Is Arcane Denial viable in Type 1?

[The Red Panda]

It doesn't, you counter your own 0cc spell, like moxen and whatnot.

[meadbert]

Plagiarize never costs 0 mana.  The idea is to counter your own Tormod's Crypt, Bauble or Mox and in that manner you draw 3 cards off Denial.  Pretty good.

Tormod's Crypt and Explosives are intersting alternatives to Baubles.  The Baubles are solid if you are looking to tutor up Yawg because they really do have insane synergy there.  Still, Crypt is great against Ichorid, Slaver and Long so it basically is good against nearly everything.

Chalice of the Void might also work although I am not sure.  Chalice@1 is fairly one sided in that there are very few 1cc cards in this list.  You have Ancestral, Vamp, Mystical and then Vault and Sol Ring if you play those.  Vault and Sol Ring pitch to Thirst and all 5 can be Denialed.  Repeal frequently costs 1 if it targets a 0cc permanent but you can always Repeal opposing creatures instead.


Here is one thought:
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Darksteel Colossus

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Tinker
1 Time Walk

4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Arcane Denial
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Repeal

sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Explosives (Great answer to Resistor)
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl'sRecall
1 Chain of Vapor

EDIT:  I splashed Red for Warrens since that answers a ton of maindeck problems.

[kl0wn]

The Baubles are solid if you are looking to tutor up Yawg because they really do have insane synergy there.  Still, Crypt is great against Ichorid, Slaver and Long so it basically is good against nearly everything.

See, my beef here is that yes, baubles are amazing with Will, but Will should pretty much win regardless of whether you have baubles in the yard. Baubles seem to be win-more here.

Crypt and Chalice are excellent for getting you to a nasty Will. Which would you rather do - cast cantrips that don't affect the game state, or RFG your opponents graveyard? How about shutting out roughly 25% of your opponent's deck until they can find an answer?

Chalice of the Void might also work although I am not sure.  Chalice@1 is fairly one sided in that there are very few 1cc cards in this list.  You have Ancestral, Vamp, Mystical and then Vault and Sol Ring if you play those.  Vault and Sol Ring pitch to Thirst and all 5 can be Denialed.  Repeal frequently costs 1 if it targets a 0cc permanent but you can always Repeal opposing creatures instead.

I think Chalice is a little better than fairly one-sided; as long as it's not set at 2, you can draw 3 off every one of your cards that Chalice has shut out by countering them with Denial. Your opponent doesn't get that option.

I just keep coming back to the choice between running 4 Chalice/4 Crypt or 8 baubles in the maindeck. I dunno, it seems like baubles don't really do anything in comparison.

[Liam-K]

a concern with chalice, if your opponent recognizes your strategy, is them countering the Arcane Denial and you ending up with a Chalice=0 in play.

[beder]

Plagiarize never costs 0 mana.  The idea is to counter your own Tormod's Crypt, Bauble or Mox and in that manner you draw 3 cards off Denial.  Pretty good.

Tormod's Crypt and Explosives are intersting alternatives to Baubles.  The Baubles are solid if you are looking to tutor up Yawg because they really do have insane synergy there.  Still, Crypt is great against Ichorid, Slaver and Long so it basically is good against nearly everything.

Chalice of the Void might also work although I am not sure.  Chalice@1 is fairly one sided in that there are very few 1cc cards in this list.  You have Ancestral, Vamp, Mystical and then Vault and Sol Ring if you play those.  Vault and Sol Ring pitch to Thirst and all 5 can be Denialed.  Repeal frequently costs 1 if it targets a 0cc permanent but you can always Repeal opposing creatures instead.


Here is one thought:
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Darksteel Colossus

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Tinker
1 Time Walk

4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Arcane Denial
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Repeal

sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Explosives (Great answer to Resistor)
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl'sRecall
1 Chain of Vapor

EDIT:  I splashed Red for Warrens since that answers a ton of maindeck problems.

IMO, that's a pretty interesting build. Consistent and with the add of the second win condition - empty the warrens - it should be more versatile.
I have two suggestions :
- brainstorm : even if it is not especially synergistic with the whole deck, the card is too good not to be an auto include
- bounce : in order to deal with an early game big robot, chain of vapor could be a real contender (perhaps replacing the 4th repeal). Of course, chain is also really interesting to create a huge storm for your new 2nd win condition "Empty the warrens". Given the extremely high number of 0CC artifact you are using, this would allow you not too be dependant of yawgmoth/yard, in order to generate high amount of goblin tokens.

Just my 2 cents

[meadbert]

Chain is pretty good and I encourage anyone who tests this deck to report on how it does.  One of the best uses is sacrificing Academy in front of a Yawg for huge storm.  The result is you get a lot more blue mana.

Brainstorm never worked out.  There are few shuffle effects and there are a ton of cantrips so Brainstorm turns into a cantrip that costs u instead of 0.

The main case where I want Brainstorm is that it is a 5th way to get DSC out my hand.

I acutally suspect that Merchant Scroll would do better than Brainstorm since you can Scroll up Recall on turn 1 and then have Denial or Force backup on turn 2.  Also, Yawg is so busted in that list that Scrolling for Mystical is also a strong play.

[Blitzbold]

I really like your way of thinking and appreciate the open discussion of your idea and the concept as a whole. I can remember that we once tried Arcane Denial - but that was in a time, when Mana Leak wasn't printed.

I'd also prefer using artifacts which could actually affect the state of the game in one or another way. Chalice and T-Crypt are obvious here, but maybe we're able to find another gem to abuse. When talking about CotV in here I immidiatetly thought about the old Mono-U Deck abusing it along with B2B as permanent disruption. B2B is out of contention considering this deck's manabase, but I like the control shell when brwosing through your latest list, as it seems comparable to me.

[Cavius The Great]

It doesn't, you counter your own 0cc spell, like moxen and whatnot.

But isn't that 6 mana for 3 cards? Doesn't seem good...

[IthilanorStPete]

It doesn't, you counter your own 0cc spell, like moxen and whatnot.

But isn't that 6 mana for 3 cards? Doesn't seem good...

Nonono, Plagiariaze isn't involved in this. You play a Mox, then you Arcane Denial it. 2 mana and Denial + 0cc spell --> 3 cards.

[wox2]

Arcane Denial+0 mana artifact looks simple to Demar´s draw two cards for 1U... Interesting how restricting Brainstorm opened doors for old cards...  I will try Denial in Slaver when I will have some time.

[Cavius The Great]

It doesn't, you counter your own 0cc spell, like moxen and whatnot.

But isn't that 6 mana for 3 cards? Doesn't seem good...

Nonono, Plagiariaze isn't involved in this. You play a Mox, then you Arcane Denial it. 2 mana and Denial + 0cc spell --> 3 cards.

Ah, I get it now. My mind was set on countering an opponent's spell. Thanks for the clarification.

[Evol daN]

shouldn't it work like:
trigger goes on the stack giving him the option to draw.  When the trigger resolves he either choses to draw or not to.

I don't think you can plagiarize after he decides.

Since this seemed to be in question I thought I would confirm this. Triggered abilities look for an affirmation upon resolution from the stack, since noone recieves priority during resolution, you cannot obtain the draws in question.

However some things unmentioned:

If denial was used during your turn to force a spell through, you can play it in responce to the trigger being applied to the stack in your opponents upkeep. Plagiarize will then deter an opponent from capitalizing on this weakness of A.Denial, will steal their draw, and possibly short-out a key tempo aspect of their game. 

If A Denial was played as a defensive spell during an opponents turn, Plagiarize in your upkeep will again prevent this exploitation and prevent EOT draws. I am not saying it is worth it, especially when spending your mana in your own upkeep, and especially considering the cost (3U is steep for something not ending the game).

Card disadvantage tutors are commonly played in Vintage. Whether your opponent is searching for an endgame or positional piece, denying, delaying, or complicating the aquisition of that piece is always advantageous. Plagiarize on an opponents upkeep accomlishes this. Once again, I am not saying it is worth it, especially considering the cost, but it is worth mentioning as this provides a definate strategic boon. In this potential use, I wonder about the psychological effect, is Plagiarize less likely than say FoW(on the actual threat) to draw counter-magic and begin a counter-war?

Based on this, A. Denial and Plagiarize work well on a tempo related front, though I think there are definately more solid cards to run to affect tempo.

[ix-ir]

Arcane Denial would seem like a natural fit with Tezzeret.

[IceOaks]

a concern with chalice, if your opponent recognizes your strategy, is them countering the Arcane Denial and you ending up with a Chalice=0 in play.

Lol, I am insanely tickled by this... Given this deck runs on multiple 0 cc spells, that's the best thing that could happen to you!

[meadbert]

Arcane Denial would seem like a natural fit with Tezzeret.

If I were to spend 5 mana I would rather get Magus of the Future .

[asi]

While talking about cute tricks: Multani's Presence works with Arcane Denial as well (also ok when chalice at is played). Probably way too bad for vintage, though.

[agesga]

Do you think that chrome mox could fit some 0cc slots in this deck now that has been unrestricted?

One question about using arcane denial. Please tell me if I'm wrong
My turn:
I cast a 0cc artifact, then as I have the priority i must cast arcane denial to counter the artifact and pass the priority. Now the other player would think about countering denial.

[meadbert]

Do you think that chrome mox could fit some 0cc slots in this deck now that has been unrestricted?

One question about using arcane denial. Please tell me if I'm wrong
My turn:
I cast a 0cc artifact, then as I have the priority i must cast arcane denial to counter the artifact and pass the priority. Now the other player would think about countering denial.

It would be better for them to counter the artifact!
If they counter Denial then you still get your Bauble or Mox.  If they counter the Bauble/Mox then Denial is countered upon resolution because it no longer has a legal target.

When I first came up with this idea I considered this to be a huge flaw, but in testing I found it was not a problem at all.  Here is why:
The three most common counters are Force, Drain and REB/Pyroblast.
If they use Force then it is a 2 for 2 trade and there is no harm done.
Drain will probably not be up on your first turn.   If they Drain the Bauble it is a solid 2 for 1 win for them, but they get no Drain mana for their effort.  This is definitely a good play for them, but Drain can do far worse!
Finally REB and Pyroblast generally cannot counter the 0cc spell.

Chrome Mox is interesting.  Generally this deck wants to turn its moxes into blue cards by using Denial, Repeal and Thirst.  Turning a blue card into a mox is the opposite but you could just counter Chrome Mox and having drain mana on turn 1 Consistently could be pretty good.

[kalisia]

Very good work Meadbert! Thanks for the great ideas around Arcan Denial.
Like Blitzbold, I think that a mono-U deck could be tried. And I also think that we can find 0 or 1cc artifacts more interesting than Baubles. Trying to build around Trinket Mage and a Strong tool box could not be possible? Including Aether Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, EE, Pithing Needle, Dreadnought with Stifles ? Each time you can cast a Trinket, you are in a good shape if you have an Arcan in hand. Adding another win condition without adding a third color should be better. For example, DSC and Sundering Titan. A Meddling on Tinker should not be a problem with sevral Trinket and Aether Spellbomb. I think a very control deck in UB colors may be competitive and interesting to build.

[agesga]

Thinking about arcane denial and its usability, I started thinking about including it in Oath.
This list has not been tested (it's just an idea, so feedback is more than welcome).

Let's call it arcane oath:

The junk (10)
1 Mox jet
1 Mox Shapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
3 Chrome Mox

The business (8)

4 Oath of Druids
3 Tidespout Tyrants
1 Brain Freeze

The Engine (14)

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ancestral recall
4 Thirst for knowledge
1 Yawgmoth will
1 Necropotence
4 ManaMorphose

Countermeasures (13)

4 Mana Drain
4 FOW
4 Arcane Denial
1 Balance

Lands (15)
4 Forbiden Orchad
4 Tropical Island
4 Fetch
1 Island
2 Underground Sea

Sideboard (depending on the meta)

Some comments:

Manamorphose: it's a cantrip that allows a first turn mana drain. I thought that necropotence could be another great addition with manamorphose.

Arcane Denial: the number of 0cc artifacts has been reduced, but in emergency situations (and plenty of mana) you can feed it with a second oath, or manamorphose

Chrome mox: help oath out fastly; natural food for thirst for knowledge/arcane denial

Balance: I love this card.

Other options that I keep in mind to experiment:
1 Enlightened tutor
1 krosan reclamation
1 time walk
1..3 hellkite overlord

Expecting your improvements.

[meadbert]

This list actually contains some intersting ideas.  First of I need to get something out of the way though.

You obviously must add Time Walk and Brainstorm.  Ponder should also get some consideration as well.

I am not sold on the Manamorphose/Necro plan.  Necro still seems too situational.  Also, Manamorphose is a solid card in general, but with Arcane Denial it becomes less needed since while you may not have Drain mana up on turn 1, you do have Denial mana up on turn 1.
Also, because of Orchards, Oath generally does not need that much mana fixing.

Your intersting idea is Balance.  Balance is a very powerful effect.  The other interesting white cards are Enlightened Tutor and Argivian Find.  For those who do not know, Argivian Find is an 1cc, instant speed white Regrowth that only works on Artifacts and Enchantments.  Argiving Find seems especially well suited for Tyrant Oath since you can grab a mox out after Oathing and go infinite.  You can also get back a countered or Duressed Oath or you can get back a used Tormod's Crypt to reuse against Dredge.

Another intersting card is actually Rootmaze.  The idea is to drop Rootmaze and bounce your opponent's whole board.  This way combo decks are hosed as well.  Rootmaze sort of acts as a replacement for Chalice/Null Rod that ICBM Oath runs.  I am not saying it is better, but it has some synergy with the Tyrant plan.  Chalice is still a super solid card in this deck.  You can Arcane Denial it.  If you run Argivian Find you can drop Chalice@0 on turn 1 and if your opponent Forces it, you can Argivian Find it and replay it the same turn.  After bouncing your oppoent's whole board with a Tyrant it is convenient to drop a Chalice@0 or even Chalice@1 to prevent them from dropping a ton of moxen or Rituals to win.  Also, Chalice pitches to Thirst.
That Chalice shuts off your own Moxen is not bad since you can either pitch them to Force or Arcane Denial.

I would definitely suggest running Gaea's Blessing instead of the Brain Freeze.  There is so much Painter now that decking is sort of weak.  With Blessing you only need two Tyrants.  Also you could probably drop Yawg Will if you add Argivian Finds.

[agesga]

Thanks to meadbert for the corrections/proposals.

Of course brainstorm was on the first written list but somehow i forget it when posting. Obviously is a must.

I won't be able to discuss the list until next weekend, so don't worry if my response is delayed.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

@meadbert: Please have a look at the ideas I have been tossing around on the Tezzeret thread: MonoU Control with arcane denial/Tezzeret.

Tell me what you think about it.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36484.30

(Now, adding black for just will+demonic will be good.)

[Eddie]

Thinking about arcane denial and its usability, I started thinking about including it in Oath.

I've been trying Arcane Denial in Oath as soon as I saw this thread. It's working great so far. The ability to draw cards or counter a key spell to take one more swing is great. But an Oath list might fit better in a different thread.

I'm not that fond of ManaMorphose in your list. Thirst for knowledge together with Arcane Denial is also questionable. I'd rather use Impulse in that spot. This is the decklist I've been using, adjusted by the latest ICBM build:

// Mana
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

// Creatures
1 Hellkite Overlord
1 Akroma

// Spells
4 Impulse
4 Force of Will
3 Arcane Denial
4 Negate
2 Misdirection
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Wipe Away

4 Oath of Druids
1 Gaea's Blessing

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Scroll Rack
4 Chalice of the Void