The Mountains Win Again!

[nineisnoone]

@ Haunted:  And what's your point?  Are you trying to catch me up in that I'm classifying this list wrong as a hate deck? 

V/R
Masta

Hate is reactive (i guess), tempo is proactive.  Really a nit-picky technical distinction, but you wouldn't really bait, per se.  You just drop your strongest stuff as soon as you can, and then apply pressure.  You shouldn't really throw out fakes because you're loosing tempo with that sort of play, and you're underpowered as is.

[mort-]

I'd like to throw a mono R list into the mix, because I do think this could be quite fun to play.

So here is what i thought (ofcourse I did copy a few things from lists I saw in this thread, so it's nothing completly new):

Budget TMWA

19 Lands

14x Mountain
4x Forgotten Cave
1x Strip Mine

11 Spells

2x Browbeat
1x Wheel of Fortune
4x Pyroblast
2x Fireblast
2x Dead // Gone

16 Creatures

4x Magus of the Moon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Viashino Heretic
2x Gorilla Shaman
4x Countryside Crusher
2x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

15 Artifacts

2x Crucible of Worlds
1x Trinisphere
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
4x Aether Vial
2x Chrome Mox
4x Mask of Memory

About a few Cardchoices:

Forgotten Cave: Let's you dig through your library a bit. There are no spells with higher cost then CC3, so I thought about adding some "card draw". Also it has a nice synergy with Countryside Crusher. I don't know atm if I should switch it with Wastelands / City of Traitor's / Ancient Tombs.

Browbeat: Damage or draw, should be ok

Fireblast: Should work nice with Countryside Crusher.

Pyroblast: I don't know if four are relevant and if i should play Vexing Shousher instead.

Dead // Gone: I do think it's nice against Oath and/or Darksteel Colossus, so I included it.

Countryside Crusher: I added four because many spells cause you to throw your lands into your graveyard. My main creature in this deck.

Shaman / Heretic: I do not have any experience with those two, but I'll just try this mix now

Jaya Ballard: 2/2 + nice little gimmiks imho.

Aether Vial: With so much 3drops I do think it's a must have. Also gives you more room to discard / saccrifice lands.

Chrome Mox: I don't know if a Diamond Mox would be better in this case. It does have a better Synergy with the CC.

Mask of Memory: I don't know about this atm. It's cheap and it lets you plow through your library. With 1/3 Cards in the deck being lands, it has a nice synergy with the CC. Also it's a may, not a have to.

Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Greetings,

Florian

[Masta]

@ Haunted:  And what's your point?  Are you trying to catch me up in that I'm classifying this list wrong as a hate deck? 

V/R
Masta

Hate is reactive (i guess), tempo is proactive.  Really a nit-picky technical distinction, but you wouldn't really bait, per se.  You just drop your strongest stuff as soon as you can, and then apply pressure.  You shouldn't really throw out fakes because you're loosing tempo with that sort of play, and you're underpowered as is.

I don't want to start any arguments here, but let's get this straight.  TMWA is a meta deck that hates on people.  Usually, powered Blue decks.  Hate is not reactive nor proactive, it's both.  You just play your hateful cards and destroy your opponent.   

Haunted said that TMWA is a tempo-based meta deck.  My response to that is that about 95% of hate decks are just that.  Fish, TMWA, many Goblin builds, and others can all be considered hate decks because they all play cards that hose the best suped-up power decks in Vintage.  Don't tell me cards like Null Rod, Pillar, Kataki, Shaman, Wasteland, REB-effect cards, and Magus do not exist solely in these decks to hate out on the more powered decks.  In fact, in theory most non-top tier decks are hateful because they are home to cards that deal with the big boys.  Do you see TPS, Slaver, Ichorid, or Painter running cards specifically to hose other decks?  No.  So basically for mostly every other deck to compete in Vintage they have to have some form of hate included to deal with top tier decks, otherwise they will fail.

@ Mort-

I like Jaya, mostly because she's smoking hot.  Your Crucible is pretty contingent on getting your Jaya/Crusher engine going.  And your right, your mana curve is pretty steep.  Finally, that's a lot of Pyroblasts, not enough creatures for Vial, and MoM is just not good enough.  Add Wastelands, more Shamans because two isn't enough, and something that deals with combo (specifically Pillar or Null Rod).

V/R
Masta

[hauntedechos]

  I am not trolling here and certainly do NOT want to have the thread degenerate.


Hate decsk = rogue = a deck created soley and specificly for a defined meta at that time.  Typically they never see light of day again after the meta changes.

Tempo based meta decks= decks such as Fish and TMWA = recruring theme once a meta becomes defined.  Typically employs the use of a variety of cards that cycle through it's repetoire as a meta deems fit.  Cards employed are typically used to win in increments, which do not seal the deal but buy time, hence tempo;  thusly allowing them to drop more cards that do the same untill the game is won through the attack step.


For further reference:  please dredge up the "playing hate decks over top decks" thread on TMD.com, which I started and was also enlightened about the very same topic we are talking about.

It was never meant to be ignorant or holier than thou:  simply a technical point I made.  The point that you are getting mixed up is with the use of the term "hate".  While it is true that "hate" cards are used in meta decks, an actual "hate deck" is a deck created for a specific point in time.  Hence why I stated that it was a point of clarification.  The point is, as well, that decks like TMWA and Fish cannot exist with any success, with thier "hatefull cards" untill the meta has becomed defined; again hence why they are meta based tempo decks.

Haunted.

[andrewpate]

This reminds me of the time Adrian Sullivan said that everyone on the whole internet, including all the Magicthegathering.com and Starcitygames.com writers, were wrong and the Orzhov decks (HiH and friends, not Ghost Husk) were not actually aggro-control decks.  Apparently some time in the Clinton administration, someone decided to call the CounterSliver strategy (use countermagic as Time Walks by making your opponents waste turns without resolving things and ride efficiently costed creatures cheap enough not to interfere with the countermagic to victory just before the opponent's game ramps up out of your underpowered control) "aggro-control," and everyone who thinks aggro-control can ever describe anything else, such as a deck with discard, lock parts, removal, etc. instead of permission, is a noob in need of a history lesson.  In short, it may be an accurate claim according to some rubric but it comes across as somewhat pompous, doesn't really help people play Magic better, and skirts a bit too close to the line of those much-maligned, long-banned deck name debates.  I'd request that the matter dropped.

On topic question:  does Jaya Ballard, Task Mage go up in stock now that her first ability destroys Tezzeret?  I have remained unsold on her, but I'm taking another look at this point.

[TopSecret]

On topic question:  does Jaya Ballard, Task Mage go up in stock now that her first ability destroys Tezzeret?  I have remained unsold on her, but I'm taking another look at this point.

Well, unless your opponent has a blocker,
any creature with two or more power can deal with Tezzeret by attacking him.
So, I don't think Jaya's worth goes up by much at all,
unless you're worried about the opponent resolving a single activation with Tezzeret.

She does sidestep the need for the combat step,
which could be nifty in the right circumstance.
Perhaps it could be relevant if searching up Painter's Servants to block
or searching up the second half of the Painter-Grindstone kill becomes a problem?

[andrewpate]

I was mostly thinking about Ophidian.  Clearly, if they have no creatures, the solution is just to turn a guy sideways and call it a day.

[WhiteWolf]

Inspired by the RW list Dan posted a few pages ago I’m going to test something like this for the new metagame:

4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Magus of the Moon

4 Null Rod

4 Dead/Gone
4 Swords to Plowshares

5 Mountain
5 Plains
4 Plateau
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
2 Mox

Sideboard

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Pithing Needle
4 Shattering Spree
3 Serenity (I suspect a rise in Oath decks but this also rapes Stax. Other possibilites are Seals or Ronom Unicorns)

Mindcensor seems very good to hinder the Tezzeret and Grindstone decks. The list also includes the new combo killer Ethersworn Canonist. I choose Dead/Gone maindeck over Lightning Bolt because Dead/Gone takes care of Welder, Confidants, Goyfs, Colossus, Oath creatures, ... The only thing Bolt does better is taking out Tezzeret.

I also have a version wich drops the Magus of the Moon for True Believers or Glowriders and some lands for Wastes. I prefer The Moon version at the moment because a lot of people still get caught with their pants down by Magus and I can see Shops making a comeback.

The only thing I miss with this color configuration is card–draw, although I hope the threat density solves that. Confidant is the most logical solution but not for the Moon version of course. I even contemplated adding something like Mindstorm Crown to replenish your hand.

I’m curious what people, especially Dan, think about a list like this?

[Miaou]

WhiteWolf, I was wondering if you found TPS/Long type decks to be a problem...You have nice disruption, but it seems too slow. Giving combo 2-3 turns undisrupted is usually not going to cut it in my experience. So I was thinking of maybe adding 4 Simian Spirit Guides. The list is tight, but if you were to cut a Lotus Petal, 2 Dead/Gone and a Gorilla Shaman I think they would nicely speed up your game. My reasoning behind these cuts are the following:

-Your mana base is stable enough to not get color screwed I'm sure, so the white mana from the Lotus Petal won't be an issue, plus the SSG won't get welded in for your Null Rods
-You wanted the Dead/Gones to deal with Confidants/Welders/DSC and Oath creatures. For the first 2, you already have STPs and Fanatics. Can't argue about the DSC but you still have the 4 STP. As for Oath, well one of their creatures is typically Akroma who is pro red...So it won't help that much.
-Finally for justification for cutting a shaman, is that you already hit their mana base pretty hard with 4 Rods and 4 Magus, so one less isn't that bad. And he is pretty worthless in multiples.

Other than that I like the list. I personally opted for a BR list with a small white splash (3 Hide/Seek + 2 Kataki), and I find it is working out great. I really wanted to get the Hide/Seeks in to deal with DSC (to complement my 4 Diabolic Edicts) and the Oath match up which is pretty terrible. Other blue decks I tend to beat up though! If anyone is interested in it, I would gladly share

[Soon-Man]

On Saturday I ran a RG build of TMWA. I was happy with it, but I think it needs some tweaking. (I didn't know if this is actually considered RG beats, but i only run 2 cards that use green) So I'll give you the list, the run down and what I am thinking about for changes.

Lands:17
4 Wooded Foothill
2 Windswepth Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures:25
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Simian Spirit Guide

Artifacts:14
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
4 Null Rod
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Skull Clamp

Spells:4
4 Lightning Bolt

Side Board:15
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Shattering Spree
3 Seal of Primordium
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Red Elemental Blast

The deck was really solid. I had main deck answers for every match up to compliment the raw power of the awe inspiring Tarmogoyf.

What doesn't change:
Tarmogoyf: Most games come down to do if I can get down goyf. I don't think I need to explain how goyf works and why he is good.

Magus of the Moon: After goyf this is the most important card in the deck. Blood Moon on a stick proved to be the answer to almost everything. Opponent has Shop to power things out, Factory to Block, Academy, Strip/Waste+Crucible, Library, Underground Sea, Tundra, the list goes on. The 2/2 body is just icing on the cake. He really doesn't effect my mana base at all. I always use a fetch to grab my forest before I play him(which seems to happen 100% of the time from my experience). The only cards that use green are Goyf and Hooligan. Since my forest is unstripable with Magus down, it never really turns into a problem.

Tin Street Hooligan: {G} Blow up target Artifact with a 2/1 body..........sweet. There is just so many targets with so little time. Between Magus, Rod and Hooligan Stax isn't a problem. And seeing how the New England Meta seems to go, that is a really good thing.

Mogg Fanatic: I originally wasn't going to play this. After playing with it I'm not sure why I wouldn't. Kills Bob, Welder and takes out Bridges. Just having another beater isn't the worst thing either.

Null Rod: Artifacts are huge right now. Everything from Moxen to Top. It just a good card.

What I want to/am thinking about changing:
Vexing Shusher: OMG TEH UBER L33TNEsS. Blue is and will always be a Vintage power house. This means that counters will never go away and the means you need ways around them. That and chalice on 2 completely wrecks me(as rare as it is). So you would think that a 2/2 for 2 that 1 extra mana gets all your stuff to stick would be awesome. Well it is. I don't know if I should play 4 main or play another in the board.

Gorilla Shaman: It's good, but i really never get to use it. The one time I did use it, it was great and it led to a victory vs Oath(the decks worst match up). But most of the time It just more important to get down other things then it is to kill their moxen. I am not sure If I want to take them out or just take one out so I don't run into it as much. Maybe it's just a board card, but board room is kinda tight so IDK.

Simian Spirit Guide: Not complaining what so ever. I'm playing with 4 next time.

Skull Clamp: This was a really interesting case. I never wanted to see it most of the time. It was just more important to have threats on the table then in my hand. Then I played against Oath and I had all these stupid spirit tokens that just took up space on the table. Then Clamp turns into a draw engine that led to my surprising victory. The thing that really hurts it is Null Rod, a staple of the deck. If I am going keep it, I am going to move it to the board just for Oath.

Thorn of Amethyst: This is hard. It was really really good. It kills combo and screws pretty bad with control. It did hurt a little when I would drop it and then draw into bolts and rods. I am not sure that is that much of a problem seeing as it hurts my opponent more. I was thinking about moving them to the board, but I know I would end up siding them in almost every game. Since aggro isn't that popular, I think maybe its better to keep them main and board them out on the rare case of Fish, Goblins and the Mirror which as of late aren't that popular. The draw back is that they make my stuff harder to play. Since I don't play a lot of non creatures it's not a big deal. The problem is that it limits what I can play. It makes me want to keep away from things over 2 mana. But I can't argue with results and this card really preforming. Its the matches that I had to Side it out that I lost. Really looking for Aid on this one.

Lightning Bolt: It good. It kills Everything that Fanatic does and Juggernaut. A lot of people are packing new things like Canonist and Tezzeret, which this clears up quite nicely. It even plays well with Thorns. Sure it becomes Incinerate, but incinerate is fine when 90% of your opponents deck cost more then my single burn spell. The problem is that it doesn't kill things like opposing Goyfs and Oath Creatures. To get around this I am going to try Stingscourger in the board.

Mana Base: The mana base was great. The only thing I want to change is that I want to play 2 forests instead of 1. This way even if my one gets stripped I can still fetch the other or hope to draw into it later. Not that important, but it could be.

Side Board:I built the SB thinking that I was going to see nothing, but Shops and Storm variants. Turns out that I didn't play a single Storm deck. I am not saying that I don't need to prepare for Storm(even though there is so much hate out there right now that I am pretty sure Storm is on the way out).
Tormod's Crypt: The idea was that It takes care of dredge half decently and compliments Fanatic. Then against Storm I would take out their yard in response to them playing Yawg Will. I never actually got to use it. There was only 1 dredge player and I never played against a storm deck. I don't Know if I need this card taking up 4 spots anymore.

Shattering Spree: I came for Shop, I saw Shop, I conquered Shop. This really does turn that match up pretty one sided. Its not bad against decks that run more then just a couple mox. Its important to know that it doesn't play well with Thorn. Knowing when which is better is turns into a big deal. Made that mistake once......only once.

Seal of Primordium: No. This is the one card out of everything that I am just getting rid of. It does two things. Kills artifacts. I already have 14 cards(with the current list), 11 in the main. Kills enchantments. The only enchantment I can think that I have ever run into is Oath and I am pretty sure there is better options. Sure I can play it proactively to try and get around counters, but I sure there is better answers.

Pyrostatic Pillar: I ran this to stop Storm. After thinking it over, I am pretty sure that this is a great answer. However It doesn't play well with Thorn. On the other hand, Have 7 hate cards isn't a bad thing. I don't see one being more helpful then the other, so I am pretty that I can play both and just drop what ever I draw first. Sure Thorn makes it harder to play Pillar, but Pillar doesn't make it harder to play Thorn. Maybe my thinking on this is wrong, but that I why I am asking you guys for options.

Red Elemental Blast: Should have run at least 3. I see blue, I put them in. Even with Thorn down, is still a good price for its power.

What I am thinking about changing
Like I said, the deck is pretty solid. Here are the revisions that I have made so far. I am not done yet, so list is incomplete. The Main is missing 3 cards(57/60) and the Board is missing 6(9/15(duh)).
Out:
-1 Mountain
-3 Goriila Shaman
-3 Skull Clamp
In:
+1 Forest
+1 Vexing Shusher
+1 Simian Spirit Guide
+1 Lotus Petal
Lands:17
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures:24
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Artifacts:12
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Null Rod

Spells:4
4 Lightning Bolt

Side Board:15
3 Shattering Spree
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Stingscourger

[nineisnoone]

Isn't Grim Lavamancer better than Moog Fanatic?  It's a little slower against Dredge since you need R and a turn to tap it, but you can have it target itself to remove bridges.  And it does hit 2 toughness creatures and trade with Juggernaut.

With Chrome/Diamond Mox both unrestricted has anyone considered using them to power out a 4/4 mix of Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon?  While the strategy would be hosed quite a bit with the prevalence of Null Rod, Red is probably the best color to deal with an artifacts from Ignot Chewer, to Shattering Spree, to Ancient Grudge.  Additionally, Vexing Shusher helps make sure whatever you need to hit hits.

[FadeToBlack]

Lavamancer makes your Goyfs sad.

[nineisnoone]

Ahh. True.  I was wondering why Lavamancer seemed to suddenly disappear from lists.

[Hillboy]

So if your not running goyf grim might be good. That gives me an idea.

[Namingway]

Hello everyone - long time no see. I used to play this deck (the B/R version with Jagged Poppet) a while ago, and I liked it. It did pretty well, too - I ended up 13th in the Swedish Vintage Championship, despite not having any P9. Back then, I was interested in the R/W version as well, but never got around to playing it, for various reasons.

With the addition of Shards of Alara, I think R/W TMWA has recieved a great card in Ethersworn Canonist. It's like a one-sided Rule of Law, with a 2/2 body, and for one less mana. Sounds perfect for this deck! So I decided to throw a list together and see how it would look. This is what I came up with:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Flooded Strand
7 Plains
3 Plateau
2 Windswept Heath

3 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring

4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Glowrider
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte

SB: 4 Aura of Silence
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Ghostly Prison
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

Keep in mind that I don't have access to P9, and I'd like to be able to play this in non-proxy tournaments, so I chose Mox Diamond instead. This deck runs enough lands (18, to be precise) to be able to play a land turn 1 and still have one to discard to Diamond. The reason why I only play 3 Diamonds is because I only want to see it in my opening hand - it becomes useless later on, because of all the Sphere effects. By then, I could just play the land instead, but as an opening accelerant, it's pretty good.

I also borrowed Smmenen's Parfait tech (Aura of Silence), but I put it in the SB instead of maindeck, since I already have 13 Sphere effects. Also, it costs three mana, which means that I often can't play it turn 1, as I can with Thorn and Sphere.

To summarize, I know it's a budget version, but I still think it could be decent. I haven't tried it, though. What do you think?

[nineisnoone]

For the record, Canonist isn't one sided.

I was actually working on a similar idea.  Except - Chalice, - Spheres of Resistance, - Jitte, - Tomb, for + Mox, + Blood Moon (main deck), + Grim Lavamancer, + Ignot Chewer.

I don't see the Spheres, it's too symmetric imo.  9 spheres is enough.  I liked Lavamancer since fish decks can often get more people on the ground then you and Lavamancer can remove all non-'Goyfs.  Plus, since my list is heavy on artifact acceleration, having a guy who can remove bears in the Null Fish match up is pretty good.  You have Jitte, but Jitte is turned off by Null Rod.  I choose Ignot over Shaman since Ignot can be a better late game beater and again deals with Null Rod.  I like a few Blood Moon's main because the effect is so good.

Chalice is an interesting call.  I kinda don't like it in mine since it interferes with mox and Lavamancer though.  I would also definitely run REB in the side. 

[Kotch]

I don't really like the dissynergy between Canonist and Sphere effects, because with so many Sphere-likes your opponent won't be able to cast more than 1 non-artifact spell per turn anyway.

I am currently testing a quite similar list :

BOROS DECK WINS :

4 plains
4 plateau
3 windswept heath
3 flooded strand
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 strip mine
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring

4 simian spirit guide
4 magus of the moon
4 mogg fanatic
4 gorilla shaman
3 aven mindcensor
2 jotun grunt
4 glowrider

3 sphere of resistance
4 thorn of amethyst
3 swords to plowshares

60 cards

Side :
3 viashino heretic
4 pithing needle
2 umezawa's jitte
2 tormod's crypt
4 ronom unicorn

About the mana base, I feel it enough explosive and consistant (29 potential sources!). I tried Chrome Mox and found it relevant only in a Hellbent mono-red version.

I think that the 4 Shamans are auto-include slots, with 11 Sphere-likes and Magus of the Moon they are sooo important to destroy artifact-mana sources.
I don't feel useful to play Trinisphere or the 4th Sphere of Resistance, 11 Sphere-effects seem to be very sufficient!

I was also thinking about Skullclamp... any suggestions?...

[Namingway]

For the record, Canonist isn't one sided.

Technically, it isn't, but I think this deck will rarely be playing more than one non-artifact spell per turn anyway. It's far more devastating for your opponent.

I don't see the Spheres, it's too symmetric imo.  9 spheres is enough. [...] Chalice is an interesting call.  I kinda don't like it in mine since it interferes with mox and Lavamancer though.  I would also definitely run REB in the side.

I can see that becoming a problem as well. The question is, what to replace it with? I'd like to keep Chalice and the whole "prison" theme of the deck, so perhaps some other hindering effect would be good to replace it with. And I agree that Ingot Chewer seems better than Gorilla Shaman. It also evades the problem of Chalice @ 1 preventing you from playing Shaman. That's also a disadvantade of playing REB - it's inhibited by Chalice.

[nineisnoone]

I can see that becoming a problem as well. The question is, what to replace it with? I'd like to keep Chalice and the whole "prison" theme of the deck, so perhaps some other hindering effect would be good to replace it with. And I agree that Ingot Chewer seems better than Gorilla Shaman. It also evades the problem of Chalice @ 1 preventing you from playing Shaman. That's also a disadvantade of playing REB - it's inhibited by Chalice.

I don't have any other prison pieces to be honest.  Just Mindscensor, Magus, Canonist, Glowrider, and Thorns, and maybe the odd Blood Moon or Rule of Law.

But I'm not really happy with my list at the moment.  Glowrider, Magus, and Mindcensor are all 3 mana which makes the deck slow and very accelerant reliant.  Have you found that to be a problem?  When you get one of them early with some decent follow ups, the deck is good.  Otherwise, not so great. 

[Namingway]

I don't have any other prison pieces to be honest.  Just Mindscensor, Magus, Canonist, Glowrider, and Thorns, and maybe the odd Blood Moon or Rule of Law.

But I'm not really happy with my list at the moment.  Glowrider, Magus, and Mindcensor are all 3 mana which makes the deck slow and very accelerant reliant.  Have you found that to be a problem?  When you get one of them early with some decent follow ups, the deck is good.  Otherwise, not so great. 

That's why I've found 2-mana artifacts - like Chalice @ 1, Thorn, and Sphere to a lesser extent - to be so good: You can play them on turn 1 with an Ancient Tomb (or any combination of two of land, Diamond, and Spirit Guide), and they delay the opponent enough for you to land your 3-mana threats.

[Shimster]

Dear TMWA fellows,

I finally converted to Vintage! Due to budget reasons, I decided to run a mono red TMWA version, mostly focused on the old Sligh concept (e.g. its curve, its creature to burn ratio, etc.). Although I am able to play up to 15 proxies, I don't want to run one at all. In my opinions, it's like having a sports car for driving school lessons.

   // Lands
13   Snow-Covered Mountain
4   Mishra's Factory
1   Barbarian Ring

   // Creatures
4   Gorilla Shaman
4   Jackal Pup
4   Mogg Fanatic - Kills Dark Confidant and Goblin Welder on the spot, whereas Grim Lavamancer has to wait a round.
4   Magus of the Moon
4   Simian Spirit Guide

   // Spells
4   Lightning Bolt
4   Fireblast
2   Incinerate - Kills Juggernaut, Magus of the Future, Painter's Servant.
2   Smash to Smithereens - Crucible of Worlds, Karn, Platinum Angel, Smokestack, Time Vault or simply a Moxen to gain tempo.
4   Null Rod
4   Pyrostatic Pillar
1   Mana Crypt
1   Sol Ring

   // Sideboard
4   Martyr of Ashes
4   Greater Gargadon
3   Viashino Heretic
2   Pyroblast
2   Red Elemental Blast

The key concept is to disrupt your opponent as much as needed to win. Most disruption spells (apart from Null Rod, which is a house on its own) are aggressive enough to keep up a clock while delaying the opponent (Gorilla Shaman, Pyrostatic Pillar, Magus of the Moon).

I am not sold on the four slots I consider metagame slots (currently 2 Incinerate / 2 Smash to Smithereens). I tested Incinerate, Magma Jet, Price of Progress, Shrapnel Blast, Smash to Smithereens and most combinations.

I play in the western Germany metagame (i.e. Iserlohn and Dülmen): Many Drain decks (more control than combo), many Workshop decks (Stax, MUD), a lot more Oath than I'd like to have (hence the Greater Gargadon in the board), aggro (Goblins, Ichorid, Suicide) and some fastcombo (Grim Long).

What do you suggest to play in my metagame slot?

[Namingway]

I don't have any other prison pieces to be honest.  Just Mindscensor, Magus, Canonist, Glowrider, and Thorns, and maybe the odd Blood Moon or Rule of Law.

Perhaps the following changes can be made to my list:
-4 Sphere of Resistance
-3 Umezawa's Jitte
+4 Null Rod
+2 Blood Moon
+1 Plains

How does that sound?

[Myriad Games]

Sorry for the recent absence. I've been working like crazy lately. Here are my brief overall thoughts on the new post-Shards options for TMWA:

Burn got better by a bit.
Discard remains delightfully effective.
Smash to Smithereens is amazing, killing both Time Vault and Tezzeret in some instances.
Dealing with Oath will become a necessity, in addition to the usual culprits of combo, control, and prison.
Welcome back, Fish! Meet my little friend, TMWA. I love nothing more than playing against Fish with a good version of TMWA.
I'd like to see results from a mono red build of TMWA as well as black-red and white-red options.

Keep up the discussion and feedback, and keep on playing The Mountains Win Again!

[Troy_Costisick]

Dealing with Oath will become a necessity, in addition to the usual culprits of combo, control, and prison.

For me, this is the hardest matchup.  I can easuily design decks that handle combo, ichorid, stax, control, and fish, but I have real trouble with Oath- especially in mon-red versions.  What's the community's best advice when it comes to this type of match?

Peace,

-Troy

[Shimster]

As far as I can tell, mono red TMWA has got two ways to defeat Oath: Goblin Bombardment and Greater Gargadon. The first is really good in lists with many creatures to support the plan, while the second needs a lot of burn to work.

I really like Smash to Smithereens in my current list, which plays 4 copies of it (cut 2 Incinerate). Smashing Time Vault and Tezzeret with your opponents' pants down is a lot of fun.

btw. are there other European TMWA players around?

[nineisnoone]

Here is my current version of TMWA...

1 Mox Pearl   
1 Mox Ruby   
1 Mox Emerald
1 Strip Mine   
1 Maze of Ith   
4 Taiga      
4 Savannah   
4 Windswept Heath   
4 Wooded Foothills      

4 AEther Vial   
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Tarmogoyf   
4 Vexing Shusher   
4 Tin Street Hooligan   
2 Gaddock Teeg

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Isochron Scepter   
4 Abeyance
2 Eladamri's Call
4 Swords To Plowshears

Cards:
Cannonist + Tarmogofy = Perfect synergy with each other.  Cannonists limits power of a opposing turns, Tarmogoyf limits number of opposing turns.
Shusher - Anti-Chalice & Anti-counter spell. 
Hooligan - Answer Rod and assorted artifacts. Unfortunately, doesn't work with Vial.
Teeg - Great against many cards Teez/Nauseum/Tendrils/Explosives/Chalice.  Small disfunction with your own Chalice and Legendary keeps it low. 

Abeyance - Works very well with Cannonist.  If they counter it, they're done.  If they don't counter it they're done.  And it cantrips.  Works well with Shusher too, since you're just done.
Eldamari's Call - Instant speed, works well with Vial or Scepter, let's you tool-box answers.
Swords - Staple Card.

Vial - With Vial you can even play Chalice @ 2.  Plus it gets around Cannonist, and instant speed Shusher, Cannonist, Scourger, or 'Goyf are solid plays.  Unfortunately, Vial on Hooligan won't get you an Artifact kill.
Scepter - Abeyance/Call are both excellent cards on their own right, synergizing well with the other creatures, Sceptering them creates long term CA.
Chalice - Good.  Can't run Null Rod so this is the best bet.  Even if you get hit with this there is the chance of Shushing it into play.

SB is pretty much in the air. 

Swords is the better card, but it does stumble against Chalice @ 1 which this deck likes to play.  I would play Thorns, but I kind of want more Instants to imprint.  Chant could also be played because of the Strength of Scepter Chant.  Swords isn't that great of an imprint either.

I'm kind of thinking to switch Hooligans for Stingscourgers/Goblin Legionaires and Swords for Hide/Seeks.

[nineisnoone]

Pyrostatic Pillar: I ran this to stop Storm. After thinking it over, I am pretty sure that this is a great answer. However It doesn't play well with Thorn. On the other hand, Have 7 hate cards isn't a bad thing. I don't see one being more helpful then the other, so I am pretty that I can play both and just drop what ever I draw first. Sure Thorn makes it harder to play Pillar, but Pillar doesn't make it harder to play Thorn. Maybe my thinking on this is wrong, but that I why I am asking you guys for options.

I agree that this has been AMAZING.  I run it 4 of main deck at the moment.  It's great in anything other than another fish-style match-up or shops.  And if they don't run creatures, the damage that it deals to you is irrelevant.  And it ends up being at least another 2/2 bear, usually better.  Sure it can't block, but it can NOT be hit by Swords, it can NOT be hit by Hurkyl's.  I've found that to be really important.  Spheres, Thorn, Cannonist, Trinisphere, Chalice, Rod are all answered by Hurklys.  Creatures die to Swords. It's nice to have something that sticks around.

Has anyone looked at Dueergar Hedge-Mage? It's pretty much guaranteed to kill an artifact, making it a more expensive (but mono-colored) Hooligan.  In my version, I'm already splashing White, so it wouldn't be hard to get be able to get him to destroy an enchantment as well.  The thing is, I'm thinking I should just play some Grips in my sideboard, so I'm not sure how much I'd like him main.

[Namingway]

On the other hand, if you play Spheres, Canonists, Glowriders, Chalices, and other prison pieces, your opponent shouldn't be able to actually play (m)any spells, and therefore, s/he doesn't recieve any damage from Pyrostatic Pillar.

[Troy_Costisick]

On the other hand, if you play Spheres, Canonists, Glowriders, Chalices, and other prison pieces, your opponent shouldn't be able to actually play (m)any spells, and therefore, s/he doesn't recieve any damage from Pyrostatic Pillar.

Black Vise then?

[Namingway]

Black Vise then?

That would be a decent source of damage, but it's inhibited by Chalice @ 1, so if you play Chalice, it might not be as good.