A Second Potential Nut Kicking Card

[Hi-Val]

I'm going to keep this thread in my mental bookmarks section right next to this gem of a thread to remind myself how bad people are at actually predicting how good/bad a card is.

This card is more comparable to Fact or Fiction than Moonlit Bargain. The instant speed is pretty ridiculous. Being able to draw tons of land off this and still go hunting for spells is amazing.

[LordHomerCat]

Obviously, being able to draw your entire deck if platinum angel is in play or angel's grace in hand makes the card leap out as interesting and worthy of experimentation and not dismissable outright.

That is not true at all.  Final Fortune is like a time walk if you have Plats out, and yet is awful and unplayable.  To claim that, because a card might be good WHEN YOU CANT LOSE THE GAME makes it worth considering is a pretty big leap in logic.

[Wise]

You guys are just looking at the "draw" potential of this card, and not he realistic possibilities  EVEN with 22  0 cc mana sources, 8x 5cc cards (4 fow 4 Nauseam) and the rest 1 cc spells you have an average mana cost of 1.84, which is a little un realistic, I say ANY deck which runs this card will have an average cc of 2, so 5 cards could net you - 10 life easy, I just don't think it will pan out, I like the idea of an instant speed bargain, but I think the price you will pay for life will greatly outway the cost of playing the card, while yes on occasion you will flip pure sackage, but its pretty likely that you will only be drawing on average 5-6 cards , I may also be a nay sayer, but I am going to have to agree with Webster, replace ALL your Windfall's and Infernal Contract's with it, this card still wont see play.

Being able to draw tons of land off this and still go hunting for spells is amazing.

wtf, how often do you just draw tones of land off a ancestral recall, brainstorm, bargain, or desire? I mean yes it happens, we all can think of plenty of occations, but realistically how often? not often enough to make it worth playing these cards, Realistically you have a in the "theoretical" deck I posted in this post you will still only have a 36% of drawing land if you play this first turn, so drawing 10 cards only 3 - 4 of them will be land/mox (mathematically)

and I like how everyone wants to build a deck which takes damage from High CC cards around PLATZ, I mean  its mana people!

[Hi-Val]

Calm down, turbo. Getting four cards off this is pretty good IMO, and being able to replace flipped land with a supplemental card for some life points is good too.

Also, kobold-clamp.

[Wise]

Calm down, turbo. Getting four cards off this is pretty good IMO, and being able to replace flipped land with a supplemental card for some life points is good too.

Also, kobold-clamp.

ok I am sold, B/R Nauseam Kobold


I duno, I am just not convinced it all, it does sound really good, but mathematically I don't like the numbers, but then again this is vintage right!

[credmond]

Lord Homer Cat,

How is saying a card might be good in situation X a big leap in logic? If I were to say it is for sure going to rock the vintage world then that would be one thing.

Being able to draw your entire deck is better than simply taking an extra turn. It means a guaranteed win.  This is a two card combo costing one white and 2 black and 3 colorless that wins on the spot. One of the cards in the combo can't be countered. Tezzeret is much more fragile than that and you have to pass the turn and it looks like that will see vintage play in spite of the early batch of naysayers. That makes it in my opinion at least worth a bit of experimentation. Especially since the card on its own could be used to draw you into that combo and other combo enablers like duress or tutors.

All I am saying is this card might cross the threshold into vintage and if it doesn't its because its not quite broken enough like dream halls. That statement could not possibly be any more logical.

My statements are humble and carefully qualified. All I am saying is this card is worth a second look and a bit of experimentation.

[arctic79]

This card has the potential.  Likely what will happen is when the DCI nukes something else on us, this card will stand out as a replacement.  Until then though it will take some ingenuity to craft a deck that can abuse this card to it's full potential.

[M.Solymossy]

I gotta agree with Mr. Ochoa on this one.  You can pay 3BB to draw some cards, while I'll be Playing in game 2 after killing you.  This card is BAD.  Life is too much a resource right now.

[arctic79]

Oath may have gotten a good sideboard option.

Kederekt Leviathan   
Creature - Levitathan 
When Kederekt Leviathan comes into play, return all other nonland permanents to their owner's hands.
Unearth 
  5/5

This card I think warrants some thought.  Not the best thing in the world but it has potential.

Verbal warning for off-topic posting.  -DA

[Moxlotus]

I'm going to keep this thread in my mental bookmarks section right next to this gem of a thread to remind myself how bad people are at actually predicting how good/bad a card is.

This card is more comparable to Fact or Fiction than Moonlit Bargain. The instant speed is pretty ridiculous. Being able to draw tons of land off this and still go hunting for spells is amazing.

Don't forget Suppression Field.  What a format breaker that thing turned out to be

The instant speed is pretty ridiculous, but it's another card that involves a decent amount of resources to use and as such is something you don't want in your opener or as a topdeck after you blow your load and fail.

[korangar]

EVEN with 22  0 cc mana sources, 8x 5cc cards (4 fow 4 Nauseam) and the rest 1 cc spells you have an average mana cost of 1.84, which is a little un realistic, I say ANY deck which runs this card will have an average cc of 2, so 5 cards could net you - 10 life easy

...err

22 cards cc 0 = 0 cc
8 cards cc5 = 40 cc
30 cards cc1 = 30 cc
=
60 cards with total cc 70 = 1.1666 average casting cost. Not so different from bargain, and if you draw 10 cards you'll only lose 5 life if you hit a FoW o Nauseam... For sure you'll run cards with higher costs, but adding 4-5 bombs and a pair of tutors will rise the average cc to .... 1.5 ??? Not much for an instant speed bargain (and I'll never play 4 of these, maybe 2-3)

[eightywpm]

If mindlock orb sees lots of play, Cunning Wish may find its way into decks as a solution to resolved threats.  This card fits nicely into a wish sb.  As a 1of you do not have the fear of flipping more over while reloading a hand.

[Implacable]

If mindlock orb sees lots of play, Cunning Wish may find its way into decks as a solution to resolved threats.  This card fits nicely into a wish sb.  As a 1of you do not have the fear of flipping more over while reloading a hand.

Orb won't see any play, because it's blue, and not an artifact.  But, on the other hand, this card is pretty solid by itself, either as a 1 or 2-of in a control deck, or maybe as some sort of engine in a combo deck.  The former is much more likely.

[wiley]

If mindlock orb sees lots of play, Cunning Wish may find its way into decks as a solution to resolved threats.  This card fits nicely into a wish sb.  As a 1of you do not have the fear of flipping more over while reloading a hand.

Orb won't see any play, because it's blue, and not an artifact.  But, on the other hand, this card is pretty solid by itself, either as a 1 or 2-of in a control deck, or maybe as some sort of engine in a combo deck.  The former is much more likely.

It is an artifact though.  It is also blue (wern't all artifacts blue anyway?).  I'm guessing there will be room in vintage for this card.  Time will tell where though.

[Cell_Z]

Kobold Clampy Tendrils.
Stupid yes. But there you are.

[BreathWeapon]

Is Trinket Mage a legitimate threat now?

Sigil of Distinction   
Artifact - Equipment 
Sigil of Distinction comes into play with X charge counters on it.
Equipped creature gets +1/+1 for each charge counter on Sigil of Distinction.
Equip: Remove a charge counter from Sigil of Distinction.
 #219/249

Verbal warning for off-topic posting.  -DA

[themasonjar]

One thing that will help push this card over the edge is the unrestriction of Chrome Mox. 

There are several constraints to playing Ad Nauseam:
1. You must be able to consistently generate not just 5 mana, but 3BB.
2. Your curve must be on average, lower.
3. You must be able to turn drawn cards into resources

Chrome Mox dovetails with these constraints because it:
1. Generates colored mana
2. Lowers the curve
3. Turns cards into a resource (mana)


Sample theoretical list:

4 Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Memory Jar

4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea

4 Ad Nauseum
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
3 Grim Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Rebuild
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Average cost of each spell: ~1.5

This is based off the Grim Long shell, but has a few key differences.  You need to run less land so that there are more things to imprint on Chrome Mox, but it works out because that means you need to run more rituals, all of which can be imprinted.  All of this is untested and would need serious tuning, but I think it has the right concepts to best abuse Ad Nauseam, turning them into Bargains 2-5.

[ix-ir]

I'm a little surprised at the negative reaction toward the card, people are way too partisan between 'omg junk' and then assuming that anyone who doesn't dismiss it thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread. It's a less good Yawgmoth's Bargain so is surely worth a look. The legacy disruption that people tend to choose to go with it seems quite promising - 4 Duress and 4 Pact of Negation, the Pacts replacing Force of Will which obviously doesn't play well with Ad Nauseum. Run 2 or 3 Ad Nauseum along with Necropotence, Mind's Desire and Yawgmoth's Bargain and Mana Drain. Mind's Desire/Yawgmoth's Bargain and Ad Nauseum all fit into a similar strategy and curve. Another thing worth considering might be Intuition as a tutor as it could be used to strip your deck of the expensive cards while powering up Cabal Ritual, I'd certainly choose this over Grim Tutor which fights the deck's need for life as a resource. Thoughtseize also seems suboptimal as you need the life resources. Both Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are worth considering although one Mox Diamond is probably the limit.

[nineisnoone]

I don't think that the card will be that much of an impact player.
I don't see it working well with Drains.  Drains need  . This needs  .  Being forced to fetch double dual lands or get three lands makes the pairing a bit impractical.
I don't see it working well with Rituals.  Why?  Well to my mind it fights for the Tendrils of Agony spot.  Both need rituals to be cast, one on the other hand pushes you towards a win (typically winning).  The other draws you some cards.  The thing is the cards you drew were probably so that you can cast Tendrils to win.  So I don't see it as being better than adding more Tendrils to the deck.  And once more Tendrils are added to the deck, the synergy breaks down because drawing into your Tendrils is more risky and less useful.

The only deck I could see it working in is a big mana Black control deck.  This, however, at the moment doesn't exist.  Black control (old school Sui-Black and Ichorid and generically Duress) is small mana and proactive.  Threats are more important than passive drawing because you are creating weaknesses to exploit rather than blunting strengths to gain incremental advantage.  Black big mana is combo oriented.  You don't really want to be playing Rituals in a control deck.  Blue however has big mana and control in Mana Drain.  But as I said, it doesn't work to well with the need for  .

BUT... if there is a big mana Black control deck I could see it working in the same fashion that Fact or Fiction worked in for Blue Control.  I just don't see that occurring in current the Vintage environment.

[Jay]

Why is everyone arguing about whether or not to play 4 of something that might make a good one of?

And what deck would this be used in that would benefit so greatly from its instant speed?  I understand the benefit of playing it then untapping, but you'd be burning your accel and with long, it would be better on your turn so you'd get storm counters off it.

And I agree that it's good to play in Angel, but not broken.  Getting the angel on the board and keeping it there long enough to come up with 3BB would win you the game, not this card.

I think some long players should play test this as a 1 of, and it might actually creep into vintage.

[Lemnear]

Obviously insane with lich's mirror, but that would be only a T2 toy....

[Webster]

Obviously insane with lich's mirror, but that would be only a T2 toy....

You cast Ad Nauseam with Lich's Mirror in play. There are 2 potential outcomes from this scenerio:

1. You reveal cards with combined casting cost greater than your life total.
You opt to not reveal any more cards.
Ad Nauseam is finished resolving and is placed in the graveyard.
State-based effects are checked.
Lich's Mirror's replacement effect makes you "shuffle your hand, your graveyard and all permanents you own into your library, then draw seven cards and your life total becomes 20." instead of losing the game.

2. You reveal cards with combined casting cost less than your life total.
You opt to not reveal any more cards.
Ad Nauseam is finished resolving and is placed in the graveyard.
State-based effects are checked.
Lich's Mirror is still in play doing nothing like normal.

Not quite so insane.

[brianpk80]

This is only slightly better than Necrologia, which isn't played at all:

Necrologia
Instant, 3BB (5)
Play Necrologia only during your end of turn step.
As an additional cost to play Necrologia, pay any amount of life.
Draw cards equal to the life paid this way.

This card limits you to seven in hand (unless you're using Spellbooks and Library of Leng?), all of which are not usable for a full turn.  AdN is infinitely better.  I don't think this is a card to just throw in combo as it exists today.  Rather, it seems to open a new mini-genre of decks.  It has a lot of potential. 

[wox2]

This is only slightly better than Necrologia, which isn't played at all:

Necrologia
Instant, 3BB (5)
Play Necrologia only during your end of turn step.
As an additional cost to play Necrologia, pay any amount of life.
Draw cards equal to the life paid this way.

This card limits you to seven in hand (unless you're using Spellbooks and Library of Leng?), all of which are not usable for a full turn.  AdN is infinitely better.  I don't think this is a card to just throw in combo as it exists today.  Rather, it seems to open a new mini-genre of decks.  It has a lot of potential. 

I was testing Ad Nauseam BR Long Deck.And I can say it is definitely brutal card. It is comparable the most to Bargain- You want to play it in first turn and WIN NOW. Bargain is one more mana expensive. The question is if you can play Bargain in four copies will you do it? I think most of Long players will consider it. When Chrome Mox is unrestricted Ad Nauseum fits into storm deck very well. I Created BR version - Blue Color was cut for Red mana.
Lands
    4  Badlands
    4 City of Brass
    2 Gemstone Mine

 Creatures
    2 Simian Spirit Guide

 Spells
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Pact of Negation
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Wheel of Fortune
    1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Ad Nauseum
    2 Duress
    4 Chrome Mox
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    3 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Necropotence
    3 Grim Tutor

[Jay]

So I goldfished wox2's deck like 8 times and finally got a 1st turn kill.  I think it would be more consistent if you used fetch lands and put some of the blue back in.  But to get an idea of how Ad Nauseum would work I played it even when I would normally play grim tutor then will just to see what it would do.  It went something like this:

Draw 7:
Grim Tutor
Mox Pearl
Rite of Flame
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Ad Nauseum
Grim Tutor

play mox pearl, play black lotus, tap + sac for BBB
play dark ritual... BBBBBW in pool
play ad nauseum with B floating:
Cabal Ritual (18 life)
Pact of Negation
Vampiric Tutor (17 life)
Yawgmoth's Will (14 life)
Badlands... and I stop there.
play badlands, tap for R to play rite of flame, play cabal ritual, RBBB floating
play yawgmoth's will with R floating, play black lotus and sac for BBB
play rite of flame, dark ritual, cabal ritual... RRBBBBBB in pool
play grim tutor (11 life) for tendrils w/ BBBBR in pool

play tendrils w/ 12 copies, mana floating and pact in hand.

With some work, I don't think this deck could ever be as consistent as the other long decks, but it could still work.

[Jay]

You don't need to run 3 tendrils... 1 or 2 is enough.  And while you like ad nauseum because it's new and it's what makes your deck different, I'm opposed to running 4 of them.  Every other time I use one, I hit one while I'm revealing my top card and lose 5 life, sometimes causing me to lose.  I suggested play testing it as a 1 of in long.  With a deck centered around it, I'd still only run 2-3 copies.  I suggested using fetch lands, and I'm sticking by that after seeing city of brass tear me up.  If you have to use mana on turn 1 and go off on turn 2, that's another life you're losing, which matters.  Running 4 chrome moxes also hurts.  In a deck like this, there's too many cards that are better than a card that makes you trade 2 cards for 1 mana.  Any hand I see with 2 chrome moxes makes me want to mulligan.  Maybe run 2-3 of those, if any.  If you'd like, I could goldfish it some more and make some adjustments, then post my version.

This also brings up a question for the typical long players... why not pact?

[Webster]

This also brings up a question for the typical long players... why not pact?

Generally, the slots that pact would go in overlap with a number of the duress cards. If you run put the pacts in slots where other cards would normally go in such as tertiary mana acceleration, tutors, and bombs, you increase the risk of getting hands that just don't do anything. In a dark ritual metagame, duress is the better card because pact is awful at stopping their good spells like ancestral recall, gifts ungiven, memory jar, mind's desire, necropotence, timetwister, tinker, wheel of fortune, yawgmoth's bargain, yawgmoth's will, and any other spells that they may be playing.

[wox2]

You don't need to run 3 tendrils... 1 or 2 is enough.  And while you like ad nauseum because it's new and it's what makes your deck different, I'm opposed to running 4 of them.  Every other time I use one, I hit one while I'm revealing my top card and lose 5 life, sometimes causing me to lose.  I suggested play testing it as a 1 of in long.  With a deck centered around it, I'd still only run 2-3 copies.  I suggested using fetch lands, and I'm sticking by that after seeing city of brass tear me up.  If you have to use mana on turn 1 and go off on turn 2, that's another life you're losing, which matters.  Running 4 chrome moxes also hurts.  In a deck like this, there's too many cards that are better than a card that makes you trade 2 cards for 1 mana.  Any hand I see with 2 chrome moxes makes me want to mulligan.  Maybe run 2-3 of those, if any.  If you'd like, I could goldfish it some more and make some adjustments, then post my version.

This also brings up a question for the typical long players... why not pact?

I was creating deck with 2 tendrils. Thn I noticed I have to find tendrils too often. If I am able to cast Ad Nauseam I want to have tendrils in it rather than Grim Tutor that needs more mana + more lifes. I have no way to find tendrils and draw them due to not including blue and Brainstorm and Ponder restriction so Imperial Seal, Mystical Tutor and Personal Tutor are not so good with Nauseam. I cannot find more better ways to find tendrils...

Your right that loosing for lifes by revealing another Nauseam is not good. But It doesn´t hurt me so much to play less of them.  I want to have enought mana to cast it but firstly I want to cast it. Multiple affect of all cards (I think Black Lotus is only card you want near each time more than once in hand but it is not possible) is bad thing. You have drawn second drain but need mana or business spells... You have drawn second Ad Nauseam and need protection or mana... But you have higher chance to have this card in opening. I created deck to test Ad Nauseam-I am not saying it is the best deck... It may needs some work. But I really like Ad Nauseum.

Chrome Mox-I heard that Chrome Mox is crappy card in TPS (with fows). I don´t like TPS and Pitchlong at all. I am fan of this card and I think you undervalue it. Two Chrome Moxes can be reason to muligan but in Ritual combo decks it works well (for me). I play 4 Chrome Mox UBR Grimlong and trying this with four Moxes. Ritual decks has too often cards they don´t need that can be pitched. With Nauseam it is very good. Maybe three can be better but I didn´t find any better mana in Black or Red color that I didn´t use. And I am satisfied with one+one more card needed black Mox or just storm + 1...

The last thing. Your right that playing City of Brass looks absurd. It probably is but It was funny to pay Pact Triggered Ability by city... 

[Troy_Costisick]

Just a thought to throw out: rather than trying to shoehorn Ad Nauseum into a Pitch Long or Grim Long deck, why not just come up with a new varient of the deck called Nauseus Long that used 3-4 AN's. 

Peace,

-Troy

PS: Maybe looking at a package of 8 Rituals, a combination of Chrom Mox/Mox Diamond (which you can play and not discard a land just to build storm), plus some blue draw/tutors or whatever to get to Tendrils.

[Mr. Type 4]

I just want to go on record saying i think this one is pretty good.  If it's not good the day it's released, then someday it will be good.  This has potential to draw a TON of cards for 5 mana, and there's something inherantly good about that.