Online Vendors and Order Canceling

[The Atog Lord]

Having learned about Brian DeMars's Control Slaver list with Strategic Planning, I set about finding myself four copies of the card. I ended up getting two there and still needing two more. I thought I had secured another Strategic Planning, because my dad had placed an order for one for me from Star City Games' website. This order was placed before the price went through the roof, when it was still $20 or so. However, that night, the order was cancelled. I asked Ben Bleiweiss, who was there, about it. He told me that the order was cancelled because the card went up in price.

Needless to say, I was unhappy. No doubt, SCG has done a lot for the Vintage Community and I certainly appreciate that. Canceling my order because the price changed, however, struck me as less than wonderful. So, I wanted to share my experience here in case it is useful to anyone reading this.

What have your experiences been with online stores canceling orders due to price changes?

[Dante]

Less than wonderful is the understatement of the year - that is the biggest crock of shit I've heard all week (and I've been on vacation with my near-senile grandmother-in-law who gets her news programs mixed up).  If you have it online for purchase and someone purchases it, that's a valid transaction.  You'd probably have a legitimate beef, in the legal sense, but I'm not a lawyer.

That is shady....shady might not be the right wording, but unethical, yes.  If they don't make this right, I may not purchase cards from them anymore.

Bill

[Watanabe]

It is not the first time, it happened with Grinsdtone too... 

[iamfishman]

It is not right in the least.  What if the tables were turned?

Imagine you are a 14 year old who has been getting rocked by decks with 4 T. Academies for months in a row.  You work hard on your paper route, mow lawns, etc. and finally save up the $80 to buy four.  You place the order with an online vendor, send the payment which they receive, but before the cards are sent out, the DCI decided to restrict the card.  Overnight the price plummets.

Now that the tables are turned, would the vendor give you your money back: HECK NO!

[Dante]

I sent the following PM to Pete on the SCG forums

Pete - as a long-time reader, Premium subscriber, and someone who has purchased hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars of cards (both online and at SCG tournaments) from SCG, and someone who supports TMD as a moderator, I wanted to bring to your attention what I consider unacceptable behavior. I would have brought it to Ben B's attention, but see below:

<cut Rich's summary here>

This happened to someone that I know and trust, has been a Vintage stalwart for many years, and is a stand-up guy (so I trust this is all true). I can understand canceling an order if you're out of stock, but simply canceling an order because "the price went up" is completely unacceptable to me. If you have it advertised on your website at a given price, have it in inventory, and someone purchases and pays for the item, canceling that order (to me) is the equivalent of breaking a contract is unethical in my book.

Now maybe I don't have all the facts (but I trust this person that it happened to), but should those facts be true, unless SCG honors it's online order and sells this person a Strategic Planning for the price he ordered it at originally, among other things I will have to stop purchasing cards from SCG.

This will be a hassle for me, but I cannot continue to purchase products from a company that feels canceling paid orders on in-stock inventory is acceptable simply because something happened to the market between ordering and shipping.

Please let me know how this gets handled or, as the owner, if this is considered acceptable online selling behavior. If you're not sure who I'm speaking about in the post above, please let me know.

thanks for listening,

Bill

(Dante77 on SCG forums, Dante for the main SCG site, and Dante on TMD).

Should they not make this right, I will not purchase anything from them until they do so...utter horseshit.

[Godder]

Rich: Isn't this exactly what happened to you with Grindstone?

[The Atog Lord]

I have to say, for the record, that I believe that SCG has done much for the Vintage Community. They have held tournaments and they have paid feature writers. That said, I was quite disappointed, especially since I have purchased cards from Star City in the past without any incident. I might have expected this from some other online websites, but always felt I could trust Star City.

At first, I assumed that they had simply run out of stock. I asked Ben specifically if that is what happened, and was informed that it was not. He said it was because of the price change, and that Star City reserves the right to cancel orders for any reason. And, when I checked after the incident, there was still a Strategic Planning in stock, at $100. I guess the $80 was really that important to them.

Godder: This happened with ordering Grindstone from CCGHouse. I guess I expected more from Star City.

[Juggernaut GO]

well the bottom line remains that they are in business to make money.  They run power 9 tournaments because they rake in a ton of used cards when all the players gather to sell to them at less then wholesale prices.  So even if they just "break even" or take a loss on the entry fees, they are still in the black by thousands of dollars in potential profit with inventory.  It's nice to praise them for "all they have done for the vintage community"  but the truth is, they do it for the profit.  Anyone with power can run a tournament and people will come and enjoy it.

The fact that the majority of their business is done online and has the anonymous consumer-dealer relationship with no face to face contact, they are assuming that most of their transactions that end this way will never be disputed because it's too much of a hassle to deal with a company through email and over the phone.

I'd imagine that every time you place an order and hit the final submit button, that would act as some sort of contract with the prices set in stone but i'm no lawyer. 

It would have almost been better if they had just straight up lied to you and said "sorry, we are out of stock"  instead of admitting to renegging on a contract.

[eightywpm]

I think the legal term is "bait and switch" and it has been on the books for ages.

Just because SCG reserves that right does not mean they have that right in the first place; i cannot hang a sign on my resturant that says "we refuse the right to refuse service to black people."

They are completely screwed if you go after them.

legal costs would be more than 80 bucks but the same would be true for them, not to mention the bad publicity they're already getting here.  This is horrible business practice and you should keep them honest for the sake of other people who might want to buy any cards from them.  Same goes for CCGHouse.

[Juggernaut GO]

I just went through their entire FAQ on their website about order placement etc, there isn't a section anywhere that states that they have the right to change prices after orders are confirmed.  So I'm not sure where that came from

[oneofchaos]

I'm just sad that businesses get away doing this.  Flash is unerrated, I went to scg and said hmm they might be good, I'll need 4.  2 Dollar card ---> 15 dollars, and boom my order is canceled, money refunded.  I would think once I make a payment, the deal is legal and binding.  I can live up to my end of the deal but shops can't?

[Phoenix888]

Indeed this is complete crap.  I found a site selling $70 USD bottles of absinthe listed for $25.  I ordered 3, and  I know some others that did the same thing as well.  The next day the price was back up to normal as they must've caught their mistake.  I expected them to back out of it, because at that point they had sold many cases at that price, but they didn't.  This wasn't even a situation of prices changing, and they still shipped everyone their bottles at the $25 price.

I know I'll never be ordering anything from SCG after reading about this.   EDIT:  Glad to see the issue was resolved in a satisfactory and timely manner.

[outpost1]

Rich,

If you wish to contact me regarding this issue, please feel free to do so by emailing president@starcitygames.com.

Best wishes,

Pete Hoefling
President, StarCityGames.com
www.starcitygames.com

[Anusien]

If this ends up being resolved, satisfactorily or not, please post the ending.  I have a lot of trust in SCG, and this is the closest thing to a true negative story about them, so I'm very interested in the end of the story.

[The Atog Lord]

Excellent to say, Pete has just emailed me saying that he will take care of this. I did not expect this, but I should have had more faith in Star City, given their history. So, the misunderstanding is cleared up, and I am once again convinced that Star City is reliable and trustworthy. Thank you, Pete and Ben, for resolving this matter in a satisfactory manner. You've shown us once again that we can count on you. I know that I'm not the only person relieved that things have been set right.

[JACO]

I had a good friend who ordered a number of cards (ahem, Tarmogoyf) from StarCity, as well as CCGHouse, as well as 2 other online vendors. All of his orders were cancelled, and each claimed that they reserved the right to cancel orders, basically as they see fit to do so.

Frankly, StarCity's policies, and the other aforementioned places are a bunch of horseshit. They have real-time inventory from what I've seen, so they should never 'over-sell' any particular card. If something is listed for a certain price, sell it at that price. Doing anything else just betrays customers loyalty, even if the President of SCG is willing to make an exception for a high profile person like Rich Shay.

[Vegeta2711]

I know I'll sound like a shill since he signs my paycheck, but seriously, if you ever have a problem just e-mail or talk to Pete. I find that 99% of the time if he can fix the issue, he will.

[outpost1]

"I had a good friend who ordered a number of cards (ahem, Tarmogoyf) from StarCity, as well as CCGHouse, as well as 2 other online vendors. All of his orders were cancelled, and each claimed that they reserved the right to cancel orders, basically as they see fit to do so."

Please send me your friend's name (president@starcitygames.com). What you describe is actually not how we handle such situations, so I'd like to look into the matter.

"Frankly, StarCity's policies, and the other aforementioned places are a bunch of horseshit. They have real-time inventory from what I've seen, so they should never 'over-sell' any particular card. If something is listed for a certain price, sell it at that price."

And we do... within reason.

"Doing anything else just betrays customers loyalty, even if the President of SCG is willing to make an exception for a high profile person like Rich Shay. "

I didn't "make an exception" for Rich Shay. I believed we were wrong in his specific situation, so I made things right... same as I would for anyone.



Best wishes,

Pete Hoefling
President, StarCityGames.com
www.starcitygames.com

[Anusien]

I know I'll sound like a shill since he signs my paycheck, but seriously, if you ever have a problem just e-mail or talk to Pete. I find that 99% of the time if he can fix the issue, he will.

Most of these stories I've heard were either unsubstantial as all hell, or SCG did what they could to make it better.  This is why I was so interested in the thread, because it was so confusing to me.  It sort of goes against everything I know about SCG.  And let's face it, it's not like they need to rip somebody off for $80 or so.  From everything I see, SCG recognizes that customer loyalty is more important than a small gain in the short run.

[EnialisLiadon]

I know I'll sound like a shill since he signs my paycheck, but seriously, if you ever have a problem just e-mail or talk to Pete. I find that 99% of the time if he can fix the issue, he will.

Most of these stories I've heard were either unsubstantial as all hell, or SCG did what they could to make it better.  This is why I was so interested in the thread, because it was so confusing to me.  It sort of goes against everything I know about SCG.  And let's face it, it's not like they need to rip somebody off for $80 or so.  From everything I see, SCG recognizes that customer loyalty is more important than a small gain in the short run.

I agree.  This thread surprised me, because usually these kinds of threads are about smaller, less trust-worthy sites and stores.  I personally have sworn off Kard Kastle and Londes for their atrocious handlings of money and store credit and their nigh-nonexistent customer service.  I, like Anusien, was interested to see how this played out as I've regarded SCG as the most reliable store online and have had nothing but positive experiences with them.

I'm glad to see that Pete steps up to handle things personally and responds coolly to harsh and strong comments.

[Godder]

Rich: I knew it wasn't with SCG, but the problem was basically the same.

On a personal note, I remember getting a playset of Intuitions from SCG for $10, back before the rotation that took Ice Age and Mirage Block out of Extended, so people can and do get bargains at SCG. I'm pleased to see the boss step up and fix things, though, as I'm a big proponent of customer service.

[Anusien]

I wanted to necro this thread to talk about an ongoing issue between Magic Arsenal and myself.  I knew about the Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void combo, and I figured the card would jump up to about $5 from $1 once it became public.  So I went online to Magic Arsenal and ordered 12 at $0.89 each.  I received three automated e-mails, saying my order was received, ready to be processed, and then shipped.  Of note:

Dear Kevin,

Your order has shipped from our warehouse. You should not receive any future emails regarding this order.

For your reference, here is what you ordered:

Order Contents:
-------
 - 12x Helm of Obedience, Alliances
   Condition: NM | Language: English, $10.68
-------
Subtotal: $10.68
Shipping: $2.34
Tax:      $0.0
Total:    $13.02

Then I get an e-mail from them that says this:

Hi, on your latest MagicArsenal.com order you have been limited to 4 NM Helm of Obedience. You have been completely refunded to whatever source you paid from (credit card, PayPal, etc.). I'm sorry about this inconvenience but we try to keep all cards in stock especially on hot cards like this so other customers may have a change to buy them. Your order has been shipped and should be arriving to you soon. If there is anything I can do for you or if you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

I also check my credit card and I haven't received a refund yet (this was around 5PM, and still haven't received one to date).  But I figure maybe there was a problem, maybe they just ran out sometime between ordering and processing (though it's unlikely since I have three e-mails confirming purchasing 12).  So I e-mail back and ask:

Hi Kevin, we do have them in stock but we have limited your order to 4. This is because we had a sudden rush of people buying that card because it was under priced. I'm sorry about this but when something like this happens, our stores policy is to limit every order to a playset. I hope this has answered your question and if you have anymore, please don't hesitate to send me an email.

This claim is based on this off their Policy page:

MagicArsenal.com Inc. reserves the right to cancel any order outright or limit the quantity of part of an order at any time for any reason without prior notification. You will be immediately notified of the reasons your order was canceled, and any payment you made will be refunded immediately. Orders are very rarely canceled. If for any reason your order is canceled and you have not received a full refund for those canceled items, please call us at 425-605-0682 for a swift resolution of this matter.

So I still haven't received a refund, and it looks like they're still not going to ship me out the 12 Helms I ordered.  Helms are selling on their website at about $4 each, so they're really doing an extremely shitty move over less than $25!  They have the cards in stock (and in fact listed as sold out on their website, but the guy confirmed to me that they have them), so they're just arbitrarily gouging people.

Anyway, don't buy from them.  You'd think for $20 they'd be willing to try and make the customer happy, especially since this is the second of my orders that has gotten screwed up in less than a week.

[The Atog Lord]

The exact same thing just happened to me.

[Anusien]

The exact same thing just happened to me.

On what website?

[Anusien]

This is 100% breach of contract.  According to the laws of my state, Texas, our agreement qualifies as a contract, and your failing to fulfill the terms is a material breach of that contract.  And no, a mistake on one party (your pricing the item below what you think it is worth), does not make the contract void.

We had an agreement for you to sell me 12 items at a stated price.  I still haven't received a refund (which makes this also bait and switch, which is a form of fraud), and I'm not sure I would accept one.  If you're willing to rip me off over a matter of less than $25 (how much you'd make by selling the 8 extra helms at $3.49 instead of $0.89), I'm simply going to tell everyone.  I've already started posting the story of how you unilaterally and illegally decided to change my order on the forums of a few prominent Magic the Gathering websites.  As long as this continues, I'll continue to post status updates to those sites, and warn people not to buy from you all.  I'm sure your reputation will suffer more than $25 you stood to make.  I'm also perfectly willing to put this story in my column at Star City Games, which I'm sure will interest a lot of readers.

Do the right thing.  When Star City Games made a similar mistake over a matter of hundreds of dollars, they fixed it and looked like real heroes as a result.  I posted this story on the same thread so people have something to compare your business practices to.

Kevin Binswanger

[The Atog Lord]

The exact same thing happened to me on Magic Arsenal. I ordered eight Helms and received an email stating that they would only send four.

[Juggernaut GO]

is there a combo im missing?

[Tha Gunslinga]

Helm/Leyline of the Void mills the opponent's deck instantly.  It shouldn't work, but it does.

[Anusien]

I'm glad to report there was a happy ending to all of this.  I probably should have skipped all the e-mailing back and forth and just gotten on the phone.  When I got the guy from Magic Arsenal on the phone we talked for a little bit and I explained my point of view.  His thoughts were basically, "Look, I'm not trying to rip people off here, but I think this card is going to be incredibly hard to get in stock.  I had a couple of guys (you were one of them) come in here and buy me out, and that's not fair to my other customers." which is a very relevant point.  I've also suggested that he get the software in place to just limit the orders or limit the inventory so one or two people can't buy him out, and I think he's going to see about doing that in the future.  Anyway, the guy I talked to, Jeremy, was very reasonable and he and I were able to work things out satisfactorily.  I'll go ahead and point out that there have been three times I've had a question about an order of theirs, and this is the first time I had any trouble and we were able to resolve this.  I no longer have any question about buying from them in the future.

[The Atog Lord]

My ending was not a happy one. I pointed out to the manager that it increased the total price per card when he sent out only half of my order because shipping went up. He agreed to return half of the shipping cost. He did not, however, fix the problem. I ordered eight and only four are being sent. I am no longer willing to do business with a company that cancels orders because cards might increase in price. That is dishonest, its legality being something beyond my knowledge. There are plenty of places online to buy Magic cards. Magic Arsenal is not trustworthy enough to deal with.