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Author Topic: Tyrant Oath 2.0  (Read 3728 times)
arkmagus
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« on: July 08, 2008, 03:35:47 am »

On June 20 Tyrant Oath lost the Gush-Bond engine.  There were some that espoused alternative ways like Bazaar of Baghdad and Deep Analysis to get around this, but my testing didn't yield anything encouraging.  I tried different card combinations, leading to my initial suggestion contained in Imsomniac 101's topic, "Epiphany..."  For those who haven't read that post, the premise of the design was to either oath up Tyrant or animate it.  This was the engine I suggested:

4 Bazaar
4 Deep Analysis
3 Tfk

It became clear, however, that the OP and I were taking different approaches to the deck design so I decided to continue refining the list before I posted it again. In subsequent testing, I found that the deck functioned well enough by cutting Bazaar altogether and keeping Tfk.  This meant I could focus on pure card advantage and hand-sculpting.  With that in mind, I added Mana Crypt to speed up the draw.  When I did so, I realized that I can now use other draws, particularly, Fact or Fiction and Read the Runes. Both spells complemented the overall approach which was card advantage, hand sculpting and discarding Tyrants.  I also didn't need Mana Drain to accomplish this, as a turn 2 play was almost a given with all the artifact acceleration and Crypt acting as Mox 6.

Before I posted this, I wanted to try it out in a real-world scenario, and a major tournament was the perfect opportunity to do just that.  On July 6, I took this to our Mid-year Vintage tournament.  It was attended by 57 players.  Here's what I brought:


Tyrant Oath 2.0

4 force of will
4 thirst for knowledge
2 read the runes
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 fact or fiction
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 flash of insight
1 brainfreeze
1 echoing truth
1 krosan reclamation
4 oath of druids
3 thoughtseize
2 animate dead
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 yawgmoth's will
1 decree of pain
3 tidespout tyrant
1 engineered explosives
--------------------------------
36 spells
 
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 mox sapphire
1 mox ruby
1 mox pearl
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
--------------------------
8 acceleration

4 forbidden orchard
3 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 island
--------------------------
16 lands

SIDEBOARD
1 hurkyl's recall
1 rebuild
2 pithing needle
4 leyline of the void
1 tormod's crypt
2 simic sky swallower
1 blazing archon
1 platinum angel
1 massacre
1 gaea's blessing
---------------------------
15

I faced Angel Oath, 2 Painters, TMWA, Fish and Grim Long.  It came in 2nd place after 6 rounds and finished 5th overall, conceding to Grim Long, the eventual winner.

Notes:

1. Krosan Reclamation was stronger than ever in this design since it can now be used to reclaim discarded Tyrants with an active Oath in play.

2. 2 Animate Dead(s) is the Goldilocks number in my testing.  3 shows up too much when I didn't want it to and the available draw means you could find it whenever it's necessary.

3. Cutting Bazaar meant you could draw to your heart's content without worrying that you might be seeing an Oath just to ditch it.

4. It plays aggressively. It doesn't need to keep mana up and it doesn't need Mana Drain to power its draw either.  Artifact acceleration is more than adequate to do so.  Here, I would acknowledge Mana Crypt for making it possible.  Incidentally, Mana Crypt is also marginally useful as Tfk fodder but it also sacrifices to Read the Runes when you need to.

5. Read the Runes is Tfk 5-6 and it can be a gem in an oath mirror to get rid of tokens.

6. Engineered Explosives and Decree of Pain are metagame calls.  I anticipated a fish meta.  Decree of Pain mattered on turn 3 onwards, at which time I had more than enough mana to cycle it.  It was particularly nasty against versions running man-lands and I actually managed to hard-cast it once to win outright. Instead, you may run Rebuilds and Hurkyl's Recall, if that's needed.

7. Sideboard is totally metagamed. Although I have to say that SSS really mattered if you're expecting Stp. Of course, you can just rely on bouncing Tyrant and getting it back in the game down the line.  It's a question of priorities and your metagame.

8. Some cards that didn't make the cut: a) Sensei's Divining Top - My other draws were strictly better, and they complemented my goals of card advantage, hand-sculpting and discarding Tyrants. Top contributed to hand-sculpting, 1 of 3 goals met. b) Impulse - 2 mana for 1 card.  It contributed only to hand sculpting, 1 out of 3 goals met. c) Merchant Scroll - no synergy, random. d) Tolarian Academy - You don't really maintain a high artifact count (i.e. Tfk). e) Show and Tell - Waiting for this card to come along while holding on to a Tyrant - which is more likely (3 to 1) - when you're deciding what to pitch is a waste of time. f) Skeletal Scrying - I could reliably cast Read the Runes on turn 2 for 2, or turn 3 for 3/4.  Scrying can't. This is not a control deck; its combo-control, emphasis on the first.

For anyone trying this out, I would like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks for reading.  Smile

Mike
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Nehptis
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2008, 01:26:07 pm »

Good list and thanks for keeping the Oath Dream alive!

1) Link to a tourney report?

2) Slaver is a DTB.  So, how's your Slaver matchup?

3) Even though Slaver is the DTB and there is a lot of it out there, did you consider the Triskev plan instead of the Freeze win?  If so, why Freeze over Triskev other than because of Slaver?  It pitches to TFK and is win now vs win if they can't draw.  Also, it can ping Welders, Bobs, Fish, etc.  It is troubling though when Triskev is Oathed up before a Tyrant.

4) I dislike Top, but saw it as a necessary evil w/o Brainstorm.  I'm glad that you are exploring a draw engine w/o Top.

5) Is 16 lands enough?  Were you ever in a mana squeeze due to poor draws or Waste/Strip hate?

6) Against Control decks are you holding the Seizes so that you can ensure that you punch thru an Oath or Animate Dead?  Or are you Seizing Turn 1 and then hoping to draw into another Seize or FOW+ Blue when you wish to cast your Oath / AD?
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 01:40:32 pm »

Good list and thanks for keeping the Oath Dream alive!

1) Link to a tourney report?

2) Slaver is a DTB.  So, how's your Slaver matchup?

3) Even though Slaver is the DTB and there is a lot of it out there, did you consider the Triskev plan instead of the Freeze win?  If so, why Freeze over Triskev other than because of Slaver?  It pitches to TFK and is win now vs win if they can't draw.  Also, it can ping Welders, Bobs, Fish, etc.  It is troubling though when Triskev is Oathed up before a Tyrant.

4) I dislike Top, but saw it as a necessary evil w/o Brainstorm.  I'm glad that you are exploring a draw engine w/o Top.

5) Is 16 lands enough?  Were you ever in a mana squeeze due to poor draws or Waste/Strip hate?

6) Against Control decks are you holding the Seizes so that you can ensure that you punch thru an Oath or Animate Dead?  Or are you Seizing Turn 1 and then hoping to draw into another Seize or FOW+ Blue when you wish to cast your Oath / AD?

One odd interaction about slaver and brain freeze, is I wound up winning a match when I get freezed because I shrugged, resolved it, welded in a platz during my upkeep and just won.  I like the triskev kill a lot more.  You can just randomly hardcast it and win, brain freeze is much harder to do so.
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"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
Nehptis
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 04:09:46 pm »

At Chaos:

That is a great observation.

Decks like Slaver can shrug off a non-lethal Freeze.  Plus in the days of yore Oath could win by just Gushbonding into a high storm count and didn't even need to see a Tyrant.  Now it's very difficult to do that.  So, the Freeze must come off a Tyrant play (animate or Oath).  This is another reason why I like Triskev over Freeze.
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wiley
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 05:13:10 pm »

I think he was saying that he survived a lethal freeze because of being able to weld in the angel, meaning he didn't lose from not being able to draw a card.  I wouldn't think that this would be a normal consideration as running Platinum Angel in Slaver is not the popular choice.  Though I am surprised that they couldn't resolve an oath->tyrant + spell against you to get the win.  I assume you had force/drain backup?

To the OP:
How often do you use the animates?  When you have used them was it always on tyrant or have you had the chance to animate opponent's creatures?
How well has decree of pain worked for you?  Are there any other options that you have considered for the spot?
You have EE, 3 Thoughtseize and 4 force against long builds, has this been enough?  You said that you lost to the Long player, would there be a way to shore up the match without weakening the deck?
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PETER FLUGZEUG
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 06:48:07 pm »

In ICBM oath, chalice is played. I think that's a great card against long, set at 1 especially.

Concerning the freeze-problem: if you go off with the tyrant--> freeze, it should be easy to cast one last mox after the freezing and bounce the angel, pass the turn. Why do you mention counter backup? that doesn't stifle the tyrant effect.

Also, to the OP: are you really sure read the runes is the perfect draw-discard outlet 5-6? As I see it, as you don't run drains (e.g. no need to keep much mana open nor the possibility to get a huge runereading) and you mention that you use those cards often to discard tyrant. Wouldn't something like careful study be just as good? Or compulsive research... (But i don't know if you often also want to discard lands just like moxen?)
What I don't like about readtherunes is the missing card advantage (as study, but that's cheap on the other side.)
I see that they can eventually dig through your deck with tyrant out. Does this make them in?
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Imsomniac101
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2008, 09:59:50 pm »

A very interesting list indeed. You seem to have gotten better responses in your thread than mine. Most probably due to the depth of your opening post. Congrats.

I don't really wanna hi-jack your thread, but I suggest that people check out the thread "Epiphany: Tyrant Oath Reanimator". There I present the premise of the addition of Reanimation spells to Bazaar Oath, and also present a cursory list, and a heavily refined list.
Please please please try out the refined list. It plays so well as a combo list. It is not primarily a beatdown list, although you can definitely win that way. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I won't post the list here or make comparisons, but definitely check the thread out.

@arkmagus
Also, some questions about your list. You've made some interesting card choices, but when I look over your list, you have 24 mana sources, but the avg cc of your spells seems high. I know it's an uncounterable Wrath, but Decree of Pain seems too expensive, especially when Fish is attacking your mana base.

Flash of Insight is interesting, and may try it out myself. Have you dug deep often hardcasting it?

But Read the Runes seems excessive. Careful Study digs just as deep for 2 mana cheaper, and if you need to draw deeper than 3, you'd be better off using a tutor (ie Intuition). RtR doesn't gain you card advantage either. I don't really envision you wanting to sac your mana too often either. Granted they are nice in the mirror.

TfK. Have you ever found that you didn't wanna discard your artifact mana? I eschewed them in my list mainly because of this reason.

Was Krosan Reclamation ever useful? I don't see them being used very often.

It also seems like you have too many important cards at 2 cc. Workshop decks are already gonna be casting Chalice at 2 against you. It seems as if you it's gonna hurt you alot, as you have no way of getting tyrant into play if Chalice =2 hits.

Also, tourny report please! Very Happy

[edit] : my mistake, on the Krosan Reclamation. My bad. lol
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 01:38:00 am by Imsomniac101 » Logged

Mindslaver>ur deck revolves around tinker n yawgwill which makes it inferior
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Evenpence>If Jar Wizard were a person, I'd do her
arkmagus
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2008, 02:51:53 am »

Thanks for the replies.  I'll break down my thoughts on it based on card choice, card play and matchups.

Card choice

1. Sensei's Divining Top - I liked Top. I liked it a lot, but it doesn't do as much as brainstorm and after the first activation, is strictly worse than Opt.  For that reason, I kept 5 fetchlands to maximize it and even use Krosan Rec at times to shuffle the library.  But playing it that way kept you back from maximizing your draw x's (Runes) or some other color-specific relevant play, especially Thoughtseize.  One way to see it is, the deck likes to dig. In the same way that Grim Long digs with draw 7's, mine digs with Tfk and Runes.  Another way to see it is in terms of card quality. I need to see new cards, not draw something I've seen the turn before.  In a strict sense, pure draw gives you more choices.

2. Read the Runes - I will compare the other draw cards mentioned.  Careful Study, Compulsive Research and Intuition.  Careful study is a good turn 1 drop, but in playtesting, it often competed with a turn 1 Thoughtseize.  I would prefer a duress-effect at turn 1 to disrupt my opponent's hand and gather intelligence rather than sculpt my hand.  On turn 2, most often you already have land, land, mox at which point you could do better than cast Careful Study.  A tougher call is Compulsive Research on turn 2.  But, again, as with Careful Study, you often find yourself holding Tfk and you can't cast both.  Also, holding back casting on your main phase turn 2, gives your opponent something to think about before casting any bomb.  Again, tough call but it's a matter of priorities. 

Intuition is another turn 2 card.  This is my scenario: I have developed my mana base but I need 2 cards to go off (Oath, Orchard or Animate + disruption or counter w/ Tyrant in the yard).  Intuition can give me 1 of those cards. I cast it, but opponent counters. All things being equal, the board retains the status quo. Scenario 2: Same board position. I cast Tfk to draw into random, likely 1 land, 2 business spells.  My business spells are likely to be control + combo.  If it's Thoughtseize and Animate ->GG. More likely it will be more board position.  Tfk (as with Runes) is meant to draw the inevitable combo, with control backup. In that way, it plays very similarly to Gush-Bond where you draw tons of cards, establish control and then go off.  I'm not saying Intuition is not good, as you will surely get the cards you need. I am just more comfortable with sufficient board control/backup before I try comboing out.

Back to Runes.  It's instant, same virtue as Tfk. Getting 2 on turn 2 at instant speed vs. 3 at sorcery (Research) is a tough call, but that's on turn 2. Down the line, Runes becomes increasingly powerful and with only 2 (a conscious effort to keep them out of the opening hand), the likelihood of mana aplenty before seeing one is very high. Also, the fact that Research competes for the same spot, not with Runes, but with Tfk was a major consideration. Finally, with Tyrant out, you can practically draw your deck and win outright with Runes.

3. Flash of Insight - Flash of Insight was a major boon to the Tyrant Oath build, not by what it did in the hand, as it was a poor to mediocre tutor, but what it did when it hit the yard. Fully 60-65% of Brainfreeze kills followed a recursion of Insight with Brainfreeze in the library or put back in it by Krosan Rec. Insight even permitted you to chain Ancestral, business, Tfk, business, Fow, draw, business, etc. to practically draw your library and win even sans Brainfreeze. So strong is this play, that Smennen lamented Insight's loss in the last iterations of Tyrant Oath. Presently, Insight, is even stronger as one of the main thrusts of this build is to actually pitch things in the yard. And there hasn't been a time when I wasn't happy playing Tfk/Runes and seeing either Krosan Rec/Insight/Tyrant in hand.

Card Play

1. Tfk - I've never had the problem pitching artifacts to the GY. I see this as an issue, however, if you are using Tolarian Academy.

2. Triskev - Tyrant Oath wins about 20% after the first activation. But it wins upwards of 75% of the time after the second activation on the back of Tyrant, Krosan Rec and Flash of Insight.  Triskev or Triskel in the board may be a good call, however, depending on what you expect to fight against (i.e. Slaver) and you choose that approach.  I would rather have an active Tyrant, however, as it can just as easily remove welders, among other things. One other interesting play with 2 Tyrants is in having two moxes and bouncing 1 of your opponent's permanents and 1 of your moxes. Rinse, repeat to remove ALL his permanents. You can't do that with Triskev.  Smile

3. Flash of Insight/Krosan Rec - I can't emphasize enough the significance of the first builds of Tyrant Oath with Krosan Rec and Flash of Insight.  Those 2 cards interact so well in the GY after a successful Oath activation that the combo is strictly diminished without either one of them.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that I am playing something else than Tyrant Oath combo without those cards. 

4. Thoughtseize - I play this everytime I draw it, even against control. It severely disrupts your opponent, keeps them from killing you outright or paves the way for an instant during their turn. At the very least, you gather intel on what he has. The question is, whether you want to combo off or wait for FoW/Thoughtseize as backup, you usually do.

5. Mana - 16 lands, or I should say: 2 islands, 5 fetchlands and 3 underground seas were meant for: a) turn 1 thoughtseize, b) get stripped and still draw with Tfk/Runes, c) avoid getting stripped in the first place.  But I did find myself holding on to Orchard if there wasn't one already in play, as this is easily the most important land.  Island in the opening hand and a mox/crypt usually meant turn 1 Tfk/draw into more mana such that mana denial becomes even less of a threat.

6. Animate Dead - Yes, I've had the chance to target an opponent's creature (in that case, a meddling mage from a fish player) intending to name Stp.  But he countered it, which was just as well since I netted a counter. I could imagine other nasty stuff, from opponent's Welder's to fatties and I can see how that can be a really fun exercise.

7. Decree of Pain - I tested this thoroughly the night before the tourney as a replacement of 1 EE.  Apparently, the mix of Orchards, fetches, underground seas and artifact mana was more than enough to make cycling this card viable on turn 3, so much so, in fact, that I had no qualms replacing 1 EE. Having said that, the strength of this card is really against fish and particularly so against versions running man-lands.  The tempo loss from cycling this on turn 5, for example, against attacking Factories or Conclaves is practically GG. This and EE, as I mentioned, may be replaced by Rebuild or Hurkyl's at the drop of a hat. This is a control slot, same as Echoing T. or Chain of Vapor and may be adjusted, even replaced, by a duress-effect against control matchups. It's important to note that any change in these slots does not essentially alter the deck flow. The structure is fundamentally resilient.

Matchups

1. Grim Long - Yep, my bad. I was wishing I had 3 COTVs to deal with this.  Maindecking this runs counter to the design however and would be a mistake.  3 in the side board is good. For that, I would cut Blazing Archon, Massacre and 1 Pithing Needle.  Why am I holding on to the 2 SSS? Quite frankly, it's won me many games that would otherwise have been difficult, but that's ascribed to my Stp meta. If you're expecting something else, go ahead and cut.

2. Slaver - I wanted to test this out but didn't have the chance anytime before and during the tournament.  I would speculate however that, all things being equal, Oath has a greater chance of going active before welder does, especially with the draw package outlined.  Also, you have 2 maindecked solutions in the form of EE and Decree of Pain to deal with Welders.

3. Workshops - I am reasonably comfortable in any Workshop matchup, as an active Oath is practically GG and your draw package gives you that edge. Rebuilds should give you an out for COTV@2. Oxidizes are another if you're expecting a heavy workshop meta.

Let's hear those ideas and I'll post mine as they come along.

I will post a link to the tournament details when it's available.  Smile
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 04:57:08 am by arkmagus » Logged
PETER FLUGZEUG
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2008, 03:28:32 pm »



2. Read the Runes - I will compare the other draw cards mentioned.  Careful Study, Compulsive Research and Intuition.  Careful study is a good turn 1 drop, but in playtesting, it often competed with a turn 1 Thoughtseize. 
...
Back to Runes.  It's instant, same virtue as Tfk. Getting 2 on turn 2 at instant speed vs. 3 at sorcery (Research) is a tough call, but that's on turn 2. Down the line, Runes becomes increasingly powerful and with only 2 (a conscious effort to keep them out of the opening hand), the likelihood of mana aplenty before seeing one is very high.
...
Finally, with Tyrant out, you can practically draw your deck and win outright with Runes.



the thing for me is: why spend 3 mana for a careful study-instant? Just because study costs 1, it doesn't compete with duress as turn 1 play. (Well, RtR surely doesn't because you don't even have the option of casting it turn 1... with 1 mana ofcourse) For example, if you have 3 mana (as you stated in your post) by turn two, why not play study+reanimate and win on the spot rather than doing nothing in your turn or tap out for the effect of study?

Is the "draw, then discard your deck (well, you get it...) if you have tyrant and two moxen out" really worth it or needed? I mean, you already run flash of insight which does the same thing (find the freeze or the rest of the broken)

Another example: You run animate dead, although necromancy is "better" (the effect) and even instant (if wanted) but costs 1 more. You won't say animate dead competes with oath because of the cc, will you? The main reason for playing necromancy would be trumping chalice@2, which would even be something to consider, now that i think of it...
(or, even bolder, to reanimate your opponents <7/10> in response to them trying to weld it in... then sac it because of necromancy eot for massive destruction)

I hope the few cool things about necromancy that came to my mind accidentially don't invalidate the point about the two filter cards mentioned above. What i was trying to say: it's good when cards are cheap.
thanks
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Nehptis
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2008, 03:50:39 pm »

I did some testing on MWS vs. Storm and Slaver.  Good, not great results.  COTV in the Board is the must.  Set it at 1 and don't look back vs. Storm.

I definitely like Trisk vs. BF.  But, I didn't like RtR.  I tried Study.  But, it was not much different.  Sometimes better, sometimes worse.  I'm going to try having only TFK as my main draw.  And plan to add a MScroll and a Mystical in the RtR slots to find my draw spells or even FOW / Will / Walk, etc with Mystical.  Next, I might even try SnTell as a 1 of instead of the Animates.  As long as you don't cast it into a Duplicant or Bargain or some other nasty spell it's pretty effective at getting a creature into play.

The biggest issue right now though is that almost every deck goes, Turn 1 Duress/Seize.  That is so annoying when you are on the draw and even more annoying when you are on the play and can't hide spells with BS during your opponents 1st Turn when they Duress/Seize you.
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arkmagus
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2008, 03:41:27 am »

There are 4 slots that are open:

Decree of Pain
Engineered Explosive
2 Read the Runes

Yes, Read the Runes is one of them.  To restate the premise, the main engine is Tfk.  It was my conclusion, given my time constraints, that RtR was most akin to Tfk (Compulsive Research losing out for being a sorcery, but this could very well change in further testing).   If I were to replace RtR, I would look for the next most similar card to Tfk.  The Decree and EE slots are control slots, they can be altered to admit a duress-effect or even an additional draw.

On the matter of the animate-effect, the additional cc of Necromancy is significant when an early play is available.  Assuming 3 mana, I would like to precede casting Oath or Animate with a thoughtseize.  Of course, I could go ahead and try anyway, but if the opponent successfully counters it, that's a lost turn. That difference of a turn could well be game. Granting the marginal utility of animating something at instant, your 90% play would be on Tyrant which can realistically be turned to a win only during your main turn.

I suspect that the 4 open slots mentioned above are critical to pushing this from being merely viable to something competitive. I am looking at other cards to try out later which I'll post.
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2008, 08:52:30 am »

I wasn't really advising for necromancy, just for the matter. I rather wanted to use that card to point out why RtR is worse than study, because of the cc.
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I will be playing four of these.  I'll worry about the deck later.
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