U/W Fish- An "Old" Face on the New Block

[jeffthefob]

Hello,

The purpose of this thread is to discuss possible builds of post-ban U/W Fish. Various fish builds, including U/W is a viable post-ban strategy for the following reasons:

1. U/W Fish’s real loss to the banning is Brainstorm. If I recall correctly from reading previous threads, people were actually debating the inclusion of Brainstorm in the deck. I personally feel Brainstorm should be included, but honestly, all the earlier versions of successful Fish decks didn’t include it.

2. Fish decks always exist in some form or another because it is a meta game deck. True, the meta game isn’t really all that developed right now, but Fish is a deck that has a lot of game against Slaver and Long, which I think are the two most popular decks; both of these decks will probably stay for a while. Fish’s weakest match up is against other true aggro decks such as R/g beats and Goblins. Despite those match-ups being unfavorable, they are winnable with a sweet sideboard brew.

3. I think the SOLE reason why Fish decks are good now is because Null Rod is good again. Back in the Gush/Flash era, Null Rod sucked because most of those Gush decks ran very few Moxen and Flash was just way too fast for Null Rod. Back when Gifts Ungiven was unrestricted, Null Rod was a huge card because it shut off the 10 artifact acceleration and was able to attack the mana base more directly and effectively.


Null Rod is a very valid strategy right now. Take a look at the decks being discussed right now in the open forums and count the number of cards Null Rod shuts down in those decks. All those cards tend to be mana sources; Null Rod compliments the Waste/Stifle Effects of the Fish decks very well. Also, Null Rod shuts down Sensei’s Diving Top, which is another card that is seeing more play. Sensei’s Diving Top or not, Null Rod also shuts Grindstones down. Yes, Painter.dec has Red Blasts to handle everything, but nevertheless, Null Rod must be removed in order to win.

One thing I would like to say is that Fish is not a broken deck. Fish is a fair deck. It doesn’t really “nut” your opponent out turn 1. Its “nut” hand maybe involves Lotus with 2 guys in play with Force/Daze back up. It wins through the card type, “creatures that aren’t Goblin Welders, Robots, and Dark Confidant,” not the Sorcery Tendrils of Agony.  Fish doesn’t play Yawgmoth’s Will, one of the format defining cards (I believe that without Yawgmoth’s Will type 1 will look bit different).  Fish is not the best deck; it just can’t be. I believe it is a very valid deck right now and should be considered during deck building and sideboard construction.

Before I start, here is the U/W Fish thread started by Dxfiler about 2 years ago. Toward the later pages include posts which are 1+ year old. It is a good reference. Of course time had changed, but some Fish strategy hasn’t. In the first page of the thread, Dxfiler gave a short history of U/W Fish. You may see some similarities between the deck I am about to present with it. ^^

U/W Fish, Suggested by Jeffthefob:

2 Savanah LionS
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Icatian Javelineers
4 Meddling Mage
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Null Rod
2 Swords of Plowshares
2 Echoing Truth
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta

This list was brewed not by yours truly, but by the machine, the beast, the swiss army knife, the Ocho, the bald unstoppable monster of the NorCal magic scene: David Ochoa known as Webster on TMD.

U/W Fish is known for its high consistency and redundancy; two good traits of a solid Fish deck. The old U/W lists didn’t include very much card draw other than brainstorm, but this deck is very different. This deck runs 4 Standstill and 3 Ninja of the Deep Hours (Ninja from this point on) as its draw engine. The deck employs a mana denial strategy in the form of Null Rod, Wasteland/Strip Mine, and Stifle, while beating in with 2-Power dorks, which I will be referring to as Cat and Dogs. Yes, the cards here aren’t powerful, but with the number of cards drawn from Standstill + Ninja, UW fish will often delay the opponent’s gameplan with mana denial and permission long enough to do 20 damage with its creatures.

Dark Confidant was the first option as the source of card drawing when I first started revamping the deck. But Bob is a creature, and thus can be handled in many ways. It takes a couple turns for its effect to kick in. It also changes the manabase of the deck.  Standstill on the other hand is almost like a two mana Ancestral and it can be played very easily with the deck because of the 4 Factories and 7 1-drops.

Speaking of creatures, this deck runs a total of 14 creatures and 4 mishra’s factory. Seven of those creatures are 1-drops which makes a turn 2 Standstill/ Null Rod/Ninja better.  Four of those 1-drops are Savannah Lion and Isamaru. Yes, they do NOTHING other than beat for two damages. Sometimes it is better to not to Ninja because Ninja too does only two damage. People always want to play creatures with utility like Cursecatchers and Stormscape Apprentice. Well, you have to look at it like this: the one extra power in their stats is the utility. Fish decks can’t dick around; they have to generate enough damage each turn to make the tempo cards that they play mean something. The two powered creatures are crucial.

I used to play 7 1-drops (4 Cat and 3 Dogs), but I am down to 2 of each now because the other 3 1-drops are Icatian Javelineers. This guy shoots down opposing Welders and Bobs. He is needed in Fish today IMO.

Swords to Plowshares (StP) and Echoing Truth are there to deal with resolved permanents. I would include more StP as Echoing Truth is just not as good as before. Almost every problematic card you want to StP whether it be Robots, Welders, Bob, Tarmogoyf, Goblin Lackey, and the list goes on. Echoing Truth is there because it deals with Empty the Warrns. And yes, E. Truthing a Darksteel Colossus is better than giving opponent 11 life.

Daze accompanies the mana denial strategy very well.  It is free and it pitches to FoW if it isn’t useful. Daze is such a tempo card that sometime it acts like Time Walk.  The best part is that once you played it your opponent will often have the fear and it will really screw up your opponent’s decisions about when to play around and into daze.  I’ve had many games where after Dazing one of his spells he started to play much more carefully and it delayed his plans a lot. 

Wasteland/Strip Mine/Stifle/Null Rod are the mana denial part of the deck. UW Fish is a prison deck There cards are pretty self-explanatory. Stifle also acts like Daze; once your opponents know they’re playing against it, it will have an impact on their game play.  Stifle also serve other purposes such as stopping EtW. Stifling a game-winning Tendrils almost never happens, any competent player will have Duress or FoW. And if stifling a tendrils happens, it is a mise.

This deck runs Mishra’s Factories. They work if drawn after Standstill is in play and make your land much more threatening. Against other creature decks it is usually a war of attrition, so having a good creature count is important. Turn 1 Dog, turn 2 factory followed by Null Rod/Standstill is very solid play.

The sideboard is a one-trick pony right now.  I ran the following:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Energy Flux
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Spellsnare
2 Swords to Plowshares

I feel like this SB can be greatly improved. Cards like Orim’s Chant and Arcane Lab may be be more back-breaking. The 4x’s of the sideboard are self explanatory. The Jittes and the StP are against aggro match-ups. The Snares are for CS, Oath, and Mirror/Fish match-ups.  This sideboard seems overly weak IMO and needs some more brewing in order to reach its maximum sweetness. And of course, the sideboard will vary depending on your metagame; derf.

Here is a tourney report I wrote while piloting this deck in a Eudomonia tournament in NorCal.  I had many games where I just went Null Rod + Dork beat to victory despite not having actions in my hand. 

U/W Fish was an established archtype before and had undergone many constant tweaking to solve the metagame as it changed. The deck that I suggested is like the 2003 deck but with some differences. With the current metagame, Null Rod is a good card. There aren’t other decks that abuse Null Rod other than Fish. I would urge you to have a second thought about Fish if you don’t think of it too highly. 

^^ Lets have a good discussion of this deck. 

P.S.: Thanks Web.

[Tabasco]

Have you thought about Cursecatcher?  I personally think that 4 Stifle is a staple in fish decks and has been for some time.  More recent U/W decks have used Jotun Grunt as their fat.

I would rather have a Cursecatcher than a 2 power creature that only attacks.  I think combo is going to be a big contender and the 2 damage is something they can shrug off where as a daze effect is alot better for you and something they have to play around.

[Vegeta2711]

I would rather have a Cursecatcher than a 2 power creature that only attacks.

Why? So your opponent can have twice as long to draw way too many cards for a couple of counters to deal with? Or is it the aspect that the Catcher may do something if they get cocky and try to go off too soon and not generate a single extra mana along the way to crush you?

[jeffthefob]

Have you thought about Cursecatcher?  I personally think that 4 Stifle is a staple in fish decks and has been for some time.  More recent U/W decks have used Jotun Grunt as their fat.

I would rather have a Cursecatcher than a 2 power creature that only attacks.  I think combo is going to be a big contender and the 2 damage is something they can shrug off where as a daze effect is alot better for you and something they have to play around.

Someone brought up Cursecatcher at the tourney report thread and I pretty much answered it with the same thing.  Two powered creatures are really important because they clock your opponent.  If you take a look at my Rd. 4 description you would notice that I would had won earlier and my opponent would had seen much less cards.  My Rd. 4 opponent Galen (Aardshark) also happen to post the other side of the game and you would had seen he wrote his life dropped from 20 to 10.  If it was a 2-powered creature he would probably had seen 5 less cards and have a less developed mana.  Less develop mana make Stifle, Wasteland, Null Rod, and Daze better.

Also, if you take a look at the U/W Fish Thread by Dxfiler, there were also many discussion about replacing 2-powered creatures that just do not do anything but beat.  And it seems both Dxfiler and I have a hard time convincing people in Vintage that 2-powered creatures are actually okay.  Yes, they aren't attractive or powerful, but they serve the purpose of the deck.  Clocking the opponent is SO IMPORTANT, mana denial is the first step, second step is to kill them.

But again, feel free to replace Cats and Dogs with Cursecatcher and see how it goes (if you do that I may suggest you to play Jotun Grunts and the 4th Ninja).  Cursecatcher sort of goes with the mana denying strategy (because now you are giving them more draws).  However, I just feel it being too cute, you can't dick around after you halted your opponent, got to beat in and win.  You don't want the game to go too long, and 4x 2-powered 1-drops are perfectly fine.

On the second issue of Jotun Grunts.  Hehe, did you read the tourney report thread, specifically the quote part where I "joked" about how Webster built the deck I said, "Where is Jotun Grunts?" I was half joking around.  Yes, Jotun Grunts was a very important part of my Fish success last year, it is big clock.  The replacement before for it was Ninja of the Deep Hours.  But that Fish list and this current Fish list is very different, this one runs Standstill and Manlands.  Manlands are like the extra creatures so it sort of replace the Jotun Grunts in a way.  Another difference is that there are too many 2 drops in this deck compared to the earlier version of the U/W Fish; we got 4x Standstill here.  With that being said, I would still try to fit in a couple Grunts here if I can, but I am unsure what to cut at this moment.  For your reference, here is the U/W Fish list I used last year (Top 4 Split, Split in Finals, and Top 8 after scooping twice)

Regarding combo, my sideboard right now is fairly weak against combo.  I am thinking adding in Orim's Chant and Arcane Lab.  I have used Orim's Chant before and it was good, I never personally played with Arcane Lab so I am unsure how good it exactly is.

You also mentioned 4 Stifles being "stables" of any Fish deck.  I respectfully disagree with that statement.  The list I played last year (which is 1+ years ago- some time now) didn't play any and it was very successful.  Yes, there are time where I wish I can stifle opponent's lands to gain a huge tempo (need Cat and Dog to follow it up).  The thing is, Stifle is the card that have the highest possibility to be the "dead" draws of the deck.  Stifle is mainly used against Fetchlands, stifling a lethal tendrils is like extremely rare.  So toward later game stifle is just not useful.  Besides it isn't all that hard to play around Stifle if you are competent player.  It is a card that you want your opponent to fear and just to keep them honest; 4 is just not needed. 

[bobjackson]

"There aren’t other decks that abuse Null Rod other than Fish. I would urge you to have a second thought about Fish if you don’t think of it too highly."

Doesn't U/R Landstill use Null Rods Efficently too?  They have the same disruption/null rod stradegy too just without creatures.  What do you think?  Also if Null Rod is that good, then why don't you run 4 in the main?

[Vegeta2711]

"There aren’t other decks that abuse Null Rod other than Fish. I would urge you to have a second thought about Fish if you don’t think of it too highly."

Doesn't U/R Landstill use Null Rods Efficently too?  They have the same disruption/null rod stradegy too just without creatures.  What do you think?  Also if Null Rod is that good, then why don't you run 4 in the main?

U/W Fish, Suggested by Jeffthefob:
...
4 Null Rod

I swear it's like you people aren't even trying anymore. I mean what does U/R Landstill have to do with U/W Fish outside of 'they both run blue cards'?

[Ufactor]

Link here.

The Vintage community is scrambling to perceive the upcoming metagame, whether it's to determine the objective best deck or to attack it from the outside. Stephen Menendian did an excellent job in not only beating me to the literary and journalistic punch, but predicting the key elements in the new Metagame. Expanding on that groundwork, and that of various decks from ICBM, I start making what I'd play for aggro-control in Vintage.

FYI - I'll eventually run out of Aliens quotes.

Did anybody read the article?  It is very possible that mana denial via Null Rod/Wasteland is going to suck in the new environment.  Graveyard hate, on the other hand, is almost ubiquitous.

[Pomaxx]

its good to see some fishes coming out of the deep water again, now that the meta is shifting.
i am working on a UWB list right now (see improvement forum) and dont play one drop dogs and cats (in the slot i use some duress effects and the like, so the decks gets a little more controlish than pure UW fish i assume) but what i think you should somehow squeeze in the maindeck and/or the sideboard are Katakis. they are so amazing with the overall mana denial theme and beat as well. give them a try.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Cursecatcher works nice with Voidmage Prodigy!

Also, isnt Null Rod traditionally a 2 of because the second one is a blank?

[kirdape3]

3 of, because you want to draw one basically every game and the second one really is a blank.  I doubt it will go to 2 without 4 Brainstorms because you'll still want to draw one ASAP.

[jeffthefob]

Thanks Veggie for replying XD.  I will try to address all of these somehow.

Link here.

Did anybody read the article?  It is very possible that mana denial via Null Rod/Wasteland is going to suck in the new environment.  Graveyard hate, on the other hand, is almost ubiquitous.

So, how is mana denial via Null Rod/Wasteland is going to "suck" in the new environment? Do you care to explain? Before I go on to write another response it would be nice if you put more thoughts and efforts explaining.  And if you plan to use the paragraph of the article where "Null Rod" is, then I would try to come up with something else to support your well articulated statement.

its good to see some fishes coming out of the deep water again, now that the meta is shifting.
i am working on a UWB list right now (see improvement forum) and dont play one drop dogs and cats (in the slot i use some duress effects and the like, so the decks gets a little more controlish than pure UW fish i assume) but what i think you should somehow squeeze in the maindeck and/or the sideboard are Katakis. they are so amazing with the overall mana denial theme and beat as well. give them a try.

The list I played before (link above) is more 'similar' to the list you have in Improvement thread.  But have you noticed that you have like infinite 2 drops to choose from? You need to evaluate which ones you want to play under your meta and etc. I have definite played my fair share of Katakis over the last year and yes they are decent. 

Now instead of suggesting to include them in because they are sweet (they are!), but what would I take out from this list? Please keep in mind that this list is very different than the traditional U/W and the U/B/W Fish that we had been seeing over the last two years.  Also, would you/I want to include Jotun Grunts over Kataki first?

Cursecatcher works nice with Voidmage Prodigy!

Also, isnt Null Rod traditionally a 2 of because the second one is a blank?

Maybe I should cut the white and play red with Grim Lavamancers because they work well with TEH GERMAN JUGGERNUUTS And this way I would be playing Gay /r because that is where this thread is going! Haha, you are awesome

"There aren’t other decks that abuse Null Rod other than Fish. I would urge you to have a second thought about Fish if you don’t think of it too highly."

Doesn't U/R Landstill use Null Rods Efficently too?  They have the same disruption/null rod stradegy too just without creatures.  What do you think?  Also if Null Rod is that good, then why don't you run 4 in the main?

Believe it or not, I def. saw this post earlier than Veggie.  The first question is actually cool, but the second really really really went off the charts.  While  I was thinking how to reply to the 2nd question Josh already did the honors, but I will add a bit more details to the first. 

U/R Landstill is an control deck while U/W Fish is much more aggressive.  You want to kick your opponent while they are down and take them out of the game.  The Null Rod kick them down, your aggressiveness takes them out.  Both deck use the mana denying strategy but being the aggressive deck you create a shorter clock on them.  An aggressive strategy goes along with mana denying strategy better than a passive strategy IMO.  I am no expert on Landstill because it isn't all that popular of a deck around my area, but I would think Landstill's weaker against Grim Long than U/W Fish.

[zeus-online]

I kinda like this version, and i wholeheartedly agree with 2 power creatures...Fish is like a softlock, you absolutely need to kill your opponent ASAP, or they're just going to break loose and tear you a new rear-end with brokenness. Cursecatcher is fine for delaying, but really, you need to kill your opponent before he breaks loose which cursecatcher fails to do.

The problem with daze and stifle, in my view, is that they're best against bad players...Decent and good players will almost always know when to ignore them and when to play around them...I think i've lost 1 type1 game to stifle, EVER...So going down to 2 seems fine as it indeed is dead quite often. In my view daze is stronger, since it's free and if you can force your opponent to do something NOW rather then just wait, they sometimes have no other option then to try and play through it instead of around it (Hint: Forcing your opponent to do so requires you to have enough power on the board to be threatening)

I think you may be overrating null rod, but i'll agree that it's the card that makes fish viable.

Your deck seems like an updated U/R Gay list with the landstills and manlands. Hope it works out (Although i hate playing against annoying men with manadenial aka. Fish)

/Zeus

[Pomaxx]

@Jeff

The list I played before (link above) is more 'similar' to the list you have in Improvement thread.  But have you noticed that you have like infinite 2 drops to choose from? You need to evaluate which ones you want to play under your meta and etc. I have definite played my fair share of Katakis over the last year and yes they are decent.

Now instead of suggesting to include them in because they are sweet (they are!), but what would I take out from this list? Please keep in mind that this list is very different than the traditional U/W and the U/B/W Fish that we had been seeing over the last two years.  Also, would you/I want to include Jotun Grunts over Kataki first?

my intention was to suggest them to you as a sideboard card.
you are right about the two drop creatures and your version is way more aggressive than mine. i dont play one drop creatures, as my plan A usually looks like: do i have a mox and a land= two drop (Null Rod if possible) or Duress/ Swords if needed. our builds are different and maybe you are right and Kataki doesnt deserve a maindeck slot. however, you should try (if you didnt until now) it out.
(i like them in my maindeck as well and would play an additional one sideboard against workshop decks)
personally i broke with Meddling Mages and would maybe cut them completely (but its rather subjective).
so if you ask me how to fit in 2 Katakis maindeck i would answer: cut one Meddling Mage and one standstill (isnt 4 just overkill? i mean its a great card, but you are playing fish, not standstill and most of the time you want to play a creature before laying down a standstill, dont you? sure, you have 4 Mishras, but its kinda risky to play standstill without a serious clock, isnt it?). this way you dont change the two drop ratio

[Webster]

@Jeff

The list I played before (link above) is more 'similar' to the list you have in Improvement thread.  But have you noticed that you have like infinite 2 drops to choose from? You need to evaluate which ones you want to play under your meta and etc. I have definite played my fair share of Katakis over the last year and yes they are decent.

Now instead of suggesting to include them in because they are sweet (they are!), but what would I take out from this list? Please keep in mind that this list is very different than the traditional U/W and the U/B/W Fish that we had been seeing over the last two years.  Also, would you/I want to include Jotun Grunts over Kataki first?

my intention was to suggest them to you as a sideboard card.
you are right about the two drop creatures and your version is way more aggressive than mine. i dont play one drop creatures, as my plan A usually looks like: do i have a mox and a land= two drop (Null Rod if possible) or Duress/ Swords if needed. our builds are different and maybe you are right and Kataki doesnt deserve a maindeck slot. however, you should try (if you didnt until now) it out.
(i like them in my maindeck as well and would play an additional one sideboard against workshop decks)
personally i broke with Meddling Mages and would maybe cut them completely (but its rather subjective).
so if you ask me how to fit in 2 Katakis maindeck i would answer: cut one Meddling Mage and one standstill (isnt 4 just overkill? i mean its a great card, but you are playing fish, not standstill and most of the time you want to play a creature before laying down a standstill, dont you? sure, you have 4 Mishras, but its kinda risky to play standstill without a serious clock, isnt it?). this way you dont change the two drop ratio

Having 1-drops doesn't suggest that you should play the opener of land, mox, null rod, creature differently than if you only have 2-drops. The difference is that you are opened up to having more options for your opening play(s). Granted, unless you have a relevant play in addition to playing a 1-drop (such as a second 1-drop) on turn 1, the two openers are functionally identical when looking at turn 1 only. The major difference is the more likely situation that you'll be in when you _DON'T_ have a mox. In those more likely openers, having the 1-drop is strictly better for obvious reasons.

Kataki (when looking at this build with 4 null rod main) doesn't have as much function as other creatures would unless null rod is not in play. Kataki serves as additional null rod for moxes that are already in play (effectively shutting them down _OR_ turning every two moxes into one mana per turn with the stipulation that the owner must sacrifice one of them). Kataki has no effect within the scope of one turn for moxes that aren't in play which means if the opponent is saving up for one big turn, then kataki will have no effect. Unless there is a high shop presence in your meta, I would not play kataki maindeck; and even then, I wouldn't want to have games stolen by chalice for 2 which is one of the dangerous pitfalls for three-color fish builds.

Meddling mage can be hard to use if you don't know exactly what you're doing. There isn't always a default card to name. It's specific for each gamestate which can be a bit overwhelming for most people because they'll name the wrong card. It's one of the more difficult cards to cast in the deck and I go back and forth with it. However, it's proven invaluable at times.

Concerning standstill. Standstill is awesome in this list. When taking into consideration the seven 1-drops in addition to the four mishra's factories, standstill is almost never going to be unfavorable to play. Granted, if this list were three colors, standstill wouldn't be in the deck because:

1. The mana base would not be able to support three colors plus wastelands and factories.
2. The third color would most likely be black, in which case dark confidant would be in the deck. Increasing the curve for creatures would mean that you would also be cutting ninja to avoid clunky draws. Simply put, the deck would be an entirely different sub-category of fish and wouldn't be relevant to this thread.

With that said, running less than 4 standstill doesn't make too much sense to me because you want to draw as many cards as possible. Standstill is the best option after ancestral recall. I would generally want to have standstill in play as soon as I have more than two damage per turn in play which suggests that I want it probably on turn two-four depending on the matchup. Running only three would greatly reduce the frequency of being able to play it on those turns which is undesirable.

[Pomaxx]

english isnt my mother tongue (i am german) and while trying to argue in another language, i feel like trading my stradivari for a trumpet. i will try to answer the discussed point nevertheless.

to sum it up: i am not advokating to play a 3 colour fish build or anything different over the UW fish list posted here. imo each deck (regardless of its strenght based on your playing skills/deck power/meta) should fit your playing style. while there are players around showing perfect adaption to each and every archetyp, some players (like myself) tend to play decks in a special way. different fish builds, while looking comparable at the first glance and sharing some important similarities, may end up more controlish or aggressive. this is caused by the different builds and personal playing style. the UW fish list looks more straight forward to me,  spitting out threads fast and trying to race the opponent via laying down more threads and disrupt the mana base and countering key spells.
the deck seems pretty strong in achieving this. i do prefer some more controlish builds with annoying utility creatures (Mindcensor, Kataki...may include Dimir here as well), thought. i sacrifice (speed) to get something, as it fits my playing style better.
i no way i want to sound like a defender of another build, but as a long standstill and fish player i just feel some minor tweaks could be done.

Having 1-drops doesn't suggest that you should play the opener of land, mox, null rod, creature differently than if you only have 2-drops. The difference is that you are opened up to having more options for your opening play(s). Granted, unless you have a relevant play in addition to playing a 1-drop (such as a second 1-drop) on turn 1, the two openers are functionally identical when looking at turn 1 only. The major difference is the more likely situation that you'll be in when you _DON'T_ have a mox. In those more likely openers, having the 1-drop is strictly better for obvious reasons.

sure.
i dont play one drops dogs and cats, but other spells in the one mana slot (read: duress as a proactive control element and swords as a reactive element to handle fast creatures), so its not like: oh, no mox around, no spell first turn. its more like one mana critter versus duress/thoughtseize or swords.

Kataki (when looking at this build with 4 null rod main) doesn't have as much function as other creatures would unless null rod is not in play. Kataki serves as additional null rod for moxes that are already in play (effectively shutting them down _OR_ turning every two moxes into one mana per turn with the stipulation that the owner must sacrifice one of them). Kataki has no effect within the scope of one turn for moxes that aren't in play which means if the opponent is saving up for one big turn, then kataki will have no effect. Unless there is a high shop presence in your meta, I would not play kataki maindeck; and even then, I wouldn't want to have games stolen by chalice for 2 which is one of the dangerous pitfalls for three-color fish builds.

i dont fully agree about this. Null Rod shuts off artifacts in play, while Kataki may get rid of them or at worst ties up mana to keep artifacts around. lets not overlook the scenario where Null Rod and Kataki stick on the board together. its a nice tag team and Kataki often makes the opponent sacrifice a Mox or a Senseis Top to be able to continue to use its mana to deal with you.
this means, with Kataki around your opponent has to worry about his in play artifacts and this cuts him off the ability to just wait and maybe finally bounce the Rod and go all crazy. its a rare scenario maybe, but the matchups its great against i dont wanna miss Rod together with Kataki. ( 4 Null Rod is pretty much....)
Workshop decks are seeing a comeback and Kataki is a huge mainboard answer that improves match one a lot for...uhm...not much in return.
Chalice @1 and Chalice @2 are not the things you want so see around, but if it is 2 colour or 3 colour fish doesnt make that much of i difference here, as both get screwed if you are unable to counter the Chalice. (i do play Dimirs, Avens, Vindicate and Repeal, so still some non- dead spells around )

Meddling mage can be hard to use if you don't know exactly what you're doing. There isn't always a default card to name. It's specific for each gamestate which can be a bit overwhelming for most people because they'll name the wrong card. It's one of the more difficult cards to cast in the deck and I go back and forth with it. However, it's proven invaluable at times.

that matches my expiriences pretty well. especially in game one, if you dont know what you are up against, it usually wasnt the first guy to walk into the battlefield, but with some sharp guessing he is pretty savage. i had a love/hate relationship and cutted them at some time all together, but as i already said, i wont say that the should get the axe. decreasing the number to three would be a good call imo, as you will see them a little rarer and thus tend to cast them rarer as well, resulting in more chances to make the right assumptions which card to name would be best.
Meddling Mage has rarely been a card i liked to see in my opening hand game one.

With that said, running less than 4 standstill doesn't make too much sense to me because you want to draw as many cards as possible. Standstill is the best option after ancestral recall. I would generally want to have standstill in play as soon as I have more than two damage per turn in play which suggests that I want it probably on turn two-four depending on the matchup. Running only three would greatly reduce the frequency of being able to play it on those turns which is undesirable.

for me its similar to the Meddling Mage issue: standstill and MM are best, if specific conditions occur. for MM that means you know what you are up against and for standtstill (in THIS deck, not in a Standstill deck) it means that you have a bigger thread turned leftwards each attack step than your opponent does.  Standstill is used as kinda draw engine  here, which is very good in the given build and i think with Ninjas, Mishras, Dogs and Cats its a great supplement. again i think cutting one could be a good choice.

[Webster]

Kataki (when looking at this build with 4 null rod main) doesn't have as much function as other creatures would unless null rod is not in play. Kataki serves as additional null rod for moxes that are already in play (effectively shutting them down _OR_ turning every two moxes into one mana per turn with the stipulation that the owner must sacrifice one of them). Kataki has no effect within the scope of one turn for moxes that aren't in play which means if the opponent is saving up for one big turn, then kataki will have no effect. Unless there is a high shop presence in your meta, I would not play kataki maindeck; and even then, I wouldn't want to have games stolen by chalice for 2 which is one of the dangerous pitfalls for three-color fish builds.

I dont fully agree about this. Null Rod shuts off artifacts in play while Kataki may get rid of them or at worst ties up mana to keep artifacts around. Let's not overlook the scenario where Null Rod and Kataki stick on the board together. It's a nice tag team and Kataki often makes the opponent sacrifice a Mox or a Senseis Top to be able to continue to use its mana to deal with you. This means that with Kataki around your opponent has to worry about his artifacts in play which cuts him off the ability to just wait and maybe finally bounce the Rod and go all crazy. It's a rare scenario maybe, but for the matchups it's great against, I don't wanna miss Rod together with Kataki. ( 4 Null Rod is pretty much....)

Against workshop-based decks or any other whose strategy requires having non-moxen artifacts in play to further their game plan, kataki and null rod in play together should have a very positive effect on stopping what they are trying to do. However, against the rest of the field, having both kataki and null rod in play at the same time will be more harmful for the fish deck due to lost tempo because you have to pay  each turn to keep your null rod when you could be using it to advance your board position.

In the situation where you're playing against a non-workshop, non-null rod strategy where kataki and null rod are in play, the opponent will most likely sacrifice their in-play moxen and other trivial artifacts. From that point on, any artifacts drawn will most likely remain in hand in wait to bounce null rod to facilitate a big turn. In this situation, like I described in my earlier post, kataki will do nothing because the artifacts are coming into play the same turn that they are being used. Assuming that there were no artifacts in play, it never really mattered whether kataki was in play. The only relevant issue is the null rod in play and the bounce spell successfully resolving to start a major series of plays.

[iamjimpaine]

I'm a huge fan of trygon predator.  I know that the idea is UWfish, but a green splash of one tropical island to fetch out as necessary isn't too much of a stretch on the ol' mana base.  Maybe in the place of one of the four tundra.  Predator eats things like stax and slaver and it also is a great card against random enchantment decks or aggro decks using jittes/swords (I know this isn't commonplace).

[Pomaxx]

Against workshop-based decks or any other whose strategy requires having non-moxen artifacts in play to further their game plan, kataki and null rod in play together should have a very positive effect on stopping what they are trying to do. However, against the rest of the field, having both kataki and null rod in play at the same time will be more harmful for the fish deck due to lost tempo because you have to pay  each turn to keep your null rod when you could be using it to advance your board position.

well, in the workshop macthup its pretty obvious, that Null Rod is great, Kataki is maybe even better and both together are just awesome. so lets leave this matchup out. i think there will always be some workshop decks (be it 9sphere or anything else) around and Kataki improves game one a lot, which is why i think Kataki deserves a slot.

instead i will try to get back at the argument, that against other decks the combo isnt that great.
we must develop some concrete game states to discuss the usefulness or the two given cards in different matchups.

as an example, against Combo the two cards might be to slow to help enough anyway, but if Rod gets to stick, shutting of their artifact mana, thats good. now dropping Kataki  afterwards is better, as they have to pay upkeep for the gems on table, which with a low land count will become harder.
if Kataki hits play first, that not as good as having Rod in play already, but even that may help a little, if they dont go off right at you and if you are able to make them  tie up some mana during upkeep thats buying you time. you are playing Stifle, Daze and FoW too, so at least some cards to defend the fish player against instant dead.



the upkeep of one colorless mana for your own Rod i am definately willing to pay in most matchups, especially with your UW build. if both cards get into play, it should be turn 2-3 already and maybe its even later, as you dont have to play Kataki asap if the game state doesnt call for it. say you dont hurt the opponent at all (unlikely imo) but have to pay one colorless, your mana base and the overall CC of your critters and spells should  allow you to do so without too much problems.
Kataki beats in for 2 and thats what i love about it. its not like a Rod, that does its thing but doesnt improve your clock actively (it may do so by hindering the opponent, thought). if Kataki isnt the ideal play early on, just wait and play another card.
 with all the Stifle, Wastelands and Dazes i still think its an idealaddition to the UW build.

In the situation where you're playing against a non-workshop, non-null rod strategy where kataki and null rod are in play, the opponent will most likely sacrifice their in-play moxen and other trivial artifacts. From that point on, any artifacts drawn will most likely remain in hand in wait to bounce null rod to facilitate a big turn. In this situation, like I described in my earlier post, kataki will do nothing because the artifacts are coming into play the same turn that they are being used. Assuming that there were no artifacts in play, it never really mattered whether kataki was in play. The only relevant issue is the null rod in play and the bounce spell successfully resolving to start a major series of plays.

i would cheer in joy if my opponent sacs his artifacts...and i would do the same if he pays upkeep for them
seriously, its a good thing to be the UW mini stacks and spit out creatures at the same time.
 without Kataki  the opponent may wait and bounce the Rod finally to use ingame artifacts, which is much harder with Kataki in play, as he has to decide wheter to sac or pay upkeep.
if there are no artifacts around, such is life and maybe you dont wanna play Kataki but another critter instead.

[Vegeta2711]

Kataki is like a Tin Street Hooligan that doesn't actually kill anything right away and shuts off own mana. How bad. I used him against Affinity, but I highly doubt he's very effective against non-shop decks outside of a few corner cases. He's very situational, even for a Fish deck!

[Euphonic]

Hey guys. I dont really post much here but i lurk these halls quite often. I really love what you guys did with the deck list. Webster and Jeff you guys are the shizz. Anyway, i have been toying with the idea of running fish and as i said i like your list. I have been thinking a lot about the sideboard for this deck. I've been considering running a lone swamp and adding jailer to my sideboard. I know the big positives on Leyline, however if it isnt in your opening hand its a complete dead card. Obviously, you would mulligan aggresively into it but drawing a second one seems really terrible. Jailer seems like a good option tho. As far as i can think, ichorid doesnt run any answers to creatures in play. Also, he is a 2/1 body that keeps that game clock running. He turns sideways like a champion and drawing a 2nd or third copy wouldnt be nearly as bad as drawing a second copy of leyline..just a thought. I also like the idea of running arcane labratory/orims chant too. Shutting Bomberman and other combo decks down (Arcane Lab) and the possibility of 4 additional time walks (Orims Chant) seem tasty to me. Any new insight into the sideboard Jeff and Web? Also, can you share more isight into how Arcane Lab and Orims chant might have other utility? Thanks!

Oh and one more thing, how do you deal with chalice?

EDIT:I forgot about contagion, however, replaying a second jailer would be easier than playing a second leyline...iono.

[Euphonic]

Can anyone share some insight? I have a tourney comming up this week and i can really use some advice. Thanks

[senpai]

ive recently had a lot of success with trinket mages in my fish builds. but i play weird, so maybe its just me.

anyways, if you include those you get main deck access to some awesome cards (pithing needle, crypt, ee, top) which improve lots of matches and of course black lotus.

i have also found (perhaps obviously) that standstill and jitte are nuts. run those main-deck, 3/4 and 2/3 copies respectively.

grunt is hot, and so is mage. not to sure on other beaters. maybe mindsensors. personally, i like running a small amount of black to splash in confidants. the card advantage generated off them is nuts.

[Burntgerbil]

I have tinkered with fish off and on since a little before invasion. I really think that there is no "right call" with a lot of decklists, as its success is VERY meta dependent. Sometimes I have seen it come down to matchups. I have been testing a very retro (all merfolk) version of fish lately and stomping a good amount of face with it locally. We have such a small group down here, those results are more than likely skewed, though.

I am just of the opinion that the framework of the deck allows for a lot of great cards. Knowing which cards will be relevant on which day makes fish, for me, like flipping a coin sometimes. That's okay. I like the ability to tweak a deck to my liking and still keep it competitive.

[Euphonic]

So, i have a tourney this weekend and i'll be sure to take note and post a report. Anyway, im running the exact list that Jeff ran at Eudemonia. The only thing i have done is modify the sideboard a bit. This is what im running.

3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stifle
4 Energy Flux
1 StP
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Spell Snare

Expect there to be a LOT of shops and a LOT fish. Ichorid is something that im not sure will show up, but with 4 strip effects,  3 Stifles (1 from board), 3 Crypt, 3 Echoing Truth my matchup shouldnt be too terrible. Flux is of course for shops and the Jittes and Spell Snares are for the mirror match. The only thing im not covering i think is combo. Spell snares may help, along with stifles...iono. Any suggestions and or comments would be appreciated! I cant wait for saturday!!!

[jeffthefob]

Hello.  Sorry, I have been pretty busy working recently and I didn't check these threads.  I have read the last couple posts and here are some of my insights in no particular order.

Against Ichorid you have a couple plans, they are in my tourney report.  It involves stifle + waste effect + win die roll and them mull'ing for G1.  G2 you add in the leyline plan.  Match up against Ichorid is horrible for U/W Fish, but with the proper sideboard I think it can be done.  Normally you would want 2 different answers such as Leyline + Something.  I would always play leyline as the first option. 

Orim's chant is sick.  I have played it before last year and it worked out fine.  I would play it, it is in my sideboard right now.  Arcane lab/rule of law are also options, but yeah... Chant is pretty decent.  Pseudo "Time Walk." They have to give you another turn before killing you, works very well with the creatures on board.

Trinket doesn't work well with Null Rod.  It is either or.  If you found trinket + rod is good... well... awesome? This also goes to the fact that Fish is a metagame deck.  It can vary a lot, but its skeletion should be relatively the same.  The last couple U/W Fish list I saw all ran some number of 1 drops, null rod, and etc etc.  There is a skeletion there, how you change the card is up to your metagame and your comfort level.

BTW, I have Jotun Grunts in my newest list now.  I just find myself lacking something without them.  I also dislike echoing truth, it is there for EtW, but around my area, EtW is rarely played.  Aside from being a blue card, Echoing Truth is worse than StP in today's meta.  Feel free to argue that, but regardless, I would have up to 4 StPs in my Fish list.  I am also not that big fan of Stifle, but playing waste, Rod, and stifle is just.... happy times.  And Stifle deals with strom, despite stifling storm spells is almost impossible against a good player unless they are desperate.

[Euphonic]

Thanks for the reply Jeff. If you wouldnt mind can i see your new list? I have been trying to fit grunt into my deck as well for added pressure on my opponent, however, you orgninal list seems pretty tight. Also, adding grunt makes you more crippled by chalice at 2. It hits so many things in this deck i seriously fear it.

[jeffthefob]

This list doesn't get boned DI by Chalice at 2 all that much to be honest because there are no 4x Bobs. 

I have got back to 3x Null Rod for a Grunt, cut all of the Echoing Truth for another Stp and Grunt.  I am also tinkering with the Stifle number right now; it is always an "out" against Chalice @2 ^^ 3x and 4x Null Rod is something I am still debating about; more testing needs to be done.

Good luck with your tourney sir ^_^

[Euphonic]

Thanks for the well wishes Jeff. The only reason i fear chalice at two is because it hits so many things in our deck. It, by no means, ends the game but its rough. It hits mage, standstill, grunt, rod, kataki(if you choose to run it), time walk, daze...thats all i can think of right now. I've been at work for 15 hours now and im a bit tired. Anyway, i'll take your new changes into consideration for sure. I expect there to be a lot of aggro so going with more StP definatley seems good. I'll have to do some serious testing tomorrow on my day off. After i get some much needed sleep.

[Shean]

A friend of mine played this deck at ICBM Open.  I feel that the deck was a great choice for the metagame.  We expected a lot of CS and Long variants.  In reality, there were 4 CS decks and 5 Long variants out of 37 players, almost 25%.  I believe the 4th Null Rod is more of a metagame decision you have to make.  If you don't expect a lot of CS and combo, I would run 3 Null Rod; however, against CS and combo, the best card in your deck is Null Rod.  It seems to me that you should run 4 of your best card against 25% of the metagame.  Also, we had considered putting the 4th Null Rod in the SB, but decided that it was too important to try to capture G1 against CS and combo.

My friend made some play mistakes that cost him his 2nd match, taking him to the 1-1 bracket where he got paired down.  Fish isn't a deck that performs well in the x-2 bracket, as it is heavily metagamed against the most powerful/popular decks.  For example, his 3rd round match was U/R Landstill, probably one of Fish's worst matchups as they don't care about Null Rod and abuse Standstill much better with the extra manlands.  I believe that if he had won his 2nd match, he would have gotten the matchups he wanted and ended up doing much better.

[Korhil]

I've been testing with Figure of Destiny as a 4 of in the 1 drop slot, cutting some Cat's and Dog's.
He's awesome.

He's replacing 2/2's and 2/1's, so he only has to compare with them to earn his spot, which he does.
There is such minimal tempo loss from playing T1 Figure, T2 Standstill, swing for 1, T3 Swing for 2.

The potential for him to become a 4/4 later on is just a bonus that makes him superior to Cat's and Dog's.

---Korhil