Type 4 [Eventide]

[darkmindtone]

It's that time again.....to discuss additions to Type 4 from the newest set:

Archon of Justice   3ww
Creature - Archon   Rare
Flying
When Archon of Justice is put into a graveyard from play, remove target permanent from the game.
4/4

This guy seems solid, but I'm not sure he's at the power level necessary to see play currently in Type 4. 

Creakwood Ghoul   4b
Creature- Plant Zombie   Uncommon
{bg}{bg}:Remove target card in a graveyard from the game.You gain 1 life
#34/180   3/3

This guy on the other hand, seems awesome.  Much better than Withered Wretch, but not as broken as Nezumi Graverobber. 

Hateflayer   5rr
Creature - Elemental   Rare
Wither
2{R}, : Hateflayer deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player.
Illus. Thomas M. Baxa   #55/180   5/5

This guy seems kinda, meh, but he does effectively swing for 10 each turn, with 5 of it targeted anywhere you want and at instant speed. 

Thunderblust   2rrr
Creature - Elemental   Rare
Haste
Thunderblust has trample as long as it has a -1/-1 counter on it.
Persist (When this creature is put into a graveyard from play, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to play under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)
Illus. Dan Scott      7/2

Normally I don't really like haste creatures without evasion (I play Rorix but not Ashen Monstrosity/Stalking Vengence), but the built-in protection does have me wanting to test it (I do run Eron the Relentless, and this creatures seems similar). 

Wicker-bough Elder   3g
Creature - Treefolk Shaman   Common
Wicker-Bough Elder comes into play with a -1/-1 counter on it.
, Remove a -1/-1 counter from Wicker-bough Elder : Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
"Living Scarecrows make a mockery of the living order. Dead ones make fine hats."
#80/180   4/4

I run (and like) Indrik Stomphowler, and this creature seems better most of the time, as the ability can be done at Instant speed. 

Unmake   {wb}{wb}{wb}
Instant   Common
Remove target creature from the game.
A gwyllion's favorite trap is the vanity mirror. A bewitched piece of glass traps the looker's soul and does away with the body.
Illus. Stephen Belledin   #96/180   

This will be an obvious auto-include.  It's amazing removal that everyone should be playing. 

Mirror Sheen   1{ur}{ur}
Enchantment   Rare
1{ur}{ur}: Copy target instant or sorcery spell that targets you. You may choose new targets for the copy.
Illus. John Avon   #105/180   

This is a card I won't run because it's broken, but some of you seem to like cards like this (I'll play Urza's Rage targeting myself....Kill everyone!). 

Figure of Destiny   {wr}
Creature - Kithkin   Rare
{rw}: Figure of Destiny becomes a 2/2 Kithkin Spirit.
{rw}{rw}{rw}: If Figure of Destiny is a Spirit, it becomes a 4/4 Kithkin Spirit Warrior.
{rw}{rw}{rw}{rw}{rw}{rw}: If Figure of Destiny is a Warrior, it becomes an 8/8 Kithkin Spirit Warrior Avatar with flying and first strike.
#139/180   1/1

Not sure if this an 8/8 flying, first strike creature is worthy enough for Type 4, but this card sure if freaking cool. 

[Metamind]

So far this set is on the weak side. We have a few great playables and a few borderline playables, but the playables we see are nothing we haven't seen before.

Unmake is the best card here so far. Pretty much everyone plays Swords to Plowshares, Unmake is the same card without the drawback. A staple for years to come.

Creakwood Ghoul is a bigger Withered Wretch that nets you life every time a card is put into a graveyard. Late game it can gain you more than most lifegain spells. Another staple.

Thunderblust is great IMO. It has 7 power and haste, enough power to kill players the turn it comes into play. Usually, if he doesn't do his job he'll get back into play via persist. Haste is an underrated ability in multiplayer IMO. It wil take time for this card to seep in, but it's playable.

Spitmare    R/W R/W
Creature - Elemental   U
Whenever Spitemare is dealt damage, Spitemare deals that much damage to target creature or player.

I like it a lot. It has the same killer comboes as stuffy doll and Glarecaster. But unlike stuffy, it can cannon as many players as you want it to. The big problem with it is that he dies easily, really easily. We will see about this one.

Archon of Justice   3ww
Creature - Archon   Rare
Flying
When Archon of Justice is put into a graveyard from play, remove target permanent from the game.
4/4

It has tiny body and his ability is OK but not as abusable as other fatties abilities, like Woodfal Primus or Angel of Despair. No for me.

Dream Fracture   
Instant  U
Counter target spell. It's controller draws a card.
Draw a card.

I know some groups like to play with Arcane Denial as it's a "Political Counter". You may like this one too.

Phyrric Revival    B/W B/W B/W
Sorcery   R
Each player returns each creature card in his or her graveyard to play with a -1/-1 counter on it.

Sorcery speed kills it 

Doomgape    G/B G/B G/B
Creature - Elemental   R
Trample
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a creature. You gain life equal to that creature's toughness.
10/10

It's bigger than most fatties, and the life gain has potential, but still his drawback is too much to pay usually.

Eventide is really lacking comperatively thus far.

[Mr. Type 4]

Yeah, so far Eventide is pretty weak.  The best card I've seen is the new Creakwood Ghoul, which is very good.  I will probably run the Dream Fracture, but it's nothing to write home about. 

Unmake - auto include, thanks for this one, Wizards.  Cool looking card, too.

I dismissed Archon of Justice at first, but it does RFG the card, not just destroy it.  Might be worth a second look.

Spitemare - hard to say... it's a killer combo card, but a 3/3 with no evasion and no protective ability.  This guy's no glarecaster for sure.  I need to think about him a little more.

The rest of it is not very good.  How does hate flayer effectively swing for 10? Wicker-borough elder is ok, at least you can use the ability right away. 

[diopter]

How does hate flayer effectively swing for 10? Wicker-borough elder is ok, at least you can use the ability right away. 

I looked it up and it's actually an untap ability. Still meh though.

[Mr. Type 4]

If hateflayer is an untap, that makes it a lot better.  Still not sure if it makes the cut, but it combos with tappers much like the Knacksaw Clique from the last set.  Hateflayer may actully be a better card without having a combo. 

[Mr. Type 4]

Dominus of Will   (u/r)(u/r)(u/r)(u/r)(u/r)
Creature - Spirit Avatar 
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, untap and gain control of target permanent until end of turn.
It gains haste until end of turn.
  4/4

This is pretty decent, a better Bringer of the Red Dawn.  It has to survive around the table, but at least it can take anything.  Bringer of the Red Dawn is notorious for only taking a weak creature because other ones are often protected by abilities.  Other perms don't have the same level of removal protection that creatures do.

[darkmindtone]

I like Dream Fracture a lot honestly.  I don't play Arcane Denial or Vex, but this is more in line with Remand than either of those. 

Other than that, I haven't seen anything recent besides the already mentioned RU Avatar that really catches my interest for Type 4. 

[Public Service]

So far I've got the following noted down to find for my stack:

Figure of Destiny    {wr}
Creature - Kithkin   Rare
{rw}: Figure of Destiny becomes a 2/2 Kithkin Spirit.
{rw}{rw}{rw}: If Figure of Destiny is a Spirit, it becomes a 4/4 Kithkin Spirit Warrior.
{rw}{rw}{rw}{rw}{rw}{rw}: If Figure of Destiny is a Warrior, it becomes an 8/8 Kithkin Spirit Warrior Avatar with flying and first strike.
1/1

And 8/8 flying first strike is just about on the borderline of being playable in type 4, but this will go in my stack for the coolness factor and ease of getting a foil version (it's the release promo). I guess also you can limit the damage from agonising demise

Creakwood Ghoul   4b
Creature- Plant Zombie   Uncommon
{bg}{bg}:Remove target card in a graveyard from the game.You gain 1 life
3/3

Currently I have Night Soil and Cremate as my only graveyard removers. This will be a third I think.

Unmake   {wb}{wb}{wb}
Instant   Common
Remove target creature from the game.

I just removed Spin into Myth from my stack (only have a limited number of sleeves (about 250), so have to remove a card when I add one). Unmake is only marginally better but it's quite cool so I think I'll add it.

Spirit of the Hearth   4ww
Creature - Cat Spirit   Rare
Flying
You can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.
4/5

Not amazing but a decent body on a true believer.

Dominus of Fealty     {ur}{ur}{ur}{ur}{ur}
Creature - Spirit Avatar   Rare
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may gain control of target permanent until end of turn. If you do, untap it and it gains haste until end of turn.
4/4

Permenant over creature makes it so much better than red bringer. A very nice addition.

Apparently there's a rumoured creature with persist that sacs to counter a spell. That would definitely be nice.

[Harlequin]

Mindwrack Liege   {tons}
Creature - Horror 
Other blue creatures you control get +1/+1.
Other red creatures you control get +1/+1.
{4 mana}: You may put a red or blue creature card from your hand into play.
4/4

Nice addition

[Mr. Type 4]

This is pretty decent:

Nucklavee   4 {r/u}{r/u}
 
Creature - Beast
 
When Nucklavee comes into play, you may return target red sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.
When Nucklavee comes into play, you may return target blue instant card from your graveyard to your hand.
 
Illus. Trevor Hairsaine
 #110/180
 4/4
 
4/4 creature that returns a blue instant seems fine. Red sorceries are pretty limited, but could happen. 

Mindwrack Liege is pretty fair as far as cards like it are concerned.  I constantly find myself with Sneak Attack or Illusionary Mask in play and have no good creatures in hand.  Liege will be even more limited, but that limitation might make it more desireable in some stacks.  It's also going to good in larger stacks where more marginal cards can get in.

[Metamind]

If hateflayer is an untap, that makes it a lot better.  Still not sure if it makes the cut, but it combos with tappers much like the Knacksaw Clique from the last set.  Hateflayer may actually be a better card without having a combo.

Actually I think I'll do just that, Hateflayer > Knacksaw Clique 

Dominus of Will   (u/r)(u/r)(u/r)(u/r)(u/r)
Creature - Spirit Avatar
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, untap and gain control of target permanent until end of turn.
It gains haste until end of turn.
  4/4

This is pretty decent, a better Bringer of the Red Dawn.  It has to survive around the table, but at least it can take anything.  Bringer of the Red Dawn is notorious for only taking a weak creature because other ones are often protected by abilities.  Other perms don't have the same level of removal protection that creatures do.

It's a lot more than pretty decent. Not a 1st pick but it will win its games.

I like Dream Fracture a lot honestly.  I don't play Arcane Denial or Vex, but this is more in line with Remand than either of those.

You are right, I'll play it.

@ Public Service: You don't have enough cards for an 8- man draft. How do you play? You should enlarge your stack, if only for that and the added variance.
Spin Into Myth and Unmake both easily make the cut at larger stacks.

Currently I have Night Soil and Cremate as my only graveyard removers. This will be a third I think.

That's problematic as they are amongst the worst graveyard haters playable. It means one or two things: a) You don't have broken graveyard effects so you don't need the hate too much; or b) graveyard effects are really overpowered. I run Withered Wretch, Dimir Doppelganger, Reito Lantern, Offalsnout (evoke = freebie), Temporal Cascade, Sway of the Starts, Decree of Annihilation, Morningtide and Faerie Macabre. Graveyard removal is good not only for keeping the graveyard under control, it simplifies the game state.

Not amazing but a decent body on a true believer.

4/5 is not decent by any means, even if it has flying.

Mindwrack Liege   {tons}
Creature - Horror
Other blue creatures you control get +1/+1.
Other red creatures you control get +1/+1.
{4 mana}: You may put a red or blue creature card from your hand into play.
4/4

Nice addition

The red or blue requirement pretty much kills it 

Nucklavee    r/u r/u
Creature - Beast
When Nucklavee comes into play, you may return target red sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.
When Nucklavee comes into play, you may return target blue instant card from your graveyard to your hand.
4/4

That's another card with great potential and killer color restrictions.

[Public Service]

This is the guy:

GLEN ELENDRA ARCHMAGE 3U (R)
Creature - Faerie Wizard
Flying
U, Sacrifice GEA: Counter target noncreature spell.
Persist
2/2

[Mr. Type 4]

Glen Endra Archmage - finally something good!  it even has flying, very nice.

Currently I have Night Soil and Cremate as my only graveyard removers. This will be a third I think.

That's problematic as they are amongst the worst graveyard haters playable. It means one or two things: a) You don't have broken graveyard effects so you don't need the hate too much; or b) graveyard effects are really overpowered. I run Withered Wretch, Dimir Doppelganger, Reito Lantern, Offalsnout (evoke = freebie), Temporal Cascade, Sway of the Starts, Decree of Annihilation, Morningtide and Faerie Macabre. Graveyard removal is good not only for keeping the graveyard under control, it simplifies the game state.

I agree wholeheartedly with Metamind here, night soil and creamate are way lesser to Withered Wretch (awesome) and faerie Macabre (also awesome).  Dimir Doppleganger can hardly be considered GY Removal, as it's an effect that contributes to the problem more than it helps BUT does get stuff like Genesis/Glory out of there. 

[Public Service]

@Metamind:

@ Public Service: You don't have enough cards for an 8- man draft. How do you play?

By not doing an 8-man draft? IMHO eight is too big for playung the game out, it just takes too long. 4-5 people is better. We only play before a normal booster draft, so not a whole lot of time available.

You should enlarge your stack

Ooooh, sailor.

That's problematic as they are amongst the worst graveyard haters playable.

Ouch! I tried and don't like withered wretch, he dies to easily in wraths. Faerie Macabre is a good suggestion though. Added to this new card and that should be enough. We do play with genesis, glory, corpse dance etc.

4/5 is not decent by any means, even if it has flying.

I still think he's worth trying. He's mainly for the effect, but 4 damage is still 1/5 of a starting life total.

[Metamind]

By not doing an 8-man draft? IMHO eight is too big for playung the game out, it just takes too long. 4-5 people is better. We only play before a normal booster draft, so not a whole lot of time available.

Actually, we winston draft our stack after our normal booster drafts, as they start early. But normal booster drafts here attract a lot more than 8 people and most of them want to play. If you're playing with 5 drafters max, 250 cards give you enough to draft with 10% variance, and that's ok but a bit low IMO.

Ouch! I tried and don't like withered wretch, he dies to easily in wraths. Faerie Macabre is a good suggestion though. Added to this new card and that should be enough. We do play with genesis, glory, corpse dance etc.

I've seen far worse cards getting played. Really those cards are playable, but not at a stack that small. For comparison, my stack is almost 500 cards and I took them out for being underpowered. In a small stack you can find many better alternatives. The bad thing about Night Soil is that it removes only creatures, and cremate is generally lacking enough that it's cycled as soon as possible. You don't have a good graveyard hoser that can remove several cards from different graveyard at once. Reito Lantern is a stickless Wretch if that's your concern*, and Dimir Doppelganger is a bomb. Are your graveyard cards under control?

I still think he's worth trying. He's mainly for the effect, but 4 damage is still 1/5 of a starting life total.

If you think it has potential test it. As you mentioned earlier creatures die to wraths easily and if you play it for the effect it is better just to play Ivory Mask. 1/5 of a starting total requires you to hit someone 5 times just to kill it. That more time than you can affford (and if you can afford it, you'll with anything). I do think that "weaker" creatures hit more and thereby cause more general damage, but those creatures should come with another immediate effect that matters.

Glen Elendra Archmage - Sweet!

* You don't care too much if someone uses his wrath to kill a 2/2 body - the damage has already been done. The good part about being a creature is that the CIP abilities are much more abuseable, and it's the same case here. Anyways, Creakwood Ghoul is better.

[Mr. Type 4]

yeah, Withered Wretch gets in there, blows up graveyards and is done. 

I've been trying to get a foil Stonecloaker for a while now.  That may actually be one of the best graveyard hosers, but I haven't tried it yet.  In theory a "buyback" graveyard removal spell that can also rescue your creatures and is a 3/2 flyer should be pretty amazing. 

[Metamind]

I've been trying to get a foil Stonecloaker for a while now.  That may actually be one of the best graveyard hosers, but I haven't tried it yet.  In theory a "buyback" graveyard removal spell that can also rescue your creatures and is a 3/2 flyer should be pretty amazing.

I've had it for months now (foil  ). It's a good card, it also abuses 187 creatures sometimes, triggers things etc. It is not much better than Withered Wretch though since you can't really remove all the threats at an 8-man table, and you eat up your SFTs. When the players die, though, it gets a lot better up to the point you completely rule the graves. Wretch is always solid, and I prefer consistency. See, I have great hopes for the Ghoul.

[Mr. Type 4]

Ok, so Stonecloaker would not be the best graveyard hoser, but may be one of the best all-around cards that happens to be a graveyard hoser. 

Withered Wrtech is highly recommended if you run any graveyard stuff.  Imagine it's this "Sorcery - remove X target cards in graveyards from the game" and then inamge that it's way better than that.  Creakwood Ghould should be awesome and will easily take the place of one of the weaker GY removal cards.

[darkmindtone]

Now that the set is spoiled, my initial list of additions from the new set is:

Archon of Justice
Hallowed Burial (maybe)
Dream Fracture
Glen Elendra Archmage
Creakwood Ghoul
Hateflayer (maybe)
Thunderblust (maybe)
Wicker-Bough Elder
Unmake
Dominus of Fealty
Figure of Destiny (maybe)

[Metamind]

My addition, from the strongest to the weakest (estimations), are:

Glen Elendra Archmage
Unmake
Dominous of Fealty
Creakwood Ghoul
Dream Fracture
Nucklavee
Thunderblust
Hateflayer
Wicker- Bough Elder
Spitmare

Sealing the Lorwyn megablock, Eventide is still a bit lower on playables than the average small set, but it still adds solid cards for most categories.

[Mr. Type 4]

I think I'm going to go kinda conservative here and just add a couple guys

Glen Elendra Archmage (obviously)
Creakwood Ghoul
Unmake
Dominums of Fealty
Dream Fracture

and I'll try out these two to see if they're worth it:
Nucklavee
Spitemare

BTW - Glen Elendra Archmage is a sick combo with mistmeadow witch

[Metamind]

I think I'm going to go kinda conservative here and just add a couple guys

Your stack is smaller

[Mr. Type 4]

Yeah, smaller stacks have higher standards, obviously.  I was surprised in the other thread (do you guys play these cards) as to how many people said they had a 200-300 card stack.  I thought most people ran big ones, and I was one of the few small stacks.

My boy Menendian called me and said he was going to review the set for T4, presumably because Eventide is soooo bad for Vintage.  Of course it'll be SCG premium so most people probably won't be able to read it, lol.

We got some additions here but nothing mind-blowing.  It's kinda sad when the best card is just a glorified "flip-wizard."  The second best is an Uber Withered Wretch, 3rd a slightly improved STP.  Then you have a better Bringer of the Red Dawn and a debateable counterspell.  nothing is new! oh, well.  Hopefully the next set will be cooler.

[VikingMetal4L]

I think I'm going to go kinda conservative here and just add a couple guys

Glen Elendra Archmage (obviously)
Creakwood Ghoul
Unmake
Dominums of Fealty
Dream Fracture

and I'll try out these two to see if they're worth it:
Nucklavee
Spitemare

BTW - Glen Elendra Archmage is a sick combo with mistmeadow witch

I'll agree with your conservativism.  The only Eventide cards that make my stack for sure are the Archmage, Ghoul, Unmake, and Dream Fracture.  I hadn't seriously considered Dominus of Fealty as I don't play with Red Bringer, but maybe it is worth trying out.  On the other hand Figure of Destiny is silly enough that I might play it.  According to Mike Flores, it could be the Next Big Two Drop (ha!), so trade in your Tarmogoyfs now boys.

If you're seriously considering Spitemare as Glarecaster #2, I suggest you turn your attention to Mirrorwood Treefolk instead.  I don't play it, as one Glarecaster is enough for me.  On the other hand, I really want to see someone draw off Rootgrapple for once (we play Woodfall Primus and Crib Swap, but it just hasn't come up yet).

One more thing.  Arcane Denial and Dream Fracture are not just political counters.  In a multiplayer game, if everyone is in a roughly equal position, you have to divide any advantage one of your opponents gets by the total number of opponents.  Explicitly, if there are a large number of players, Dream Fracture is almost Dismiss, which is Really Good.  I pick Arcane Denial higher than vanilla Counterspell if there are at least 5 players, and Dream Fracture, is of course, even better.  Vex is purely political, and it will not go into my stack, as it is strictly worse than Counterspell.

Q

[Metamind]

My boy Menendian called me and said he was going to review the set for T4, presumably because Eventide is soooo bad for Vintage.  Of course it'll be SCG premium so most people probably won't be able to read it, lol.

That's a dry set for all formats, apparently. It's gonna be a weak review - you don't have enough cards to discuss about. I remind you many players would love more strategic content.

One more thing.  Arcane Denial and Dream Fracture are not just political counters.  In a multiplayer game, if everyone is in a roughly equal position, you have to divide any advantage one of your opponents gets by the total number of opponents.  Explicitly, if there are a large number of players, Dream Fracture is almost Dismiss, which is Really Good.  I pick Arcane Denial higher than vanilla Counterspell if there are at least 5 players, and Dream Fracture, is of course, even better.  Vex is purely political, and it will not go into my stack, as it is strictly worse than Counterspell.

Following your logic, Arcane Denial is going to get your opponent two cards, divided by 4 (the number of opponents), into half a card for the table. You, on the other hand, draw a card, divided by 4 into 0.25 card advantage against the table. Still, you lose, or rather, give twice as much card advantage as you can get. Your assumption that cards you draw are worth more than cards your opponents draw by a rate greater than 2:1 to justify Arcane Denial, which is wrong. Dismiss will replace itself (no card advantage) and counter them a spell (0.25 card advantage) so it's not that good in a 5 player game itself. You need to do one of the following:

a) Draw 5 cards with something so you got - a replace (no CA) and four cards divided by 4 = 1 CA against the table or 1 CA per player.

b) Destroy 4 different permanents controlled by four different opponents with one card that replaces itself, so you got a CA of 1 per opponent.
c) Counter 4 different spells controlled by four different players with a card that replaces itself OR counter 8 different spells, each opponent controlling exactly two of them so you lost a card (each opponent gains +0.25 CA cause of it, to be precise), countered 8 spells divided by four to 2 CA (that's 0.5 for each opponent), to a total +1 CA against the table (+1 CA per player). Obviously, that's not gonna happen.

I disagree with your logic. You shouldn't try to beat the table: It start with 4 times as much life, gets a +3 card advantage on you just by the normal draw steps, 4 times as many SFTS, 4 times as many Main Phases and attacks. You don't break even with him. By your logic, every card you draw is +1 C.A. and every card your opponent draws is equal to +0.25 C.A, which obviously puts a specific player at superiority above all his opponents...
Luckily, this is never the case. The four different players are each individual players, which has an equal point of winning at the starting point, who don't share the same win condition or interests. They are very likely opposing each other. In reality, whenever there is a counterwar (for simplicity let's just say those are plain Counterspells) each player who don't join the stack just earns C.A. ! So getting opponents to spend spells on each other, as long as they don't hurt you, is netting you a "Free" card advantage.

Arcane Denial and Vex ARE purely political, and they are strictly worse than regular counters, in the same way that Vex is. It doesn't mean it will achieve less in actual games, but it is purely political. It just means politics work.
I have never seen anyone pick it over a vanilla counterspell, ever.

Dream fracture will always break even on card advantage, so it seems as good as a Cancel.

[VikingMetal4L]

Following your logic, Arcane Denial is going to get your opponent two cards, divided by 4 (the number of opponents), into half a card for the table. You, on the other hand, draw a card, divided by 4 into 0.25 card advantage against the table. Still, you lose, or rather, give twice as much card advantage as you can get. Your assumption that cards you draw are worth more than cards your opponents draw by a rate greater than 2:1 to justify Arcane Denial, which is wrong. Dismiss will replace itself (no card advantage) and counter them a spell (0.25 card advantage) so it's not that good in a 5 player game itself. You need to do one of the following:

...

I disagree with your logic. You shouldn't try to beat the table: It start with 4 times as much life, gets a +3 card advantage on you just by the normal draw steps, 4 times as many SFTS, 4 times as many Main Phases and attacks. You don't break even with him. By your logic, every card you draw is +1 C.A. and every card your opponent draws is equal to +0.25 C.A, which obviously puts a specific player at superiority above all his opponents...
Luckily, this is never the case. The four different players are each individual players, which has an equal point of winning at the starting point, who don't share the same win condition or interests. They are very likely opposing each other. In reality, whenever there is a counterwar (for simplicity let's just say those are plain Counterspells) each player who don't join the stack just earns C.A. ! So getting opponents to spend spells on each other, as long as they don't hurt you, is netting you a "Free" card advantage.

Well, I disagree.  The two cards an opponent draws off my Arcane Denial are probably not coming right back at me.  Barring "vengeance," they are just as likely to go towards hurting one of the other three players.  You can count this as free card advantage when it happens, but I'll go ahead and count it right away, at the beginning of the next turn's upkeep.

I don't mean to say that you should cast AD to try to get an advantage on the table.  You don't play counterspells to win; you play them to not lose.  Sometimes you just have to counter a spell that hurts you more than anyone else.  When you cast AD, it replaces itself in your hand, so you just barely fall behind relative to the average opponent at the table (by .25 cards in our 5-player example).  This is a good price to pay if you would have been decimated by said spell!  When you cast Counterspell, both you and one opponent lose a card, so your opponents on average have lost .25 cards, and you have lost 1 card.  This means you lose .75 cards relative to the average opponent.  (Of course this is still much better than getting decimated.)

So at the end of the day, AD lets you stop a spell when you absolutely must, yet it still feels like you weren't even involved in the counterwar.  Dream Fracture models this concept perfectly, while Arcane Denial is a good approximation for large games.  Dismiss is just slightly better than Dream Fracture, which I still contend is Really Good.

What it comes down to is that I am terrified of falling significantly behind my opponents, because I become easy prey in their eyes and they pound me to simplify the game state.  I am curious how you can measure your position in the game, *except* relative to your opponents.  Interested to hear your thoughts,

Q

[Mr. Type 4]

there's a lot of good points here, and it touches into some intangible points of the Type 4 strategy.

For starters, Card Advantage is one of the least important types of advantage in Type 4.  I think Metamind illustrates that point pretty well without actually saying it.  This is a great point, here:

You shouldn't try to beat the table: It start with 4 times as much life, gets a +3 card advantage on you just by the normal draw steps, 4 times as many SFTS, 4 times as many Main Phases and attacks. You don't break even with him.

So what is good about Arcane Denial? If you're playing a combo deck, being able to draw further into your stack is a pretty useful bonus.  But I think it goes beyond that.  In Type 4 there are situations where someone plays a card that could be dangerous to you, but actually could be equally dangerous to other players at the table.  You will weigh the the threat level of this card by determining if you have the ability to stop it, should it be used against you.  You will also try to figure out how likely it is that it will be used against you.  If this player is your enemy, or you don't have ways of dealing with the threat, then this card presents a real danger, and needs countered.  converserly, if youhave a permanent on the board that would prevent you from being attacked or whatever, then this card could actually help you by creating threats to the other players.  Something like Arcane enial is perfect to use in the situation where the card being playd is threating to you, but not for obvious reasons.  Often when someone counters a card that I don't think is very threatening, I take it pretty personally and that person basically is my enemy for the rest of the game.  Arcane Denial really cushions the blow by giving me 2 cards. 

The other situation is that someone plays a card that is a direct threat to you.  These are the cards that are most important to counter.  You won't make enemies by countering these cards because the person casting is already your enemy.  You need to conserve counterspells for this type of situation.

[Metamind]

Sorry I haven't posted here earlier, I was a bit busy lately.

@ VikingMetal4L:

I actually agree with you, because of this sentence:

The two cards an opponent draws off my Arcane Denial are probably not coming right back at me.  Barring "vengeance," they are just as likely to go towards hurting one of the other three players.

So that's using politics for your advantage at the table. Including cards for their political capabilities is common, and they are usually worse or s even strictly so to not pose a threat to the other opponents so they they will devote their resources to other opponents and you gained the advantage.

Second, your freshly drawn card is actually likely not to be used against that opponent. If we assume that card isn't equally likely to hit each opponent, thats 0.25 cards against that opponent equal to his 0.5 cards against you. That's card disadvantage, anyway you look at it.

What I dislike about AD is that: At a counter it doesn't work properly, only delaying your loss (unless you have the political advantage, in that case a Cancel woud be better), exactly like Vex. At a political card it doesn't work as the cards drawn are more likely to be used against you because you've just foiled their plans (and no, it doesn't really ever makes his position better because players are smarter than that. He might THINK that way however, it just never happens. the players are too suspicious for that).

On the bottom line, I don't see why Vex and AD are different.

Dismiss is just slightly better than Dream Fracture, which I still contend is Really Good.

I just pictured it to show you that in your above explanation, Dismiss isn't that good. I thought it was obvious i disagree with that. Anyway, yes I think being political is better than any card quality but not card advantage on large qualities - it can outnumber you. That why I like my political cards to be down in quality, not card advantage.

What it comes down to is that I am terrified of falling significantly behind my opponents, because I become easy prey in their eyes and they pound me to simplify the game state.  I am curious how you can measure your position in the game, *except* relative to your opponents.

You should measure your board position relative to each opponent in each opponent's eyes. If you are a high threat, you'll die faster, and vice versa. The actual board position is the basis for all of the politics done, but it's not the most relevant factor to success.

For starters, Card Advantage is one of the least important types of advantage in Type 4.  I think Metamind illustrates that point pretty well without actually saying it.

Couldn't agree more, thanks on that clarification.

Often when someone counters a card that I don't think is very threatening, I take it pretty personally and that person basically is my enemy for the rest of the game.  Arcane Denial really cushions the blow by giving me 2 cards.

This is true in any situation IMO. I agree it cushions the blow but not the need to deliver the massage, so you've basically committed suicide.

The other situation is that someone plays a card that is a direct threat to you.  These are the cards that are most important to counter.  You won't make enemies by countering these cards because the person casting is already your enemy.  You need to conserve counterspells for this type of situation.

In that situation youre still strengthening your enemy, so a good and old Counterspell deals with the problem better. And there is no difference between AD and Vex.

[Mr. Type 4]

In that situation youre still strengthening your enemy, so a good and old Counterspell deals with the problem better. And there is no difference between AD and Vex.

Yeah, i think I got a little bit derailed in that dissertation.  This was the point I was trying to make - when people are pointing the gun in your face, you don't want to be giving them cards, you want to be hitting with your "king dick" counterspells like Spelljack. 

[Metamind]

I thought you are playing with AD