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Author Topic: [Deck] Post Brainstorm Restriction Slaver  (Read 12093 times)
MMD
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« on: June 03, 2008, 09:03:44 am »

As there are more than enough topics where people cry about the restriction of Brainstorm we should better think about the post Brainstorm era and try to define the new metagame together.
 
Creating new decks will certainly take some time but I immediately started to rebuild my old and beloved Slaver list as I won my first tournament with this archetype.
 
With the restriction of Brainstorm as the best unrestricted draw and library/hand manipulation spell, other under played cards will now get more attention (again).
 
I started to examine Slaver as possible "replacements" were already part of the deck OR suit in a Slaver deck very well. 

At first I would like to post my initial list:
 
PBR Slaver a.k.a. Post Brainstorm Restriction Slaver

3   Flooded Strand
3   Island
1   Library of Alexandria
3   Polluted Delta
1   Tolarian Academy
4   Underground Sea
2   Volcanic Island

1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Sol Ring
   
4   Dark Confidant
2   Goblin Welder
1   Platinum Angel
1   Sundering Titan
   
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Brainstorm
1   Demonic Tutor
3   Duress
4   Force of Will
1   Gifts Ungiven
3   Mana Drain
1   Merchant Scroll
1   Mindslaver
1   Mystical Tutor
3   Sensei, Divining Top
4   Thirst for Knowledge
1   Time Walk
1   Tinker
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Yawgmoth's Will
   
1   REB
1   Pyroblast
1   Duress
2   Tormodīs Crypt
1   Pithing Needle
1   Gorilla Shaman
3   Yixlid Jailer
2   Rack and Ruin
1   Hurkylīs Recall
1   Triskelion
1   Duplicant
 
New cards (only most important aspects):

Dark Confidant - One of the best draw engines at the moment. Also one of the best turn one drops Vintage can offer. His casting cost also suits very well into a Slaver hull. Bob also improves the Workshop and Control matchup.

Sensei, Divining Top - Another strong first turn drop. Manipulates the library. Hides important cards. Feeds Goblin Welder and Thirst. Mini Combo with Bob and Fetchies. Isnīt this enough?
 
The other cards are a matter of Taste. You can certainly exchange cards like Platinum Angel, Sundering Titan, Darksteel Collosus, Triskelion, Triskelavus, Duplicant, Mindslaver, Gifts Ungiven, Intuition, Merchant Scroll, Mystical Tutor, Echoing Truth, Fire/Ice, Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Crucible of the Worlds, Ponder, Gush, Painter, Grindstone, Gorilla Shaman,.....and many more, depending on your play style and meta game.
 
For the initial deck discussion I choose a straight build without bounce, creature removal and Wishes. Depending on the meta this has to be adjusted.
 
I have increased the land count without increasing the overall amount of mana as I think that Dark Confidant/Sensei will provide enough lands and I dislike Mana Crypt/Mana Vault in this build. Because of the inclusion of Sensei the number of artifacts has not decreased in reference to common builds.
 
The current 17/7 mana base should be enough as Dark Confidants and Sensei should smooth out your draws. Also the average casting cost of this build is low enough to support "only" 24 mana sources and four Bobīs.
 
I have also thought to have Painter/Grindstone in this deck and started with a 4/1, then 3/1 and 1/1 configuration. But in the end I felt that Painter without Blasts is not good enough for this deck and I donīt want to have Blasts maindeck at the moment.
 
Null Rod worries me a bit, so I will try to squeeze a Gorilla Shaman into the deck.
 
Looking forward to your comments.
 
Bjoern
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 03:59:10 pm by MMD » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2008, 10:36:00 am »

I really think you need a Crypt main. Having maindeck graveyard hate is going to be huge in the new metagame.
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2008, 04:05:29 pm »

Possible, but I am not a friend of "dead cards" in the maindeck, also my meta is not Dredge infested which can certainly change after the restrictions. Time will tell.

I also thought about a lonely Counterbalance as you already have three Senseiīs. I need to do some testing to tune the deck.
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2008, 04:49:15 pm »

Shockwave is very correct. Tormod's Crypt needs to go maindeck.

Also, Dark Confidant resulted in self-destruction far too often when I tried him in past builds of Control Slaver. Try Night's Whisper instead.
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2008, 07:29:36 pm »

Shockwave is very correct. Tormod's Crypt needs to go maindeck.

Also, Dark Confidant resulted in self-destruction far too often when I tried him in past builds of Control Slaver. Try Night's Whisper instead.

Do you think that perhaps since the format has slowed down that Dark Confidant might be a better call? Perhaps by itself it is a risky proposition, but if you can squeeze in a few tops to replace those lost Brainstorm ... what do you think?
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2008, 10:02:40 pm »

Perhaps Dark Confidant might be a worthwhile card. I won't flat-out say that it won't be any good. However, he presents a few problems. He is slow in an already slow deck, and is a non-blue card in a deck that could always use more blue. He is not unlikely to kill you devoid of a top. But should you have a Top, as Hi-Val pointed out long ago, then Welder turns into a draw engine anyway. All together, Confidant is fairly low on the list of potential draw engines that I would test in Control Slaver. I might be surprised, and could be wrong, but he seems an unlikely card to be the optional secondary draw engine in the deck.
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2008, 09:00:37 am »

Personally, I think Dark Confidant is suicide in CS. There are just too many high CC'd cards out there in this deck.

For now, the only changes I'm planning on making are -3 BS +1 Underground Sea +2 Duress.

I have a very non-convential slaver build to begin with. But I would much rather see a Duress T1 to rip them than see a SDT on turn 1.  I still have a good number of draw and deck manipulation.
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2008, 09:29:48 am »

I donīt see the problem of high CC on paper. The average CC is 1.6. Sure, you can hit one of the Forces or Robots but I think that you can have SDT online quite fast as a 3off with all the tutors and draw spells.

Here in Europe there were a lot of TPS/Gifts decks in the past which included at least three Bobīs and they also played cards like Minds Desire, Memory Jar, Forces and even DSC, but certainly no SDT. Sure TPS has a faster clock, but when you can resolve Sensei you shouldnīt have problems to reduce the damage to <1 and have a faster clock yourself.

I also donīt think that Bob is too slow for the new meta. I played him during the last two monthīs and rarely lost a match with him on the table. You can hardly loose a game if SDT and Bob is in play for 2-3 turns. The only important requirement is that you either disrupt your oponent or keep him busy with your own threats.



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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2008, 11:41:06 am »

I'm not sure if the deck needs any more draw aside replacing some Brainstorms with tops.  The Slaver builds with trinket mage have been successful and considering your gonna have tops and crypts, he sounds like a good addition. 
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 10:12:02 am »

I seriously think that CS can become tier 1 right now, so I have been playtesting it lately. (formerly a Landstill, Ponder Long Player pre- BS restriction)
My draw engines,  aside from tfk, AR, and FoF, are being well supplemented by sensei's divining top. I never really gave much attention to other techs like portent, omen, mystic speculation, opt, etc. SDT is good enough. I'm using 3 SDTs and 6 fetches, tinker, merchant scroll, mystical tutor, - that's almost 10 shuffle effects. And it can support maybe a counterbalance post board.

@ sextiger- Maybe you can drop the mages. I'm testing out Aeon Chronicler in my build. It wasn't able to fit into CS or any vintage build for the longest time because it_is_too_slow.
But now, since the format just became slower, I'm testing him out. 1st and foremost, he is blue(pithes to FoW). 2nd, he is a drain mana dump, 3rd, an uncounterable drawer, 4th an added threat to the deck, usually a 7/7 creature and can just go nuts with LoA or if you and you're opponent are in topdeck mode, drawing him is always great. There were games when he was 11/11 and was just too overwhelming to deal with. The opponent usually gets into the dilemma of bouncing him or not, cause doing so late game, might just give you the game cause you will suspend him again and draw the nuts.

@ MMD, yeah tormod's crypt should be in the main. Thumbs down to Bob in this build. My 2 cents.
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2008, 08:29:17 pm »

It seems like there is alot of wheel reinvention in this thread.

I'm also puzzled why Rich would be so eager to add another draw engine, given that he was so successful with Slaver in the pre-Gifts and pre-Gush metagame.   
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2008, 08:56:32 pm »

It seems like there is alot of wheel reinvention in this thread.

I'm also puzzled why Rich would be so eager to add another draw engine, given that he was so successful with Slaver in the pre-Gifts and pre-Gush metagame.   

Well, if card advantage makes a comeback, it makes sense that beefing up the draw engine a little will win more games. It's hard to say what the correct build or options are since there is no current metagame to take into consideration. It's not for certain that the environment will resemble the pre-Gifts era you're referring to.
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2008, 04:42:29 am »

I think i'd go with this engine:

Draw/Search:
4 Night's whisper
4 Thirst for knowledge
2 Sensei's divining top
1 Ancestral recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Demonic tutor

This is almost identical to the old draw-engine i used in slaver, +1 night's whisper, +2 sensei's top, -3 brainstorm.

Night's whisper is really good turn 1 and helps keep the mana and cards flowing.
The top has a nice synergy with thirsts, welders and shuffle effects, which is probably 15 cards at least.

The top would also work well with the confidants The Atog Lord suggested, i would probably still prefer night's whisper as they work NOW, and the late game is usually a good place for slaver anyway, so confidant might be too slow to actually improve the deck.

/Zeus
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2008, 06:55:39 am »

Quote
It seems like there is alot of wheel reinvention in this thread.

I donīt think this is wheel reinvention rather than having an open minded discussions about cards and strategies which were not viable before the 6/1 restrictions.
My opinion is that it is the right time not only to dig out but to rethink of some "old" deck concepts which were not competitive in a Flash/Gush meta.

The reason why I have opened this topic is not to discuss about a standard CS list replacing Brainstorms. But when you include SDT into a list (and this is definately a reasonable choice in CS) you should always check if Dark Confidant can also fit into the strategy and mana curve of that deck. As Nightīs Whisper was played in many CS builds to close the CC2 gap and to fuel your hand and I want to discuss if Bob -could- be a better choice, even if this cannot be answered without a defined metagame.

I will replace one Bob and the Merchant Scroll with Tormodīs Crypt and Gorilla Shaman and do some testing with it. One problem every blue deck has to face now is the amount of blue cards. My current build has only 17 blue cards remaining (and you donīt want to pitch some of them) which is usually not enough. I will try out if SDT/Bob will provide enough blue cards for my taste.

Depending on the meta more Welders and/or a single Counterbalance can be useful (at least in the sideboard).

@Zeus: With the possible comeback of CS its due time restart your Vintage career and visit some tournaments.

Bjoern
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2008, 11:25:00 pm »

Impulse is a card to consider for Slaver as well.  It was a card that I've had toyed with and now seems like a good time to play it considering the loss of Brainstorm and therefore blue cards.  It also fills the 2cc slot that is often available on turn one and definatley turn two if you don't have Drain in hand. 

If Tops make their way into your Slaver build I would strongly suggest testing Magus of the Future/Future Sight.  Magus typically allowed me to play ten cards in the deck when it was in play.  Losing Brainstorm sucks because it has great synergy with Magus but Tops, Impulse, Night's Whisper all work well with a resolved Magus. 
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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2008, 03:04:53 am »

Iīve been testing Slaver for a while. I think Top is must and also is Duress/Thoughtseize. My recent decklist:

// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
2 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering Titan

// Spells
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Lat-Nam's Legacy
3 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mindslaver
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Night's Whisper
1 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

I donīt think Magus of the Future will have a space in my deck. There is so much good draw cards with lower cost.... I am not sure about Impulse but I really like both Lat-Nam's Legacy and Night's Whisper.
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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2008, 01:15:46 am »

wox2, I'd make a couple changes to that list. First off, integrating some sort of artifact land so that you can actually get a slaver lock with Crucible would be one. Yeah, you can win without an actual infinite lock, but I'll also say that it results in immediate game concessions where having to actually win through would pose problems.

I'd look at what I was planning on Explosives-ing and find something better to answer that problem. Echoing Truth solves lots of problems and you can fetch it up with Merch if you need to.

You have no Mana Crypt... what? That's a misplay.

I'd run 4 Mana Drains. So much actually depends on having them, and the mana burst is what makes Slaver really playable.

I've never really gotten into Duress in Slaver either. A 1-for-1 trade isn't in Slaver's interests-- I'd rather be Draining my target instead. You lose a bit of your combo matchup but you gain in not fetching Sea on turn 1 and getting Wastelanded, which will happen a lot more than getting Stormed out on turn 1 will.

I really don't want to come off as a jerk but Magus of the Future Sight and his enchantable friend are both ass when Memory Jar exists in the format. Hell, I'd take Mind's Eye over it. I'd probably take JMD Tome over it too.

When you're building Slaver, you should have a plan for every event. For example, I'm not sure what you Tinker for against Stax, wox2. Tinker is one of your strongest plays against them, and going for Titan or Crucible both seem loose compared to what you can get rolling in Triskelavus or DSC, if you choose to run that.

Vamp is weird since it makes you fetch out Seas and it shorts you a draw in a deck already critically short on real draw. I don't know if I'd run FOF with it to offset it, but I'd consider it.

Finally, <3 to Rich Shay for remembering something I said a year ago that I forgot. Yes, Top is a draw engine when you have Welder in play since you tap it to draw a card and then Weld it away in response. Especially sick with two welders and/or two Tops in play.
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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2008, 10:40:24 am »

Hallo,

i came up with this

1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Tinker
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Echoing Truth
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mindslaver
1 Triskelavus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Artificer's Intuition
3 Myr Servitor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scull Clamp
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Goblin Welder
1 Intuition
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Academy Ruins

do you think Artificer's Intuition is a playable card?
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2008, 01:50:09 pm »

fosatto, you should look up a deck called "Suicide Virus". Mike Long made it up and Stephen Menendian wrote a couple articles about it a few years ago. It uses Artificer's Intuition.

As it is, I wouldn't try to incorporate AI, Servitors and Skullclamp in a Slaver deck. They just don't really do anything relevant.
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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2008, 02:25:27 am »

wox2, I'd make a couple changes to that list. First off, integrating some sort of artifact land so that you can actually get a slaver lock with Crucible would be one. Yeah, you can win without an actual infinite lock, but I'll also say that it results in immediate game concessions where having to actually win through would pose problems.
I am not impressed much by artifact lands. They loose game against Null Rods and Wastelands. Infinite Slaver is nice thing but on the other hand if things will go in a good way you will be able to slave some times and then will to replay artifacts and that looks easier way...

I'd look at what I was planning on Explosives-ing and find something better to answer that problem. Echoing Truth solves lots of problems and you can fetch it up with Merch if you need to.
I like Explosives. They are pernament solution. Echoing truth is more universal solving Null Rod but not permanent.

You have no Mana Crypt... what? That's a misplay.
I see so many times in Mirror my opponents Mana Crypt killing him. This deck is not gifts you are not able to combo out so fast... Deck is mana lighter. It includes just one robot and slaver. I am not having troubles to find enough mana. But I am having troubles with Aggro decks. 

I'd run 4 Mana Drains. So much actually depends on having them, and the mana burst is what makes Slaver really playable.
I've never really gotten into Duress in Slaver either. A 1-for-1 trade isn't in Slaver's interests-- I'd rather be Draining my target instead. You lose a bit of your combo matchup but you gain in not fetching Sea on turn 1 and getting Wastelanded, which will happen a lot more than getting Stormed out on turn 1 will.
4 drains are better against nothing but Stax. 3 Drains + 2 Duress are better against everything else in my experience. You want to see Duress in Drain Mirror in opening against Combo. Maybe you loose first land due to wasteland after duressing but consider if you want to discard first Lock component or mana and then loose land or to have Island and got Sphered.

I really don't want to come off as a jerk but Magus of the Future Sight and his enchantable friend are both ass when Memory Jar exists in the format. Hell, I'd take Mind's Eye over it. I'd probably take JMD Tome over it too.

I havenīt use Magus of the Future Neither Future Sight. Maybe using Memory Jar is good idea. I haven't time to test it.

When you're building Slaver, you should have a plan for every event. For example, I'm not sure what you Tinker for against Stax, wox2. Tinker is one of your strongest plays against them, and going for Titan or Crucible both seem loose compared to what you can get rolling in Triskelavus or DSC, if you choose to run that.
Game against Workshop decks are really different and all four cards - DSC, Crucible, Titan or Triskelavus can win. I love Titan against most of the decks. Decks with duals loose instantly thanks to him (combo not each time). 7/10 body is really good against workshop decks if they haven't Welder in play. Crucible is on of cards I want to see against workshops. I can control game and fetch, play duals from grave or Strip Mine opponent each turn. I am not fan of Triskelavus. He is difficult to cast and is a death card in opening. He is good against Welders and Confidants but needs too much mana. I play Triskelion in my side instead. I won't play more than one robot in deck because I donīt want to devastate my opening hand and early game. DSC is good when facing aggro or Stax. He is inferior to Titan in many times. He is shuffled back to deck, when Titan can be welded back to game. 

Vamp is weird since it makes you fetch out Seas and it shorts you a draw in a deck already critically short on real draw. I don't know if I'd run FOF with it to offset it, but I'd consider it.
I am one of players that will never play deck that wins half of the games by resolving Tinker without Vampiric Tutor. FoF is crap. If you are saying that you should have each time your gameplan say me what you do when you have not enough mana for Fof? When you want one card in a deck and you will not see it in those 5. FoF is random good random bad. I won't play them over Gifts Ungiven and Gifts are saying Recoup and making deck less mana light than it is. if I have to choose Vampiric, Gifts or FoF I will choose Vampiric.

Finally, <3 to Rich Shay for remembering something I said a year ago that I forgot. Yes, Top is a draw engine when you have Welder in play since you tap it to draw a card and then Weld it away in response. Especially sick with two welders and/or two Tops in play.
Yep it is combo  Wink I am not saying Tops or Welders are in deck for Welder-Top trick but they works nice together.
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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2008, 08:35:16 pm »

Slaver isn't a Tinker deck. It isn't a slaver deck. It isn't a Drain deck. I'm not sure what it is. To quote Randy Buehler, slaver doesn't do anything well but it does a lot of things decently.

I'm not sure if English is your first or second language, but your post is hard for me to understand in places so I'll just reply to the stuff that I can make sense of.

Quote
I am not having troubles to find enough mana. But I am having troubles with Aggro decks.

More mana means more spells cast, means sooner Tinker or Slaver or Fire/Ice or Colossus or whatever you want. If we are playing the Slaver mirror and I get to put Mana Crypt into play on my first turn and you aren't playing with one, I will win every match. If you're worried about the damage in the mirror, side it out. I will ASSURE you though that the Slaver mirror is decided on only a few things-- graveyard management through Tcrypt, Welder superiority and mana. Of those, I think having more mana than the other player is most important.

Quote
consider if you want to discard first Lock component or mana and then loose land or to have Island and got Sphered.

Slaver wins the Stax match when it can play Basic Islands and get Mana Drain online. That you would rather Duress a Sphere out of their hand and get Wastelanded than play an Island and deal with Sphere by continuing to play lands tells me that you haven't played against competent Stax players. Mana Drain resolving is absolutely key in that matchup, it negates much of the work they've done in previous turns. Consider:

Sea, Mox, Duress you taking Sphere
them: Wasteland, eat your Sea, Mox, Chalice 0
You: Island
them: Shop off the top, Smokestack, win the game in a few turns

Slaver basically cannot win from this position.

VERSUS:

Island, mox, go
Them: Wasteland, Mox, Sphere of Resistance
you: Island, go
them: Shop off the top, Smokestack
you: here's a card called Mana Drain

On your turn, you play Thirst, Volcanic Island and Goblin Welder. They have a very hard time winning from this position.



Duress is bad in Slaver because you don't want to be making 1-for-1 trades. This is because you can't refill your hand well enough to be engaging in that. It's also why REB is better than Duress off the board for the mirror, as REB makes an opponent commit resources as well as a card to the spell.

Quote
I am one of players that will never play deck that wins half of the games by resolving Tinker without Vampiric Tutor.

Why not run Seal and Personal Tutor then?

Yes, clearly Slaver wins a lot by playing Tinker. Let's really look at how and when it does this, though. In many of my games, I find that I just draw into the Tinker or a tutor for it when I need to, and that DT and MT are sufficient enough to find it when I need it. Rarely does a Suicide Tinker on turn 1 actually win the game. Vampiric Tutor is most useful in getting the following cards: Black Lotus, Tolarian Academy, Tormod's Crypt, Strip Mine. They are unlikely to get countered and deprive you of two cards in one.

Gifts Ungiven is nuts. Like, it's one of the things that Rich Shay and Brian Demars agree on as being amazing in the deck. That should say something to you.
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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2008, 09:04:32 am »

I'm testing with Drainslaver too, and I really got a problem with the third color. You only get discard effects, tutors and Ywill. Theese cards are good, but do u really need them? I think, Hi-Val was quite right, saying that proactive control does not fit into drainslaver. I really like Duress and Thoughtseize, but splashing them into a deck playing drains?... I really don't want to reinvent wheels ot whatever, but I had the same discussion with GAT. Finally i've been playing 6 discard effects and no manadrains. You can only do 1 thing: keep mana for draining/thirsting/facting or duressing druring your own turn. Doing both is too manaintense.
Especially here in south Germany, the Meta consists of fishes, shops, few combo and some dredge. Fish in all it's (partially perverted) versions makes more than 30%. Against this massiv manadenial a three-colored manabase seems to be very hard to keep on the table. That's why I've been cutting black.

My favourite version contains 3 magus of the moon. Against many decks it's a mustcounter or gamesweeper. Furthermore you stabilzie your Manabase.

4 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy

3 Goblin Welder
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Pentavus

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mindslaver
1 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Echoing Truth
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder

Sideboard
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelion
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Counterbalance
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Deep Analysis
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 09:10:22 am by bisamratte » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2008, 11:43:57 pm »

i think if youre going to run any type of draw engine in slaver its the intuition/ak engine. i cant really think of a more consistent/ stable draw engine in it. also Gifts MUST be in every single slaver deck concieved, as it wins the game. also depending on the variant of slaver you might even want to go as far as getting rid of vampiric tutor (thats if youre playing burning slaver and slavers without black) for fire///ice or some other shin-dig. i know that sounds stupid but like i said with burning slaver and other variants it works because the deck just doesnt need tutors as badly partly because of the bombs it draws to begin with. also slaver decks should and should only use the following five big men for their welding shenanigans...

-DSC (for the tinker version of slaver)
-Triskelavus (because it pwns the shit out of ichorid)
-Duplicant (this card is stupid versatile just try it)
-Sundering Titan (screw over any rit deck any day)
-Platz (Screw over ichorid and shop decks)

I'm testing with Drainslaver too, and I really got a problem with the third color. You only get discard effects, tutors and Ywill. Theese cards are good, but do u really need them?

i honestly believe that black needs to be in a slaver deck. now granted you do not need to be using 4 underground seas and fully focusing on those cards to win you the game, theyll just help create an even greater amount of outlets though. hell i dont run thoughtseize, duress, or vamp tutor in my slaver deck but demonic and yawgwill work just fine. i just dont consider them top priority. i would suggest for anyone running slaver to run around 3-4 islands (one of them being a snow-covered if youre running gifts), 3-4 volcanic islands, and 2-3 underground seas because in most cases you dont have to run out a nonbasic land till turn 3 (even though everyone probably knew that by now). but then again in bisamrattes position i doubt he can tack on a new color for the deck just for 2-3 cards, especially with fish running around all stupid in his meta. shop should be easy to beat if you just land a welder (shop and stax flop to that card, and yet they use it  Surprised ) and ichorid you even have the chance of beating game 1 if you MD crypt or EE. iono. just a thought. oh and btw, gorilla shaman is the nutz in slaver. there should at least be one in every slaver deck. its just too good.
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2008, 09:38:36 am »

Well, I think, I'll try some things you said. Pps I'll like it Smile

Another question to me is, what cards I should pick with Gifts. You said I can find mana. Ok, but what else if I don't need any mana? I can digg out 2 bombs: Slaver + Pentavus or Titan. The last one needs to stay in my lib, because of tinker. My opponent will put the two remaining cards into my grave, leaving me the bombs if I don't have any Welders in play. If I choose less than four cards, intuition is better. That's why I'd rather play Intuition than Gifts.
My problem is, that I don't have space to get 1-2 Intuitions into the deck. The same is true for the second Monkey. I don't want to cut the EE, because of the Fishes.

The plan vs Ichorid is to get the Magus online, before my opponent starts bazaaring. Probably i'll loose game 1 to dredge, but my SB is able to handle Ichorid very well.
Needles, Magi, Crypts, Explosives and Platz should be enough.

Also, i'd not play Triskelavus over Pentavus. Pentavus is able to win against every shopdeck, triskelavus only against Dredge. I'd rather be afraid of Shops than of Dredge, because of the higher chance to be paired vs Shops Smile
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« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2008, 11:20:45 am »

Well, I think, I'll try some things you said. Pps I'll like it Smile

Another question to me is, what cards I should pick with Gifts. You said I can find mana. Ok, but what else if I don't need any mana? I can digg out 2 bombs: Slaver + Pentavus or Titan. The last one needs to stay in my lib, because of tinker. My opponent will put the two remaining cards into my grave, leaving me the bombs if I don't have any Welders in play. If I choose less than four cards, intuition is better. That's why I'd rather play Intuition than Gifts.

usually with Gifts you wanna pick four cards that are so strong that it doesnt matter which one your opponents picks it loses them the gaem regardless. for example, i play gifts and i get 2 big men/large threats and 2 tutors or yawg will/ some other broken card. gifts also doesnt necessarily have to be used to make your opponent yell "gg", it can be used to get four cards that will get you out of a tight spot, and depending on the way you set up your gifts, your opponent is almost always going to give you the right cards. thats why a snow-covered island is in my deck instead of an island just incase i need to get another one for gifts.

Also, i'd not play Triskelavus over Pentavus. Pentavus is able to win against every shopdeck, triskelavus only against Dredge. I'd rather be afraid of Shops than of Dredge, because of the higher chance to be paired vs Shops Smile

have you tried duplicant against shop aggro? its been good for me against that deck. iono.
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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2008, 12:22:10 pm »

Duplo is im my SB. The thing is, I just need 1 Slot for Pentavus so bring down Shops, but 2 for Duplo and Triskelavus.

My argument against the Gifts is, that you take for example Titan, Angel, Demonic and Will. Your opponent will give you the 2 creatures. You loose Will and Demonic to get 2 7+cc cards in hand. If u cannot discard them they are dead in your hand. Playing Gifts to get a disadvantege-tutor is also a bad plan.
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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2008, 03:37:41 pm »

My argument against the Gifts is, that you take for example Titan, Angel, Demonic and Will. Your opponent will give you the 2 creatures. You loose Will and Demonic to get 2 7+cc cards in hand. If u cannot discard them they are dead in your hand. Playing Gifts to get a disadvantege-tutor is also a bad plan.

usually the time to play gifts is at the end of the turn, and knowing most slaver decks, there going to be able to play the cards that gifts gave them. oh i forgot to mention this and it seems really stupid for not nut you could do a gifts pile like this.

-any tutor
-yawg will
-big ass guy
-TFK or Acall (Probably TFK)

that would screw them over (or at least ive done that and its worked perfectly). iono. FOF seems really good in your deck though and in general because people usually screw up on the piles. Gifts or FOF really doesnt matter in the end so long as you know how to play them like champs. Smile
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« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2008, 04:04:48 pm »

Duplo is im my SB. The thing is, I just need 1 Slot for Pentavus so bring down Shops, but 2 for Duplo and Triskelavus.

My argument against the Gifts is, that you take for example Titan, Angel, Demonic and Will. Your opponent will give you the 2 creatures. You loose Will and Demonic to get 2 7+cc cards in hand. If u cannot discard them they are dead in your hand. Playing Gifts to get a disadvantege-tutor is also a bad plan.

Why would you EVER Gifts for those cards?

You are fundamentally failing at playing Gifts correctly in all these cases. If you're tutoring for those two creatures, you just find only those two and Entomb both of them. You can get less than 4 cards with Gifts if you want.

And going for DT, VT and MT to go get Tinker or Will next turn is gamewinning. Toss in Black Lotus for the 4th card for added hilarity.

I'm convinced that people who don't run Gifts have no idea how to maximize it.
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2008, 04:11:04 pm »

Duplo is im my SB. The thing is, I just need 1 Slot for Pentavus so bring down Shops, but 2 for Duplo and Triskelavus.

My argument against the Gifts is, that you take for example Titan, Angel, Demonic and Will. Your opponent will give you the 2 creatures. You loose Will and Demonic to get 2 7+cc cards in hand. If u cannot discard them they are dead in your hand. Playing Gifts to get a disadvantege-tutor is also a bad plan.

Why would you EVER Gifts for those cards?

You are fundamentally failing at playing Gifts correctly in all these cases. If you're tutoring for those two creatures, you just find only those two and Entomb both of them. You can get less than 4 cards with Gifts if you want.

And going for DT, VT and MT to go get Tinker or Will next turn is gamewinning. Toss in Black Lotus for the 4th card for added hilarity.

I'm convinced that people who don't run Gifts have no idea how to maximize it.

Agreed.  If Gifts does not outright win the game for you, or at least put you in a position to win, you're either not playing it correctly or your position was too fargone to begin with.

Four tutors is fun.  Ancestral, Time Walk, Demonic, Mystical is as well.  Double Entomb can also seal the deal.  It's so versatile, and can pull you out of a lot of tight spots.

As an added benefit, if you can muster up 8 mana to play Gifts during the opponent's upkeep during their slavered turn, it = epin winz.
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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2008, 07:23:31 pm »

Ok. Bad example XD

The thing is, that I don't want to splash B into my deck. I really like Magus is my meta Razz

I found a solution today, by adding 1 single Deep Analysis. Now I can get the "Fat-Man" Pile + draw. 

Some ideas were:
Slaver + Pentavus + Analysis
MT + Scroll + Analysis + T4K or stuff like that

My Problem with piles like the 2nd is, that I waste good cards. With DA it works much better.

Now it looks like that:

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mindslaver

3 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Platinum Angel
1 Pentavus
1 Triskelion

1 Deep Analysis
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker

4 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Volcanic Island

SB:
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Trinisphere
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
1 Fire/Ice
2 Counterbalance

I got a very nice Aggroplan with Magus + Gorillas. Gifts can contain a Magus as well. The T. Crypt and the 2nd Monkey found their way into the deck Smile
The 2c version with its stabil manabase makes me able to play with only 14 lands, saving slots for more threads.

 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 07:27:43 pm by bisamratte » Logged

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