[FreeArticle] Post-6/20 Drain Tendrils: Staying Ahead of the Curve by Cody Vinci

[Anusien]

Lotus and Time Walk are both fine cards to Gifts for.

[RaleighNCTourneys]

In DT, getting Lotus and Time Walk aren't that impressive because you will still need to cast draw spells in order to make any progress. Instead of Giftsing, you could have just been casting draw spells. If you don't have any draw spells in hand, getting Lotus and Walk is pretty bad for the investment.

I think it's a matter of do you want to straight up win with Gifts sometimes and sometimes have not-so-impressive Gifts due to the nature of DT, or do you want Skeletal Scrying which is less powerful in certain situations (sometimes way more powerful) but always reliable to get you 3 cards+ on turn 2 or later. It's also not to be overlooked that Scrying can get 1 or 2 cards (even 0 to add storm) and it can't be REBed/Pyroed. Also, Scrying can remove artfacts in your yard post-board (if you leave it in) against CS to prevent Welding out DSC. It's still really close in my mind right now which one I want in the deck, but I would still run Scrying as of now.

What are other people's thoughts? Do other people think Gifts should definitely be there over Scrying? Try to think of Gifts in context of DT and not what you remember from the Gifts era when you think about if it belongs.

Has anyone been able to test the two cards?

[piZZero]

Hey Cody!

Great article and great deck (well, you knew that already ). As you know, i've also been playing Drain Tendrils for quite a while, and in the end my decklist turned into Gifts Tendrils more than Drain Tendrils. I consider Gifts Ungiven the card that defines the deck more than any other card in the list. If you cast it, you are likely to win 90% of the games. Obviously i'm not talking about a 1st turn Gifts, coz then you might rethink if DT or GT is your deck. I'm talking about a tempo deck, controlling the game state at every given moment of it.

The deck has the best drawing engine available (AK+TFK). It also has one of the strongests protection packages available (FoW+Drains+2 Duress), and it has an insane amount of deck tutors and manipulators. With that said, i've come up with some thoughts on some cards that you might find interesting:

Tinker + DSC:
It's so easy to play it that it makes you a worse player. The inclussion of DSC and Tinker makes you play different and less control-ish. If this playstyle fits you then go for it, but my experience told me that in many, many, many games you get screwed by DSC. You are giving your oponent's bouncers a plusvalue that they wouldn't have if you wouldn't play it.

I also play Chain of Vapor and Rebuild. Both are 200% not synergic with DSC. If your opponent plays Platinum Angel, then we are forced to 1st Bounce the Angel, then cast Tinker for DSC. These type of plays are really bad imho.

And finally, we only play 3-4 TFK and a lonely Brainstorm to get rid of DSC when we draw it. All in all, i can see only disadvantages to DSC, so i rather play without it.

Ahhh, btw, i would NEVER side in Tinker + DSC against Control Slaver, NEVER. Control Slaver is such an easy match for DT or GT that i don't really care much about sideboarding. I just switch the 2 Duress and a Drain for 3 Pyro/REB and then take Empty the Warrens + Mystical Tutor for 2 Rack and Ruin. (Leaving 1 Tendrils Main Deck as finisher).

Gifts Ungiven VS Skeletal Scrying:
Gifts Ungiven is the best card in my decklist. All my Gifts piles are something like these:
- Lotus + Recoup + Will + Tolarian / Ritual
- Lotus + Time Walk + Tolarian + Recoup (if my Will has been Duressed or it is in my hand).
- Will + Recoup + Ritual + Mana Vault (if Lotus has been used)
- etc..etc... they all look the same.

People tend to play the gifts really agressively, but i see no rush to win with it. I just cast it, get 2 good cards into my hand and 2 good cards into the graveyard. As long as i'm controlling the game, there's absolutely no need to combo out.

I've also tested a lot Skeletal Scrying. The main reason why i don't play it is the life loss. When you play control-ish, life is very important. 2 or 3 extra damage could mean 1 or 2 turns. The longest the game last, the easiest it is to win. It's for this exact same reason that i don't play Thoughtseize over Duress.

Recoup:
This card is simply amazing. I hear people saying that Recoup is a dead card in your hand at the beggining of the game, and i disagree. GT has no dead cards at any given moment of a game. All cards will have their moment sooner or later, and you are just gathering resources to win with them. With Recoup in hand you can Intuition for Will + Lotus + Ritual and win couple of turns later with the mana from a Drain. But Recoup not only brings Will back, it also wins games with Tendrils of Agony. Imagine this situation:

Our board is: 2 Island + Volcanic Island + Mox Emerald.
Our hand is: Mox Ruby + Black Lotus + Dark Ritual + Tendrils of Agony + Recoup + Force of Will + Chain of Vapor

Cast Mox Ruby + Black Lotus + Dark Ritual (BBBBB - Storm 3). Cast Tendrils of Agony (BBB - Storm 4). Cast Recoup on Tendrils of Agony (out of the Volcanic + Emerald i.e. - Storm 5). Recast Tendrils of Agony with the remaining mana (Storm 6).

You might say that that hand is weird and it happens rarely, and i answer you that it happens more often than what you think. The deck produces a looot of mana and recoup abuses from that a lot.

Duress or Thoughtseize main deck:
Playing Duress/TGZ main deck is an incredible advantage for the mid/late game. I will never open with Fetchland for Underground followed by Duress, NEVER. That's the worse play you can make with the deck. That opening is only effective if you opponent plays Belcher or Long.

As i said, Duress gives you lot of information on the mid and specially on the late game. It allows you to analize the situation once given all the game information. This is very important, coz you can know if you can combo this turn, or you can wait 1-2 more turns without risking anything. Remember, the more you wait, the better it wins.

My general gameplay:
This is more or less how i plan the games. It always varies depending on your opponent and his deck, but these are some rules i follow that works great for me:

- On the early game, only fetch for Islands. The only things I do on the very first turns is to cast AK's, TFK's, Intuition and Mana Drains. No need to get your Duals wasted. It's during the early game that we need to generate card advantage to force your oponent feel the pressure of your hand full of cards.

- Counter only winning bombs. Whatever other crap he plays, let him enjoy it.

I never counter an opponent Ancestral Recall. Let him enjoy it! That will make him think you lack of Force of Will or Mana Drains. Cards that you'll use to protect your own bombs, such as Gifts, Will, etc... or that you'll use to stop opponent's winning bombs (Will, etc...). Ancestral alone doesn't win the game, so i always let it resolve.

- Patience is your best ally. I've said this already a couple of times, and I won't get tired of repeating it. The more you wait, the better and easier the game will be. When you are on a leading position, you don't need to rush. The more lands and mana sources you gather, the better. The more cards in hands, the better. Etc...  So you know, when you are gonna cast Yawgmoth's Will ask yourself: Can i wait another turn? Is my opponent gonna win the game if i pass turn?

- Value the enemy threats from start to end. In example: If your opponent (CS) casts 1st turn Magus of the Moon, is it really a threat? I mean, your opponent just gave you 10 turns to find Islands while he's also in the need of them. Your opponent only protection will be Force of Will, which you also play, coz he'll have to topdeck Islands or play TFK to find them. But we run Petal, Sapphire, Lotus + 3 Islands. That's 6 outs on every top deck. Once one Island hits play, the game is totally ours. We play double the draw than CS, so we will easily win the game. Plus! We play Empty the Warrens!

Or if your oponent is hurting himself a lot with Fetchlands, Force of Will, Vamp, etc... why not just rush a Mini Tendrils and then go for the Recoup to Tendrils instead of the Will's plan?

- Draw, draw, draw and win. That's how the deck works

And here there's my deck, for those interested: TP Gifts Tendrils

Cheers!

piZZero - Jordi Amat

[Neonico]

There is something i dont understand and i'd like to have Pizzero's advice about it as  I'm intensively testing the deck those last weeks to prepare the 2nd Bazaar of Moxen in France, and i still dont agree the choice regarding the maindeck inclusion of Tinker and Darkstell COlossus.

First, tinker, in tendrils mode, is a very strong card, grabing your lotus for free prewill, allowing to replay it and the sacrificed artefact after the yaugmoth's will for mana and strom, got a strong synergy with Gifts Ungiven + recoup combo when you play it so i tend to include it whatever my plan is, and in a bonus, you can steal games with Colossus with a strong backup hand.

So for me, it's an auto include, even if it makes me play the deck totally different as Pizzero probably playing it. Any feedback about that ?

Also, if i play it maindeck, i free 2 sideboard slots, and i want to know what all the DT players think about the inclusion of 2 duress maindeck. COmpared to Cody's list, i tend to lower my bounce spells, to include a Merchant scroll, wich can find a bounce in the shop matchup as easily as drawing it can be, and giving you more options in the control matchup (Grabbing some draw). The other free slot i wanted to test, instead of Skeletal Scrying, a single Deep analysis, which i think is the most interesting Draw spell behind AK and TfK when you play 1 gifts and 2 intuitions, any thought about that ?

Finally, as a Mana Producer Instant, i'm still not sold on which is the best for this deck, between Gush, Frantic Search and Dark Ritual. I tend to dismiss Dark Ritual in any of my controle/combo list, as i feel it being a real combo tool and totally out of space in a Drain deck, and i feel that frantic search being only good with tolarian Academy, Gush seems to be the best for me. Any thought about that ?

Actually, my testing list looks like this :
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanis Island
2 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 MAna Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Intuition
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tinker
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gush
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Recoup
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Darksteel Colossus

SideBoard
4 Yxilid Jailer
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Darkblats/Lava Dart
1 Enginereed Explosives
1 Trickbind
1 Stifle

[Tempus]

Tinker + Colossus isn't an autoinclude for me. It's strong and in the last tournament it won me some games against shops and opposing DSC (basicly he tinkers for DSC and I responde with the same play, just with counter and bounce backup ), but if you're playing Drain Tendrils or Gifts Tendrils as Cody's 2nd & 3rd and pizzero's list you want to storm. DSC is like Cody said, an alternate win, when you side out combo parts or can't win with tendrils due to multiple spheres/trinisphere. Tinker -> Lotus is perfect pre will, but that doesn't makes Tinker a must play card.

First turn Duress isn't that strong in DT and later you have Drains and/or FoW to protect your win or stall your opponent.

BTW All of Cody's lists contain Merchant Scroll and 3 bounce spells and they're very important. When some sphere's hit the board you don't want to search your bounce spell you want to have it in your hand as soon as possible.

I don't like DA in a Drain shell. It's a sorcery and paying 3U for 2 cards isn't that great. Otherwise you have to get it in your grave and Intuition and Gifts for DA doesn't sound that good. You'll always get it in you hand and without Tolarian it isn't that great.

For the moment I play with Dark Ritual, because it simplifies the B requirement of tendrils, Will, DT, so I can combo out without Lotus. Gush was ok, free carddraw is always nice and it saves your seas from wasteland (in my meta there are a lot of wastelands, so basics are important).

How do you like LoA?

[Neonico]

It's hard to compare builds if we don't speack of metagame. I play in France and that's a reason why DSC is in all my builds.

That being said, i really think that Tendrils remaining my first win condition, Tinker => Lotus is really strong for this plan. When you go for the will plan, Tinker => Lotus => will => Lotus + Mox is 5 Free storm and at least 4 mana after the will. ANy Tutor + Draw + tendrils and youre done. It even makes the Tendrils path often easier.

Speacking of Merchant scroll, it was regarding PiZZero's list and not COdy's.

LoA is sometimes in, sometimes i play one more fetchland, sometimes one more island, depending what french meta looks like.

[Tempus]

I play in Switzerland and at the last tournament showed 7 Shopdecks and 2 Fishstyledecks up (so 10 Decks with Wasteland in 30 Players) and 6 Stormdecks (including me with DT). DSC won me some games, but i was lucky that I never saw a Welder in 4 games against Welders (3 Shops, 1 CS).
This is another reason I run 4 basics. They're so good (1 MUD player thought I just play Islands ) and resilent against all the hate, so you can build up mana, bounce they're stuff and go crazy.

Bounce spells are too valuable to get cut, I'd rather cut Gush or the like for Scroll

[piZZero]

I forgot to speak about the lack of Merchant Scroll on my list. I've tested it a lot, and i think it's a card that also makes you play worse. Most of the players tend to Merchant for Ancestral, while this play is "ok" i tend to think it gives too much info. I've seen people opening with Land, Lotus, Merchant for Ancestral + Ancestral (probably with FoW backup). That's such a crap play in most of the cases!

There are better cards that are worth searching with Merchant Scroll, such as:

- Rebuild and Chain of Vapor
- Gifts Ungiven
- Force of Will and Mana Drain
- 4th AK post Intuition.

For me, it's only good when it finds the bouncers. MS for Gifts gives your oponent too much info, same as Force of Will and Mana Drain. MS for the 4th AK is a "kill more" situation. If you've already resolved (or not) Intuition for 3 AK, you are already in a winning position (most of the times). So, if I have to include Merchant Scroll only to tutor a couple of bouncers, i'm wasting 1 slot for another card that might suit better my playstyle. Cards in DT or GT come by drawing and drawing. You only need to tutor for Black Lotus and Yawgmoth's Will to win the game. Gifts Tutor you both, Demonic Tutor brings you Lotus and Vampiric/Mystical Will. Considering you will eventually draw one of the cards mentioned before, we have enough tutors to search for the remaining cards.

Regarding DSC, as I've said before, I respect people playing it, but to me it has too many "bad situations". It might win you a game or two against shops, but DT and GT already wins shops very EASY. Man we run 3 Islands main deck and 10 artifacts!!! Not to mention the 2 Rack and Ruins (SB) + 2 Bouncers (MD)+ Tinker Colossus (SB).

So against what other deck do you think you will need DSC? Personally, except from Dredge, i think i can beat any deck with my list on game 1. And on the Dredge game is only good if you open with 1st turn Tinker followed by Timewalk ---> Fantasy.

My advice: Try playing the cards that fits your playstyle the best. Drain Tendrils or Gifts Tendrils are very flexible decks, so just adapt it to what you think it's best and you are ready to go! If you think playing Skeletal Scrying is good, go for it! If you think Misdirection is good, add it! If you think TGZ is better than Duress, that's fine too! If you think the play Tinker for Lotus is good, good for you! Merchant, etc... etc...

My 2 cents!

piZZero - Jordi Amat

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

pizzero
scroll:
saying that merchant scroll makes you play worse is rather short sited, especially to say it always gets recall. When you tutor, you retrieve the best card in you deck. Making a mistake and always getting recall is what makes you a bad player, not playing scroll. I don't know about your local meta, but the majority of players in my area seem to know how to evaluate their roll in a game and use scroll accordingly.
thinker dsc:
there was also a comment about your DSC vs opposing platz, in regards to rebuild/chain. The obvious answer is to go lethal (via double beatz, or beat then TOA), then cast your bounce (opposed only being able to cast it pre tinker as you posted).
also, I've not really had the same issues with dsc in hand that you seem to have, 4x tfk, frantic search, brainstorm, or >7 in hand is typically pretty achievable. Don't forget your also running a robust mana base including tolarian and 4x mana drain. I've made the play a few times in testing.

[piZZero]

pizzero
scroll:
saying that merchant scroll makes you play worse is rather short sited, especially to say it always gets recall. When you tutor, you retrieve the best card in you deck. Making a mistake and always getting recall is what makes you a bad player, not playing scroll. I don't know about your local meta, but the majority of players in my area seem to know how to evaluate their roll in a game and use scroll accordingly.
thinker dsc:
there was also a comment about your DSC vs opposing platz, in regards to rebuild/chain. The obvious answer is to go lethal (via double beatz, or beat then TOA), then cast your bounce (opposed only being able to cast it pre tinker as you posted).
also, I've not really had the same issues with dsc in hand that you seem to have, 4x tfk, frantic search, brainstorm, or >7 in hand is typically pretty achievable. Don't forget your also running a robust mana base including tolarian and 4x mana drain. I've made the play a few times in testing.

I don't know if you read my arguments for not running Merchant Scroll, but to sum it up it's just a matter of how i prefer to play the deck. Personally i don't like giving my oponent many information, and MS gives too much of that. I've played the deck for quite a while now, and i've never felt the need of "Merchant Scroll".

Regarding DSC, I only play 3 TFK and a BS. To me, that's not enough. But as I've said before, it's just a matter of how you wanna play the deck. You wanna have the possibility of losing a game due to a DSC in hand? Then go for it. Sure it will give you more games than you'll lose it, but for me, i'd rather have 0% chances of losing a game due to stupid DSC in hand.

About the DSC VS Platinum play, i know i can just double beat and then bounce it. But i don't like the setup for winning a game like that. With a platinum on board, you are giving your opponent all the info he needs to know. He knows you are digging for a bouncer, so he'll just defend it. Without DSC but with Platz on board, you just need to keep playing normal. Remember that Platinum needs 5 turns to win the game. That's a lot of turns! Eventually you'll draw the bouncer. So you just draw, draw, draw (he won't cut ur draw, he'll counter the bouncer coz we'll overdraw him anyways), then win the game + bounce the Angel with 3 counters in hand (it happens when u draw a lot ^_-).

I've recieved this mail and i think it's interesting to answer his question:

Hey, I've been keeping up with the DT & GT threads on the manadrain and I really like your GT list.  I also like your SB over the ones Cody has suggested.  I was wondering if you would post your current SB and maybe how you side for a few different matches (long, slaver, dredge...).  Any info would be really appreciated.  Thanks - Tony from Charleston

My current sideboard:

1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Trickbind
1 Dark Blast
1 Engineered Explosives

VS Long:

+2 Trickbind
+3 Tormod's Crypt

-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Thirst for Knowledge
-1 Ponder
-1 Time Walk

VS Control Slaver:

+1 Dark Blast
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Rack and Ruin

-1 Mystical Tutor
-2 Duress
-1 Mana Drain
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Time Walk

VS Mana Dredge:

+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Tinker
+1 Darksteel Colossus
+2 Trickbind
+1 Engineered Explosives

-4 Mana Drain
-2 Duress
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Thirst for Knowledge
-1 Ponder
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Dark Ritual

(Vs Manaless: It's the same, i keep the Pyro/Reb's in to destroy Narcomeba's b4 mainphase, so he can't cast Dread Returns easily).

VS Painters:

+2 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Gaea's Blessing
+1 Tinker
+1 Darksteel Colossus
+2 Rack and Ruin

-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Thirst for Knowledge
-1 Mana Drain
-2 Duress
-1 Ponder
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Intuition

VS Fish:

+1 Tinker
+1 Darksteel Colossus
+1 Darkblast
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast

-2 Duress
-1 Mana Drain
-1 Ponder
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Dark Ritual
-1 Thirst for knowledge

VS Workshops:

+2 Rack and Ruin
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Tinker
+1 Darksteel Colossus

-2 Duress
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Dark Ritual

VS DT or GT:

+2 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Trickbind
+1 Engineered Explosives

-4 Accumulated Knowledge
-1 Ponder
-1 Mystical Tutor

Well, that's more or less how i use to sideboard in tournaments. It may be different depending on my opponent's skill and deck configuration.

If you have any question about sideboard decissions, feel free to ask

Cheers!

piZZero - Jordi Amat

PS: Remember, all decissions are taken based on experience and playstyle. If you feel that some of the things i've chosen aren't the best, feel free to swap them for others.

[Ufactor]

I haven't been liking Merchant Scroll so much, and cut it from the deck recently.  My reasons for doing so, however, are different from piZZero's

1) Out of all the "tutors" in the deck, Merchant Scroll is the one that gives you the fewest options.

2) It's one of the less busted things that can be done on turn one, and that's only if you drew a mox along with it.

3) After turn one, you should be casting AK, Thirst, Intuition, or Drain.  Merchant Scroll is usually the correct play if you have none of these other things.

4) It's a huge tell for your opponent.

5) It's a sorcery.

[M.Solymossy]

I don't know if you read my arguments for not running Merchant Scroll, but to sum it up it's just a matter of how i prefer to play the deck. Personally i don't like giving my oponent many information, and MS gives too much of that. I've played the deck for quite a while now, and i've never felt the need of "Merchant Scroll".

I think the argument for "giving information" is terribly flawed.   It doesn't matter if you give your opponent information; he's not going to have appropriate time to adjust.  Either he's playing  Combo, and HAS* to play around your usually 2nd force of will in hand, or shops wehre you tutor up rebuild and say "knock yourself out, chief", or against control when early you're getting recall or late game you're getting your 4th Accumulated Knowledge.  I've also used Scroll to tutor-chain Yawgmoth's Will.

Regarding DSC, I only play 3 TFK and a BS. To me, that's not enough. But as I've said before, it's just a matter of how you wanna play the deck. You wanna have the possibility of losing a game due to a DSC in hand? Then go for it. Sure it will give you more games than you'll lose it, but for me, i'd rather have 0% chances of losing a game due to stupid DSC in hand.

I hardcast DSC FOUR times at worlds, and won three of those games (one I was dead in the water anyway).  With this deck, if one bad card in hand loses you the game, you're losing anyway.  And you have the problem of drawing  Recoup AND Empty and them being dead in your list.  Empty the Warrens in this deck is hardly a win condition because it gives your opponents usually at least 2 or maybe more turns to do anything.  Why not just cast tendrils?

My current sideboard:

1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Trickbind
1 Dark Blast
1 Engineered Explosives

  This sideboard seems exceptionally flawed.  You're boarding in a 3 casting cost spell that's in your splash color against Workshops?!  Usually they will have a chalice or two, and AT  LEAST 2 spheres down before you get the chance to blast any of them.   Trickbind?  Are you kidding me?!?!!?  you'll NEVER get this to work against combo, and it's useless to board in against other decks because it just doesn't do enough.  You also have absolute dogpile against combo.  Hope you maindeck duress.  After board, I have 6 duress and I  still feel the matchup is downhill.   You board in THREE  tormods crypts against combo?   European combo players must not be very good, because I laugh really loud when my opponent plays tormods crypt and I'm playing combo.  The combo player will automaticalyl want to set up minds desire against you, because of the high control your deck plays.  You also cut Ponder AND time walk?!  NEVER cut time walk.  Time walk turn 1 allows you to get Drain mana up on your first turn, and Ponder lets you dig for duress/drain/fow.  TWO rack and ruin's against Slaver?  That's awful too.  You just want to shut off tinker/Will/Welder.  After that, they can really only hardcast Sundering Titan or slaver to bother you.  This is a lot more difficult than  it sounds, but is still very doable.  You should never cut duress against Mana'd Ichorid, as they play breakthrough/careful study/chain of vapor/chalice.   It's very easy on the play to duress their turn 1, as mana ichorid *should* be keeping solid hands without bazaar.  (land, breakthrough, etc).  Rack and Ruin against Painter?  Are you that scared?

Boarding out all 4 AK's in the mirror?  I  board out 3.  You want to leave one in because if your opponent does, you can still push yours through for a boatload to recover, or blow them out if you stopped their AK.


piZZero, your deck is fired!

- Mike Solymossy

Remember, all decissions are taken based on experience and playstyle. If you feel that some of the things i've chosen aren't the best, feel free to swap them for others.

I do agree with that, So don't take what I've said too personally Jordi, I'm addressing you because you made the post.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ pizzaro
as far as information is concerned, and decent opponent can correctly guess what your tutor target was most of the time, and scroll is usually just a better mystical (aside from finding will) as far as card advantage and time is concerned. It still get the following:
gifts
intuition
ak
recall
drain
fow
fof
mystical
bounce storm enabler/ mana generator

Also, as I have stated and 13nova has reinforced, the deck DOES hard cast DSC. In most scenarios I find it superior to ETW. It requires less set up, less dead cards (then the red splash), still plays around meddling mage, and better against 2/ 3ball (even though you do have other lines on play, a "resolve this and win" is still good), allows you to play tinker as a lotus tutor if needed, and has roughly the same clock

as far as your opponent having plats in play to your dsc. your problem is not dsc, its platz, weather or not you have a TOA or DSC kill your opponent still knows you need to find a bounce to win, so i really have no idea what point your trying to make. I was responding to your "I also play Chain of Vapor and Rebuild. Both are 200% not synergic with DSC. If your opponent plays Platinum Angel, then we are forced to 1st Bounce the Angel, then cast Tinker for DSC. These type of plays are really bad imho" post. Which is completely not the case

Do you really find it necessary to sb so many cards against shop?

[M.Solymossy]

I  also forgot to mention that  Tinker requires 0 setup, just "oh, you can't deal with  DSC right now... and I have tinker... GeeG?"  Empty requires A) Red Mana B) storm setup.  Against shops, their spheres will make this really hard to deal with.

[piZZero]

@Mike: Don't take the following too personal neither.

I think the argument for "giving information" is terribly flawed.   It doesn't matter if you give your opponent information; he's not going to have appropriate time to adjust.  Either he's playing  Combo, and HAS* to play around your usually 2nd force of will in hand, or shops wehre you tutor up rebuild and say "knock yourself out, chief", or against control when early you're getting recall or late game you're getting your 4th Accumulated Knowledge.  I've also used Scroll to tutor-chain Yawgmoth's Will.

I stated already a couple of times my "playstyle decissions". One of those, is to not give your opponent any info at all. This works GREAT for me, and i'll stick to it as long as it proves to work. I've played hundreds of games with the deck, and I can asure you that in none I felt the need of playing a Merchant Scroll. If you like to play different, good for you.

I hardcast DSC FOUR times at worlds, and won three of those games (one I was dead in the water anyway).  With this deck, if one bad card in hand loses you the game, you're losing anyway.  And you have the problem of drawing  Recoup AND Empty and them being dead in your list.  Empty the Warrens in this deck is hardly a win condition because it gives your opponents usually at least 2 or maybe more turns to do anything.  Why not just cast tendrils?

Man, if you hardcasted DSC 4 times at worlds and managed to won 3 of those, i can only see 2 possible scenarios:

1- Drain Tendrils (or Gifts Tendrils) is definetly not the deck you should play.
2- Your opponents were really bad.

How can you hardcast DSC 4 times in 4 games and not have managed to win earlier? Maybe your playstyle needs to be improved a bit. Maybe move Tinker/DSC to the SB?

You say that Recoup and Empty are dead cards in the list, and I said (as well) in my first post that I consider Recoup one of the best cards in the deck, never being dead, always ready to win the game (unlike DSC). Empty the warrens might not be as "efficient" as Tendrils when it comes to "killing your opponent" now. It's as effective as DSC coz it requires 2 turns, well, sometimes only 1. You say it requires a "setup", but that's totally false. If you would have read my 1st post carefully, you would have notices that on the early/mid game all I wanna play are: Islands, Artifacts and Drawing cards. That's the setup for any winning condition for me. After that early/mid game, the deck wins alone. Empty is a very good solution against some decks, allowing you to kill your opponent with a storm count of 3 or 4 tops: Land, Mox, Crypt, Empty wins many games. Not that i would ever do it against an unknown deck, but against Workshops, Fishes, Goblins, etc... it just wins the game.

This sideboard seems exceptionally flawed.  You're boarding in a 3 casting cost spell that's in your splash color against Workshops?!  Usually they will have a chalice or two, and AT  LEAST 2 spheres down before you get the chance to blast any of them.   Trickbind?  Are you kidding me?!?!!?  you'll NEVER get this to work against combo, and it's useless to board in against other decks because it just doesn't do enough.  You also have absolute dogpile against combo.  Hope you maindeck duress.  After board, I have 6 duress and I  still feel the matchup is downhill.   You board in THREE  tormods crypts against combo?   European combo players must not be very good, because I laugh really loud when my opponent plays tormods crypt and I'm playing combo.  The combo player will automaticalyl want to set up minds desire against you, because of the high control your deck plays.  You also cut Ponder AND time walk?!  NEVER cut time walk.  Time walk turn 1 allows you to get Drain mana up on your first turn, and Ponder lets you dig for duress/drain/fow.  TWO rack and ruin's against Slaver?  That's awful too.  You just want to shut off tinker/Will/Welder.  After that, they can really only hardcast Sundering Titan or slaver to bother you.  This is a lot more difficult than  it sounds, but is still very doable.  You should never cut duress against Mana'd Ichorid, as they play breakthrough/careful study/chain of vapor/chalice.   It's very easy on the play to duress their turn 1, as mana ichorid *should* be keeping solid hands without bazaar.  (land, breakthrough, etc).  Rack and Ruin against Painter?  Are you that scared?

My sideboard works as intended. Trickbind works wonderfull against combo. Maybe you are a lucky guy that always draws 2 Duress and a bomb (and the mana to cast it) and your opponent only has the "lonely Trickbind" in hand, but when i play, i feel super strong with my main deck and sideboard against combo. Tormod's Crypt is such an awesome card against combo, seriously. It allows you to NOT lose on turn 1, winning enough time to get Mana Drains online, and start casting TFK, AK's, Intuitions, etc... Once that is set, no matter how many duresses you cast, that you won't cross the boarder. You mention that you laugh at your opponent when he/she plays Tormod's against you, coz you setup a Mind's Desire kill. Well Mike, I laugh at combo players when i play the Tormod's Crypt, watching how they are forced to setup for a Mind's Desire Kill. Mind's Desire (if not in hand) takes a couple of turns to setup (at least), enough to get a Drain, FoW or Duress.

About Rack and Ruin. I think it's the best card in the sideboard. If you read again my playstile tricks, you'll notice that on early game all i play are Islands and artifacts. If your opponent is lucky enough to get "2 chalices and 2 spheres" on turn 1-2 (of course, i'm the dude that plays no counters and allow everything to resolve.........), then all i need to do is wait, wait and wait. As soon as i get 3 Fetchlands and a couple of Islands, you'll see how funny the game turns. But anyways, considering a more common scenario, let's say your opponent is good and casts Chalice (@0) + 1 Sphere which gets FoW'ed by me. What's the real threat here? Eventually i'll get 3 lands and just Rack and Ruin the crap out of the board and then recast a couple of moxes and Empty the Warrens for the win. Easy.

Rack and Ruin VS slaver is such a good card. It doesn't get countered by Pyro/REB's post SB and it clears the board, no matter what welder brought in. Seriously, it's too good! To me, welder is a crap card alone. I just care about TFK, which is usually the ONLY draw they play (remember that in the LCV there's no proxies, meaning no Strategic Planning (yet)), and it's easy win. I haven't lost a match against Slaver yet with the deck.

Rack and Ruin VS painter's is GG. No discussion about that. Painter's is a really easy match with 3 Pyros, 2 Rack and Ruins, DSC, and Gaea's... (added to all the main deck hate).

Boarding out all 4 AK's in the mirror?  I  board out 3.  You want to leave one in because if your opponent does, you can still push yours through for a boatload to recover, or blow them out if you stopped their AK.

I understand your decission of leaving one AK in. But i don't agree with it. I prefer to take them all out and make my opponent think that i've left at least one (that's what MOST of the people would do). If you know your opponent has left AK's in, you might play your intuitions really different and slower, while i just get all the advantage i need with TFK. Btw, what makes you think your opponent has left all the AK's in? In most of the cases with your lonely AK you'll cicle it. Unless your opponent is bad and has left them all in.

piZZero, your deck is fired!

I really apreciate your opinions. It's good to see how different people plays over the world. That's what amazes me most of this game! But on the meantime, I'll stick to my deck and my playstyle, which took long time to master

Cheers and thanks for your comments!

piZZero - Jordi Amat

[M.Solymossy]

With regards to hardcasting DSC.  I would sit on hands with 3+ counters/duress, and drain something big (bargain once, fow twice, and a Triskelion once), and hardcast that guy.  IT's a weak play, but When I have more counters than my  opponent has hand, I feel comfortable with it.

[Moxlotus]

Tormod's Crypt is such an awesome card against combo, seriously

As a former storm combo player, no it isn't.  Crypt is not an awesome card against combo.  It is a mediocre card that shuts off a grand total of 1 card--Will--and it doesn't even do that 100% since they can just will, crypt, in response to will Rit, Rit.  Any competent storm player should be able to win all kinds of games with Crypt on the table.  It's not a bad card, but don't trick yourself into thinking Crypt is amazing against a storm player and overvalue it too much.

  As soon as i get 3 Fetchlands and a couple of Islands

I wouldn't count on getting 4-5 lands in play by turn 4-5.  Particularly since some that you draw will be wastable lands.

[quote  Rack and Ruin VS slaver is such a good card[/quote]
I have no idea why Rack and Ruin would be a good card against Slaver.  Gonna hit their mox and hope they don't draw another one to Weld?

Why is there 1 blessing in the sideboard?  If it's for painter, then why not add a 2nd DSC to make it an infinite loop so they can't just extirpate/crypt you and not care about the blessing?  It looks like a 2nd DSC is strictly better than blessing.

[piZZero]

Tormod's Crypt is such an awesome card against combo, seriously

As a former storm combo player, no it isn't.  Crypt is not an awesome card against combo.  It is a mediocre card that shuts off a grand total of 1 card--Will--and it doesn't even do that 100% since they can just will, crypt, in response to will Rit, Rit.  Any competent storm player should be able to win all kinds of games with Crypt on the table.  It's not a bad card, but don't trick yourself into thinking Crypt is amazing against a storm player and overvalue it too much.

Thanks for your comment from the "combo player point of view" but, you won't convince me about Tormod's Crypt. As I've said, it works great for me against combo, giving me enough time to setup my hand. If a player is casting Will with Crypt on table and he's able to Rit + Rit in response, that means that the game is already in the mid/late game, meaning you won't win me anyways. What makes you think i won't have any Drain/FoW/Trickbind? Anyways, i don't wanna keep discussing this coz as I've said, every player has a playstyle and Tormod's Crypt just fits perfectly in mine.

  As soon as i get 3 Fetchlands and a couple of Islands

I wouldn't count on getting 4-5 lands in play by turn 4-5.  Particularly since some that you draw will be wastable lands.

I will only give him the chance to waste a land if I don't need it. I won't drop a "Underground/Volcanic" from my hand in turn 3 if I need it. Workshops is one of the easiest matches GT has, specially when you play controlish.

  Rack and Ruin VS slaver is such a good card

I have no idea why Rack and Ruin would be a good card against Slaver.  Gonna hit their mox and hope they don't draw another one to Weld?

If you have no idea, then you might wanna test it and you'll find that out. I've won so many games by a stupid R & R to a couple of Moxes and then just cutting TFK's.

Why is there 1 blessing in the sideboard?  If it's for painter, then why not add a 2nd DSC to make it an infinite loop so they can't just extirpate/crypt you and not care about the blessing?  It looks like a 2nd DSC is strictly better than blessing.

That's a personal choice. I don't agree that a 2nd DSC is better. If you lost 1st game, why on earth would you go 2 DSC?

[oneofchaos]

You sideboard the Gaea's blessing to avoid losing to painter.  However painter can just extirpate the Gaea's blessing.  Now, since you play one DSC maindeck, by boarding in a second one, you wil allow your opponent to grindstone away your library until your down to two DSC in the deck.  The grindstone is going to keep milling both these cards as they share a color (with painter in play), but DSC lol's and says I go back in the deck.  This happens an infinite number of time, and is undisruptable.  By doing this, you force the painter player into not winning off grindstone.

[nineisnoone]

I have no idea why Rack and Ruin would be a good card against Slaver.  Gonna hit their mox and hope they don't draw another one to Weld?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but is there a point of welding out one Mox for another?

[Naurion]

I have no idea why Rack and Ruin would be a good card against Slaver.  Gonna hit their mox and hope they don't draw another one to Weld?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but is there a point of welding out one Mox for another?

You are missing something, and there might be a point in welding one mox for another:

The reason some people might say Rack and Ruin is a good card vs. Slaver is that you can destroy the Mox they are targeting with Goblin Welder in response to the activation, fizzling the weld. Moxlotus's comment is saying that even if you make the Rack and Ruin play in response to a weld, the Slaver plaer can just play another mox and weld again.

There are two situations I can think of that someone might weld one mox for another: (1) To generate Mana/color fix, or (2) if someone tries to destroy your mox when you have an active welder, you could weld to fizzle their spell/ability.

[nineisnoone]

I have no idea why Rack and Ruin would be a good card against Slaver.  Gonna hit their mox and hope they don't draw another one to Weld?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but is there a point of welding out one Mox for another?

You are missing something, and there might be a point in welding one mox for another:

The reason some people might say Rack and Ruin is a good card vs. Slaver is that you can destroy the Mox they are targeting with Goblin Welder in response to the activation, fizzling the weld. Moxlotus's comment is saying that even if you make the Rack and Ruin play in response to a weld, the Slaver plaer can just play another mox and weld again.

There are two situations I can think of that someone might weld one mox for another: (1) To generate Mana/color fix, or (2) if someone tries to destroy your mox when you have an active welder, you could weld to fizzle their spell/ability.

Well, I suppose I thought there was something more to it than that. To me that's like saying FoW is a dead card because your opponent could draw into another copy of whatever they countered. 

And as for fizzling a Welder activation, it can work the other way as well.  Rack and Ruin in response to the Welder activation, fizzling the activation and destroying 2 artifacts, which is the more likely play since you can see the Welder in play so you know they can fizzle your Rack and Ruin.

[Moxlotus]

To me that's like saying FoW is a dead card because your opponent could draw into another copy of whatever they countered. 
 

If you're Welding, it means that you have something big in your yard.  Sure they can R&R your stuff in response, but CS plays like 11 artifacts that can easily be played to Weld again.  I would think that there are better cards in the deck that would be more useful than a "solution" that is so very temporary.  That is different than, say, forcing a Welder because they only have 2 more Welders in the deck--not 10.

That's a personal choice. I don't agree that a 2nd DSC is better. If you lost 1st game, why on earth would you go 2 DSC? 

You are already bringing in DSC for tinker in the match.  DSC #2 is strictly better than Blessing.  You can still lose with blessing quite easily.  With DSC #2, you can't lose to painter.  If someone can explain how 1 blessing is better than a 2nd DSC against Painter I would love to hear it.

[piZZero]

That's a personal choice. I don't agree that a 2nd DSC is better. If you lost 1st game, why on earth would you go 2 DSC? 

You are already bringing in DSC for tinker in the match.  DSC #2 is strictly better than Blessing.  You can still lose with blessing quite easily.  With DSC #2, you can't lose to painter.  If someone can explain how 1 blessing is better than a 2nd DSC against Painter I would love to hear it.

DSC #2 ties the game due to the infinite loop. If you lost game 1, what's the use to tie game 2 and only hope to tie the match by winning game 3? Playing a card in SB that is only good if you win game 1 is like playing Sharazad... Gaea's >>> DSC #2 no matter what. Yeah right, your opponent might have Tormod's Crypt on board too... but yeah, we are the ones that play no counters and let everything resolve, right? ...

Cheers,

piZZero - Jordi Amat

[credmond]

And as for fizzling a Welder activation, it can work the other way as well.  Rack and Ruin in response to the Welder activation, fizzling the activation and destroying 2 artifacts, which is the more likely play since you can see the Welder in play so you know they can fizzle your Rack and Ruin.

Welders can't fizzle Rack and Ruin by welding in response to R&R. R&R will still destroy the other target artifact (i.e. the one that wasn't welded). As long as R&R had 2 legal targets when it was cast it will try to fulfill as much of that upon resolution.

[LordHomerCat]

That's a personal choice. I don't agree that a 2nd DSC is better. If you lost 1st game, why on earth would you go 2 DSC? 

You are already bringing in DSC for tinker in the match.  DSC #2 is strictly better than Blessing.  You can still lose with blessing quite easily.  With DSC #2, you can't lose to painter.  If someone can explain how 1 blessing is better than a 2nd DSC against Painter I would love to hear it.

DSC #2 ties the game due to the infinite loop. If you lost game 1, what's the use to tie game 2 and only hope to tie the match by winning game 3? Playing a card in SB that is only good if you win game 1 is like playing Sharazad... Gaea's >>> DSC #2 no matter what. Yeah right, your opponent might have Tormod's Crypt on board too... but yeah, we are the ones that play no counters and let everything resolve, right? ...

Cheers,

piZZero - Jordi Amat

Actually, that's wrong.  If you draw game 2, you will just keep playing games until someone wins 2.  Matches in Magic are not technically 3 games, but rather are a race to 2.  So, you could have a match where I win game 1, we draw the next 5, you win a game, then we draw some more, then you win another and you will win the match.  Ask a Dragon player about it sometimes: drawn games might as well not count for anything, and you keep playing games until time runs out or someone wins two.

You can't just assume that you will always counter tormod's crypt and painter and grindstone etc. etc.  Sometimes things don't go according to plan, especially when they are running a ton of REB's against your mostly blue deck.  The second DSC will draw the game, instead of them grinding you, blessing triggering, them extirpating it, and then grinding you again when they untap and killing you.  I'm with Phil on this one.

[nineisnoone]

To me that's like saying FoW is a dead card because your opponent could draw into another copy of whatever they countered. 
 

If you're Welding, it means that you have something big in your yard.  Sure they can R&R your stuff in response, but CS plays like 11 artifacts that can easily be played to Weld again.  I would think that there are better cards in the deck that would be more useful than a "solution" that is so very temporary.  That is different than, say, forcing a Welder because they only have 2 more Welders in the deck--not 10.

Fair enough.  To be honest, there was a bit of a misunderstanding here because for some reason I thought you were talking about welding one mox for another, which in retrospect was a pretty silly thing to think.  But thinking that, I was more curious about it than trying to defend the card.

[Moxlotus]

Actually, that's wrong.  If you draw game 2, you will just keep playing games until someone wins 2.  Matches in Magic are not technically 3 games, but rather are a race to 2.  So, you could have a match where I win game 1, we draw the next 5, you win a game, then we draw some more, then you win another and you will win the match.  Ask a Dragon player about it sometimes: drawn games might as well not count for anything, and you keep playing games until time runs out or someone wins two.

This.  I've gone into game 5 (it might have even been 6) against Shockwave when he played Dragon before at GenCon years ago. 

[piZZero]

Actually, that's wrong.  If you draw game 2, you will just keep playing games until someone wins 2.  Matches in Magic are not technically 3 games, but rather are a race to 2.  So, you could have a match where I win game 1, we draw the next 5, you win a game, then we draw some more, then you win another and you will win the match.  Ask a Dragon player about it sometimes: drawn games might as well not count for anything, and you keep playing games until time runs out or someone wins two.

This.  I've gone into game 5 (it might have even been 6) against Shockwave when he played Dragon before at GenCon years ago. 

Here, where I play, rounds are 50 mins. You tell me how you play 6 games in 50mins, when you spend most of the time shuffling.

Also,here where I play, when 2 DSC's get milled by a painted Grindstone, you tie the game and move onto game 3. Rounds are best out of 3, not the 1st to win 2, at least where I play, the LCV (sanctioned tournaments with nice lvl of judges). We had this problem couple of times already and it turned out as I've said. That's the reason why i run Gaea's over DSC #2.

Peace

piZZero - Jordi Amat

[M.Solymossy]

Actually, that's wrong.  If you draw game 2, you will just keep playing games until someone wins 2.  Matches in Magic are not technically 3 games, but rather are a race to 2.  So, you could have a match where I win game 1, we draw the next 5, you win a game, then we draw some more, then you win another and you will win the match.  Ask a Dragon player about it sometimes: drawn games might as well not count for anything, and you keep playing games until time runs out or someone wins two.

This.  I've gone into game 5 (it might have even been 6) against Shockwave when he played Dragon before at GenCon years ago.

Here, where I play, rounds are 50 mins. You tell me how you play 6 games in 50mins, when you spend most of the time shuffling.

Also,here where I play, when 2 DSC's get milled by a painted Grindstone, you tie the game and move onto game 3. Rounds are best out of 3, not the 1st to win 2, at least where I play, the LCV (sanctioned tournaments with nice lvl of judges). We had this problem couple of times already and it turned out as I've said. That's the reason why i run Gaea's over DSC #2.

Peace

piZZero - Jordi Amat

Your judges are absolutely wrong.   We play 50 minute rounds too, but when Dragon was a big deck, it would draw any game it was about to lose.   I definitely saw a Dragon player go 2-1-5 drawing every game it couldn't win by turn 3 against Long.