U/W Fish- An "Old" Face on the New Block

[Webster]

I've been testing with Figure of Destiny as a 4 of in the 1 drop slot, cutting some Cat's and Dog's.
He's awesome.

He's replacing 2/2's and 2/1's, so he only has to compare with them to earn his spot, which he does.
There is such minimal tempo loss from playing T1 Figure, T2 Standstill, swing for 1, T3 Swing for 2.

The potential for him to become a 4/4 later on is just a bonus that makes him superior to Cat's and Dog's.

---Korhil

You're overvalueing Figure of Destiny's actual usefulness.

You're always going to be tapped out from playing other spells, swinging with factory, et al.

In truth, you'll never actually make Figure of Destiny a 4/4; it's just not realistic.

Replacing naturally 2-powered 1-cc men for 2-powered 1-cc men with an upkeep doesn't make sense.

[Korhil]

Replacing naturally 2-powered 1-cc men for 2-powered 1-cc men with an upkeep doesn't make sense.

Your reference to an upkeep confuses me.
Any size changes are permanent, he doesn't revert back to a 1/1 at end of turn or anything.
He costs twice as much to get 2 power initially, but after that he's just another 2/2 until you find you have the 3 mana to spend on permanently making him a 4/4.

Finding the 1 mana to make him a 2/2 is pretty easy. Having the ability to also later become a 4/4 makes him superior IMO.

---Korhil

[KnowmaD]

At first glance Figure of destiny looked like rubbish. Not having to end the effect makes a big difference.   Becoming a 4/4 or more is realistic, giving this card a decent end game.  Though U/W is not where this guy belongs IMO.

[The Duressed]

The ability for thins thing to become 4/4 is by no means irrelevant; in reality, it's the only real case for this card. The fact that it is more relevant as a late-game topdeck than Isamaru or Savannah Lions is what makes it playable. There are 2 major problems with it, though:

1) Tempo loss. The deck wins with a "soft lock" and a quick clock. It has its very foundations laid upon tempo. It could only be a 1 life difference (sometimes relevant), but if it's your only one-drop and then you have other things to do on turns 2, 3, and even 4 that are more important than getting that extra 1 damage in there, it could easily be game-breaking.

2) Anti-synergy. Beware of its major, major anti-synergy with Ninja of the Deep Hours. For this reason alone, I would venture to say that you should not play this guy as a 4-of. The 1-drops are extremely important in terms of getting Ninja out and in there, and the last thing you want to do, as this is a tempo deck, is waste time and mana.

I could see it becoming a 2- or 3-of, but I couldn't imagine it as a 4-of for the two above reasons.

edit: the term "soft lock" was a poor choice of words. All I really meant to say was that you want to win quickly while screwing your opponent as much as possible. The use of the term "lock" was poor, and I advise you all to stay away from it. You don't win with a lock of any kind; you just win with quick beats and tempo advantage.

[Patoon]

I think Figure of Destiny is a terrible card in this deck.

I played UW Fish in the Australian National Championships a week ago, and came third (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18357)

All day I faced shop, and i spent my whole day searching out basic lands. There was not a point all day in which i had access to 4 White mana.

I think it is very unrealistic to think that you will regularly have access to 4 white mana, and as mentioned before, when you do not have it you simply have a creature which is worse that Isamaru.

IMO this is not the right list for Figure of Destiny

(Dont get my wrong i think it is a good card, but this is not his home in vintage, maybe TMWA..?)

[jeffthefob]

I agree with most of the people here on why Figure of Destiny isn't good.  Mana is an issue; hard to get it to 4/4 and in early games you want to spend your mana elsewhere.  True that Figure may be decent in Fish mirror or aggro. match up because it is a war of attrition, but I would just play Jotun Grunts.  And if you aren't playing Jotun Grunts, then... ^^|||||

Btw, here is the newest list I have been using.  Got 9th last time /w a scoop to a buddy.  ><

2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Icatian Javelineers
4 Meddling Mage
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Jotun Grunts
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Standstill
3 Null Rod
3 Swords of Plowshares
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Energy Flux
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Orim's Chant
1 Null Rod
1 Swords to Plowshares

SB really varies on what you think you will see.  The 4th Chant and the 4th Rod are metagame choices, I had 2 Spellsnares in that place.

[Patoon]

3 Stifle

Despite what you have said earlier about stifle, i see you have reverted to using them. I removed them as a late change from my list, as i initially felt they were the weakest card in the list. But in hindsight i wish i had of had them in there. (i.e. stifle jar activation would have been nice)

How have you found them?

3 Wasteland

Do you ever find yourself wishing you had 4?

I found that having 5 strip effects really gave me control to complement the null rods. I also found that i could keep hands with less counter magic, as strip effects were just as effective.

e.g. Wasteland, Wasteland, Plains, Mishra's Factory, Force of Will, Standstill, Swords to Plowshares

Its game two (1 to me) against MUD w/ Staff.

After much consideration i kept, and this hand won the game 5 turns later, testament to the power of Wastelands

SB really varies on what you think you will see.  The 4th Chant and the 4th Rod are metagame choices, I had 2 Spellsnares in that place.

Aside from Kataki (many stax opponents) I found Spell snares to be on of the MVP's out of the board, hitting so many valuable targets. Would you ever consider them maindeck? (dont ask what for, but if i had to suggest something i would say stifle)

[Bongo]

People always want to play creatures with utility like Cursecatchers and Stormscape Apprentice. Well, you have to look at it like this: the one extra power in their stats is the utility. Fish decks can’t dick around; they have to generate enough damage each turn to make the tempo cards that they play mean something. The two powered creatures are crucial.

I've been testing with the list of the opening post, and it has been very good. However, Icatian Javelineers have been underwhelming, I'd rather have more two-powered beaters. You even provide excellent reasoning as to why running 1-power guys is bad.
There are enough decks that don't use Welder or Confidant, and I don't think it's worth to worsen your matchups against those decks. Also, an active Welder has done its job most of the time, you really need the Javelineers before Welder gets active, so it isn't the best solution imho.

The changes I suggest are:

-3 Icatian Javelineer
+2 Savannah Lion
+1 Swords to Plowshares

What do you think of those changes?

[jeffthefob]

@Platoon: First, congrats on your finish I have find Stifles to be pretty decent.  If you do play a lot of type 1 I suggest you play with them for at least once or twice.  This way people will always play around Stifle even if you don't have it in the future.  Stifle is one of those cards I switch in and out a lot depending.  For now; I like them.  Mainly because I don't have Echoing Truth anymore and Stifle is another answer to EtW.  I can see you cutting them for something else, it is perfectly valid IMO.

Second, regarding wasteland #5.  When I played U/W Fish last year I had 4 waste effects because the 5th one is just way too much.  It even affected an outcome of a game where I just need to draw a blue producing land when I drew DI waste effects.  The reason why I play 4 is because a lot of list play a fair amount of basics.  Again, if you think 5 waste effect is what you need and you like it, then go ahead and run it.  I just find 4 a plenty, along with stifles. :-p

As for the hand you kept, against Workshops, having FoW is key.  Having a basic also helps.  Sometime Stax player would keep workshop + lock pieces, and if you FoW their lock piece and then waste their land, they may be crippled.  But against Grim Long or CS, waste would be a much different story. 

Lastly regarding Spellsnare.  Web and I joked this card as the "catch all," like Seal of Cleansing.  There are cards better than Spellsnare and Seal of Cleansing regarding specific match up, but these 2 cards can be boarded in against multiple match ups where they are okay.  For me, Snare is good against Oath, Fish Mirrors, maybe GWSx (because of the Bobs and Cabal rituals... :-/), it isn't all that exciting against Workshop unless they are playing 8x spheres, even so, I still am not too excited about that.  Another target is Mana Drains I would guess, but do we really have that much trouble against Drain decks? :-/

Maybe I had missed something about it, what do you think?  Spellsnare was in the Fish I played in Flash era because it dealt with Flash and there were a lot of Tyrant Oath; I played with Spellsnares then, but now it is just ain't that good.

@ Bongo.  I played with 7 1-drop 2-powered dorks before.  4x Cat and 3x Dog.  I think your change is definitely fine, 4x StP can be really rewarding or not depending on your meta of course.  But Javelineers are there to deal with Welders and Bobs.  With the 3x Javlineer and 3x Stp in my list I got 6 ways to deal with them while you only got the 4 StP.  However, if you don't see much Welders and Bobs, then sure Just something to think about, but having more 2-powered beaters is definitely not "wrong," I think you should do it if feel Javlineers are that bad and moving to 4 StP is definitely something you need to do if you are cutting 3x Jav.

This is what so perfect about U/W Fish, constantly changing and all these suggestions (Stifles, 5x Waste, more 2-powered Dorks, SB options) are very reasonable while they do not interfere with the purpose of the deck.  Let me hear some more results after you guys play with these changes

[Mdizzle4life85]

nothing was banned it was a restriction list.

[Patoon]

I have find Stifles to be pretty decent.  If you do play a lot of type 1 I suggest you play with them for at least once or twice.  This way people will always play around Stifle even if you don't have it in the future. 

LOL, i already have a pretty good stifle playing reputation in my area Daze is another card very much like this

Lastly regarding Spellsnare.  Web and I joked this card as the "catch all," like Seal of Cleansing.  There are cards better than Spellsnare and Seal of Cleansing regarding specific match up, but these 2 cards can be boarded in against multiple match ups where they are okay.  For me, Snare is good against Oath, Fish Mirrors, maybe GWSx (because of the Bobs and Cabal rituals... :-/), it isn't all that exciting against Workshop unless they are playing 8x spheres, even so, I still am not too excited about that.  Another target is Mana Drains I would guess, but do we really have that much trouble against Drain decks? :-/

I have found that spell snare trades nicely with daze. I found that every game it came in game two. I mean when your opponent see daze game 1 they will play around it in game two, then you have the hard counter for their two drops

Against shop i think snare is better than daze, i mean you want to keep your lands on the table to assist through lock pieces. Snare also takes card of the lock pieces themselves

But also it fights their hate very well, with them bringing in Powder kegs, and pyroclasms it helps save your team

Not to mention snares ability against Drain decks

I definitly think that 3 in the board is a good choice

[jeffthefob]

Again, it really depends on what your opponents bring in.  Obviously, if you know opponents are bringing in Pyroclasm, then of course.  But again, what if they don't? Are Spellsnares good against other things in your opponent's deck?  I rarely find "no" to this.  Second, you wanted to play 5 Waste Effect, which is perfectly a fine choice.  However, if you do so, then play with 3x Daze.  The only time I boarded out Daze before is Fish Mirrors/Aggro Mirrors, but nowadays I always keep Daze in to keep my opponents honest.  It is much easier to play around Stifle but playing around Daze is much less of an opinion if your 2-powered beaters are applying pressure.

If you expect your Drain deck opponents to keep in 4x Drains against your post board....... then...... of course Spellsnare is good.  I am no experts in Drain decks, but I had a good conversation with Webster on this; I don't think it is right for Drain decks to keep all 4x Drains against Fish postboard. 

With the new list boarding against Stax I would probably switch the 3 Stifle with 3 Energy Flux.  The 4th Null Rod vary the version your opponent's Stax, or depending on your feeling against opponent's deck.  The 4th StP seems pretty wise too honestly, probably would take out a Ninja for it.  I just wouldn't even touch Daze; it isn't a good enough of a reason to board out Daze when you are playing Rods and 5 Waste Effects because people will play around it.  The truth is, sometime they can't afford to and it does happen. 

[The Duressed]

Jeffthefob,
I like your list and find it interesting, but it really seems extremely relevant for us all to know what you expected to see in your metagame, what you actually saw, and just a few comments on that. Your feedback would be greatly appreciated!

[jeffthefob]

nothing was banned it was a restriction list.

Thanks a lot for keeping up with the thread since the very first post and your useful contribution to this thread.

Jeffthefob,
I like your list and find it interesting, but it really seems extremely relevant for us all to know what you expected to see in your metagame, what you actually saw, and just a few comments on that. Your feedback would be greatly appreciated!

I don't think it is extremely relevant for you to know my metagame.  It is important for you to know your metagame and how to correctly board for that.  But my meta is usually around 20-25 players.  There will be 1-2 Stax, 4-5 Grim Long, 1 Salvager, 1 Oath (2 at the last one), Drain Tendrils, GWSx, 1 Ichorid, 1 Landstill, 1-2 Painter, 2-3 Fish, and... sometime 2x Belcher and of course some CS's.  You get the picture... very diverse and a good amount of Tendril based decks. 

I have been very happy with my sideboard despite it seems like I don't unitize it very well.  I don't like going into a match up where I don't have anything against, thus the 3 Energy Flux and 4x Leyline.  I have been running Leylines and Flux for a while, sure I don't use the much.  But everytime when I do play with them they work wonders; aka: win.  Although there is no Flash now, I am not so sure about Leyline.  But hey, the Sapphire that I split I played Ichorid in the Semi's and I got there.  Anyways, hope it helped. ^^

[Prodigal_Sorceress]

Has anyone tried to run Mystic Remora over Standstill? I have found it has essentially the same effect at times, and if they just play through it, you draw tons of carrds. I also like it because it adds a liittle more meaning to "Fish". Yes, it is another 1 drop, but if you are playing in the mirror, it absolutely kills the competition. Imagine playing through that. Also, another good option is Rhystic Study. It is often a one-sided blue Sphere of Resistance, or just tons of CA to get your permission engine going. I am also running Counterspell over Daze, just because, as much as I like to counter with no mana, I prefer to just counter the spell. Also, Aether Vial at 1 and 2 work wonders until you get Null Rod out, and that has usually made up for the mana you sunk into Mystic Remora by that time. Thoughts?

[Webster]

Has anyone tried to run Mystic Remora over Standstill in a tournament after they found out it was very very bad in testing?

Fixed. The answer is 'probably not'.

I question whether you understand the meaning of 'tempo'.

I have found it has essentially the same effect at times, and if they just play through it, you draw tons of carrds. I also like it because it adds a liittle more meaning to "Fish". Yes, it is another 1 drop, but if you are playing in the mirror, it absolutely kills the competition. Imagine playing through that.

While standstill and mystic remora have some similarities, being blue enchantments that draw cards, the two cards function better in different deck strategies. Standstill is best utilized in decks that set up a favorable board position and then play standstill giving the opponent the ultimatum of:

'Attempt to deal with this board and let me draw 3 or die.'

The burst of card advantage generated from standstill helps refill the hand with more threats and push through to victory. Decks with cheap threats, like fish, have the easiest time facilitating effective use of standstill.


Mystic remora is more of a niche card. Its functions are in two places:

1. In matchups/metagames where the opposing deck(s) throw a bunch of non-creature spells at you very quickly.
2. Decks that want to bury you in card advantage, trading 1-for-1 as much as possible, while drawing extra cards.

Mystic remora helps stop decks trying to win fast by giving you access to potentially multiple pitch counters to stop them and allow you to reach the midgame where your spells are going to be better than theirs. The decks that play remora main want to reach the late game such as MUC, landstill, and other drain-based archetypes.

While standstill and mystic remora both play a role in maintaining tempo, forcing the opponent to play at a pace undesirable for them, they achieve it in different ways. Mystic remora is a mana 'black hole' and is the opposite of what fish wants.

Also, another good option is Rhystic Study. It is often a one-sided blue Sphere of Resistance, or just tons of CA to get your permission engine going.

The problem with rhystic study is that it costs three mana and goes against what UW fish is trying to do. Fish, specifically UW, is a prison deck; it comtains cards like null rod, strip mine, wasteland, meddling mage, force of will, daze, stifle, et al. which help prevent the opponent from casting spells in the first place. Rhystic study does not lend to this strategy, and even if it did, I would still question its inclusion because it costs more mana than any other spell in the deck.

I am also running Counterspell over Daze, just because, as much as I like to counter with no mana, I prefer to just counter the spell.

Again, you have to go back and understand the theory behind aggro control strategies. The loss of tempo associated with leaving mana open for counterspells is detrimental to the core strategy of fish.

Also, Aether Vial at 1 and 2 work wonders until you get Null Rod out, and that has usually made up for the mana you sunk into Mystic Remora by that time.

The problem with this line of thought is that you generally want null rod out as soon as possible. If you are running less than four null rods and running aether vials instead, then you'd probably be better off replacing the aether vials with null rod #x-4 plus other better cards _OR_ cutting null rods for four chalice of the void, some mox control like gorilla shaman, and switching to more of an URBana fish approach.

Thoughts?

You are running too many cards that conflict with each other:

Null rod and aether vial.
Mystic remora and 2-mana counterspells in the "I-want-to-tap-down-every turn-to-play-creatures.dec".

You'd be better off either playing either a fast-paced deck like fish or something like landstill. Each of those decks' playstyles align with some of your statements but are exclusive of each other in the way that they use cards to control game tempo which is the main point that you don't understand.

[Prodigal_Sorceress]

Huh. Well, it seems that my main problem is that I am not playing Fish like someone should play fish. I am fairly new to Vintage, and extremely new to the Fish archetype. Most of the decks that I have played are either blow-up-and-win.dec, or card_advantage.dec. This is my current decklist:

//Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Island
3 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Library of Alexandria
1 The Tabernacle at Pendle Valle
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter (Wastelands are a little hard to find where I come from)

//Artifacts
3 Null Rod
4 Aether Vial

//Card draw / Spells
4 Mystic Remora
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

//Creatures
3 Meddling Mage
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Savannah Lions
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Glowrider

My main problem is deciding what to put in the slots that will be vacated by Aether Vial. I suppose that is where the Icatian Javelineers should go, but I can also see that there may be some problems with my mana base. If you could make some suggestions on my list, that would be great. Here is what I have already:

-4 Mystic Remora
+4 Standstill

-4 Counterspell
+4 Daze

-4 Aether Vial
+3 Icatian Javelineers
+1 ?

Also, what are your thoughts on Academy ruins to reoccur Null Rod when needed?

[The Duressed]

Academy Ruins seems like a very slow way to try to force through a spell. It's also mana-intensive, and is yet another colorless-producing land. I really think that it's just too slow and doesn't do enough (especially considering that Null Rod is the only thing you'll really want to recur).

Also, I would add in the 4th Null Rod in the "+1 ?" slot, but that's because I expect a ton of Control Slaver in my meta.



Fob, I really do think that metagame considerations are important, since this is a metagame deck. Your meta doesn't seem to have a strong focus on CS, and as such you are able to relegate the 4th Rod to the sideboard. On the other hand, my meta practically revolves around it, and so I don't feel like I have any choice but to put the 4th Rod main.

Your comments were really all I needed to see, and so I thank you. I wanted to know if you were only running the 3 rods in a CS-centric metagame, because that seems like an important deck building point.

I do have one further question for you, though: What exactly are you killing with your Icatian Javelineers? Your meta doesn't seem to focus on CS, so I suppose that the answer might be that you want them in for Fish and for Stax's Goblin Welders. Have they been worth it for you? Please be detailed! ^^

[Prodigal_Sorceress]

While my meta isn't mainly focused around CS, there are a lot of Workshop Aggro decks running around, and two of my targets are Goblin Welder (which is a bitch to deal with otherwise) and Dark Confidant. I also have trouble against decks like Goblins, and it is therefor important to take out their Goblin Lackeys as soon as possible. It also takes care of the mirror match, where I can ping Lions, opposing Javelineers, Cursecatcher, or most of the other wizards that are being run in other control decks. As of yet, I am most worried about Ichorid and Workshop. I don't know how fast Control Slaver is, but I feel that with my heavy focus towards aggro with Jotun Grunt I can take them out fairly quickly, given the lack of blockers.

Changes to the list:
-1 Academy Ruins
+1 Ghost Quarter

Currently using Ponder in the open slot until a decision is made about Null Rod (Or I find a fourth Null Rod XD)

[edit]
Believe it or not, I played in the mirror today. It was a really mindwracking test of skill and wit, so I learned a few things.
1. If they FoW your standstill, you are winning.
2. Meddling Mage is really hard to play around, unless you play MM naming Meddling Mage.
3. Glowrider is also really hard to play round, as well as being a decent beater.
4. Ghost Quarter isn't really all that great, it just removes threats at the cost of a 1 for 2.
5. MD removal or bounce is a really good idea.

So, I want to MD some StPs or Echoing truths, but to be honest, I am not sure what to take out. I was thinking that it may take the 4th slot, where the ponder is, and I could cut one of the Dazes, as I see so many of these lists doing.

-1 Ponder
-1 Daze
+2 Echoing Truth

[jeffthefob]

@Duressed.  CS isn't popular around my area.  But there is always a couple players that run Welders, mainly the 2 Painter decks.  Javlineers also kill Bobs which is a common creature to see around the area.  Many of the combo decks board in Bob post board, so Javlineers are nice there too.  Against Fish mirror it is also somewhat decent.  But I must agree that it is the weakest link in the deck; there is a high chance that I will change it.  Most likely I will change the number of 1 drops around, Cursecatcher is a possibility.  If I do that, I will up the StP count to 4 most likely.

I believe the 4th Rod in the sideboard is correct as Grim Long is a popular deck in my area (and everywhere else I guess ^^), and there are random 2x Belchers sometime.  Hope it helped

[Campee]

I LOVE Fish and I've strayed from it lately. I think the days of 3 color fish are gone with the absence of Brainstorm. You really needed it to fix your mana and to get to your best cards in a hurry.

As for this deck list, it's interesting and I was very happy to see an Icatian Javelineer hit the table when JeffTheFob played this at a recent Eudemonia tournament. I did a little bit of testing with this list and found that being able to cast Meddling Mage on a regular basis was difficult. I kept getting hands that were full of lands that produced colorless mana. It was tight when I drew one of my moxes, but I usually ended up casting Null Rod ASAP which kinda hurt me.

Also, I'd like to give my opinion on Cursecatcher. This card seems very bad. I mean, at least with Daze you have surprise value. How hard is it to play around something that's on the board? He's also not much of a clock. Spiketail Hatchling saw some play a while ago, but he can Force Spike anything.. not just an instant or sorcery. Also, he flies, so he was evasion. Personally, I wouldn't play either, but if I had to choose one or the other I think I'd go with Spiketail Hatchling in this list, especially because you play Ninjas.

That said, I'm looking forward to the T1 tournaments this weekend at Eudemonia very much!

[Prodigal_Sorceress]

During my trials, I have noticed that Glowrider is often subpar once you have your Standstill softlock, because your opponent probably doesn't care what his cards cost to cast. I think that the card advantage off the Ninja is much better, especially because he essentially costs 1U to cast. I think I will try Glowriders sideboard for now, right next to those pesky Ronom Unicorns in my SB. Super-secret tech - Oath hates a resolved Unicorn.

[The Duressed]

If your meta entails a significant amount of Stax, I would get away from Glowrider. Trying to lock Stax out with a sphere effect just seems like a poor course of action. What you can do, on the other hand, is run more solid answers and threats. If I were you, I would relegate the Glowriders to the side (at best; I don't much care for this guy in general. He's really slow for a sphere effect, and his power and toughness leave much to be desired) and add in some sort of relevant metagame creature. For you specifically, depending on the amount of Stax you really expect, maybe jam some Katakis into the main, or perhaps just go for Ninja of the Deep Hours (I say "maybe ninja" because you'll have a tough time drawing cards with him in a Stax-saturated meta). Also, I would cut the Echoing Truths in favor of Swords to Plowshares, which is better in almost every match-up.

[Prodigal_Sorceress]

Thanks, although I don't think my meta has very much Stax. It is almost all Bomberman, Shop Aggro, Shop Combo, Control Slaver (only a few), Oath, GroATog, and various Drain Tendrils/GrimLong/Other Tendrils Variant. There are a few Fish decks, but it seems we are more focused on combo or aggro than anything else. Glowrider is good aganist Bomberman, Tendrils variants, and other Fish (RBW) decks, although it is often a little late to hit the board in the meta. I will go with the STPs, although I often have trouble getting rid of Grim Lavamancer, as they usually just shock my Javelineers before I can ping it. Any suggestions? I currently have Ninja in the Glowrider slot, but I am really thinking of jamming Kataki in there.

[Sean Ryan]

If you haven't checked these out yet do so:

Feinstein's primmer
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30089.0

A post with a U/b/w list as well
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33734.0

Obviously they are dated pre-restriction, but the fundamentals still hold true.

[The Duressed]

Well, the champs are over. The top 8:

1. Long
2. Slaver
3. Slaver
4. Long
5. Oath
6. Dredge
7. Painter
8. DT

More info can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/usnat08/vintage2

Before I say "Where were you scrubs?  " to you all, I'd like to give props to Moxlotus for a very strong showing with a  fish build, barely missing the outrageously stacked top 8 by losing in the final round of swiss. So, those things said, let's discuss. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found the overall field breakdown of the day, but we can at least take a look at how we want to beat the decks that were successful. Have at it!

A few notes of mine:

Null Rod is still amazing.
Spell Snare just got even better against Drain decks (Strategic Planning is gonna see a bunch of play now).
With Long out as a very strong force in the meta, Cursecatcher is getting better (provided you didn't think he was good already).

[Soon-Man]

Sorry, I accidentally posted this in the wrong thread so I am reposting it here. I have read most of the pages in this thread and I think there is some great insight in here. Using that and my own experience I made what I think is a kind weird list. I'll post if up and feed back would be appreciated. I'll give reasons I play ever card in the deck and why I chose not to play with other cards.

Lands:19
4 Flooded Stand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Island
1 Plains

Creatures:16
4 Meddling Mage
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Icatian Javeliners
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Artifacts:6
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

Spells/Enchantments:19
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

Side Baord:15
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 True Believer
3 Echoing Truth
2 Pithing Needle
2 Kataki, War's Wage


Mana Base: Ok, this is pretty simple. My cards are UW so I play lands that Produce U and/or W. Between 4 searches, 4 duals, 3 basics, 2 moxes and Lotus I have never found mana screw to be a problem.

Wasteland/Strip Mine: Bazaar, Library, Academy, Factory, ect, are all huge pains in the ass. They need to go.......yeah, pretty simple.

Meddling Mage: Again, this is simple. Its a UW deck and he is a really good UW creature that can stop your opponent from playing key cards(duh).

Savannah Lions: Every game you pretty much need a solid one drop to get things going and to back up your standstill/null rod. Originally I played 2 of these. Then after testing I realized that I wasn't drawing into them nearly enough.  Also in the late games sometimes I find that I am able to stop my opponent from winning, but I am not able to win myself because I don't have a creature down. Adding 2 more Lions was as much to have a better chance at open handing a 2 power 1 drop as it was just to increase the chance of drawing creatures in general.

Isamaru: He is basically just Lions that doesn't die to dark blast. Everything I said about Lions applies to this. He is Legendary so I kept still just play 2 of him.

Javelineers: He takes out Bob, He takes out Welder, he even takes out Narcomoeba. If you are on the play he is great. He either takes out Bob/Welder before get a chance to be used or the sight of him will cause your opponent to not play Bob/Welder and waste removal on him so they can land their Bob/Welder. In game 1 he can be annoying vs Dredge because he can down a Narc and keep the other player from casting Dread Return or Chump and Damage on Stack kill a Narc. Neither of those is a particularly great play, but the point is that he isn't a dead card vs Dredge. Now the thing is that on the draw and against decks that don't run Bob/Welder he is pretty much just Mogg Fanatic, but since this isn't exactly an aggressive red deck, that isn't really that good. So my thought is that something in the Board gets moved to the main board and he goes to the board to be used when you are on the draw against (once again) Bob/Welder. BTW, I think Echoing Truth is the card that would get moved in. Also, I know there is other good 1 toughness creatures, but Bob/Welder are the two that I personally see as the most dangerous and most worth mentioning 5 times.

Ninja: The Idea is that with Standstill out I can use him to draw a card without triggering Standstill. I am not sold though. After playing with him I really don't think he is that great. The plan is to have a creature or Factory out with standstill. My guys swing in and then I Ninja for one card. The problem is that he doesn't add pressure or decrease my clock. Having to bounce a 2 power creature for a 2 power creature and one card doesn't seem good enough. Now I have a guy in hand that I can't play until my opponent breaks standstill. Sure the one card is nice, but I think the fact that he doesn't add pressure makes me want to seek a more aggressive guy. Optimally I want to run an aggressive blue creature(if there is such a thing, lol). I think it should be blue so I can pitch it to FoW.

Force of Will: I could explain how this is very powerful card and why it's powerful. Somehow I think you know this already.

Standstill: The plan with this card is to have out a 2 power creature and then play it. Get in a couple of swings before your opponent breaks it and gives you 3 cards for your two mana. That or the opponent breaks it at right away and give you 3 cards for your 2 mana. No matter what happens it causes your opponent to make suboptimal plays. He either has to wait and then try make some crazy play the turn he breaks it in which case you have most likely drawn a counter(s) or you will draw one off the standstill. Or he will break it immediately by playing a spell that he didn't have to/want to at that point in time. If you don't have a creature down its still a good card. If you simply have nothing to do, playing it will give you something to do. Your opponent will either counter giving you one less counter to worry about or it will stick and force your opponent to give you 3 cards if they want to continue with their game plan. In my experience, Standstill is the corner stone of this deck.

Null Rod: Artifacts can't use activated abilities. That means no moxes, no mana crypt, no mana vault, no gridestone, no nothing. Yeah, it turns off your shit, but this deck only runs a 2 moxes and lotus, no huge loss.

Daze: I was actually thinking about replacing Daze. The first time I played the deck I didn't use my own build, so Daze was in it. Turns out that its a great card for buying an extra turn when a combo deck tries to go off first chance. Pretty much takes your opponents ability to tap out away once they have seen it. Its also pretty good vs Dredge. Dredge most of the time doesn't play mana, so when it tries to Dread Return you pretty much have a no draw back counter.

Stifle: Its time walk. your opponent tries to activate anything to start momentum they can't. Best use I have seen is on Fetch lands. They can't get the mana they need and will 90% of the time pass their turn/have nothing on their turn.

Swords: 1 mana, stop the threat. I figured having a weenie deck, giving your opponent life would mean you will loose the game, but not here. If you hit a darksteel they just tinkered for they get 11 life, but now they don't have tinker. They are pretty much out of steam. Your little guys will win eventually. And at one mana you can use it to take out important early stuff like Welder, Bob, Goyf, Meddling Mages.

Time Walk/Ancestral Recall: Its a blue deck.

Side Board;
Crypt: Vs Dredge, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will. A well timed Crypt is just as good as anything else.

Believer: Vs Dredge, Combo, Black decks. I played him in my board because I couldn't think of anything else. Turns out that most combo decks can't do anything vs this guy. They normally have bounce, but with this deck its pretty easy to protect your guys against the simple removal. If you can get him down turn 1 or 2 you can protect yourself from Duress, Unmask, Thoughtsieze, ect.. Against Dredge he is surprisingly good. He protects you from Unmask and Cabal Therapy. He is also a beater who at worst is a chump.

Echoing Truth: Vs Anything: Removes Zombie tokens, Goblin Tokens, Colossus, Platinum, Akroma and Even titans. Like I said earlier, I think this should be in the main board. I have never tested with it main, so I can't be positive. Would like feedback on this.

Pithing Needle: Anything, You know what it does. It's pretty simple. Your opponent has something that does something you don't like. Now it doesn't do anything. Great vs dredge. Turns off Bazaar.

Kataki, War's Wage: Vs Artifacts: It makes artifacts have upkeeps. Puts a hell of a hole in your opponents mana. On top of that he is a solid beater.

Things that didn't make the deck;
Jotun Grunt: I played with it. It was ok. Unless I was playing against Dredge it didn't last very long and really swung any games my why. Creature heavy decks aren't that popular so its not like I need the defense. Even vs Dredge it wasn't that great. I would keep putting stuff in their library and they would redredge their whole deck the next turn and over run me.

Cursecatcher: I was thinking that this was actually going to be in the deck over Ninja. A couple things made me cut it. First off, its only a 1/1, which means it can't really beat. The other idea was that I would play him over Javelineers, but since catchers ability doesn't work on creatures, I think Javelineers is better.

Aven Mindcensor: I ran him in the original build that I used. He wasn't that bad. He stops all search effects which turned out to be pretty important. In the end what does him in is costing 3 mana. On average any time I could play him I could also 2 more important things. His 2/1 body and only stopping search lands about 1/3 of the time isn't that great. He is still a powerful card that almost went into the SB. Basically I haven't made up my mind yet about this card, but I think that the slots in the deck are better used.

Morningtide: 2 mana, time it well and you can put a stop to dredge, resurrection effects and isn't stopped by chalice. I picked crypt over it because crypt is free and I can use at instant speed. If this was an instant I would play it in a heart beat. I just feel the the ability to use crypt in response to something is better then having to cast this on my turn.

Leyline of the Void: This was in the board of the original deck and it really didn't work out. It's useless if I don't open hand it and I am not going to mull away a good hand to look for it. Then If I draw into it it's a dead card.

Splash Options;
Black Splash: Black would open me up to Bob, Thoughtsieze, Duress and Leyline. How ever I feel the cuts I would have to make are too big.
Standstill>Dark Confidant
Force of Will>Thoughsieze
Daze>Duress
Tormord's Crypt>Leyling of the Void
(> is not "greater than", its "replaces")
I think that I would rather have counters in this deck over disruption. Right now I rate standstill over bob for this deck.

Red Splash: Red would give me Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Bolt, Red Elemental Blast and Sulfuric Vortex. I actually like the idea of red. I just haven't gotten around to actually making up and testing out a list. I imagine the cuts would look something like this.
Icatian Javelineers>Grim Lavamancer
Daze>Lightning Bolt
True Believer>Red Elemental Blast
Standstill>Sulfuric Vortex
I think taht REB is one of the best board cards there is. Most decks at least splash blue. Bolt is good solid removal that can also finish people. Lavamancers maybe be one the best red one drops. The two cards you need isn't hard to get between lands, removal, counters and creatures dieing. Sulfuric vortex is an aggressive card that forces in damage to help the weenies win and even makes it so my opponent gets nothing when I Swords his Colossus. I think Vortex isn't needed though, Keeping standstill or even Daze would be better because standstill cost 3 and is double R. So really I don't see the problem with the red splash, I just haven't tested it.

I hope all this info was helpful and I will get some helpful feed back.

[nineisnoone]

Has anyone tried out Sygg, River Cutthroat?

I could see it work as a complement to Standstill.  Both (basically) require you to play 2 power creatures ahead of them, and both assume that those creatures are free to attack.  Sygg gives you steady card draw, while Standstill gives you burst card draw. 

Additionally, he survives blocking Dark Confidant (and Dogs and Cats) and can even trigger you a draw because of an opposing Dark Confidant.

[Soon-Man]

I haven't tested with it, but I can imagine that he wouldn't be that great. I think that only having one power kinda hurts. More importantly what would you take out for him? I think that if your going to play black you might as well just stick with Bob.

[nineisnoone]

Well, you could just play UU to stay in UW and not splash black.
And I would cut 1x Meddling Mage and 1x Ninja of the Deep Hours.