the most overwhelming control decks ever designed. It packs a full suite of countermagic, artifact-based disruption, land destruction, and even a dabbling of discard. It's hard to be caught with your pants down with that kind of defense. And yet it holds a higher resiliency against the utterly unexpected such as R/G beats and TMWA simply by nature of being an Oath deck. Oath's advantage against Aggro and Hate strategies is every bit as relevant as it has been since long before Forbidden Orchard brought along the modern variations. While Oath may not have all the flash of Tendrils Combo, the overwhelming draw of Psychatog, or the raw brutality of Workshops, it remains a solid contender that seldom leaves a competent pilot in the 0-2 bracket.



Feel free to discuss, question, or critique. I'll be around to answer anything. My main goal is simply to start getting ideas thrown around about where the metagame goes from here.
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bluemage55
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2008, 12:45:43 am »

Having never been particularly fond of Oath, I have not had a significant amount of experience piloting ICBM Oath.  I have several questions on specific card choices and their uses:

Thirst for Knowledge
Thirst is definitely likely to be the draw engine of choice in Vintage 2.0.  The ability to pitch dead or conditional cards replaces one of the key functions of Brainstorm nicely, on top of solid card drawing.  Not really a question, just kudos to its usage.

Chalice of the Void
How is Chalice generally played?  Do you simply slap down a Chalice at 0 on the play to hedge against moxen and pitch future Chalices to Thirst, or do you also ever use Chalice at 1, 2, or maybe even 3?

Null Rod
Keeping in mind that ICBM Oath runs 6 artifact mana sources as well (and less important, Mishra's Workshop), does Null Rod serve primarily as a conditional card where you decide whether to use it or pitch it depending on the board state?

Mishra's Factory
What function do the factories serve?  Chump blockers?  Extra damage to speed along Platz kills?  Are they really worth the damage to the mana base? 

I worry that with only 12 blue-producing lands, you could be in for trouble against opposing Wastelands.

Blue Cards
You only have 19 blue cards in here.  Is that sufficient to reliably have a card to pitch to Force of Will, given that Brainstorm x4 is no longer there to assist?

Merchant Scroll
Are there just too many 2 drops for Scroll x1 to work?  After all, it's a great tutor that fetches Ancestral Recall, counters, Chain of Vapor, and Mystical Tutor.

Basic Islands
No basic islands to defend against first turn Wastelands?  These would go in for the Factories above.

Tolarian Academy
With so many cheap artifacts, Academy can be used to power out a Platz sitting in your hand.  Why not Academy?

Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal works every bit as well as the Pearl to get a turn 1 Oath out, but also serves to get turn 1 Drain online.  Why Pearl over Petal?

Yawgmoth's Will + Krosan Reclamation
Any particular reason this usually auto-include card (and it's support) is not present?  Is there simply too much conflict with Chalice for 0?

Crucible of Worlds
Given the presensce of Strip Mine, Wasteland x2, and Mishra's Workshop x2, Crucible might be a powerful bomb in this deck to either lock down the oponent (synergy with Chalice/Null Rod here), recur a blocker, or thin out your deck and reinforce your mana base.  It also synergizes with Oath as there's a good chance Strip Mine and Wasteland will be nicely put into your graveyard for you.  Lastly, it can be pitched to Thirst if not needed. 

Has ICBM considered Crucible x1 or Crucible x2 as an inclusion (particularly over Null Rod, given its conditional usage)?  Is it perhaps too slow given the Oath finish?

Pact of Negation
There were some Platz Oath decks running Pact, which is pretty much self-explanatory.  Any thoughts on their inclusion?

Removal
In a world without Merchant Scroll, is a single copy of Chain of Vapor really sufficient?  Also, is Chain of Vapor over Echoing Truth or Repeal ideal given that your opponent might be willing to sac a land to bounce your Platz, costing you time?

Are there other removal spells you might consider, particularly artifact ones such as Tormod's Crypt and Engineered Explosives as they can be pitched?

Have you considered Cunning Wish as another tutor for removal?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 02:05:53 am by bluemage55 » Logged
meadbert
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2008, 09:54:04 am »

Blue Cards
You only have 19 blue cards in here.  Is that sufficient to reliably have a card to pitch to Force of Will, given that Brainstorm x4 is no longer there to assist?
u considered Cunning Wish as another tutor for removal?

I have seen this thought posted by many people in many places and it is mathematically misleading.  Running 19 blue cards is not riskier or less risky with or without Brainstorm.  Why?  You still have 19 blue cards either way.  Although Brainstorm can find a blue card, keep in mind that since you still have 19 blue cards in your list you replaced Brainstorm with a blue card.  Thus, by definition if you would have had Brainstorm in your hand you already do have a blue card in your hand.  Furthermore, you presumably replaced Brainstorm with some of the worsts cards in your deck.  Thus, you by definition if you would have had Brainstorm then you do have a blue card that is one of the worst in your deck.  This card is idea for pitching to Force of Will.

Now, 19 cards has always been tolerable but risky for Force.  Certainly, there is a much greater risk of running out of blue cards when you drop from 22 to 19 blue cards.  I would just like to point out Brainstorm did not make it any easier/harder for decks with 19 blue cards to find blue cards.

On a different note, would Intuition->(Bazaar, Loam, Strip) be worth running in ICBM Oath?  Note that Inuition also can find Oath, or Factores or Orchard.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2008, 09:58:39 am »

Unfortunately for ICBM, your Oath deck loses to mine Smile
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35893.0

1) In terms of Orchard war, I have Bazaars to dig up more.
2) TTT trumps Platz every day.
3) Chalice and Null Rod are dead draws against me.
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bluemage55
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2008, 10:03:05 am »

Unfortunately for ICBM, your Oath deck loses to mine Smile

Could you post said list for comparison?
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Smmenen
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2008, 10:06:31 am »

Unfortunately for ICBM, your Oath deck loses to mine Smile

Could you post said list for comparison?

See link.  Click it. 
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2008, 10:11:32 am »

@ blue mage

chalice is pretty meta Dependant, I'd imagine one is still a good call, it turns off welders, and in my testing with platz in icbm oath shells, welder can be a pretty big problem.

mishra's factory is extremely versatile card. In the days when icbm oath was on top, factory brought me about as many wins as oath did. Between null rod and chalice (this is pretty significant mana denial), when the game stalls out,factory is extremely significant. Its also great against fish, wish will be making a comeback. It opens up a lot of sb options as well.

19 blue cards. I've never had a problem with this number either. typicaly people will tell you 18+ but I've heard as low as 16. I'd still with 18

merchant scroll. Honest, I can imagine a game state where you'd be happy to see scroll in your hand with this deck, aside from times where your already winning, or looking for a fow pitch.

basic lands: resolving a 2 cc spell wins you the game, 2 fetch lands gets you there, or a single mox + land (obviously don't turn off your moxen was faced with strip lock). Honestly, I've played this deck a lot of shop heavy metas, and factory+ wastes give you a huge edge.

Lotus petal has always been a waste of space every time I've tested it in this shell, I'd almost always have a better card in my hand, like lands.

yawg's will: this deck has a really good control package, but also tends to lock up the bored with chalices and things. Its just not as good as it was in tyrant oath. It just doesn't seem optimal.

crucible of worlds: this deck commonly sb'd loam in the past. Its just cheaper, and in additions you can use it to dig for couple of factories and wastes (as well as orchards in the mirror).

pact of negation: you can;t cut drain for this card, because it gets plats on line. I'd imagine getting pact on line would be hard, and wipe away would be coming back.

I'm a little curious about chain myself
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 12:19:54 am by hvndr3d y34r h3x » Logged

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bluemage55
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2008, 10:20:43 am »

See link.  Click it. 

That would require Premium access though.   Sad
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Smmenen
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2008, 10:22:53 am »

The decklists are free (at least they should be).  Click the link to the decklist.  I linked it. 
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2008, 10:24:19 am »

I used to have ICBM Oath as part of my testing gauntlet. I think it is a solid deck and has the potential to become a contender again. I think the win condition is pitifully slow and vulnerable, but perhaps this is a necessary evil. I'm not entirely convinced that Akroma/Razia are dated options, simply based on their superior strength as finishers. Platz is brutal against Welders and the clock is slow enough to allow your opponent to find answers. I could be wrong, but it seems that since a higher premium is going to be placed on the attack step in the upcoming metagame, that the Angel suite may be superior.
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2008, 10:25:24 am »

The decklists are free (at least they should be).  Click the link to the decklist.  I linked it. 

The decklist you linked wasn't free, but thank you kind sir for posting the list.
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2008, 11:04:41 am »

Hopefully no one gets mad at me <.<

 Bazaar Oath
Suggested by Stephen Menendian on 2008-06-08 as a potential deck for Vintage
As written about in http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15964.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Tormod's Crypt

Creatures
3 Tidespout Tyrant

Enchantments
4 Oath Of Druids

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brain Freeze
1 Brainstorm
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Fire / Ice
1 Flash Of Insight
4 Force Of Will
1 Gush
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
4 Deep Analysis
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
1 Imperial Seal
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
2 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea

Legality:
This deck is Vintage-legal.
 
 *****************************************

Something that I agree with fully is that you should include bazaars if at all possible.  Your purpose is as a control deck for sure, so crafting your hand is paramount, but the creature is the reason the majority of your control becomes above average.  With platz you can use pacts that would otherwise kill you, with tyrant you control everything about your opponent's board position.  Getting to oath in a timely manner is required to maintain control in my opinion.
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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2008, 10:11:15 pm »

Wow, where to begin. Let me see if I can cover things in one fell swoop.

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Chalice of the Void
How is Chalice generally played?  Do you simply slap down a Chalice at 0 on the play to hedge against moxen and pitch future Chalices to Thirst, or do you also ever use Chalice at 1, 2, or maybe even 3?

Chalice for 0 gets dumped down on the play more often than not, while dropping for 1 to cut off things like Welders, Duress-effects, Spell Snare, etc. Chalice for 1 is also a major anti-Ichorid move, cutting off their ability to deal with Platinum Angel (in addition to post-board Leyline) and vitally cutting off Cabal Therapy. Chalice for 2 is a rarer play that comes down in the mirror to beat Smmenen because my deck is just awesome like that. Higher numbers generally get cast off Drain mana against Shop decks to cut off their more crucial threats.

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Null Rod
Keeping in mind that ICBM Oath runs 6 artifact mana sources as well (and less important, Mishra's Workshop), does Null Rod serve primarily as a conditional card where you decide whether to use it or pitch it depending on the board state?

Null Rod does in fact end up as Thirst fodder quite often, generally depending on if you've cut off their Moxen with a Chalice. Null Rod is a long-neglected lock component that I see coming back in relevancy now that people are back to one land drop per turn. It also provides you with a much-needed catch-all against Belcher.

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Mishra's Factory
What function do the factories serve?  Chump blockers?  Extra damage to speed along Platz kills?  Are they really worth the damage to the mana base?

I worry that with only 12 blue-producing lands, you could be in for trouble against opposing Wastelands.

Maybe they're a holdover from a long-gone era, but they are much better than given credit for. Factory singlehandedly holds off aggro and goblin creatures aside from Tarmogoyf, and even trades with a Juggernaut. That being said, a faster metagame would render them inefficient and likely cut for the third Waste and an extra blue source.

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Blue Cards
You only have 19 blue cards in here.  Is that sufficient to reliably have a card to pitch to Force of Will, given that Brainstorm x4 is no longer there to assist?

Never been a problem before in my experience.

Quote
Merchant Scroll
Are there just too many 2 drops for Scroll x1 to work?  After all, it's a great tutor that fetches Ancestral Recall, counters, Chain of Vapor, and Mystical Tutor.

Scroll tends to be less efficient with the limited options and is strictly worse than the other 3 tutors. It's more a question that I don't need a fourth tutor than anything against the card itself.

Quote
Basic Islands
No basic islands to defend against first turn Wastelands?  These would go in for the Factories above.

Depending on the post 6/20 metagame, you may very well be correct.

Quote
Tolarian Academy
With so many cheap artifacts, Academy can be used to power out a Platz sitting in your hand.  Why not Academy?

Rarely do you sit on more than a couple artifacts at any time, and you want to be pitching your extra to Thirst. Academy tends to be a Waste-able Island that doesn't tap for a second color.

Quote
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal works every bit as well as the Pearl to get a turn 1 Oath out, but also serves to get turn 1 Drain online.  Why Pearl over Petal?

Simply because you have to value the permanency of Pearl over the possibility of turn 1 Drain. You need extra sources over the course of the game to cast bigger Chalices, Thirsts, and possibly Angels. In addition, Petal doesn't work very well with Tinker which tends to be relevant more often than not.

Quote
Yawgmoth's Will + Krosan Reclamation
Any particular reason this usually auto-include card (and it's support) is not present?  Is there simply too much conflict with Chalice for 0?

For Will, same reason the deck never ran it. You simply can't afford to have it in the opening hand in a deck like this. Also, there is absolutely nothing in the list that really serves to abuse it. Krosan Rec (and the Blessing that Oath oft runs) is simply not needed because Platinum means you never worry about decking. Generally you're not going to run out of Angels with 3.

Quote
Crucible of Worlds
Given the presensce of Strip Mine, Wasteland x2, and Mishra's Workshop x2, Crucible might be a powerful bomb in this deck to either lock down the oponent (synergy with Chalice/Null Rod here), recur a blocker, or thin out your deck and reinforce your mana base.  It also synergizes with Oath as there's a good chance Strip Mine and Wasteland will be nicely put into your graveyard for you.  Lastly, it can be pitched to Thirst if not needed.

The deck actually prefers Life from the Loam, which I cut out of the maindeck because I believe the new metagame will simply be too fast for it. At very least it will be a sideboard slot because of how thoroughly it disrupts Stax and any sort of mirror. Again, if the metagame turns out slower than expected then it likely will find its way back in.

Quote
Pact of Negation
There were some Platz Oath decks running Pact, which is pretty much self-explanatory.  Any thoughts on their inclusion?

Great card, but generally you need to counter things first, resolve Oath later, and it is a dead card in any hand not containing Oath or Tinker. Also, Chalice for 0 interferes.

Quote
Removal
In a world without Merchant Scroll, is a single copy of Chain of Vapor really sufficient?  Also, is Chain of Vapor over Echoing Truth or Repeal ideal given that your opponent might be willing to sac a land to bounce your Platz, costing you time?

You still have 3 tutors, and Chain of Vapor is really just in there as a random out that can safely bounce Chalice for 2. If you're casting Chain with an Angel out, generally it's to remove their own Platinum Angel, at which point you simply Oath up another one. Echoing Truth kinda doesn't work if you have 3 out and they have 1. Repeal cannot realistically bounce Plats or a lot of other threats so there's no reason to run it.

Quote
On a different note, would Intuition->(Bazaar, Loam, Strip) be worth running in ICBM Oath?  Note that Inuition also can find Oath, or Factores or Orchard.

Intuition is nice, but it really is a painful way to find 4-ofs, and Loam gets tutored up easily enough. I'll address Bazaar when I address Smmenen's post.

Quote
I used to have ICBM Oath as part of my testing gauntlet. I think it is a solid deck and has the potential to become a contender again. I think the win condition is pitifully slow and vulnerable, but perhaps this is a necessary evil. I'm not entirely convinced that Akroma/Razia are dated options, simply based on their superior strength as finishers. Platz is brutal against Welders and the clock is slow enough to allow your opponent to find answers. I could be wrong, but it seems that since a higher premium is going to be placed on the attack step in the upcoming metagame, that the Angel suite may be superior.

If I was worried about things like that I'd run Tidespouts over Akroma/Razia in any case. In any new metagame there simply won't be the same conditions that made the old Angels powerful ever again. You either need board control in Tidespout or ability-to-win control in Platinum. There simply isn't a grey area anymore. Welder is just one card, and at bare minimum I have Chalice and counters to deal with them, as well as my usual assortment of post-board options. Again, we have no idea how prevalent Welder may be, and that could force the deck to adopt a different creature or not. We shall see.

Quote
Unfortunately for ICBM, your Oath deck loses to mine Smile
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35893.0

1) In terms of Orchard war, I have Bazaars to dig up more.
2) TTT trumps Platz every day.
3) Chalice and Null Rod are dead draws against me.

1) And I have Wastes and an extra land tutor, plus Tinker to trump the entire war altogether.
2) Angel hardcasts easier and comes out via Tinker as well as Oaths.
3) I can always pitch them to Thirst, plus I can use Chalice @ 2 and beat you to death with Factory or Tinker. You have several dead cards as well, and an equal number of ways to pitch them. Mine cost mana, sure, but yours cost land drops, making Chalice for 0 and even Null Rod all the more potent against you. You realize
that your mana is light enough that a well placed Wasteland and Mox-disabler could potentially cripple you. Sure Bazaar digs, but you only have so many Islands. And Deep Analysis is useless when you don't have 1U laying around to use. Don't worry about the Orchard war. Worry about me beating you to death with Factories and spirit tokens while I simply keep Oath off the table entirely.

I want to make a general note on the Bazaar engine. Sure it looks cute, but I really wonder why you would put it in Oath of all decks, Steve. Oath is horribly land-drop dependent to the point where I strongly considered adding Fastbond into the main even without Gush or any other synergy. Opening with Bazaar largely cuts off your ability to make the turn 1 plays Oath depends on to stay alive, eg; Duress or Oath. My advice would be at bare minimum to add Lotus Petal. You have DA to make up for the card disadvantage and it works so well with first turn Bazaar that I have no idea why it wouldn't make the cut in your list.
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2008, 12:18:37 am »

Thank you for the illuminating responses.  I have one more question if you don't mind:

Scroll tends to be less efficient with the limited options and is strictly worse than the other 3 tutors. It's more a question that I don't need a fourth tutor than anything against the card itself.

Smmenen feels the need to both run a Scroll and Seal over your list.  What in particular about your list makes it need the tutors less?
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2008, 12:25:33 am »

Thank you for the illuminating responses.  I have one more question if you don't mind:

Scroll tends to be less efficient with the limited options and is strictly worse than the other 3 tutors. It's more a question that I don't need a fourth tutor than anything against the card itself.

Smmenen feels the need to both run a Scroll and Seal over your list.  What in particular about your list makes it need the tutors less?

I run an extra way to pump out an Angel (Tinker), and I have a better control package. The deck never ran Merchant Scroll as a 4-of, so I see no reason to wedge them in now. Steve can run Scroll because he has more targets than I do. Also, I see no need to add another card disadvantage tutor when the deck is already tight. Considering most of the relevant cards are present in multiples, 3 tutors and a land tutor are plenty.
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2008, 12:27:24 am »

Any possibility we could have you and Smmennen test your lists against each other and post the MWS log here?   Very Happy
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2008, 12:44:56 am »

Any possibility we could have you and Smmennen test your lists against each other and post the MWS log here?   Very Happy

I don't do MWS so I'm sorry to say that matchup isn't likely to occur any time soon. Not that I'm denying how epic an Oath mirror between (arguably) the best Oath player in Vintage history versus the god of blue itself Steve Menendian would be. Maybe for the Vintage Worlds it'll happen.
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2008, 12:47:59 am »

Oath mirrors are some of the more tedious abortions I've ever had the displeasure of performing.

That said, they function way differently. Menendians is very aggressive. Dans is very control oriented, with a combo-blow out element. Menendian tries to abuse Oath and Bazaar, then steal the win. Meanwhile Dan uses it to first not lose, then win. It's comparing apples to oranges, almost like Workshop Aggro to Stax. To get a feel for which is more suitable to the metagame, a metagame has to first be formed.

I would caution anymore discussion directly towards Menendians list in this thread, as it's certainly off topic.
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« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2008, 08:05:31 pm »

Has anyone thought about guile as a guy in the more control build?  It seems like it may be falling under the trying to do to many cool things, but 6/6 that is basically unblockable in a control shell with 4x FoW 4x Mana Leak 4x Pick your choice of third counter (spell snare, mana drain, rune snag etc).
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« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 08:30:38 pm »

Has anyone thought about guile as a guy in the more control build?  It seems like it may be falling under the trying to do to many cool things, but 6/6 that is basically unblockable in a control shell with 4x FoW 4x Mana Leak 4x Pick your choice of third counter (spell snare, mana drain, rune snag etc).

Countering spells gets the job done just fine. You have no need nor want to be stealing spells like that. Guile also gets chumped if you have to give them 3 tokens.
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« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2008, 04:09:55 pm »

So any updates from testing?

My own MWS results are pretty inconclusive at the moment.  I went with the same MD and a typical SB for anti-Shop, Ich, Storm, etc.  I've found that I really still do like COTV+Rods in Oath (now that Gush-Bond Oath is dead).  But, getting Duressed early is a problem if I can't get COTV for 1 out.

I do like Platz at the moment.  But, my sense is that I'm going to be playing against Welders all day long.  It seems that every deck is trying to fit that nasty Goblin in somewhere.

I do miss the Yawg Will + Krosan combo.  But, I agree it doesn't work well here.

The only other change I'm considering is -2 Factories for +2 Islands.  Sometimes there is just too many colorless draws.  Also, I'm concerned about facing a lot of non-basic hate including Magus of the Moon.
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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2008, 11:59:25 pm »

@ nehptis,
If your worried about magus of the moon, I'd recommend sbing pyroclasm. I've had a lot of success with it. You have 4x orchard+mox+lots to cast it, in addition to crop rotation for orchard. It'll also be useful against fish and goblins as well.
I've also had a few issues with welder. Right now I'm sbing a 2x dark blast, occasionally I've been wishing it was smother.
Honestly, I've been very happy with the factories, The deck seems to have a lot of use for colorless mana(thirst, chalice, oath, platz, the other, factory). Factory has been good against shop and fish. On the play it turns of goblin lackey (sometimes they can race you).

I also have a few questions for you guys.
I was wondering if you guys thought sbing 2x SSS was correct? I'm not sure if my testing is accurate enough to warrant precautions against: gem palm, sting scourger, water fount bouncer, shattering spree, and rack and ruin (this thing as been pretty huge against this particular oath variant). I left out stp because chalice at 1 hits that and welder, although I'm not sure that's as strong of a play as it once was, any one have any numbers/thoughts on that?
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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2008, 08:12:26 am »

Smother might be a better call over Blast.

SSS is definitely in my board.  It still is a beating against a lot of annoying bounce/aggro decks.  Also, it can't be targeted by Duplicant.  I run 2 x SSS since I can no longer run Blazing Archon.  He's just too dead of a draw without 4 x Brainstorm.  At least SSS can be cast or pitched to FOW.

It's funny though every time I Oath up Platz in testing I find myself calculating how fast I could have won with Razia or Akroma or even try and figure out of I could control the Board if the Angel had been a Tyrant instead.  But, then inevitably I convince myself that a Razia / Akroma in hand is very bad in Vintage 2.0.

The Jury's still out though in my book on Platz vs. Tyrant + Triskev.  I don't think I'd run the BFreeze version again w/o a Gush-Bond engine.  But, Triskev is hardcastable, pitches to Thirst and allows me to play Yawgwill+Krosan+Flash of Insight.  There is some synergy with Tyrant + COTV.  I just need to make sure that my Rods aren't in the way of my Triskev.  It shouldn't be an issue though.  Also, the win-now factor of Tyrant+Triskev is very attractive.  Lastly, Tyrant allows me to SB in ETW which is always a good back-up plan for decks that could generate some decent amount of Storm.
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« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2008, 11:14:22 am »

the thing I like about platz is that it posses two problems for the opponent.  It'll eventually kill them, and they have to deal with this thing if they plan on winning (after oath activation, combo tends to shrug off the 6 dmg and combo your face). With platz on the table, there is less of the bored that you do need to worry about, just removal type things, So I'm really OK with platz compared to other oathables right now. You just have to play a pretty tight control game, I'm looking at throwing in a misd to help out when I'm at 0, or to snag a deep analysis or two.

If you ran they tyrant/vus split, I think you'd have to cut chalice, and null rod would be come increasingly bad. also, I'm not sure if you can generate enough storm at the appropriate time to support etw.
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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2008, 05:13:41 pm »

I'm just going to add one point about the Intuition/LiTL question.

I can't imagine running an Oath deck without Intuition.  Given the deck's mission, who wouldn't want a card that reads, "for 2U, tutor up Oath of Druids at end of turn."  Include Life from the Loam?  Yes, definitely.  As an Intuition target, it's synergistic with Academy (which should be here), Orchard wars, mana screw, recurring chump blockers (Factory), and card advantage (Bazaar or Library of Alexandria--I prefer LoA).  Good luck.  FYI, a card like Academy Ruins can help fill the Gaea's Blessing role of helping you not deck yourself.  As an Intuiton/LiTL target, it also gives you an opportunity to recur Engineered Explosives indefinitely. 
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2008, 09:32:59 am »

Here's what I've been considering for enhancements.  But, haven't had time to test these yet.

-1 USea
-1 Wasteland
+2 Island

-2 Thoughtseize
+2 Daze

I really want some Basic Islands in the MD.  And cutting a Sea and a Wasteland seemed like the best choices.  However, in doing so I felt that Daze would be a better fit for the mana base than Thoughtseize.  Plus, Daze has nice synergy with the deck's mana denial plan.

Is there an optimal or minimum Island count needed to support 2 x Daze?

Am I significantly impacting the mana denial plan by going from 3 Strip effects down to only 2?

I'm expecting a local meta of mostly Fish, Shops and Slaver.  Peppered with Ich, Storm, Magus.  So, I'm thinking of going with this SB:

SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Smother
SB: 2 Duress / Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Oxidize
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Simic Sky Swallower
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2008, 12:27:29 pm »

@nehptis
I'm really digging the waste effects in the long match up, and to a lesser extent ichorid. I've always felt that wasteland was a great follow up to a chalice play as well. Three always seemed like the right number to me.
mind if I ask why you want to include more basic main deck? In all my testing, I haven't had an issue with it. I'm currently running 4x fetch 3 strip effect, 2x factory, 2x trop, 3x u sea, and orchards
I'm also pretty sure a duress effect is going to be more playable/effective then a daze the majority of the time. I've tested daze in a few builds, and I am rarely able to play it with out my opponent being able to just blatantly play  {1}.
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2008, 01:29:40 pm »

@nehptis
I'm really digging the waste effects in the long match up

Johnny Boy, any long player worth a damn (if they play the right list) will play around wastelands all day.   I'm much more afraid of blue mana for drain when I play long than you dropping a wasteland.
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2008, 01:41:03 pm »

@100:
3 Waste effects is what I've also always felt was the right #.  That's why I don't think cutting 1 is going to work.

My concern with no-basics MD is this scenario which seems to come up often enough to be annoying.  And I'm expecting tons of Fish / SS / Naught type decks.  Reason is, in an unknown meta it seems like players migrate to those types of decks until Tier 1 decks are established and then begin to outperform Fish type decks....but I digress...

T1: Drop Sea / Trop (No Duress Effect in hand)

Opponent Wastes It

T2: Drop Fetchland / Crack it and Opponent Stifles it.  Or opponent Drops a Sphere/Thorn.  Either way, if I have FOW then I'm OK.  If I have no FOW then I'm screwed.  The Stifle guy is up 1 land to my 0.  Or the Shop guy has momentum since I am at 1 land and facing a Sphere into Turn 3.

Am I being overly conservative / concerned?
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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2008, 02:00:31 pm »

Sorry I've neglected this thread for awhile, I've been busy looking for work and other summer stuff. I have a newly updated list that reflects both a better idea of the the coming metagame, and also a good deal of testing.

In regards to the Long matchup, this is your free pass to the winner's bracket. I cannot even begin to describe how lopsided it is in Oath's favor. Losing Brainstorm hurts Long drastically more than it hurts Oath. It removes Long's ability to reliably dig for extra mana and to have relevant spells that cost 1. There is no good way for Long to play around Oath's strategies. All-in with draw-7s just walks into a counter. Sitting back and accumulating resources is a losing proposition versus Chalice/Strips/Thoughtseizes. A quick Empty for 3-4 loses to a quick Oath. Mass bounce such as Rebuild and Hurkyl's is largely uncastable against Oath's mana disruption and is vulnerable to being Thoughtseized at an inopportune time. Oversideboarding in basic Islands and a load of bounce effects does little except dilute the threats and further decrease Long's ability to put pressure on the Oath player.

In short, Oath is the perfect storm against Long. The weaknesses Long already had in the matchup are so heavily exacerbated by the loss of Brainstorm that Oath doesn't even need to sideboard in the matchup. It's all already there.

As for Daze, it has horrible synergy with Forbidden Orchard and Wasteland. Do not run it. Thoughtseize gives you valuable information in the control mirror.

My current list, for reference:
Quote
ICBM Oath 2k8 redux v.2.X:

4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle OR Null Rod
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Oath of Druids
2 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Gaea's Blessing

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Life from the Loam
2 Duress
3 Oxidize
1 Pithing Needle
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