Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable?

[bronxie]

is this deck going to be viable post rotation? in other words, anybody got a list? it gets hated by the same stuff that ichorid does, is it as resilliant?  SOMEBODY POST A LIST PLEASE

[Smmenen]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=24506

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Creatures
1 Eternal Witness
4 Worldgorger Dragon

Enchantments
3 Animate Dead
1 Dance Of The Dead
3 Necromancy

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Cunning Wish
4 Force Of Will
4 Intuition
3 Read The Runes
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
4 Deep Analysis
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
2 Flooded Strand
3 Forbidden Orchard
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
4 Bogardan Hellkite
4 Oath Of Druids
2 Chain Of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stroke Of Genius

[bronxie]

awesome, thanks.  Does it get hated out too much or still viable?

[policehq]

Theoretically, since Ichorid did not get any collateral damage from the restrictions, Dragon would be a terrible idea. Many sideboards and maindecks were already geared to disrupt Ichorid's graveyard before the restriction announcement...

[c dizzle]

New WGD builds will look significantly different than the one Steve posted. Dragon needs to cut some cards to make room for some extra disruption. I'll post my list after I run it through some tournaments, but I will say that all things old are new again...

[fury]

I agree that the list needs some changes, especially on the sideboard. The core of dicemanx's version is still viable, but we should pack more stuff to pass ichorid and Workshop easier. And I'm convinced that we can run non transformal sideboards with success, even against Ichorid. We should also take care of any aggro-control build, where the gravehate is still present.

As other players, I will give here the results of my tests.

[DarkfnTemplar]

New WGD builds will look significantly different than the one Steve posted. Dragon needs to cut some cards to make room for some extra disruption. I'll post my list after I run it through some tournaments, but I will say that all things old are new again...

Why do you think he posted that list? 

[Dante]

New WGD builds will look significantly different than the one Steve posted. Dragon needs to cut some cards to make room for some extra disruption. I'll post my list after I run it through some tournaments, but I will say that all things old are new again...

Why do you think he posted that list? 

Because it's a list that saw success that wasn't hit by any restrictions and probably a good place to start.   

[bronxie]

very true.  how do we make it resiliant to hate?

[meadbert]

I test with Dragon quite frequently.  As far as making it resiliant to hate, I have two suggestions.

First, run Tinker->DSC in the main.  DSC can be discarded by Bazaar with Leyline out and still shuffle back.

Second, make sure you have access to 4x Chain of Vapor post board.  I used to run 4 Scroll and 4 Chain after sideboarding, but now only 1 Scroll is legal so I am not sure how that should be modified.

[bronxie]

I test with Dragon quite frequently.  As far as making it resiliant to hate, I have two suggestions.

First, run Tinker->DSC in the main.  DSC can be discarded by Bazaar with Leyline out and still shuffle back.

Second, make sure you have access to 4x Chain of Vapor post board.  I used to run 4 Scroll and 4 Chain after sideboarding, but now only 1 Scroll is legal so I am not sure how that should be modified.

agreed.  what about echoing truth?

[Vintar]

Hello ! new writer here but I read for a long time.

Dragon is indeed something that could work, now that Flash is out.

I agree to the 4 Chain of vapor post-side, the cheapest way to get rid of a tormod / leyline before comboing.
Chalice is very good too, especially at 1, to prevent extirpate and duress effects.
I don't know if Xantid swarm could be more useful, especially if we don't use the Oath sideboard... it seems still good.

About echoing truth, it's useful only to fight against EtW and multiple leyline (which doesn't happen too often, hopefully).
A single one to tutor up should be enough.

And I would play a bounce maindeck. Who knows ? ^^

[dicemanx]

I would very likely include Oona over Witness as Oona helps out with FoW and makes for a decent alternate reanimate target.

I don't think I would change the deck very much - I would not add more disruption at the expense of combo pieces. There is little to worry about from most maindecks, as game 1 anti-graveyard strategies have diminished in importance now that Flash is gone.

For the SB, I'd strongly consider transformational approaches again (either oath or Mask) to fight post SB anti-graveyard cards. Alternately, I'd just go with 4 bounce spells.

I also expect that this deck will be talked about but rarely played, which is perfect for those actually wanting to do well with it.

[bronxie]

I don't think I would change the deck very much - I would not add more disruption at the expense of combo pieces. There is little to worry about from most maindecks, as game 1 anti-graveyard strategies have diminished in importance now that Flash is gone.
...
I also expect that this deck will be talked about but rarely played, which is perfect for those actually wanting to do well with it.

On the contrary, i expect there to be a lot more hate now that ichorid is going to be the top deck in the format.  i agree that it will be rarely played, but talked about a lot.  what is the transformational board, what does it look like?  and what exactly is disk (sorry to ask a noob question)

[dicemanx]

On the contrary, i expect there to be a lot more hate now that ichorid is going to be the top deck in the format.

What changed to make Ichorid a "top deck in the format" all of a sudden? I anticipate that Ichorid will be rarely played and just as vulnerable as before to SB anti-graveyard strategies; consequently it would be a bad idea to dedicate maindeck slots to graveyard hate when it looks like the vast majority of archetypes once the restrictions kick in will not be graveyard dependent. WGD in turn doesn't need so many answers main - just answers in the SB.

If however it turns out that many decks do pack answers to WGD in their maindecks, then the proper solution is to not play WGD. I think people get too enchanted with the idea of cramming disruption into the deck at the cost of combo pieces which weakens the deck unnecessarily. You have to focus on the deck's strengths, not try to cover all of your bases - that is impossible. Pick what you lose to, and focus on the strengths against the rest.

[fury]

To summary the main hate Dragon must face :

* Leyline of the Void
* Extirpate
* any bounce (chain of vapor)
* Tormod's Crypt
* Swords to Plowshares
* Stifle
* any instant which removes Dragon

I may have forgotten some

This was also the case before the last restrictions. So the analyse towards hate is nearly the same for Dragon. What restrictions have really changed : the Flash restriction, which makes the Flash archetype nearly dead. This might give Dragon a new place in the metagame.

(By the way, Chalice @1 doesn't protect the combo, the chalice will return with zero counters after the first loop.)

As dicemanx said, we must be careful by not weakening the core of the combo with hate management cards. Experience shows that we need only a few cards to prepare space for the combo ; the aim is not to manage the board, but to combo off safely. The main list is quite a complete version, it's difficult to change anything. But for the sideboard, new ideas can be found. The transformal side has some advantages, especially the surprise effect, but this is known now by most players. The Oath side may still have interest, but the Masknought's one is often quicker (despite the metagame will pack a lot of artifact destruction, so we might find another solution for the sideboard).

[bronxie]

On the contrary, i expect there to be a lot more hate now that ichorid is going to be the top deck in the format.

What changed to make Ichorid a "top deck in the format" all of a sudden? I anticipate that Ichorid will be rarely played and just as vulnerable as before to SB anti-graveyard strategies; consequently it would be a bad idea to dedicate maindeck slots to graveyard hate when it looks like the vast majority of archetypes once the restrictions kick in will not be graveyard dependent. WGD in turn doesn't need so many answers main - just answers in the SB.

If however it turns out that many decks do pack answers to WGD in their maindecks, then the proper solution is to not play WGD. I think people get too enchanted with the idea of cramming disruption into the deck at the cost of combo pieces which weakens the deck unnecessarily. You have to focus on the deck's strengths, not try to cover all of your bases - that is impossible. Pick what you lose to, and focus on the strengths against the rest.

Good point.  thats why playing an all out hate deck doesnt work, and thats where i messed up playing fish a while ago.  i devoted too many slots to certain decks and they were dead draws against others.

[dicemanx]

I may have forgotten some

One card that is particularly fearsome is Faerie Macabre, although the card doesn't have the ability to make WGD lose its permanents. Fortunately, I anticipate that people will play 0 Macabres in anything outside Fish archetypes because it doesn't affect Ichorid and might not be good enough to affect Yawgmoth's Will enough. I guess the question then is if people will pick up Fish again versus this new meta and if the Fish decks will run the Faeries. My guess is no due to the BB in the casting cost.

[Harlequin]

I may have forgotten some

Planar Void makes it not possible to win via Bazaar, and complicates the win via Oona.  Honestly, I think Fish would do well to run Planar Void over Macabre.  Flash killed Planar Void.  With Flash out of the way: Ichorid can't dodge it, Dragon is on the ropes against it, Crucible can't dodge it, Yawg dodge it if it's early enough, Welder can avoid it - but it does so at a cost, AK can try but 9 times out of 10 AK is a dead draw against it.  For 1 mana its not that bad.

[fury]

One card that is particularly fearsome is Faerie Macabre, although the card doesn't have the ability to make WGD lose its permanents. Fortunately, I anticipate that people will play 0 Macabres in anything outside Fish archetypes because it doesn't affect Ichorid and might not be good enough to affect Yawgmoth's Will enough. I guess the question then is if people will pick up Fish again versus this new meta and if the Fish decks will run the Faeries. My guess is no due to the BB in the casting cost.

Indeed. To make a comparison, when people played Coffin Purge, it was an annoying hate card, but Dragon had answers to this. The fact that Faerie Macabre is activated through a activated ability may be more difficult to counter, but with Stifle or an instant reanim spell, Dragon can go through.

Planar Void makes it not possible to win via Bazaar, and complicates the win via Oona.  Honestly, I think Fish would do well to run Planar Void over Macabre.  Flash killed Planar Void.  With Flash out of the way: Ichorid can't dodge it, Dragon is on the ropes against it, Crucible can't dodge it, Yawg dodge it if it's early enough, Welder can avoid it - but it does so at a cost, AK can try but 9 times out of 10 AK is a dead draw against it.  For 1 mana its not that bad.

That's why, I think that, if Dragon doesn't run a transformal sideboard, it should pack some enchantment removals. As artifact ones.

[bronxie]

so basically we are saying that post sb its almost impossible to win with dragon combo?  transform board or lots of enchant hate is the only way to win.

[fury]

so basically we are saying that post sb its almost impossible to win with dragon combo?  transform board or lots of enchant hate is the only way to win.

No, it's not impossible. I will develop a non transformal approach in an upcoming article.

[bronxie]

fantastic.  is the maindeck posted above good enough to start working on?

[Dante]

I may have forgotten some

Planar Void makes it not possible to win via Bazaar, and complicates the win via Oona.  ....

This is untrue, you can sculp your hand to include Dragon + win and cast Necromancy during the opponent's turn.  One Bazaar activation will drop both into the yard and in response to the PV triggers you cast Necromancy.  During the loop, when the dragon returns to the yard when Necromancy is removed from game, the PV and Dragon Leaves Play happen "at the same time" so the active player (opponent)'s trigger (from his PV) goes on the stack first, so the LP ability (bring back Necro and start more triggers) will always resolve first.

If your deck has other instants like intuition and entomb you can do other tricks too to deal with a maindeck Planar Void rather than need to get both Dragon and win in hand first.

Dante

[Hydra]

I may have forgotten some

Planar Void makes it not possible to win via Bazaar, and complicates the win via Oona.  ....

This is untrue, you can sculp your hand to include Dragon + win and cast Necromancy during the opponent's turn.  One Bazaar activation will drop both into the yard and in response to the PV triggers you cast Necromancy.  During the loop, when the dragon returns to the yard when Necromancy is removed from game, the PV and Dragon Leaves Play happen "at the same time" so the active player (opponent)'s trigger (from his PV) goes on the stack first, so the LP ability (bring back Necro and start more triggers) will always resolve first.

If your deck has other instants like intuition and entomb you can do other tricks too to deal with a maindeck Planar Void rather than need to get both Dragon and win in hand first.

Dante

Don't forget that Cunning Wish (which is probably the best choice for your other kill card besides Witness/Oona) can fetch you a bounce spell game 1.

[Harlequin]

Thats why I was careful to say "Via Bazaar" and "Complicates" the win with Oona.  It means you have to have whatever you plan to win with in-hand when you cast Necromancy.  Planar Void is extremely unforgiving If you get outcountered or disrupted in another way - you have to start over from nothing.  The point is with Planar Void on the board you have to -really- win to win.  Not to mention still work around bounce/removal and stifle from the other player.  If they duress your Necromancy in hand while you are digging for Intuition - your down to 2 win conditions left in your deck...

[bronxie]

so now the question becomes... do we run transformational board or do we run a simple answers board?

[nineisnoone]

I think non-transformational has more potential.  There are just too many narrow WGD cards.  Namely 4x Dragon and 7x Reanimate. Read the Runes is decent, but wouldn't be played in anything other than WGD ideally and Deep Analysis isn't great if you can't there is no Flashback on it.  Intuition isn't even all that great in most other decks.

Hating WGD isn't like hating Manaless Ichorid.  Namely because WGD runs mana.  Shutting off my graveyard cuts off a resource, but it doesn't cut off my ability to play.  I can still find bounce to get rid of Leyline and the combo off.  So while there will be a greater prevalence of hate for it in SB's now.  I don't think people will malign their decks to shove in hate cards they way like they do for Manaless Ichorid.  Intuition can still tutor for any hate we run 3x of.  I'm thinking to try and fix it to UBw and running 3x Return to Dust in the board.  I also think Extirpate is excellent for us due our ability to win attrition fights.

[fury]

Intuition can still tutor for any 3x hate we need.

Fetch=> Tropical Island + Mana Crypt => intuition for 3 Reverent Silence cleans all Leyline of the Void on the board, and this on turn one. But as some players think, if a lot of builds pack hate maindeck, it's difficult to go through in game 1.

[Purple Hat]

the only truely problematic card I see is extripate.  whether you go after that with xantids, more duress effects or some other method is still a question that I don't really have an answer for yet.  otherwise dragon seems to be reasonably well positioned to go after the current meta since it beats up on things like Control Slaver and Stax.

I'm not a big fan of reverent silence in dragon because there are problem perminants that aren't enchantments that you'd like to bounce (orb of dreams, true believer, waterfront bouncer, platinum angel if not playing helkite).  Since you have mana, unlike ichorid, you should play better answers to these threats like chain of vapor.