The Deck post-restriction *updated/expanded post*

[masterK]

*Note:  I have expanded on the deck analysis and included more information as requested.*

The recent round of restrictions (or, perhaps I should say "slaughterhouse massacre") has opened the door to plenty of guesswork about what might be the new dominant decks...  It was speculated that Stacks and Ichorid would be the new powerhouses, or perhaps a rogue deck of yore.  Brings a wistful tear to my eye of many victories earned against impossible odds...  ah, yes...  But enough of that, back to the topic at hand.

I will maintain that the time is ripe for a return of The Deck in its original incarnation (more-or-less).

List of Wiseman's original list (1996 era) is provided below for reference:

   1 Black Lotus
   2 Disrupting Scepter
   1 Jayemdae Tome
   1 Mirror Universe
   1 Mox Emerald
   1 Mox Jet
   1 Mox Pearl
   1 Mox Ruby
   1 Mox Sapphire
   1 Sol Ring

   1 Demonic Tutor

   1 Amnesia
   1 Ancestral Recall
   1 Braingeyser
   2 Counterspell
   4 Mana Drain
   1 Timetwister
   1 Timewalk
   1 Recall

   1 Regrowth

   2 Red Elemental Blast

   4 Disenchant
   2 Moat
   2 Serra Angel
   4 Swords to Plowshares

   4 City of Brass
   4 Island
   1 Library of Alexandria
   3 Plains
   3 Strip Mine
   4 Tundra
   2 Volcanic Island

Using this list as a basis, we will see that already it is metagamed against the field to a large degree.

Point 1:  Copious amounts of basic lands.  This list runs 7 basics already; with the ever-present threat of Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon this is a significant threat.  It is also excellent against Stacks.  This, can of course be updated using the new Onslaught fetchlands to diversify the mana base while at the same time retaining all the relavant advantages of the original high basics count.  This allows you to lead with a basic or a fetchland versus Stacks and thereby you doth ramp your mana up in a way that prevents them from locking you down (with Spheres or Crucibles + Wasteland).  Not a pretty picture, and not a strong place to be.

Point 2:  Combo has slowed significantly with the loss of Brainstorm.  This means that the traditional both control, and yes, combo killers of Disrupting Scepter and Amnesia/Mindtwist are now extremely potent.  I.e, they can't hide their crucial cards in response to the Twist/Amnesia with a brainstorm with anywhere near the consistency that they used to.  Furthermore they are overall much slower, which gives you time to drop a Scepter and work their hand over.  I.e., with the current environment being much slower, you can play the grinding slow-incremental card advantage game which The Deck specializes in.

Point 3:  With the loss of fast combo, we can definately expect a return of aggro.  The 4 Plowshares and 2 Moats make an excellent choice against this.  It has been speculated by many that Sly will make a strong return in the new environment; plow and moat are always good against such decks.

Point 4:  Maindeck Timetwister, combined with Regrowth, drive the nail into the coffin of Ichorid.  I feel this requires no further explanation.

Point 5:  Four maindeck disenchant effects make for yet more potent offense against Stacks.  It is essential to be able to hit artifacts early against Stacks; 4 + the 2 tutors makes this almost a no-brainer.  It also smokes Oath like a punk and allows you to play the control  game while they are still floundering in the realm of aggro-combo, and losing badly.

Yet, allowances must be made for the times.  To modernize The Deck whilst retaining its essential advantages I would propose the following:

   1 Black Lotus
   2 Disrupting Scepter
   1 Treasure Trove (Tome replacement; stronger)
   1 Zuran Orb (better than Mirror Universe post 6th-edition rules; great against Sly/Goblins)
   1 Mox Emerald
   1 Mox Jet
   1 Mox Pearl
   1 Mox Ruby
   1 Mox Sapphire
   1 Sol Ring

   1 Demonic Tutor

   1 Mind Twist (better than Amnesia)
   1 Ancestral Recall
   1 Braingeyser
   2 Counterspell
   4 Mana Drain
   1 Timetwister
   1 Vampiric Tutor (tutoring > take an extra turn)
   1 Mystical Tutor (tutoring > bad Yawg's Will; no Yawg's Will because of Twister)

   1 Regrowth

   2 Red Elemental Blast (metagame choice; could be Leyline or Tormod's Crypt)

   4 Disenchant
   2 Moat
   2 Serra Angel
   4 Swords to Plowshares

   4 City of Brass
   4 Flooded Strand
   2 Island
   1 Library of Alexandria
   1 Plains
   1 Strip Mine
   2 Wasteland
   4 Tundra
   2 Volcanic Island

The Sideboard would, of course, be completely metagame dependent.

I welcome your thoughts!

-> (masterK) <-

[Tha Gunslinga]

Treasure Trove dies to REB; wouldn't you rather run Jayemdae?

[Moxlotus]

Point 2:  Combo has slowed significantly with the loss of Brainstorm.  This means that the traditional both control, and yes, combo killers of Disrupting Scepter and Amnesia/Mindtwist are now extremely potent.  I.e, they can't hide their crucial cards in response to the Twist/Amnesia with a brainstorm with anywhere near the consistency that they used to.  Furthermore they are overall much slower, which gives you time to drop a Scepter and work their hand over.  I.e., with the current environment being much slower, you can play the grinding slow-incremental card advantage game which The Deck specializes in.

Have you played against storm combo?  It hasn't slowed down very much.  It still has a turn 2-3 kill on average.

Point 4:  Maindeck Timetwister, combined with Regrowth, drive the nail into the coffin of Ichorid.  I feel this requires no further explanation

I feel that needs a heckof a lot more explanation.  How is a single twister going to kill Ichorid?  First you need to find your twister.  And then it needs to be cast before ichorid therapies away your hand.  And then if you do cast it, so what?  They just start bazaaring again.

Point 5:  Four maindeck disenchant effects make for yet more potent offense against Stacks.  It is essential to be able to hit artifacts early against Stacks; 4 + the 2 tutors makes this almost a no-brainer.  It also smokes Oath like a punk and allows you to play the control  game while they are still floundering in the realm of aggro-combo, and losing badly.

Stax will probably be trying to play Chalice@2 against you.  Do you really want to be playing artifact removal that costs 2?

You also have essentially no draw engine and woudl get completely outdrawn by Slaver or Oath.  Disenchants and Swords don't matter when your opponent has outdrawn  you and can counter your answers.

Have you played this deck against modern type 1 decks?

[Anusien]

Swords to Plowshares is pretty terrible against modern aggro decks.  I doubt you want 6 anti-aggro cards in the main though.

Modern control decks don't gain incremental advantage that Scepter can shut down.  Tapping down main phase with Scepter seems like it is asking for them to pitch excess lands that Brainstorm won't let them put back and then get buried under Intuition->AK or Thirst for Knowledge.  Plus, invested CA that doesn't beat down hasn't been good in years.  I don't know why you think you need this sort of effect; I feel like Duress or Thoughtseize might just be straight up better because you can take the card that matters.

Zuran Orb: Why do you think you need a lifegain effect?  If you want one, it's Pulse of the Fields, but I'm not convinced you want one.  Modern aggro can put out men faster than you can gain life.  Versus beatdown decks I want to develop my board in a hurry and win the game, not put myself behind on lands.

You want Time Walk and Yawgmoth's Will.  These are both pretty essential cards.  For one thing, Time Walk turns land and mox into Drain mana, and Will lets you just win.  The Will versus 2 Blessing argument ended infinite years ago; Will is it.

2 Serra Angel: Really?  Are you joking?  Not only are there a million better candidates (like Exalted Angel or Decree of Justice), but Tinker/Colossus is much faster and probably straight up better.  Plus some of those cards are at least decent drain sinks.

Treasure Trove?  You meant Fact or Fiction or Skeletal Scrying, right?  You can't even drain into Trove effectively.

Where are the fetchlands?  City of Brass is antiquated.

Regrowth would be fine if you had a bomb to get back with it.  As it is, it's going to be the 5th Swords to Plowshares or something equally terrible.  Also, if you think Regrowth is good.... Will is 5 Regrowths.  Seriously, run Will.

If you want to explore Keeper, read some of the things Zherbus has done recently.  But honestly, why Keeper?

Oh, P.S., you're never going to beat Ichorid game 1.  You simply aren't equipped to race them, and Timetwister is a Time Walk at best.  You might draw them into Bazaar #2, which would be game over.

[RJ]

I can't believe that you posted a blue based control deck without Force of Will...That is just hilarious.

When you think about Keeper, you need to stay true to the concept, not the list and actual cards.  This "updated" list will not be competitive with most any deck designed since 1999.  In today's metagame, you don't have 4 targets for disenchant, unless you count moxen.  And if you spend a turn using a disenchant to hit a mox you are either very far ahead or really far behind.

You are even behind updates to "The Deck" itself, which at least exchanged one Moat for one Abyss.  This is a much better aggro solution, although modern aggro has figured out that using artifacts is good.  While Moat may hit modern aggro, it is difficult to cast with 9 spheres running around. 

Serra Angel as a win condition is a joke.  Like Anusien said Tinker-->DSC is much better as is Morphling or Meloku.  This is weak and cannot be defended.

I definitely think that there is room for a metagame deck like this, but this list does not address the weaknesses of the percieved metagame as it exists. (Ichorid, Shop Aggro, and Combo).

[zeus-online]

Hmm now that i think about, maybe i should start killing people with serra angel in T1...HUMILIATION! 

Sorry, i have played too many shooters.


City of brass might actually not be all that bad now, since you don't really need the shuffle effect from fetchlands, but it still makes it harder to survive against early wastelands.

If you really want maindeck answers to creatures i'd go with:

1 Tinker
1 DSC
Technically not an answer, but's its alot faster then most other creaturres.
2 StP
1 Balance
2-3 Cunning wish.

You shouldn't need more then that to beat most creature decks. Meloku can also answer most creature swarms, and morphling can to some extend, but he really isn't all that good any more.

Any disruptive package should start with:
4 Force of will
4 Mana drain

And be supplemented by some of these:
Duress
Thoughtseize
Disrupt
Spell snare
Mana leak

I'd probably go with duress or mana leak, or a combination of effects. The REB's in the original list are also fine, but really...They don't do anything against combo, and 4 FoW is rarely enough.

Anyway, good luck on trying to update a 12 year old deck.

/Zeus

[masterK]

Treasure Trove dies to REB; wouldn't you rather run Jayemdae?

Well you raise a valid point I suppose, but on the whole a treasure trove (when dropped late game) more than makes up for its disadvantages to Tome.  Especially since you should have Sceptered away their REB's by then.

[masterK]

Point 2:  Combo has slowed significantly with the loss of Brainstorm.  This means that the traditional both control, and yes, combo killers of Disrupting Scepter and Amnesia/Mindtwist are now extremely potent.  I.e, they can't hide their crucial cards in response to the Twist/Amnesia with a brainstorm with anywhere near the consistency that they used to.  Furthermore they are overall much slower, which gives you time to drop a Scepter and work their hand over.  I.e., with the current environment being much slower, you can play the grinding slow-incremental card advantage game which The Deck specializes in.

Have you played against storm combo?  It hasn't slowed down very much.  It still has a turn 2-3 kill on average.

I don't doubt you so much but I think you're talking about goldfishing...  With the countermagic and other disruption (Mind twist, disenchant) we are now packing in The Deck I highly doubt this is a stable kill average.

Point 4:  Maindeck Timetwister, combined with Regrowth, drive the nail into the coffin of Ichorid.  I feel this requires no further explanation

I feel that needs a heckof a lot more explanation.  How is a single twister going to kill Ichorid?  First you need to find your twister.  And then it needs to be cast before ichorid therapies away your hand.  And then if you do cast it, so what?  They just start bazaaring again.[/qoute]

Well, they can Bazaar once, but they won't be able to dredge (i.e., develop their board position).  Then you drop some moxen/land, tutor for the regrowth, regrow the Twister, and repeat.  You will be twistering so much that they can't hope for any kind of Stable development.  Moat will eventually come down and end the game (this is of course all pre-board).

Point 5:  Four maindeck disenchant effects make for yet more potent offense against Stacks.  It is essential to be able to hit artifacts early against Stacks; 4 + the 2 tutors makes this almost a no-brainer.  It also smokes Oath like a punk and allows you to play the control  game while they are still floundering in the realm of aggro-combo, and losing badly.

Stax will probably be trying to play Chalice@2 against you.  Do you really want to be playing artifact removal that costs 2?

Let them try to get Chalice at 2 out.  4cc sounds like Drain -> Mindtwist from where I'm sittin', pardner.

You also have essentially no draw engine and woudl get completely outdrawn by Slaver or Oath.  Disenchants and Swords don't matter when your opponent has outdrawn  you and can counter your answers.

Have you played this deck against modern type 1 decks?

No draw engine??  What is the Trove to you?

I have done testing, yes.

[zeus-online]

I don't believe for a second that you've tested against long, you have almost no relevant cards against them:

wasteland/strip mine - These guys work, but they won't stop the deck cold, and since your only disruption against them is either  or  you'll be setting your own disruption back by using them.

Counterspell/Mana drain - How is  gonna be good against a deck that kills turn 1-3, you'd need some other disruption to last long enough for these cards to be relevant.

REB - Long plays around 7 blue spells now, so REB won't do much.

About chalice:
Workshop, Mox, Chalice for 2...Boom! GG. You'll probably never get to drain it.

Not trying to pick on you or anything, but you really need to work on something better.

/Zeus

[masterK]

Swords to Plowshares is pretty terrible against modern aggro decks.  I doubt you want 6 anti-aggro cards in the main though.

Que?  StP, terrible against modern aggro?  Are you serious?  1 mana to get rid of anything that's played today sounds pretty nice to me...

Modern control decks don't gain incremental advantage that Scepter can shut down.  Tapping down main phase with Scepter seems like it is asking for them to pitch excess lands that Brainstorm won't let them put back and then get buried under Intuition->AK or Thirst for Knowledge.  Plus, invested CA that doesn't beat down hasn't been good in years.  I don't know why you think you need this sort of effect; I feel like Duress or Thoughtseize might just be straight up better because you can take the card that matters.

A couple of points as I feel your post here is filled with a lot of misinformation and/or lack of understanding of how The Deck functions.  Firstly, the Brainstorm argument you raised is invalid (as I addressed in my original post) because Brainstorm, now restricted, can't be relied upon.  Secondly, Duress and Thoughtseize don't accord card advantage like the Scepter does and therefore are not in accordance with the basic principles of The Deck.

Zuran Orb: Why do you think you need a lifegain effect?  If you want one, it's Pulse of the Fields, but I'm not convinced you want one.  Modern aggro can put out men faster than you can gain life.  Versus beatdown decks I want to develop my board in a hurry and win the game, not put myself behind on lands.

The Zorb is mostly anti-tendrils nowadays, as well as after you've stabilized with a Moat so that they don't burn/PoP you out.

You want Time Walk and Yawgmoth's Will.  These are both pretty essential cards.  For one thing, Time Walk turns land and mox into Drain mana, and Will lets you just win.  The Will versus 2 Blessing argument ended infinite years ago; Will is it.

Yawg's will is an anti-combo with Twister, which is essential to The Deck's longterm strategy.  Time Walk isn't really that good as in essence its just a cantrip that lets you untap your lands in this deck (if you used the attack phase it might be different)...

2 Serra Angel: Really?  Are you joking?  Not only are there a million better candidates (like Exalted Angel or Decree of Justice), but Tinker/Colossus is much faster and probably straight up better.  Plus some of those cards are at least decent drain sinks.

No offense, but I can't believe what I'm reading when someone suggests utter jank (again, no offense but this is really my opinion) like Decree of Justice.  Tinker Collosus is bad because it's card disadvantage (see primers such as Rakso's primer on The Deck).

Treasure Trove?  You meant Fact or Fiction or Skeletal Scrying, right?  You can't even drain into Trove effectively.

Trove is most excellent at the long control game where The Deck specializes.

Where are the fetchlands?  City of Brass is antiquated.

4 Flooded Strands are in the list...  (I think you overlooked them)

Regrowth would be fine if you had a bomb to get back with it.  As it is, it's going to be the 5th Swords to Plowshares or something equally terrible.  Also, if you think Regrowth is good.... Will is 5 Regrowths.  Seriously, run Will.

Ancestral Recall?  Timetwister?  Treasure Trove?  These are all "bombs" (as you call them) which Regrowth gives you another shot at using.

If you want to explore Keeper, read some of the things Zherbus has done recently.  But honestly, why Keeper?

I feel it is the most flexible, powerful deck in the hands of an experienced player....

Oh, P.S., you're never going to beat Ichorid game 1.  You simply aren't equipped to race them, and Timetwister is a Time Walk at best.  You might draw them into Bazaar #2, which would be game over.

Please see my quotes above for rebuttal of these arguments (which I am sorry seem to stem from a lack of experience playing against Ichorid).

-> (masterK) <-

[Moxlotus]

Trove is most excellent at the long control game where The Deck specializes.
 

You need to survive the early game.  And without force of Will you won't.  I'm not talking about goldfishing.  Long is fast.  REB is practically worthless as is disenchant.  If I'm playing Long I should be able to kill turn 2 or 3 through a counter.  If I couldn't, I probably should have mulled the hand.  I thought the deck was done with the restriction of BS.  I was wrong.  It only got better.

Well, they can Bazaar once, but they won't be able to dredge (i.e., develop their board position).  Then you drop some moxen/land, tutor for the regrowth, regrow the Twister, and repeat.  You will be twistering so much that they can't hope for any kind of Stable development.  Moat will eventually come down and end the game (this is of course all pre-board).

You seriously think that you'll be able to sit there and tutor up Twister, tutor up Regrowth, cast twister, ad nauseum? Starting on turn 2?  Through their unmasks, chalices, and/or leylines they played on turn 1?

No draw engine??  What is the Trove to you?

1 card that costs 8 mana before the first card is drawn. 

Let them try to get Chalice at 2 out.  4cc sounds like Drain -> Mindtwist from where I'm sittin', pardner.

So when they go turn 1 shop, mox, chalice for 2 how exactly are you casting drain?

But by all means, take the deck to a tournament and win if you believe us all to be wrong.  But there is a reason why the deck has been dead for years.  Brainstorm wasn't that reason either.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ masker k.

1. You do realize you’re supposed to cycle decree, right?

2. You do realize the long can tendril's you for lethal +1 storm for each land you have out, in the event you have orb out (and on turn 2 or three, that 2-3 storm, not too hard considering your control package).

3. Trading tinker in hand + mox on the table for and 11 turn 2 is definitely OK. There is a reason people have been playing it, and it has definitely won its fair share of torments (and before you tell me you can't put it back if you draw it, you can still cast thirst for knowledge in the unlikely event that you draw it).

4. Do you realize the amount of card advantage yawgmoth's will creates (definitely more than 7 a lot of the time)? It is definitely better than the symmetrical effect of twister in this deck, and the 0 card advantage provided by regrowth.

5. Time walk allows you to makes a a series of plays to put you in favorable position with out needing to tap out to your opponents game winning sorcery speed plays. You realize how huge this is against things like, shop, long, oath, and fish. Right?

6. Treasure trove. You realize your not running brainstorm, or ponder, or scroll. Ponder and brainstrom are both AT LEAST 8 times as efficient as this card! Your probably thinking, “but hvnd3rd y34r h3x, both of those cards can only be used once, and provide no real + to hand size. I can use treasure trove multiple times." As some one else mentions u need a  mana investment to net 0 to hand (and that card you draw is not always going to be good). I you will never activate trove more than once in 99% of the serious t1 games your play. That 1% of the time is when your opponent top decks 13 dead cards in a row.

7. When asked why this deck, you responded "I feel it is the most flexible, powerful deck in the hands of an experienced player....” Honestly this is not you


Go to the internet, or preferably your local card shop, and find some seasoned and current t1 players. Play a few games. You won't win any, but your find out what works, or in this case, why things don't work. If you keep a level head and an open mind they’ll elaborate on things for you if you ask. Even just watching two players will probably teach you a lot about the speed and efficiency of the game.

[Tha Gunslinga]

[Negator13]

Yeah you guys are being trolled so hard I can't even believe it. Pretty sure he wins this thread

[Anusien]

Going back on topic, is there a reason to prefer a strategy like The Deck instead of CS?  Both are control decks aimed to beat other control decks, but CS has the ability to just win with Tinker or Thirst for Knowledge + Goblin Welder.  Do people just hold onto The Deck because of nostalgia or because they think White might not suck?

[hitman]

In short, no.  There's no broken factor and it's poorly equipped to find the right answer at the right time.

[Samite Healer]

Wow.  I have lots to say about this deck...

1) Why is there no Balance?  Not only is it the most powerful white card ever printed, it allows you to setup additional insane plays with the Zuran Orb you're running (which isn't necessary anyway).

2) Disrupting Scepter is so past it's day in usefulness, it's not even close to funny.  Mind Twist is unrestricted now, so even additional copies of that would be more useful than a 6 mana investment for them to discard a card of their choice.  Yes, the old school "theory" from The Deck years ago would warrant a permanent source of card advantage such as the stick; however, it makes no sense in the current environment.

3) Mind Spring is flat out better than Braingeyser because it can't be Misdirected (and I'm sure you won't be killing someone with Braingeyser).

4) As people stated already, Treasure Trove is not worth the investment.  Even I have run this card in the past, but when I did I was running Academy and Mind Over Matter to cycle through my entire deck if I needed to or generate mana - and that was six to eight years ago.  Thirst for Knowledge, Intuition + AK, or any number of newer draw engines would net you better card to resource quality than sinking mana into TT, not to mention the other synergies that such draw engines provide coincidentally.

5) No "Yawgmoth's Will because of Twister" is ridiculous!  Even if you HAD to run Timetwister in your deck, this doesn't mean you don't run one of the most broken cards in history in your deck, nor does it mean you cast your Timetwister when you can lock the game up with Will if you have it.

6) Since there aren't many enchantments you need to worry about in this metagame, you might as well run Ancient Grudge instead of Disenchant.  I hear two-for-ones are quite, especially since you already support a 5-color manabase.  At the very least, you could drop two Disenchant for two Ancient Grudge.

7) If you have Wastelands and fetchlands, it would fall well within "The Deck" theory of incremental card advantage to run a Crucible of Worlds.

8) You mention two "metagame slots" that could be Leyline of the Void - I'd run either four Leylines or zero, not two. If I did want to run less than four slots in the maindeck dedicated to graveyard hate, I'd run Tormod's Crypt.

9) A control deck with no Force of Will seems misguided to say the least.  There are still enough combo decks and "I win" cards in the format that warrant its inclusion.

10) Time Walk is more than just "take another turn."  It effectively reads, "play land and mox turn one, take another turn.  Make your land drop, and get UU online so you can cast countermagic and not lose the game."

There's so much more to mention and talk about, but that should provide you with a decent bit of information to think about at the least.  Every once in awhile it's nice to take a look at past strategies and update them to determine if they are viable in a new metagame; however, it seems as if you've just taken the old skeleton from 10 years ago and added a few new cards without compensating for how the environment has really changed.

[zeus-online]

Going back on topic, is there a reason to prefer a strategy like The Deck instead of CS?  Both are control decks aimed to beat other control decks, but CS has the ability to just win with Tinker or Thirst for Knowledge + Goblin Welder.  Do people just hold onto The Deck because of nostalgia or because they think White might not suck?

I'll chime in on that one...The deck/Keeper/3cc/4cc has a different set of weaknesses and strengths then CS, Hulk, Painter and drain tendrils (Which seems to be the more "modern" drain decks right now)

Which means that in some meta-games it might be a better choice, while the ultimate weakness is that it has no way to just end the game. (Other then going tinker, walk, will, walk i suppose)

The deck posted in this thread is horribly flawed though, so if you are refferíng to this particular decklist, then the answer is no.

/Zeus

[Anusien]

Going back on topic, is there a reason to prefer a strategy like The Deck instead of CS?  Both are control decks aimed to beat other control decks, but CS has the ability to just win with Tinker or Thirst for Knowledge + Goblin Welder.  Do people just hold onto The Deck because of nostalgia or because they think White might not suck?

I'll chime in on that one...The deck/Keeper/3cc/4cc has a different set of weaknesses and strengths then CS, Hulk, Painter and drain tendrils (Which seems to be the more "modern" drain decks right now)

Which means that in some meta-games it might be a better choice, while the ultimate weakness is that it has no way to just end the game. (Other then going tinker, walk, will, walk i suppose)

Let's no be so terribly vague.  Let's imagine you build a 4CC build just as tuned as CS.  Why would you prefer that Keeper list over CS?  You get a better matchup against aggro, but it's not like CS can't sideboard The Abyss.  Keeper has traditionally been more vulnerable to cards like Red Elemental Blast and had to resort to Skeletal Scrying for that.  Keeper, with all its bullets, seems more vulnerable to the restriction of Brainstorm than CS which has Thirst for Knowledge to get out it.  Plus, I think CS can win smaller just by a single Thirst for Knowledge and a Welder, rather than going all in with some of the draw spells Keeper has had to resort to  before.

[masterK]

Going back on topic, is there a reason to prefer a strategy like The Deck instead of CS?  Both are control decks aimed to beat other control decks, but CS has the ability to just win with Tinker or Thirst for Knowledge + Goblin Welder.  Do people just hold onto The Deck because of nostalgia or because they think White might not suck?

People play The Deck because it is the most powerful yet flexible deck ever devised.  It has the abilities to beat any deck when in the hands of a masterful player. This is very familiar ground and Rakso has covered it all before in his excellent series of articles.

[masterK]

Wow.  I have lots to say about this deck...

1) Why is there no Balance?  Not only is it the most powerful white card ever printed, it allows you to setup additional insane plays with the Zuran Orb you're running (which isn't necessary anyway).

Good call...  I believe Balance should be fit in there somewhere...  Perhaps for a Flooded Strand?

2) Disrupting Scepter is so past it's day in usefulness, it's not even close to funny.  Mind Twist is unrestricted now, so even additional copies of that would be more useful than a 6 mana investment for them to discard a card of their choice.  Yes, the old school "theory" from The Deck years ago would warrant a permanent source of card advantage such as the stick; however, it makes no sense in the current environment.

Could you elaborate on "why it makes no sense in the current environment"?  What, exactly (pray tell) is this current environment of which you speak?  There's really no established metagame to my knowledge after the wonderful shakeup that Wizards handed down from yon high.  However, we can infer that combo has been slowed to the extent (no more flash, brainstorm, or scroll) that The Stick will lock that ass down and make them beg for mercy from daddy Wiseman.

3) Mind Spring is flat out better than Braingeyser because it can't be Misdirected (and I'm sure you won't be killing someone with Braingeyser).

I like the flexiblity that Geyser offers, but I can see where (your somewhat misguided) view might come from.  I don't care so much about my opponent playing Mis-D when they're staring at it in their hand as Scepter comes down and makes it appear very foolish indeed.

4) As people stated already, Treasure Trove is not worth the investment.  Even I have run this card in the past, but when I did I was running Academy and Mind Over Matter to cycle through my entire deck if I needed to or generate mana - and that was six to eight years ago.  Thirst for Knowledge, Intuition + AK, or any number of newer draw engines would net you better card to resource quality than sinking mana into TT, not to mention the other synergies that such draw engines provide coincidentally.

These "synergies" you refer to are merely cute tricks (IMHO).  Treasure Trove is reliable in the face of things like graveyard removal which Intuition + AK is vulnerable to.  We will be seeing a massive resurgence in gy removal do to Ichorid's ascendancy.  I've never liked Thirst as it nets you +1 card advantage at best.

5) No "Yawgmoth's Will because of Twister" is ridiculous!  Even if you HAD to run Timetwister in your deck, this doesn't mean you don't run one of the most broken cards in history in your deck, nor does it mean you cast your Timetwister when you can lock the game up with Will if you have it.

Yawgmoth's Will don't stop Ichorid cold (sure to be one of the top decks).  Timetwister gets their heads a-spinnin with all the reshuffling and it keeps their graveyard spotless clean as a babies bottom.

6) Since there aren't many enchantments you need to worry about in this metagame, you might as well run Ancient Grudge instead of Disenchant.  I hear two-for-ones are quite, especially since you already support a 5-color manabase.  At the very least, you could drop two Disenchant for two Ancient Grudge.

The 5-color manabase leans heavily towards white and blue, which is why disenchant is a better fit.  Plus it is more flexible.  The flashback of Ancient Grudge doesn't really come into play with all the Twistering I expect to be doing (multiple times each game).

7) If you have Wastelands and fetchlands, it would fall well within "The Deck" theory of incremental card advantage to run a Crucible of Worlds.

I like Dwarven Miner for this purpose, but your point is noted.

9) A control deck with no Force of Will seems misguided to say the least.  There are still enough combo decks and "I win" cards in the format that warrant its inclusion.

Force of Will is not in alignment with the golden rule which around here we like to call "Card Advantage".  It's like giving your opponent a Hymn to tourach which always hits one of your counterspells. 

10) Time Walk is more than just "take another turn."  It effectively reads, "play land and mox turn one, take another turn.  Make your land drop, and get UU online so you can cast countermagic and not lose the game."

You can't rely on it first turn so I don't think this is a valid consideration.  It's more like, "yeah, I get to untap my lands and draw a card, mmmmmkay".

There's so much more to mention and talk about, but that should provide you with a decent bit of information to think about at the least.  Every once in awhile it's nice to take a look at past strategies and update them to determine if they are viable in a new metagame; however, it seems as if you've just taken the old skeleton from 10 years ago and added a few new cards without compensating for how the environment has really changed.

I thank you for your input.

-> (masterK) <-

[Samite Healer]

People play The Deck because it is the most powerful yet flexible deck ever devised.  It has the abilities to beat any deck when in the hands of a masterful player. This is very familiar ground and Rakso has covered it all before in his excellent series of articles.

Explain to me why this is "the most powerful deck" when it runs a pile of disenchants and disrupting scepters, instead of Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar or any number of other busted cards?  Perhaps it WAS the most powerful deck in its time, but it certainly isn't now and it definitely isn't in this form.

Your counterpoint regarding Force of Will is still misguided.  Yes, it does not net you card advantage, but at some point you must consider the alternatives.  Everything in this game is a trade-off, whether it is cards for life, life for resources, cards for tempo, etc., and not losing the game is much more important than gaining +1 card.  If you think that the environment is slow enough to run Disrupting Scepter, you should also take into account that you can also hard cast Force of Will.

You are correct about AK + Intuition being vulnerable to graveyard hate, but there are a ton of other options for draw engines that are more efficient than Treasure Trove and that was my point.

Timetwister is not a viable game plan against an Ichorid deck.  Perhaps if your deck was able to cast Timetwister and then combo off it might be, but your win condition is so slow that Ichorid could easily crush you before you win the game.

What flexibility does Braingeyser offer you that outweighs the fact that it can fall victim to Misdirection? Your deck runs Timetwister, has no way to generate a tremendous amount of mana, and you won't kill your opponent with it.  Give me a solid reason why Mind Spring isn't just better?  I'm not perfect, so if I've missed something here let me know and I will cede this point.

Yawgmoth's Will's function is NOT to stop Ichorid, so it doesn't make sense to compare it to Timetwister (since that seems to be the function of your Twister).  I'm saying Will should be in your deck, not necessarily in your Timetwister slot.

My laptop battery seems to be dying...I'll be back to talk more on here later.

[Mophead-Masquerade]

9) A control deck with no Force of Will seems misguided to say the least.  There are still enough combo decks and "I win" cards in the format that warrant its inclusion.

Force of Will is not in alignment with the golden rule which around here we like to call "Card Advantage".  It's like giving your opponent a Hymn to tourach which always hits one of your counterspells. 

I would turn good spells into hymn to tourach ALL DAY.

[masterK]

9) A control deck with no Force of Will seems misguided to say the least.  There are still enough combo decks and "I win" cards in the format that warrant its inclusion.

Force of Will is not in alignment with the golden rule which around here we like to call "Card Advantage".  It's like giving your opponent a Hymn to tourach which always hits one of your counterspells. 

I would turn good spells into hymn to tourach ALL DAY.

Try that enough times and soon your opponent will have 3 cards in hand while you have none.

I don't like them odds, pardah.

-> (masterK) <-

[Mophead-Masquerade]

Oh is that why treasure trove is so good?

[Moxlotus]

9) A control deck with no Force of Will seems misguided to say the least.  There are still enough combo decks and "I win" cards in the format that warrant its inclusion.

Force of Will is not in alignment with the golden rule which around here we like to call "Card Advantage".  It's like giving your opponent a Hymn to tourach which always hits one of your counterspells. 

I would turn good spells into hymn to tourach ALL DAY.

Try that enough times and soon your opponent will have 3 cards in hand while you have none.

I don't like them odds, pardah.

-> (masterK) <-

It's better than your opponent casting a turn 1 tinker, crucible/strip, or just flat out killing you on turn 1.

[arctic79]

Wow that list is absolutely terrible.  In todays Vintage (even with the loss of our beloved BS etc.) it is just too slow.  Here are a few glaring deficiencies:

Disrupting Scepter: I love the card but it is using resources (ie Mana) when you could be doing something more effective, it is also an easy target for Welder.
Treasure Trove: Without FoW how are you going to ensure it even hits the table.  Game two Ichorid kills it easily since you will probably be tapped out from casting the damn thing.
Disenchant: So many better options for this deck.
4xSTP: 2 is adequate.
No Balance: Seriously?
Serra Angel: Maybe I can't read very well and you actually typed a different creature.
No Will: Come on!!! This is a joke right?
Moat: Tabernacle will be so much easier, and you don't lose a turn, if you play the countermagic right.

Shall I go on.  The theory behind the Deck is good for the upcoming shift in the format, but speed kills and this deck is just a bump in the road right now.  Try making relevant upgrades that can make this deck faster and smoother and you will get a better reception with it. 

[masterK]

Explain to me why this is "the most powerful deck" when it runs a pile of disenchants and disrupting scepters, instead of Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar or any number of other busted cards?  Perhaps it WAS the most powerful deck in its time, but it certainly isn't now and it definitely isn't in this form.

Its all about the deck as a whole.  First off, Tinker is card disadvantage and therefore religiously to be avoided.  I feel I was very clear on this point.  Second off, Yawgmoth's Won't doesn't do jack about Ichorid like Twister does.  These 2 cards don't play well together so it's either one or the other.  Workshop only works for artifacts, and this is not an artifact-heavy deck (although powering down a turn one scepter is very, very tempting...  I will look into this possibility more at a later date).  Bazaar means your playing graveyard heavy strategy...  Again, this is what Twister kicks in the balls and why you can't play it yourself.

Your counterpoint regarding Force of Will is still misguided.  Yes, it does not net you card advantage, but at some point you must consider the alternatives.  Everything in this game is a trade-off, whether it is cards for life, life for resources, cards for tempo, etc., and not losing the game is much more important than gaining +1 card.  If you think that the environment is slow enough to run Disrupting Scepter, you should also take into account that you can also hard cast Force of Will.

Everything is a trade off, but that's not the kind of tradeoff The Deck was made to capitalize on.

You are correct about AK + Intuition being vulnerable to graveyard hate, but there are a ton of other options for draw engines that are more efficient than Treasure Trove and that was my point.

Thank you for acknowledging my point.

Timetwister is not a viable game plan against an Ichorid deck.  Perhaps if your deck was able to cast Timetwister and then combo off it might be, but your win condition is so slow that Ichorid could easily crush you before you win the game.

Twister, Walk, tutor for Twister, Moat, GG Ichorid little buddy

What flexibility does Braingeyser offer you that outweighs the fact that it can fall victim to Misdirection? Your deck runs Timetwister, has no way to generate a tremendous amount of mana, and you won't kill your opponent with it.  Give me a solid reason why Mind Spring isn't just better?  I'm not perfect, so if I've missed something here let me know and I will cede this point.

Flexability

-> (masterK) <-

[masterK]

Wow that list is absolutely terrible.  In todays Vintage (even with the loss of our beloved BS etc.) it is just too slow.  Here are a few glaring deficiencies:

Disrupting Scepter: I love the card but it is using resources (ie Mana) when you could be doing something more effective, it is also an easy target for Welder.

Plows take care of Welder so that those tricks aren't even worthy of consideration.

Treasure Trove: Without FoW how are you going to ensure it even hits the table.  Game two Ichorid kills it easily since you will probably be tapped out from casting the damn thing.

Game 2 I side in my Propogandas and extra 2 Moats.

Disenchant: So many better options for this deck.

If you'd like to justify this slanderous statement, then by all means feel free...

4xSTP: 2 is adequate.

4 of the best creature removal spell ever printed?  Sounds about right to me.

No Balance: Seriously?

If you will read what I said above I acknowladged this as an oversight and will replace a Flooded Strand with this.

Serra Angel: Maybe I can't read very well and you actually typed a different creature.

She plays offense + defense at the same time, flies, and costs a very reasonable 5 for all this.

No Will: Come on!!! This is a joke right?

sigh...  why do I feel like I'm repeating myself

Moat: Tabernacle will be so much easier, and you don't lose a turn, if you play the countermagic right.

Doesn't stop Ichord like Moat does.  (ps. - sigh...)

Shall I go on.  The theory behind the Deck is good for the upcoming shift in the format, but speed kills and this deck is just a bump in the road right now.  Try making relevant upgrades that can make this deck faster and smoother and you will get a better reception with it.

The wheel has turned, and all that is old is new again.

The time has come for The Deck's return to ascendensy.

The time has come.

-> (masterK) <-

[Negator13]

So is this thread gonna get locked soon or what?