[Type 4] Do you play with these cards?

[Public Service]

Just surveying opinions on the following cards which we feel are on the borderline of being too powerful. Note: we play with no firebreathers, no glarecaster and no ACC rule.

Mist Dragon - we took this out once we realised that whoever cast it won the game
Door to Nothingness - this is still in our stack since it is amusing and has only been sucessfully activated once
Djinn Illuminatus - this has never been in our stack - has anyone played with it?
Blast from the Past - this got taken out for sheer annoyingness (and power level)
Tower of Fortunes - this is insanely good but is still in the stack
Homura - He left the stack because of our no-firebreathers rule, but I'm considering re-adding him
Corus of the Conclave - May get added for similiar reasons.
Greater Morphling - He was in for a long time with the bushido crossed out but eventually 18 points of hasty shadow damage proved too good.
Richard Garfield - We actually allow people to name any card with him. It has led to ending the game, but it is very entertaining so he stays.

Also after playing for a while, we decided to take out cards that slowed the game down. So many tutors got ommitted (gifts ungiven, intuition, survival of the fittest), keeping just a few like Tooth and Nail. We just got too bored of waiting for people to choose their fourth card for gifts ungiven. Whispers of the Muse, Urza's Rage and Sway of the Stars got taken out too for annoyingness reasons.

[darkmindtone]

We don't play with firebreathers or ACC around here either.  Here on some quick thoughts regarding cards you mentioned:

-Glarecaster - We play him as he's pretty fair most of the time.  He dies to all non-damage based removal, and very rarely is actually the basis for why someone won. 

-Mist Dragon - We also play him as while he's near impossible to kill, he makes the person who controls him a target, is counterable, and honestly is only a 4/4 flyer.  This means that although he's very hard to deal with, he can't get past a 5/5+ flyer on the other side, nor a Masticore effect on board (though it won't kill him, it will effectively neuter him). 

-Door - I played with this card in the stack for a few years, but eventually came to the conclusion that it's no fun being the guy on the receiving end of this.  Obviously it's very vulnerable to removal when it's tapped, but requiring the inclusion of Stifle effects just for this card doesn't seem like a fair trade off.  Every one of those effects other than Trickbind just felt weak in comparison to the other cards in the stack, so cutting those and this card just made sense. 

-Djinn - Never played it, never intend to.  Seems absurd

-Blast From the Past - Lasted exactly one night.  Two damage+draw a card+make a token with buyback is beyond insane.  You can argue that it can be countered like most cards, but I don't honestly see the point including cards like this and Spell Burst as they're ridiculous and not fun for anyone else.  Being instants also makes them much harder to counter. 

-Tower of Fortunes - Had it in for a few months, but it was too powerful and thus removed. 

-Homura - Had it in for a few months, wasn't a fan, was removed. 

-Chorus of the Conclave - Never tried it, and likely never will

-Greater Morphling - We had him in for a bit before we realized he went infinite with another dude on board, so he was removed immediately.  We don't errata, and even without it he's still the 18 power hasted attacker that's very difficult to remove. 

-Richard Garfield - Was never very impressive without errata.  Was removed for lack of power. 

-Tutors - I have Gifts and Tooth still in as they're solid and you just need to give the person searching a time limit (30 seconds to 1 minute).  I don't run Intuition anymore as it's strictly worse than Gifts 99% of the time in this format, and Survival wasn't actually that amazing for me (and the aforementioned long search times most applied to this card). 

-Random cards - Whispers of the Muse has been fair for us (much better than Blast from the Past in a balanced stack).  Urza's Rage feels like a more fair (and fun) Door to Nothingness.  Sway never really did much for anybody around here and got cut over time (same thing for Once More with Feeling). 

[ShoryuuReppaX]

Mist Dragon: Took it out. Way too weak. I've been culling the cardlists for years and now I have a fairly good selection of creatures.

Glarecaster: Took it out. Way to strong. Sounds weird, huh? It's because my stack runs a relatively low number of removal. I want my guests to really conserve their spells instead of blasting everything they see.

Door: Quite powerful when its down to 1v1, but in larger games, the chance of backfiring is just too great. There's always the errant Word of Seizing, Willbender, Time Stop, Voidslime, Voidmage Husher, and even Angel's Grace floating around. I include it since it's hilarious to see people trying to protect it. Same with Phage, the Untouchable.

Djinn: Relatively to other stacks I've seen posted, mine has a very low power level. I never even considered Djinn, esp. since I run a large number of burn.

Blast from the Past: Tried it for 1 game, took it out forever. Whispers of the Muse on crack. If you can't counter it, it will usually kill someone in 1 or 2 rounds. (I usually play 5-8 player).

Tower of Fortunes: I've been rather hard on combo cards, leaving pretty much only Rube Goldberg style combos. Therefore, the power of Tower is lessened. A strong card most definitely, but fine in my stack.

Homura: Never considered it, never will. To me, firebreathing kills the fun of T4, unless tacked on an otherwise hilarious creature (i.e. Dragon Tyrant, which we errata to not have firebreathing)

Chorus: See Homura.

Greater Morphling: I tried Morphling. Not too fond of it, since it was too small to compete and ended up either as a infinite blocker, which was fine, or infinite life with Miren, the Moaning Well. Not so fine. I suppose G.M. will have a similar effect, except it beats really well. If I can errata it to (a) not instant kill with bushido stacking, and (b) not go infinite with Miren, I might as well include it.

Richard Garfield: Gives too much advantage to experienced players, and massively delays turns. I have a lot of fairly experienced players playing as well, so I would rather not antagonize them.

Tutors: I actually run quite a few. Mystical Teachings, Tooth and Nail, Chord of Calling, Riptide Shapeshifter, Citanul Flute, and maybe one or 2 I forgot. Never found them too broken, since as I said before, the combos in my stack are very inefficient.

Whipser of the Muse: When I did run it, it was really great, but not utterly broken. I still removed it, since the 1 mana cost really turned me off. I found Pulse of the Grid an interesting replacement.

Sway of the Stars: Its board removal + burn. Great card, except leaves you a bit vulnerable. Great in team games as a gigantic burn.

[psly4mne]

Glarecaster: We play it. It's pretty good - we have enough tutors that glasticore is a real threat
Mist Dragon: We play it, it's a good blocker, but not a big threat
Door: We don't play it, it feels too random to us
Djinn: We wouldn't touch it, it leads to too many instant wins
Blast: We tried it out, it's just too strong
Tower of Fortunes: We play it. It's good, but you're lucky if you can activate it twice
Fiirebreathers: We play Pyric Salamander. Anything else is too good
Richard Garfield: We haven't tried it. I think we'll give it a shot

We have a lot of tutors - All the ones ShoryuuReppaX mentioned, plus Survival, Gifts, Vampiric, Demonic, Diabolic Tutors, Planar Portal, Lamp, Grozoth, Collusion, Protean Hulk, Dragonstorm (ftw!), a few transmuters, and more that i'm forgetting
We have Sway of the Stars. It makes games end fast, but it's a damn good reset.

[oneofchaos]

My stack tends to veer towards the more broken spectrum, with walking archive and mischievous quanar.  However, bombs = a need for good answers, and I feel I have them.

[Mr. Type 4]

We play ACC rule = yes, firebreathers = no, Glarecaster = yes.


Mist Dragon - The person who plays this wins the game?!?! really? This guy is solid but is not a big deal in today's world with Split-Second cards.

Glarecaster - I'm a big fan of this guy.  He definitly ups the intensity of the game sometimes.

Door to Nothingness - is really not very good.  We play it, but an artifact that needs to get around the board before it can be used is pretty hard to make work.  Most people that get doored deserve it. 

Djinn - I'd need errata to allow this guy, and I just don't feel like adding anymore errated cards.  Not in my stack.

Tower of Fortunes - pretty broken, but hard to resolve.  it's pretty obvious that this thing should get countered, so someone usually takes care of it. 

Blast from the Past - Is really powerful.  We play it, but it usually gets countered early if you don't use it conservatively.

Firebreathers - not really into it.  A lot of them probably aren't unfair comparitive to other things I do allow, but we just don't like them.  I have Dark Depths and Greater Morphling and I figure that's enough.

Richard Garfield - I find this to just be too complicated. 

Greater Morphling - is insane.  we limit it to 1 bushido/1 rampage per turn, but this guy is a serious monster. 

Tutors - we like tutors for the most part.

Any other cards you guys want to talk about?  How about Spellburst - does anyone play with that?

[Harlequin]

No Door.  Yes to everything else (I think).

The only remaing true firebreather in our stack is Dragon Welp (hes kinda our door to nothingness).

We also have Wicked Acuba, and both Balduvian Hydra and Rock Hydra. 

We also have basically every damage reversal effect ever printed... so making a 10,000 Hydra could just as easily kill your target, as have them gain 10,000 life, or even worse kill you.


ACC - No, However we have a rule that says if you didn't use any of your free mana to cast the spell it doesn't count as your spell for turn.  So Force of Will, Misdirrection, Pyrokensis can be 'cast' as your spell for turn, or you can pitch a card to spend no mana and thus it will not count as a SFT.  This also applys to 'cheap' spells.   For example you can tap Karakas to Swords to Plow something and have it not count as your spell; or tap Stalking Stones to play a Skull Clamp. 

Quanar/Mirror Sheen (from eventide) - We have tons of burn/damage spells in the stack so Quanar is not included ... however, I've been thinking about errating both cards so you can only copy spells you don't control (or that your team doesn't control).  This puts an effective temp-ban on players using powerful non-creature spells.  Which is really not that broken.  It could also could add some more game pollitics like "if I Magma Jet you ... Will you Kill Jer for me?" 

[Metamind]

Mist Dragon - we took this out once we realized that whoever cast it won the game

Split second kills it; Azorius Guildmage kills it, Mindslaver... It has enough answers in most stacks. When I just started my stack it was very potent, now days it's just solid.

Tower of Fortunes - this is insanely good but is still in the stack

I don't find it very powerful. It's usually a mere Tidings; destroyed the turn it hits play, just harder to resolve and draws you fire. I play with Aeon Chronicler and Mind Spring which outclass it.
Tutors: We had similar problems, so we take the tutors out when we don't have a timer.

Whispers of the Muse: Strong but there are a lot more busted cards out there, I play and enjoy it.

Sway: Great, powerful effect. It was too symmetrical however, so it got to be a freebie.

Any other cards you guys want to talk about?  How about Spellburst - does anyone play with that?

We definitely like it, but we don't have enough counters yet. When we will have enough, it'll go in for sure.

Urza's Rage: Cool, powerful and not broken.

My stack:
Glarecaster: The iconic creature of the format, I don't see a reason why would anyone exclude it from their stacks. The combo is weaker than many others, as it consists of 2 creatures.

Firebreathers: No, but I don't view them as too powerful. We just drew the line here, and I don't feel like arguing with ppl explaining them which breather made the cut and which were unfitting. I have enough of it with ACC.

ACC: Probably more ACCs than any of you.

[Mr. Type 4]

ACC - No, However we have a rule that says if you didn't use any of your free mana to cast the spell it doesn't count as your spell for turn.

We run a similar rule now.  IF you don't pay mana for it, it's not your SFT.  This really powers up cards like Spelljack, and is ultimately easier to explain to new players. 

We play suspend and evoke as freebies, too. 

This also applys to 'cheap' spells.   For example you can tap Karakas to Swords to Plow something and have it not count as your spell; or tap Stalking Stones to play a Skull Clamp. 

  Now, we don't do this, but really I never even thought of doing it this way.  Pretty interesting.

Glarecaster: Took it out. Way to strong. Sounds weird, huh? It's because my stack runs a relatively low number of removal. I want my guests to really conserve their spells instead of blasting everything they see.

These dynamics really change the way cards are handled in your stack.  There's a lot of removal in my stack so killer artifacts and creatures usually bite it pretty quickly.  Just reading these replies, I'll bet you can tell which stacks feature heavy removal and which ones are removal-light.  The avaliability of counter-magic also matters.  Neither way is right or wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what accounts for the huge difference in opinions here.

Door: Quite powerful when its down to 1v1, but in larger games, the chance of backfiring is just too great. There's always the errant Word of Seizing, Willbender, Time Stop, Voidslime, Voidmage Husher, and even Angel's Grace floating around. I include it since it's hilarious to see people trying to protect it. Same with Phage, the Untouchable.

  Phage is a big joke in my stack -it's ALWAYS picked last and is considered to be a liability. 

[Harlequin]

ACC - No, However we have a rule that says if you didn't use any of your free mana to cast the spell it doesn't count as your spell for turn.

We run a similar rule now.  IF you don't pay mana for it, it's not your SFT.  This really powers up cards like Spelljack, and is ultimately easier to explain to new players. 

We play suspend and evoke as freebies, too. 

yeah i forgot to mention that: Evoke and Madness are never spells for turn either.  Suspend and Pact effects wouldn't be spells for turn under the rule anyway (because both are spells that cost no mana when you cast the spell). 


But really, the cheap spells rule doesn't come up too frequently... which actually makes it even cooler because when it does come up it's usally really interesting.  Karakas + swords or condemn is fairly common,  I think the best was when someone cast Storm Herd and then immediately  convoked Hour of Reckoning!


Oh also we have another type of Firebreather in the deck: Slithing Shade.  I love that little guy!

[Public Service]

Split second kills it; Azorius Guildmage kills it, Mindslaver... It has enough answers in most stacks. When I just started my stack it was very potent, now days it's just solid.

Oh, err, I took it out pre-Time Spiral. Split second is a great reason to bring it back - thanks!

[Metamind]

But really, the cheap spells rule doesn't come up too frequently... which actually makes it even cooler because when it does come up it's usally really interesting.  Karakas + swords or condemn is fairly common,  I think the best was when someone cast Storm Herd and then immediately  convoked Hour of Reckoning!

We have also played with that rule until we've realized it's just not happening often enough that it is worth for new players to learn anymore.
Convoke works differently in our rules. You can tap any creature for a convoke spell. Since you have infinite mana you are playing via convoke even if you are tapping only one creature for a colorless mana, which make it better, but less cool.

[VikingMetal4L]

Hi!  Long-time lurker, first-time poster, and I have a type 4 stack!  I want to say it's at about 300 cards, with most of the powerful stuff like Teferi and Glarecaster and FoW, but nothing terribly expensive like Ancestral Recall or Mask.

We play an ACC rule similar to Harlequin's, which I think is very intuitive and adds a new dimension to type 4.  That is, if you can play a spell without using any of your free mana, it doesn't count as your SFT (no provisions are made for madness or evoke, though of course suspend and pacts are free at both ends).  As has been mentioned, FoW and MisD start looking a lot better, Spelljack goes through the roof, Temporal Aperature becomes pretty strong, and it's always cute to see something like Karakas-->Swords.  Uncontrolled Sprout Swarms just got a little bit bigger too, and I've seen Altar of Shadows power out a free Demonic Tutor more than once.

But we've extended the idea by including dedicated mana producers: Crystal Quarry, Skyshroud Elf, Dreadship Reef, and Calciform Pools.  The elf of course gives infinite R and W mana, the Quarry is pretty strong too, and the blue storage lands allow you to protect your own spells.  I don't own a Black Lotus, but maybe it would make that Dissipate look more like a FoW?  Still does not play well with Absorb/Undermine/Voidslime or counters that cost 4+.  Anyway, I'm definitely a fan of lands, because they don't just sit in your hand forever the way Tower of Fortunes can (you know, if you actually want to resolve it).  I'm not totally sure the storage lands are strong enough to stay in, but my playgroup likes them a lot, and they give the game an interesting twist.  Gemstone Array looks too strong, but I've never had the balls to try it.

So: as far as cheap-spell rules not coming up often enough, you can make them come up more often.

As for some of the controversial cards listed:

I try to avoid stuff that's too easy to go infinite with, ala Quanar, firebreathers.  Tooth and Nail is in, though I don't like how easily it says GG if you opened Glarecaster.  I don't play Door to Nothing for similar reasons.  Mindslaver is probably more brutal and certainly is the better card, but at least it's fun.  Our one exception is Pyric Salamander, which is too amusing not to play with, though a fairly low pick.  With all the defensive cards in my stack, is the salamander kills you, you probably had lost the game anyway.  It's good with STP and Greater Good, I suppose.  Harlequin's suggestion of Slithering Shade is similarly amusing, but the drawback seems somewhat worse.  I guess it more effectively dissuades attacks from creatures without evasion?

Aeon Chronicler.  Well we've got it.  It's fun for one person, but too bad it's so unanswerable.  I pick it above Teferi, Decree, Prahv, and every other card.  What do you guys think?  (Obviously the relative power of cards depends on the stack they're in; games with my stack typically end in battles of attrition rather than blowout combos.)

Mind Spring was in my stack for a day.  In one 4 person game, three players spelled out over some bomb on the first turn, the other guy flashes in Teferi EOT, counters a removal spell the next turn, casts Mind Spring on his turn for almost his whole deck (demonic tutor times seven??), flashes in memnarch after a couple of people resolve creatures, and that's that.  He sits on a hand full of counters, and the game is over in a few more minutes.  I thought it was just as much a testament to Teferi's power as to Mind Spring's, but my play group didn't want to see it again.  And luck!

Whispers of the Muse and Pulse of the Grid are yes.  Blast from the Past is no.

Nezumi Graverobber is no.  Chainer is yes.  The three life means you actually have to play well to ride him to victory.

We play lots of tutors (of the demonic and vampiric variety for instance, as well as portal and lamp and survival), and I pick them pretty high if I have Aeon Chronicler or Prahv or Decree of Silence.  Transmute is pretty sexy, but it makes drafting go slower.

Well that's it.  Mainly I just wanted to share my experience with mana producers.

Q

[psly4mne]

Welcome, to TMD, Quinn.
I'm in VikingMetal4L's group, and I really like the way he's arranged his stack. I was the lucky one who resolved Mind Spring. That game was sick.
Anyway, I agree with what he said.

[Matt]

Do people use Savage Twister in this format? I've always liked it better than a simple Wrath effect, since it's better if you have the biggest guy.

[oneofchaos]

I only dislike savage twister because of the sorcery ability.  There's an onslaught card starstorm that does exactly that without the sorcery clause.  If you play starstorm already, your just playing a weaker version of it, hence I don't include it.

[Mr. Type 4]

Now Aeon Chroncler is powerful.  I pick it very higly and have drafted a couple decks with a transmute that can find it and tutors for creature cards (like congragation at dawn) so that I can get "The Chronic" on board as early as possible.  Playing the Chronicler early definitly makes you unpopular, though. 

I have Mind Spring in my deck and I wouldn't say it's overpowered at all.  In the listed situation here, Teferi was the problem, not Mind Spring (although I can tell Quinn knows that).  I consider Teferi to be a very contraverisal card, and I have had a number of games get messed up by that guy.  He's going to make me cut Spelburst, which is pretty high on the "just too good" list. 

I agree, Nezumi Graverobber is too good (we called it Nezumi Game-robber), but I looove Chainer.  Chainer just got even better with Glen Elendra Archmage in Eventide.

I run Dark Depths in my deck and consider it to be pretty contriversial.  Does anyone else run that?

[oneofchaos]

I definatly run dark depths, a 20/20 is nothing compared to the rest of my stack.  However, it is an uncounterable 20/20

[Metamind]

But we've extended the idea by including dedicated mana producers: Crystal Quarry, Skyshroud Elf, Dreadship Reef, and Calciform Pools.  The elf of course gives infinite R and W mana, the Quarry is pretty strong too, and the blue storage lands allow you to protect your own spells.  I don't own a Black Lotus, but maybe it would make that Dissipate look more like a FoW?  Still does not play well with Absorb/Undermine/Voidslime or counters that cost 4+.  Anyway, I'm definitely a fan of lands, because they don't just sit in your hand forever the way Tower of Fortunes can (you know, if you actually want to resolve it).  I'm not totally sure the storage lands are strong enough to stay in, but my playgroup likes them a lot, and they give the game an interesting twist.  Gemstone Array looks too strong, but I've never had the balls to try it.

I've played with those rules before, until it got to the point it felt uneededly complicated, and quite overpowered too. Putting a land 1st turn effectively doubled the SFT for that player for the rest of the game. Of course I included more LD but it didn't get rid of the real bombs. Don't make my mistakes.

Whispers of the Muse and Pulse of the Grid are yes.  Blast from the Past is no.

True for me too, but for other reasons. Madness is freebie so Blast is an instant win!

Nezumi Graverobber is no.  Chainer is yes.  The three life means you actually have to play well to ride him to victory.

Agreed.

I definatly run dark depths, a 20/20 is nothing compared to the rest of my stack.  However, it is an uncounterable 20/20 Razz

It doesn't count as your spell too. I like Marit but I've never seen her win a game because she is a threat so obvious...

[Mr. Type 4]

yep, marit lange rarely wins the game, but it definitly makes people die.  poor saps with no defense cards quickly die.  I think it;s interesting that so many people on this thread seem to think Door to Nothingness is so powerful, when Dark Depths is essentially the same thing but worse.  Personally, I think Door to Nothingness is weak - like a mid to late pick at best.  It does one thing really well - kills a person that just has too much life.

[VikingMetal4L]

yep, marit lange rarely wins the game, but it definitly makes people die.  poor saps with no defense cards quickly die.  I think it;s interesting that so many people on this thread seem to think Door to Nothingness is so powerful, when Dark Depths is essentially the same thing but worse.  Personally, I think Door to Nothingness is weak - like a mid to late pick at best.  It does one thing really well - kills a person that just has too much life.

I haven't tried out Dark Depths, because that's a lot of destructive power to go around just being uncounterable and not counting as an SFT.  Swingy.  But I will admit to being intrigued.  Maybe I should try it out?

Spell Burst we do not play.  You should have to work for that kind of power, like Corpse Dance + Voidmage Prodigy, or Forbid + ridiculous card drawing/recursion, or Controvert + Pentavus.

Q

[ShoryuuReppaX]

I used to play with Dark Depths in my T4 stack. I believe I have a relatively low-power stack too. I took it out not because it was too powerful, but because it became a boring 1-trick pony. Indestructible is not a particularly powerful ability on a 20/20, since most ways to get rid of a 20/20 (at least in my stack) doesn't involve damage or destroy. Lack of trample or good evasion means it has trouble swinging through. On the other hand, Soulblast or Grab the Reins is a quick 1-turn combo. Hence, I saw her a 1-trick-pony. This may be more of a symptom of a low-power stack though, since creatures actually survive and spells actually resolve. I'm thinking of adding Tomb of Urami instead. Sure, its weaker, but my guests might get more mileage due to its lower profile.

I tried Controvert for a single day. Not a fan, my guests were horrified by how easy it was to recur it in my stack. Forbid, on the other hand, was simply boring, and although a top tier counter, it wasn't overbearingly powerful. I'm certain Spell Burst is the craziest of the 3 and I never even considered it.

[Mr. Type 4]

Dark Depths has the nasty side effect of just railroading someone who got their early cards countered.  I'm really not sure if it's fair - it's definitly right on that borderline - but it hasn't been too awful for us and it creates some interesting situations. 

Recurring Counterspells:

When Controvert is a problem, its usually from needing more graveyard control cards.  There might not be enough other graveyard abuse cards in your stack to justify have more graveyard control, though. 

I also have Spell Counter which lots of people outright hate.  It's not that bad, IMO.  I still remember a hilarious incident where my friend asked me for the oracle text on Mana Drain and then "gotcha-ed" me immediatly after I said "counter target spell".   Spell Counter gets sticky when players team up and purposely say "spell" or "counter" so that the controller can pick it up.

Forbid is really hard to abuse.  I rarely buy it back more than once or twice.

[Harlequin]

Spell Counter gets sticky when players team up and purposely say "spell" or "counter" so that the controller can pick it up.

This usually isn't a problem for us.  I don't know, maybe its our group but "teams" are extremely tenuous.  I think we get more pleasure out of screwing with eachother than actually care about winning. 
we've definatly had something like this happen...

P2: OMG That's going to me!?
P1 (with spell counter in the yard): You know.  It would be really intersting if I had a counter in hand to take care of that Spell
P2: HEY YEAH - PLEASE COUNTER IT!
P1: Got'cha
P2: Well... do you have any responses??
P1: No... why do you ask?
P2: WHAT?! you said you would counter it.
P1: No I said its interesting to me when you die when I have counters in hand.  And now the game just got interesting ^_^ - Thanks!


The moral of the story is: Winning at Type 4 is fun, but losing with a good Humilliation/Frustration/Betrayal the person who was ahead at the time.

Also in the past we have played that Gotcha doesn't trigger with graveyard removal on the stack.  So no bootleg-pitty saves from GY hate effects.  Because our group is small and cut-throat this doesn't come up often so we really don't use that anymore.

[Wagner]

I also have Spell Counter which lots of people outright hate.  It's not that bad, IMO.  I still remember a hilarious incident where my friend asked me for the oracle text on Mana Drain and then "gotcha-ed" me immediatly after I said "counter target spell".   Spell Counter gets sticky when players team up and purposely say "spell" or "counter" so that the controller can pick it up.

I personnaly dislike that card since everyone has to be extra carefull about checking what we say, so people talk less and the game is just stressful until the player is gone. But, when I do play in a stack that has it, I find that suddenly refering to all mechanicks in French (we all tlak French, but still use English terms for most cards/mechanics)  does make the game funny for a few turns.

I can only imagine how much more annoying it would be it there was no other language to fall back to.

[Harlequin]

To the point above.  Sure people get quiet when Gotcha's are around, but if you have enough GY hate again it won't sit around for long.

Ok, here is the biggest point of debat in our stack:  When/where can you play Cheatyface From?  And at what point is he considered "in play." 
- The rules that we decided for In play is easy... if he is on the board, with the entire card uncovered.  So for example if you play a card like lets say Razia, and you hide cheatyface behind her, he is not considered in play until he is fully uncovered.  So if you only uncover like half of him for some reason he is 'caught' if someone sees him before he is fully revealed.

But here are some more interesting Cheaty Situations:
- You are tutoring, can you sneak cheatyface from your deck?
- Cheatyface is in some other revealed zone: Graveyard? normal-RFG? AWOL-RFG Zone? Cheaty-Caught-RFG Zone?
- Can you steal Cheatyface from in-play?  ie: sneak him into play under your control from your opponents in play zone?
- How about from an opponent's deck?  Like if you Grinning Totem someone.
- Here's an interesing one - can you play cheatyface as a morph as like your spell for turn?  If you do, can you unmorph him, and if you can - can you just flip him any time - or does it have to be sneaky.  Like I play a morph, and you attack me with some flying monster and I'm like -HAHA- unmorph cheatyface and chump block!
- Can you cheat other aspects of Cheatyface... like pull what we call the "Nate Peise" and put cheatface into your hand when he should go to the graveyard (like someone wraths, can you just casually put cheatyface into your hand instead of GY)... or like if you had brainstorm could you only put back 1 so long as 1 card was cheatyface.  Or someone mindtwists you, and you discard all your cards - but palm the cheatyface).
- [Edit: added] Can you lie about the exsistance of cheatyface both in play, and in a private zone.  For example, someone is about to balance and they ask how many cards each player has in hand - you have 3+cheatyface, can you say you have 3 and just put cheatyface in your lap for the time being?
- The "Sandwich Punch" Cheatyface rule.  If you have to leave the table, and your opponent's can mess with cheatyface (ie steal him by playing him from your in play zone) can you put something on top of him like a quarter or napkin to protect him from being 'sneaked' somewhere while you are away.
- What about External-Cheatyfaces.  I think my dream is to collect like 100 cheatyfaces and somehow sneak all of them into play at once.  Stormheard - pshh...  CHEAT-OWNED!

On this the jury is still mostly out, and basically all of those situations have come up in our games.  We basically just argue about it for 20 mins and then decide that F-it he's in its just a 2/2 flyer anyway!! 

Oh also what's the CMC of Cheatyface? 3 or 2.... 

[ShoryuuReppaX]

First off, why are you playing Cheatyface?

This is totally off the charts, but I suggest adding penalties to being caught. Losing Cheatyface is pretty weak. Make the cheater get you a sandwich. Maybe forced to play truth or dare. Take 3 shots of tequila. Strip down to undies and play air guitar. Given a suitable drawback for cheating, anything goes. For CMC, it's officially 3, but I say as long as you announce it, you can attempt to cheat. i.e. Kaboom targets you, and a Cheatyface gets thrown into your face. You say, ow, I take 2. No one cares, you're free. You get caught, time to drink.


Totally different question. What are some good graveyard hate suitable for T4?

A different but strongly related question: Do any of you refuse to run super-efficient cards? I love my stack being very Timmy/Johnny oriented. I refuse to run Whispers of the Muse. No Swords to Plowshares for me. I only run low casting cost stuff if they're way cool, like Angel's Grace. Probably this is why I don't have Cremate in my stack.

[Matt]

Withered Wretch is good, the new Withered Wretch is better.

I doubt anyone plays Rats' Feast though.

Loaming Shaman is cute.

[VikingMetal4L]

On graveyard removal: Tormod's Crypt is playable if you have a rule that doesn't count it as your spell for the turn, certainly better than Rats' Feast.  Off the top of my head the GY removal in my stack is: T. Crypt, Reito Lantern, Withered Wretch (soon to be joined or even replaced by Creakwood Ghoul), Cremate, Headstone, Stonecloaker, Night Soil, Dimir Doppelganger, Rapid Decay, Shred Memory, Mnemonic Nexus, and the draw-sevens Time Spiral, Temporal Cascade, Sway the Stars, and Once More With Feeling.  I'm thinking of cutting the cyclers Cremate/Headstone/Rapid Decay and possibly adding in Steamclaw.  Also there are probably too many draw-sevens in here, but they're pretty solid if you've fallen behind.  Sorcery speed almost kills them.

Anything I left out?

On Controvert: since you have to go to the effort of getting creatures in play, it hasn't been a huge problem.  Sure it's one of the strongest counterspells in the stack, but I haven't found its power level offensive.

On Spell Counter: I am wary of those Unglued/Unhinged cards which don't play well with regular MTG rules.  This includes but is not limited to cards which break the fourth wall and bring undue attention to real-world aspects of the game.  You could say I believe in the ideal game, independent of its specific physical representation.  So no Gotcha, no Denimwalk, no Chaos Orb.  I don't think the way you arrange your permanents and the precise words you choose to communicate with other players should have such a direct effect on the game.  Certainly these things can have an indirect effect on the game, as other players take clues from your language and actions to figure out what you're up to.  Still, for my stack, I've tried to draw a line, however fine, between what is acceptable and what isn't.

On the other hand, I recently got a hold of Rare-B-Gone and World-Bottling Kit, and intend to try them out this week.  Both make me a little uncomfortable, because different copies of the same card come with different expansion symbols and rarities, which "shouldn't" matter in the course of the game.  Still, both cards are "finitely axiomatizable" in that you can write down an explicit list of the cards in the stack that they affect and take that list to be the "Oracle" text.

Obviously other people have different opinions about what is or isn't too silly (or powerful) for their stacks, as the philosophy of Type 4 is relaxed enough to allow for a range of interpretations.  And that is awesome.

Q

[Anusien]

On the other hand, I recently got a hold of Rare-B-Gone and World-Bottling Kit, and intend to try them out this week.  Both make me a little uncomfortable, because different copies of the same card come with different expansion symbols and rarities, which "shouldn't" matter in the course of the game.  Still, both cards are "finitely axiomatizable" in that you can write down an explicit list of the cards in the stack that they affect and take that list to be the "Oracle" text.

The main problem of those cards is reprints.  You can make them functionally one-sided by changing the editions of your cards to subvert their drawbacks, and that can be unfair and against WotC policy in tournaments (making reprints better/worse = not the same).  However, since you build the stack, you can just get the right editions of the cards and force people to play those.