What are the most powerful/viable cards that you think are underplayed?

[The Atog Lord]

Yeah, Jerry was able to drop Serra against Dave Williams and use Savor the Moment to drop Dave to one life, a position from which Long has trouble winning. I believe Jerry said that it was a Trogdon creation. He even used Impulse to dig through the deck and find the pieces. Now that's putting underplayed cards to good use.

Of course, Brian DeMars wins this thread.

[LordHomerCat]

Yeah, Jerry was able to drop Serra against Dave Williams and use Savor the Moment to drop Dave to one life, a position from which Long has trouble winning. I believe Jerry said that it was a Trogdon creation. He even used Impulse to dig through the deck and find the pieces. Now that's putting underplayed cards to good use.

Of course, Brian DeMars wins this thread.

God I can't even tell if that's serious.  It sounds ridiculous, but then you say "It's a Mark Trogdon deck" and all of a sudden it becomes likely that something like that really happened.

[yangtime]

It was definitely a Mark Trogdon deck.

I second Rich's assessment that Brian DeMars wins this thread with Strategic Planning.  I would say that Mark Trogdon would come close with such hits as Wirecat and Savor the Moment.

[goobafish]

Jerry Yang won the Sunday Vintage tournament with his Panoptic Mirror, Serra Sphinx, and Savor the Moment deck on Sunday.  He even beat David Williams (yes THE David Williams) playing TKs Pitch Long list in that event.

HE WON??? I laughed so hard when I saw him play Panoptic Mirror Time walk on my friend who was playing goblins. Also, David Williams was not cool.

[forests failed you]

Are you JK?  Dave Williams was the coolest cat in the whole room.  I spent a lot of time hanging out with him, and he is one of the nicest people you could ever hope to meet.

[goobafish]

You should have seen him yelling at his opponent, and swearing at the judges on Sunday. Maybe he was just having a bad day.

[Wise]

Are you JK?  Dave Williams was the coolest cat in the whole room.  I spent a lot of time hanging out with him, and he is one of the nicest people you could ever hope to meet.

I hope he was just having a bad day, cause he acted very inappropriate

[forests failed you]

Since I don't think you actually know what was going on I will explain why Dave was in a bad mood.

Dave was X-1 in the tournament and his round 3 opponent didn't show up.  His opponent had already recieved a game loss and it was getting close to match loss time so he texted Mike Long asking for my phone number, because he had been wanting to play a few games against me before I headed home.  Mike had texted him back with my phone number right before I showed up right as Dave was writing down my phone number on his life pad.  and we began chatting.  It was 8 minutes into the round and we both decided that his opponent was very unlikely to show up so the two of us would just start playing for fun.  Also, keep in mind that Dave was in last place and had no chance of winning any prize at this point in the event.  Also, keep in mind that Dave had purchased all of the cards for his deck that morning, because he doesn't actually play Vintage--and, only wanted to play because he and I hung out after I got eliminated from the Top 4 and he had watched the Vintage Worlds top eight and had thought it looked so fun and cool that he wanted to actually give the format a try.  The only reason he was playing in the event was that he wanted to play some games to see what the format was like, to decide whether or not he wanted to start playing the format in his spare time for fun. 

As we were shuffling up he told me that his opponent would have been playing Ichorid and that he wasn't sure what he was supposed to board in that match up--was he supposed to board out FOW to bring in his hate card, et cetera?  Anyways, a Judge comes over and gives his opponent a Match loss while we are playing our game.  A few minutes later a different Judge comes over, who has stepped in for the real head judge of the event while that judge went to the bathroom (also the judge who gave his opponent the match loss) , and informs Dave that he also has a match loss.  The reason was that Dave had asked me (an outside source) for information about his match while the match was still going on, when he asked me whether or not he should board out Force of Wills.  The judge also straight up lied by saying that Dave had also been talking on his cell phone asking somebody on the phone how to board for the match up and then wrote down that tech on a piece of paper.  Dave was pissed on the matter of principle because the judge was basically just being a hard ass scum bag about the whole thing, and going on a power trip while the real head judge was away.  The best part was that when the head judge came back Dave was able to prove that the judge was lying because he had not made any phone calls--and had only made one text message during his round that did not ask for outside information, and the piece of paper did not have sideboard information on it but rather my phone number that he had requested from mike long.  The head judge actually reversed the game loss, and the other judge got repremanded (or so I have heard secondhand...). 

Basically, I would have been pissed as well and to be honest I Dave wasn't even rude to the judge.  He was upset, because the call was completely insane...  Getting a match loss against an opponent who didn't even show up, in a tournament where you are only playing for fun and not even in contention to win anything?  I was there, and I can tell you for a fact that there was no intent on Dave's part to cheat as he was completely certain that his opponent wasn't going to show up.  He was asking me about the match up for his own future reference.  Also, his opponent didnt' show up for the round because he (Ashok) had actually dropped from the tournament because he couldn't make prize, but wasn't dropped from the event.  Ashok was in the same position as Dave, but Dave was simply playing for the experience of getting a chance to play Vintage again for the first time in years--an experience which was severely tainted by a judge who took it upon himself to lie and act like unreal scum, for whatever reason unreal scum acts like unreal scum.  He was so pissed off because the judge actually lied about what had happened and he had the proof to refute it.

Dave is an extremely nice guy, and a very well known and respected card player who is actually interested in playing our format.  He told me that he was serious about trying to make it out to some of the SCG tournaments, now that he had bought the cards to play.  Having a player like that take an interest in Vintage does nothing but make our format look good by getting the endorsement of a great pro player.  So, before you go bashing people you don't know it might be nice to find out why first.  Secondly, he never yelled at or swore at the judges, nor was he particlarly rude considering that the judge was straight up lying about what happened... (which I can confirm because I saw the whole thing unfold.)

[goobafish]

I believe we are talking about a different match or day. The one I saw was him at 0-2 playing against my friend playing Oath, round 3 on Sunday, and his opponent was present and not late. He was upset over his opponent calling a judge on him when he drew his card for turn on his opponent's main phase. Dave asked if he was done, and his opponent responded, "No, Not Yet", and Dave drew his card for turn (clearly a misunderstanding). His opponent then called the judge on him. There is a full account of the events on the SCG forums.

In this incident, he did yell and swear. I was sitting 2 or 3 seats away. Everyone around was surprised he didn't get DQed. I think Rich Shay was sitting near them as well.

I had no clue about that run in with the judges during another round. I would also be upset if a judge said I had made a call when I clearly had not.

[yangtime]

I don't know anything about what went on.

However, I did get a chance to play David on Sunday and I thought he was a stand up guy.  He was nice enough and was honestly new and curious about our format.  I'd love a chance to play Vintage with him again at a StarCity or the next Vintage Championships.

[dwpoker]

After my great experience this weekend (except the one judge, and I will recap the events here) I found this forum and began lurking. I usually don't post on forums because in poker especially they are nothing but gossip circles that aren't productive at all. So far I've already learned a lot from this site and I only found it yesteday. The event that Goobafish is referring to is a different situation than what DeMars was talking about but it led up to the event so I will give the full recount here for you all. I normally don't care what people think of me, but since this is a new community and I'd love to be a part of it, I want to give my story so I don't start out on the wrong foot.

First, in round 3, I was 1-1, and still very much in contention (not 0-2 like Goobafish said) I was paired against what appeared to be a nice guy. Up until this point both my other two opponents had been very friendly and nice and realized that this was a casual environment and could tell I was just there to have fun, win or lose. I had noticed pretty much everyone I had watched in the Vintage events had been this way so I assumed my opponent in round 3 was also. So what started the trouble was this. My opponent (who I'll refer to as OPP from now on) cast duress and takes a card that is irrelevant for this discussion. The rest of my hand is non interactive cards, meaning no FoW or anything that would require me to ever make a choice. I draw and play a land and a Sol Ring and am done. I have one card he doesn't know. On his turn he plays Wasteland and takes out my only land and then taps his Mox and land and plays Challice for 1 nullifying most of the cards in my hand.

At this point he stares at me and I thought he was waiting for me to take my turn since I didn't have a blue card in hand when he played Durress on me, so there is no way for me to have drawn FoW and a blue card. I asked him if he was done and he said what I thought was yup. It didn't make sense to me that he was waiting for me to respond and since I am new to Vintage I also didn't think he could have anymore plays since he had tapped out and played a land already. I know there are many zeros in Vintage but I wrongly assumed he would have already played any of those.

So, I began to draw. The card came off my deck and I saw it but it didn't mix into my hand. At this point he says "I'm not done", I quickly put the card back and apologized. He says "I have a play, Chalice for zero, but I have to call a judge." I then inform him that I have already won game 1, and it took a very long time and the round is almost over that he is just wasting more time, and to be honest, it is in my favor if this game takes a while, so I am actually doing him a favor. He says that he "must call a judge" and I ask him what his point is. It appears to me that he is only calling a judge in hopes of getting a free game win in a situation that was clearly accidental and where there was NO advantage gained by me. I have no lands in play, he knows all my cards except one and I have no decision that I will make between him playing Chalice for zero and drawing that card. So there was no harm done in that situation and it appeared to me I had finally run into a jerk of an opponent in this event, which was a drastic contrast from EVERYONE I had met so far. The judge came over and agreed that there was no issue and told us to continue playing. I was a little irked at my opponent at the time, but everything was fine at this point.

I draw the card I saw and say go and then he cast Gaea's Blessing on Wasteland, Sac Land and Duress in his graveyard. He puts them on the bottom and immediately draws without shuffling. Now up until this point in the tournament, I would have been totally cool if anyone made what appeared to be an honest mistake and just let them put it back and do it correctly. Like I said, I was just here to play some games and have fun, not try and nit-pick everyone about every little thing. But since he had been a little tight with me I felt I had to call a judge on him now. The judge came over and ruled that he gets a warning but the card stays in his hand and he just shuffles now. So instead of having the option to draw that Wasteland, Sac Land or Duress he doesn't. This seems very unfair to me and I ask the judge to appeal. He gets very angry and puts his hand in my face and says there is no higher authority. I get pretty upset about his tone and actions and inform him that he doesn't need to treat me like a child or put his hand in my face. I NEVER swore once, I don't swear in conversation so if you, Goobafish, think you heard someone swear, it wasn't me. I swear when joking with friends, but never in confrontation, I know that it can only hurt your case and make you look worse. I did get heated but I had a man putting his hand in my face and yelling at me, which shouldn't be tolerated by any players, not just me. I got the higher level WOTC staff involved, found out that now you don't lose for drawing a card in a situation where you can't fix it like he did, and moved on and kept playing. I won the round and was at 2-1. I told the judge that I was offended with how he handled the situation and that I was going to drop even though I was in contention because he had totally ruined the fun experience I was trying to have. I was a little out of line when I was leaving as I told my friend the story in front of my OPP and said he was a jerk to my friend, where the guy could hear it, but I felt his actions did prove me right. I doubt anyone of the other Vintage players I met in that situation in that tournament would have handled it like he did.

[dwpoker]

So at this point I had dropped from the event at 2-1, still very much in contention because I felt that I was no longer having fun. The OPP's attitude and the way the judge handled himself had killed it for me. I was telling my friends the story and they told me I shouldn't let two bad apples spoil it and I should see if I can un-drop and continue to have fun. I decided they were right, other than those guys, I was really enjoying myself and having a great time and meeting some nice guys. I went to Scott Larabee, one of the WOTC guys in charge, and told him of the situation and warned him that the judge had it out for me and felt that another situation could arise.

Now DeMars account is mostly accurate but there are a few little details he got wrong, but since it all directly affected me I will also recount.

The Evil Judge says begin the round and my opponent is not there, now I read the name as Ashok but at the time I didn't know who that was or what he was playing. Since the event I now know who he is and have spoken with him, and it turns out he was the nice guy I had spoken with earlier in the event but at that time I didn't know his name. So the judge says he has lost game 1 and I will win game one if he doesn't show up. I didn't know how much time he had to show, but honestly I was hoping he would show up, because I wasn't here for free wins, I wanted to play some Vintage. While the judge was standing there a few of the guys in the other matches said that he went off looking for food and wasn't planning on coming back. I noticed most of the Vintage community knows each other so I was pretty sure everyone knew what they were talking about and that I wasn't going to get to play this round.

At this point, since I have to sit there for some time with no opponent I decided to call Mike Long back, (I did make a call DeMars, and never said I didn't, just didn't call you or Paul or anyone else who knows about sideboarding). Mike had came up to say goodbye during the other incident in round 3 and I didn't get a chance to say goodbye. I explained to him the situation from earlier on the phone and quietly said that the judge was being a dickhead. At the time I didn't notice the judge was standing somewhere close where he could hear me, but I didn't intend for him to, so that probably provoked him for later. Then at the end of my call with Mike I said that I was having trouble with the deck and asked if he had any of the guys from the top 8 the night before phone number, as I remember he had gotten a few. He said he had Paul M.'s # and that he should have the other guys. He gave it to me and I wrote it down on my life pad. That is the only thing I had written and I never talked about sideboarding on the phone.

After I hung up I was about to text Paul and ask him for DeMars # when I looked up and saw DeMars! I said "Hey I was just about to text Paul and see if I could get your number, I have some questions about playing". I never had to send a text message and I'm sure Paul can verify that a stranger (ME) never text him that afternoon. DeMars sits down and ask where my opponent is, I say he never showed so I guess I win. I tell him that every round I can't figure out what to take out to sideboard and want his thoughts. At this point I had a very long call so I'm pretty sure I've already won the match. He sits down where my opponent would be sitting and we began to talk. I yell over to the judges that this isn't my opponent so that they know I'm just messing around and not playing a tournament match. They yell back "you are ok". I first ask him how I would board against Ichorid since I have 9 cards for that matchup and can't figure out what you would take out in a tight combo deck. The reason I asked about this deck first is because I had so many cards for the matchup and because I had seen a few guys playing it so it was fresh on my mind. It turns out Ashok was playing Ichorid, but at this point I had assumed he had already lost the match since it's been so long, and I didn't even know what person or deck belonged to the name Ashok at the time. He gave me his thoughts and I said mine and that was it. I then was about to ask about the next matchup and DeMars said "you wanna just play?" This was great since all I wanted to do was play so I jumped at the opportunity. We began to play and when I had a tough decision I just turned my hand over and asked him his thoughts. At this point the judge comes over and tells me that I have a match loss for receiving outside assistance before the loss had been giving to my opponent. He said I made a phone call about sideboard help (not true) and wrote it on my paper (also false). I had my pad there but since Sheldon had come over with him, I didn't feel like arguing. It felt like they had made up there mind so I just told them I didn't want to discuss it and to just give me my match loss and I'll drop. I told DeMars I didn't feel like playing anymore and just left.

I then remember that I had told Scott Larabee that I felt like an incident with that judge could come up so I went to find him and relate to him what happened. It must mean something if I was able to predict he would come after me 10min before it happened. When I got there Sheldon was already with Scott telling him about the situation. I was very upset and disappointed and told them both what exactly went down. I had my pad with me and showed Sheldon the only thing I had written down was Paul M.'s # and there were no notes, I also showed my call log and the only call was to Long, who knows nothing about current Sideboarding in Vintage. He said he had gotten a different story, that I had written down sideboard notes within 10 minutes, and that's why they made there decision. They went to the judge in charge of the judges in side events and related the story and they overturned my match loss and asked if I wanted to continue playing. I told them I felt uncomfortable with that judge and only if he was gone. They said he had gone to a seminar so I was safe. I went back to the event, and lost to Jerry Yang's Blue Serra Beats  . I lost the next round but still had a blast. The Evil Judge was gone for those last two rounds and I lost them both, and I've never had as good a time losing in my life.

I really enjoyed most of my time playing and besides those two exceptions, everyone I met was really friendly and nice. It was amazing the difference in the Vintage community and the Pro Tour one. Most on the Pro Tour are nice, but they are so serious about everything such as help and decklists that it makes it not as enjoyable. I want to thank everyone that I met for their hospitality and I can't wait to be able to play again. Every since then I have been brainstorming about deck ideas and even dreaming about playing Vintage. I only wish there was some events on the West Coast for me to play :-/.

Thanks again,
David Williams
david@davidwilliamspoker.com

[The Atog Lord]

True Story:
After three tournaments, I only won three total going first die-rolls on the weekend. In the Day II event, I mentioned to my opponent that I'd only won two die rolls (so far) in the three events I'd played in. Dave, who was sitting next to me, heard this, rolled a D6, and gave me a chance to beat it. I failed to do so, and failed a second time when I got another chance to compete with Dave in casual die rolling.

Thanks for clearing things up, Dave. Welcome to The Mana Drain.

Rich

PS -- Nam Tran won the Day II event with MUD. Jerry came in second.

[forests failed you]

Yeah, sorry Dave I guess I got some of the information mixed up about what was going on with the phone.  What I did know for sure was that the judge accusing you of cheating was completely absurd, because having been part of the situation there was no doubt in my mind that you were trying to do anything dishonest.  It was great to meet you at the event, and I am glad you found your way to themanadrain.com.  I hope that you continue to take an interest in the format, and that your next Vintage experience will be much better, and a much more characteristic example of how much fun the format and community can be!

Cheers!

[iamjimpaine]

Back to underplayed cards, Trygon Predator is the awesomest creature ever.  2/3, evasion ability, pitches to force, wreck-tastic ability, and all for three mana.

[Lurker101]

Back to underplayed cards, Trygon Predator is the awesomest creature ever.  2/3, evasion ability, pitches to force, wreck-tastic ability, and all for three mana.

Thank you.

[goobafish]

Thanks for clearing things up Dave. It seems like there are 2 sides to this story, and the judges were not treating you fairly or respectfully, which is understandably why you were upset. It is awesome for players to pick up our format, and I hope to see you around again.

[Wise]

Dave, I was your opponent in this match, and I am glad we get a chance to discuss/go over what happened, personally I don’t much like leaving a bad name, and I think that all support to the vintage community is good support, I had no prior knowledge to who you were before this event, though I don’t think that shouldn’t have any affect on ones actions.

When I durressed you your hand was as follows  (I wrote them all down)

Demonic tutor, Dark ritual, Sol ring, Chain of vapor, Hurkels recall, Polluted Delta, and Underground sea


I took your Demonic Tutor,

On my following turn, when I played my Chalice at 1 and passed priority, because you could have drawn a FOW and with two Blue cards in hand made it a possibility that my chalice could be countered, You asked me if I was finished I said “no” which you misinterpreted (understandably) and drew a card, which is when I indeed indicated I would need to call a judge, (in a local event I would not have) but I feel that If any play error occurs, a judge should be called in a CEL-Competitive event, 19 man or not. (was this the wrong call?)  This is when I felt it was inappropriate to tell me I was being nit-picky, as well as being an asshole trying to get a free win, which is far from true as this was he first time I called a judge all weekend, and like you just wanted to have some fun before our 14 hour drive back home. Now Flustered over this I begin to play faster and indeed misplayed my Gaea’s blessing like an impulse putting 3 cards on the bottom and drew a card, you called a judge, there was no dispute over that, it was the right thing to do, but when the head judge for the side events made the ruling you argued (which got quite heated) and phoned another judge who made the same ruling. The game ended in a draw with my opponent at 2 life and I had platinum angel on the board, after we were awarded only 8 minutes for extra time.

I apologies for coming off as a “asshole” but indeed I felt I was following proper protocol for a CEL event, its always nice to see pro players from other formats/games taking up Vintage Magic (a format I play almost exclusively). From everything I have heard Dave you’re a stand up guy, it is indeed unfortunate we had to meet and quarrel over this situation, I wish you the best of luck, I can only hope we will see you out to more Vintage events in the future.


p.s sorry for de-railing the thread.

[reaperbong]

yeeaaaaa..... so how about that Mystic Remora? doesn't anybody use these things or am i missing something here?

[Schonkreuz]

it seems like almost no one plays the card, though they should. A few people I know have tried it out and it worked well for them, I think most just don't know about it.

And yes, trygon ROCKS! I mean come on, recall or rebuild all of a stax match ups artifacts and then drop that guy. He is gonna munch all day long.

[LordHomerCat]

it seems like almost no one plays the card, though they should. A few people I know have tried it out and it worked well for them, I think most just don't know about it.

Everyone knows about the card, it's just not good is all.

[Schonkreuz]

um...ok. I was just saying.

[Son of Serra]

Does anyone know where I can see a list for the Panoptic Mirror/Savor the Moment deck that Dave Williams played last weekend?

[dwpoker]

I played TK's Pitch Long list. Jerry Yang beat me with the Savor the Moment deck.

[Lurker101]

I think maybe AngelWeirdiing. It might work out in some deck

[iamjimpaine]

I think mystic remora could be really good against combo.  I think I remember Ben Kowal used to use them as a sideboard card.  Another card that I think could be sick is mana maze in tyrant oath.  It's easy to play at 1U, fits the mana base, and turns every blue instant in the deck that can be played during the upkeep into an orim's chant for the turn.  If they burn a counter on it, awesome, one less thing to stop your next oath.  If they don't, oath up a tyrant unhinibited and bounce the mana maze when you combo out.

Viable?

[Lurker101]

I think mystic remora could be really good against combo.  I think I remember Ben Kowal used to use them as a sideboard card.  Another card that I think could be sick is mana maze in tyrant oath.  It's easy to play at 1U, fits the mana base, and turns every blue instant in the deck that can be played during the upkeep into an orim's chant for the turn.  If they burn a counter on it, awesome, one less thing to stop your next oath.  If they don't, oath up a tyrant unhinibited and bounce the mana maze when you combo out.

Viable?

I don't know but again playing suspended cards aren't played so they let you get a few more spells in inturns They may trigger mana maze though and fast instants on the beginnng and you're opponent . I'll  build this and see how it turns out.

[Lurker101]

I already said this but Dimir Machinations or Perplex could really have some more fun at best they are perfect
Theire are so many 3cc spells to pick from: YawgWin, Timetwister, Doomsday, Wheel of Fortune, etc.
I use Machinations basically as a cheap Grim Tutor and it works well enough.


Tolaria West
Second Chance (maybe)
Vigean Intuition

[Sporkcore]

Perplex was played for a hot minute in one of the original versions of IT, as it could fetch out Yawg, Intuition, Grim Tutor, and Necro.

One card that hasn't seen play in a while that should is Burning Wish. Burning Slaver was a hot deck and it wasn't bad in combo either.

[Lurker101]

Mana Breach + Fastbond or Mana Breach + Crucible of Worlds. In unrelated news, I'm still working on that Arcane Lab/Mana Maze/Suspended cards deck. It should be up soon.