[Premium Article] So Many MORE Insane Plays: Shards of Alara Set Review (T1 &T4)

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16479.html

Article is full of decklists, lots of tech, and much analysis.   Trying to be cutting edge and build up my readership again. 

Editor's blurb:

Monday, September 29th - Shards of Alara is packed with Vintage possibilities. In fact, Stephen Menendian believes it’s the most impacting set for Vintage since Mirrodin. With such impressive shoes to fill, can Shards of Alara live up to the hype? Read on to find out!

[desolutionist]

@ White Stax

Do you think Suppression Field is a good 4-of with 5 Strips and 3 Crucibles?  Aven Mindcensor seems better honestly.

[LotusHead]

@ White Stax

Do you think Suppression Field is a good 4-of with 5 Strips and 3 Crucibles?  Aven Mindcensor seems better honestly.

Don't have premium, but I'll take a guess:

Grindstone Tezzeret and TimeVault make Suppression Field better than totally unplayable? (plus fetchlands, top, etc)

[xycsoscyx]

My only complaint is that you're not running Ghost Quarter in the Mindlock list!    Other than that, nice read.

[Tobi]

You mentioned type 4. I have once seen some guys playing with a stack of totally overcosted cards. and think this must be quite funny.
Is there any place where I can find the rulings for this "format"?

[Smmenen]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/198

and:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34823.0

[Tobi]

Looks like this could be fun. Thanks! 


edit: I'd like to point out that Ad Nauseam, while being strong in Vintage, may not be the best pick in a type four game 

[Xyre]

@ White Stax

Do you think Suppression Field is a good 4-of with 5 Strips and 3 Crucibles?  Aven Mindcensor seems better honestly.

Don't have premium, but I'll take a guess:

Grindstone Tezzeret and TimeVault make Suppression Field better than totally unplayable? (plus fetchlands, top, etc)

Right. The nice thing about Sup. Field is that it turns off fetchlands, meaning you could very well lock your opponent out of the game on the first turn.

One alternative if you want a Suppression Field-like card that doesn't hit lands is Damping Matrix. It turns off both Goblin Welder and Time Vault, among others, and costs a single Workshop.

[desolutionist]

@ White Stax

Do you think Suppression Field is a good 4-of with 5 Strips and 3 Crucibles?  Aven Mindcensor seems better honestly.

Don't have premium, but I'll take a guess:

Grindstone Tezzeret and TimeVault make Suppression Field better than totally unplayable? (plus fetchlands, top, etc)

Right. The nice thing about Sup. Field is that it turns off fetchlands, meaning you could very well lock your opponent out of the game on the first turn.

One alternative if you want a Suppression Field-like card that doesn't hit lands is Damping Matrix. It turns off both Goblin Welder and Time Vault, among others, and costs a single Workshop.

I think Steve was going for a non-artifact denial piece to help illustrate the benefits of playing white.  Damping Matrix doesn't fit that criteria.

[Smmenen]

My only complaint is that you're not running Ghost Quarter in the Mindlock list!    Other than that, nice read.

That's only because I only ran three Mindlock Orb.   If I ran four, I'd play a couple of GQ

Tks for the complement

[desolutionist]

I saw that you and Chapin have similar positions on Ad Nasuseam.

Here's what I posted in his feedback thread:

I disagree with what you said about Ad Nauseam for the following reasons:

It has too high of a mana cost.  You'll need a combination of 3 mana sources in addition to a Dark Ritual or 2 Dark Rituals.  This already makes it the 3rd most difficult "bomb" to cast in your deck.  And you want to play MULTIPLES?  It won't work the way you think.

It doesn't do enough.  How many cards do you plan on drawing off it? 5-6?  Most of the time, with a Bargain, you have to draw at least double that before you can win.  You'll lose life quickly with Force of Wills, Misdirections, Nasuseams, Desire, Bargain, Tendrils/EtW, and your other 3cc bomb spells.  It clashes with Necro, Grim Tutor, Vamp, and Bargain, making the deck worse overall.  (similar to how Street Wraith effects GL)

If it gets restricted, it will only be because you both said it should.

[Smmenen]

I saw that you and Chapin have similar positions on Ad Nasuseam.

Here's what I posted in his feedback thread:

I disagree with what you said about Ad Nauseam for the following reasons:

It has too high of a mana cost.  You'll need a combination of 3 mana sources in addition to a Dark Ritual or 2 Dark Rituals.  This already makes it the 3rd most difficult "bomb" to cast in your deck.  And you want to play MULTIPLES?  It won't work the way you think.

It doesn't do enough.  How many cards do you plan on drawing off it? 5-6?  Most of the time, with a Bargain, you have to draw at least double that before you can win.  You'll lose life quickly with Force of Wills, Misdirections, Nasuseams, Desire, Bargain, Tendrils/EtW, and your other 3cc bomb spells.  It clashes with Necro, Grim Tutor, Vamp, and Bargain, making the deck worse overall.  (similar to how Street Wraith effects GL)

If it gets restricted, it will only be because you both said it should.

If my goal was to persuade you, I would contest both of your points (I think both of your points are wrong, after all).  But it's not.  I don't want to persuade you

I will just say that if you are building an Ad Nauseum deck with the cards you just mentioned, it's clearly a bad card.   Just for starters, there is now way you can play Misdirection and Ad Nausem in the same deck.   

[xycsoscyx]

That's only because I only ran three Mindlock Orb.   If I ran four, I'd play a couple of GQ

Would you really only run Ghost Quarter if you ran a full set of Orbs?  Ghost Quarter is still potentially good by itself (it forces decks into mono-blue typically), and adding Mindlock Orb to the equation just makes it so much better.

[Smmenen]

That's only because I only ran three Mindlock Orb.   If I ran four, I'd play a couple of GQ

Would you really only run Ghost Quarter if you ran a full set of Orbs?  Ghost Quarter is still potentially good by itself (it forces decks into mono-blue typically), and adding Mindlock Orb to the equation just makes it so much better.

To be honest: I don't know.

My suspicion is that it is not.  It's pretty card disadvantageous to Quarter someone.  I lose a card, they don't lose anything so long as they have a basic land in their deck, which is likely. 

When Mindlock Orb was spoiled at 4cc and colorless only, I was already brainstoming a MUD list with 4 Ghost Quarter since you have a very good chance at being able to play a turn 1-3 M. Orb and then use quarter.  However, I don't think Quarter can possibly be good enough since M Orb has blue in the mana cost, both since that will likely crowd out G. Quarter from any potential design shell and because that makes M. orb a slower play. 

[Troy_Costisick]

When Mindlock Orb was spoiled at 4cc and colorless only, I was already brainstoming a MUD list with 4 Ghost Quarter since you have a very good chance at being able to play a turn 1-3 M. Orb and then use quarter.  However, I don't think Quarter can possibly be good enough since M Orb has blue in the mana cost, both since that will likely crowd out G. Quarter from any potential design shell and because that makes M. orb a slower play.

Yeah, it was such a kick in the nuts to learn that this had blue in the casting cost.  That alone took the card from a new staple to something that might potentiall be part of a new archetype, but not definately.  When thinking about getting an extra blue mana turn 1, it's really hard to come up with any un-restricted cards that don't cost you some kind of card advantage to do so.  M. Orb is a good card, but it's going to be more difficult to design decks with it than we originally thought

[desolutionist]

I saw that you and Chapin have similar positions on Ad Nasuseam.

Here's what I posted in his feedback thread:

I disagree with what you said about Ad Nauseam for the following reasons:

It has too high of a mana cost.  You'll need a combination of 3 mana sources in addition to a Dark Ritual or 2 Dark Rituals.  This already makes it the 3rd most difficult "bomb" to cast in your deck.  And you want to play MULTIPLES?  It won't work the way you think.

It doesn't do enough.  How many cards do you plan on drawing off it? 5-6?  Most of the time, with a Bargain, you have to draw at least double that before you can win.  You'll lose life quickly with Force of Wills, Misdirections, Nasuseams, Desire, Bargain, Tendrils/EtW, and your other 3cc bomb spells.  It clashes with Necro, Grim Tutor, Vamp, and Bargain, making the deck worse overall.  (similar to how Street Wraith effects GL)

If it gets restricted, it will only be because you both said it should.

If my goal was to persuade you, I would contest both of your points (I think both of your points are wrong, after all).  But it's not.  I don't want to persuade you

You're going to consider it's restriction and not tell anyone why?

I will just say that if you are building an Ad Nauseum deck with the cards you just mentioned, it's clearly a bad card.   Just for starters, there is now way you can play Misdirection and Ad Nausem in the same deck.  

The Ad Nausem deck in your article looks incredibly weak mostly because of no Force of Will.  It reminds me of the Null Profusion Grim Long decks people were trying a few months ago.  Easily tier 2, but won't be winning any tournaments. (which you somewhat mentioned)  Do you have any real test data?

[Smmenen]

I saw that you and Chapin have similar positions on Ad Nasuseam.

Here's what I posted in his feedback thread:

I disagree with what you said about Ad Nauseam for the following reasons:

It has too high of a mana cost.  You'll need a combination of 3 mana sources in addition to a Dark Ritual or 2 Dark Rituals.  This already makes it the 3rd most difficult "bomb" to cast in your deck.  And you want to play MULTIPLES?  It won't work the way you think.

It doesn't do enough.  How many cards do you plan on drawing off it? 5-6?  Most of the time, with a Bargain, you have to draw at least double that before you can win.  You'll lose life quickly with Force of Wills, Misdirections, Nasuseams, Desire, Bargain, Tendrils/EtW, and your other 3cc bomb spells.  It clashes with Necro, Grim Tutor, Vamp, and Bargain, making the deck worse overall.  (similar to how Street Wraith effects GL)

If it gets restricted, it will only be because you both said it should.

If my goal was to persuade you, I would contest both of your points (I think both of your points are wrong, after all).  But it's not.  I don't want to persuade you

You're going to consider it's restriction and not tell anyone why?

Don't confuse what I said with what Chapin said.   

[Mr. Type 4]

You're going to consider it's restriction and not tell anyone why?

I have't seen Steve advocate the restriction of anything in forever.  I'm trying to remember a time when he was an advocate of restriction... ... ... none come to mind.  Menendian is the ultimate advocate for UN-restriction. 

[brianpk80]

Ad Nauseam is insane in a deck designed to abuse it.  I'm thinking something along the lines of Belcher or Meandeck Tendrils.  Keep in mind that Tendrils of Agony itself grants its caster life, which could theoretically fuel a cycle of Nauseams and so called "mini-Tendrils."  Anything that could draw you 10-15 cards in the right shell at instant speed is very dangerous for Vintage.  It's not surprising there would be very legitimate (though yet unwritten) "official" reasons for wanting it restricted.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Belcher will be better without Ad Nauseam.  Belcher costs four, Empty the Warrens costs four, Tendrils costs four, Spirit Guides are three, and those are all things you want more than one of.  There's definitely a place for Ad Nauseam in combo, but I think it will be storm-based rather than Belcher.  Meandeck Tendrils would be hard to Ad Nauseate simply because if you get to five mana, you've probably already got storm enough to play Tendrils and win anyway.  I think that's closer than Belcher, though.

[zeus-online]

I doubt ad nauseam will make a breakthrough....You can play 8 infernal contracts if you want to, and those are probably better since they only cost  .

I think tezzeret could make a breakthrough, but i'm not sure if he's all that much better then current win conditions,  is rather expensive.

Mindlock orb looks very annoying, fortunetly it costs  , so atleast the first land should be pretty safe.

/Zeus

[andrewpate]

You're going to consider it's restriction and not tell anyone why?

I have't seen Steve advocate the restriction of anything in forever.  I'm trying to remember a time when he was an advocate of restriction... ... ... none come to mind.  Menendian is the ultimate advocate for UN-restriction. 

There was that time he advocated BANNING a certain card, I forget what.

[LordHomerCat]

You're going to consider it's restriction and not tell anyone why?

I have't seen Steve advocate the restriction of anything in forever.  I'm trying to remember a time when he was an advocate of restriction... ... ... none come to mind.  Menendian is the ultimate advocate for UN-restriction. 

There was that time he advocated BANNING a certain card, I forget what.

I dunno about 'advocated', but he suggested Banning Will would make Type 1 actually diverse instead of Will vs. Anti-Will.

[andrewpate]

You're going to consider it's restriction and not tell anyone why?

I have't seen Steve advocate the restriction of anything in forever.  I'm trying to remember a time when he was an advocate of restriction... ... ... none come to mind.  Menendian is the ultimate advocate for UN-restriction. 

There was that time he advocated BANNING a certain card, I forget what.

I dunno about 'advocated', but he suggested Banning Will would make Type 1 actually diverse instead of Will vs. Anti-Will.

Don't get me wrong, really, really not trying to afflict this thread with that cancerous debate.

@zeus-online
is not really that bad.  It's only one more than Tendrils of Agony (which control decks such as Drain Tendrils currently have no trouble casting) and it's in your main color (mo' like your drain color amirite?) instead of black, which helps.  If the card isn't nuts, it's not the cost, it's the fact that you have to pass the turn in order to win, giving them time to attack, burn him out, bounce him, etc. before you go off.  I still think he's pretty damn good, though.

[brianpk80]

I doubt ad nauseam will make a breakthrough....You can play 8 infernal contracts if you want to, and those are probably better since they only cost  .
/Zeus

There's a big difference between drawing four cards and drawing the amount of cards a well honed deck's Ad Nauseam can yield.  Infernal Contracts are sorceries while AN is an instant.  Those are two major distinctions that should give anyone pause in believing Infernal Contracts are superior.    

[TK]

Nice article Steve, I tend to agree with you assessment of the majority of the cards mentioned, but I think you greatly underestimate the playability of Relic of Progenitus. Sure this card is not an auto replacement for tormods crypt in some decks, but i believe that it should replace tormods in many fish, shop, and non will based control decks. In a few months when the set has seen a decent amount of tournament play i expect Relic of Progenitus  to see play in very high numbers.

[Smmenen]

Thanks Tommy.  Good point there about Relic. 

[zeus-online]

I doubt ad nauseam will make a breakthrough....You can play 8 infernal contracts if you want to, and those are probably better since they only cost  .
/Zeus

There's a big difference between drawing four cards and drawing the amount of cards a well honed deck's Ad Nauseam can yield.  Infernal Contracts are sorceries while AN is an instant.  Those are two major distinctions that should give anyone pause in believing Infernal Contracts are superior.    

I will not buy the instant argument, since this will probably be in a combo deck, and you are much more likely to want to do this main phase. Also, you're going to need alot more acceleration to get the ad nauseam out, while dark ritual, infernal contract is so much easier, and often leads to a kill.
Anyway it's all been said before, and everything has already been discussed. Feel free to attempt to break the card, i just don't see it.

@zeus-online
is not really that bad.  It's only one more than Tendrils of Agony (which control decks such as Drain Tendrils currently have no trouble casting) and it's in your main color (mo' like your drain color amirite?) instead of black, which helps.  If the card isn't nuts, it's not the cost, it's the fact that you have to pass the turn in order to win, giving them time to attack, burn him out, bounce him, etc. before you go off.  I still think he's pretty damn good, though.

I'm not saying it's bad, i'm questioning if it's better
If it's equally good, that means it's nuts! This is vintage, anything that is equally good as vintage playable cards are insane. Especially when it comes to win-conditions.

/Zeus

[Duncan]

I will not buy the instant argument, since this will probably be in a combo deck, and you are much more likely to want to do this main phase. Also, you're going to need alot more acceleration to get the ad nauseam out, while dark ritual, infernal contract is so much easier, and often leads to a kill.
Anyway it's all been said before, and everything has already been discussed. Feel free to attempt to break the card, i just don't see it.

The instant part is insane. You can go something like:
t1 land duress,
t2 land mox go
end of opponents turn: ritual Ad Nauseam -> draw like 10 cards

Untap for the win with around 14 cards.

Because of the instant part you can ignore the discard phase.

[BC]

Being instant is just better, obviously.  I think this is especially important in Legacy, where LED is unrestricted.  You can get Ad Nauseam on top of your library with Brainstorm or Top, then in your upkeep activate LED, float mana into the draw step, play Ad Nauseam, draw 14 cards.