Type 4 Created Cards Proxies

[kuberr]

A few proxies that I made for our Type 4 Stack.  RGLT and Decree are from Smmenen / Carl Winters articles and I assume designed by them or Paul.  Three Islands is something I've heard people talk about (not my idea, but I dont know who to give credit for it).  White Queen is my first attempt at a Type 4 playable Planeswalker.

These are my first attempts, and I'm still working on the picture quality. 
Known issues: Decree has wrong cycle cost, and flavor is not italicized.
White Queen loyalty increase/decrease boxes are incorrect. Border needs to be cleaned up.
Three Islands My wording sucks, any suggestions?

Are there any other made up cards that you would suggest for a powerful Type 4 Stack?

[Smmenen]

Wow, those are sweet.

I'll have to scan my Tolarian Scrubbery for all to see. 

[VikingMetal4L]

I'm trying to figure out what Three Islands *does* beyond cantripping.  Makes Eternal Dragon a little bit better?  Plays Swords to Plowshares for free (if you play with that ACC rule)?  Does it sacrifice infinitely to something along the lines of Zuran Orb?

You must play with some strange rules if you need to specify that playing a land doesn't count as playing a spell.

Q

[kuberr]

the idea is that you can use it to pay the alternate cost on thwart.  in order to make it not completely suck if you don't have thwart, we made it a free cantrip. (my original wording was really bad, I think the new one is better)

As for the land for turn counting as a spell, is that not the normal rule?  We just recently got into Type 4, and we couldn't decide what the rule should be.  We are currently using Maze of Ith, Urza's Factory, Academy Ruins, Boseiju, Prahv, and Winding Canyons.

is the general rule to let these not count towards your spell for turn?

Here are the digital versions of the cards with updated text and minor fixes.  I think I have a better way to print them, and I'll post them soon (hopefully).

[Nefarias]

Yeah, I think it's universal that a land doesn't count towards your spell for the turn, so that last line of Three Islands is unnecessary.

Also, on the first ability of White Queen, the second sentence should be in regular font, not italicized. Reminder text just reminds you of a rule that's in existence, it doesn't create rules itself. Since there is no rule on the books about frost counters (to my knowledge), the ability needs to set what frost counters do, not "remind" you what they do.

We have a few custom cards as well, one for each person in the playgroup. Here's the only one I have a scan of: http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b359/TheBrassMan/Type%20Four%20Cards/LarbacsTrickery.jpg?t=1197315762

[kuberr]

Yeah, I think it's universal that a land doesn't count towards your spell for the turn, so that last line of Three Islands is unnecessary.

Thanks for the info

Also, on the first ability of White Queen, the second sentence should be in regular font, not italicized. Reminder text just reminds you of a rule that's in existence, it doesn't create rules itself. Since there is no rule on the books about frost counters (to my knowledge), the ability needs to set what frost counters do, not "remind" you what they do.

Thanks again.


I also really like the idea of custom cards for each member of the playgroup.  Maybe I'll have everyone design they're own planeswalker.  Thanks yet again for the idea.

[Anusien]

There are pictures of Paul Mastriano without tons of chest hair?

Why does Three Islands not ever leave play?  It seems fine to me to let it be destroyed or bounced.
And by the way, if you play with Three Islands, you need to errata Thwart to say "a card named Three Islands you control".  Just saying.  And it seems fine to let it make Thwart cantrip?

[kuberr]

The new wording on Three Islands, as shown on the digital version allows it to be bounced, but not destroyed.

Part of the reason I posted it, as I said in my original post, is that my wording sucks.

I like having alternate casting cost counterspells, and thats the reason for having it be somewhat invincible (the new wording allows it to be removed from game).  I'd rather it not be a completely dead card if you don't draw Thwart (hence the cantrip).

Part of the problem is that we have been counting lands as a spell for turn, which gave me even more reason to make the card do something other than play nice with Thwart.  Even if we change that rule, I'd still rather not draw a blank card.

I'd love to hear people's suggestions on how to word this card.

The picture of Paul is from MTG.com, and its really small and awful quality.  If someone knows where I can find a better one let me know.

[Wagner]

Part of the problem is that we have been counting lands as a spell for turn,

Are you able to counter lands when they are played?

Also, I don't know how big your stack is, but how often to you get to have both Thwart and Three Islands in your deck? I can't imagine it is more than 1/8 of the games you play, and then you need to draw both for Three Islands to be better than a bad cycling card. Also, how do you draft? Without Thwart, Three Islands would seem a last pick every single time.

I'd love to hear people's suggestions on how to word this card.

This wording on Three Island would work

If Three Islands is in play, you may return it to your hand instead's of paying Thwart's mana cost.

[kuberr]

Part of the problem is that we have been counting lands as a spell for turn,

Are you able to counter lands when they are played?

Couldn't find a set of rules on Type 4 anywhere.  We just started playing recently.  We were being conservative, and decided to count them as a spell.  I apologize for my ignorance. I won't ever do it again. 

Stack is 360 ish cards.  We rochester.  You can technically cycle Eternal Dragon to find Three Islands (although this doesn't greatly increase your chance of finding it).  I'm also not sure how it could be a BAD cycling card.  Since it doesn't count as your spell for turn, you simply play it and then draw the next card in your library.  It's as if the only effect was thinning your deck by 1.  It certainly isn't hurting you in any way.  If we decide to make playing a land not your spell for turn (which i will suggest as that appears to be the consensus) I will make the last line of text make it a blue card, and therefore pitchable to Force of Will.

[kuberr]

Potential new wording:
When Three Islands comes into play, draw a card.

If Three Islands is in play, you may return it to your hand instead's of paying Thwart's mana cost.

Three Islands is blue.

[Wagner]

I'm also not sure how it could be a BAD cycling card

Because cycling cards can be cycled as an instant. If you draw this card in a draw spell, you have to wait until your next turn to play it and draw instead of just cycling right away and possibly keep doing business spells in opponents' turns.

[kuberr]

So, are you suggesting that the card should just be removed from the stack all together?

[Wagner]

So, are you suggesting that the card should just be removed from the stack all together?

That's what I would do. For it to be useful you need to:

1. Have the two cards in your draft pile (the 360 cards are rarely all drafted)
2. Draft Thwart first or have received Three Islands as a last pick
3. Draft the second card, if no one takes it before you or if there is nothing better than it to take (unlikely)
4. Draw the two in the same game, drawing Three Island before Thwart
5. Have already played a spell that turn

If all these conditions are met, Thwart can become a Decree of Silence that will only make you draw at your next main phase.

No saying it would never happen, but it seems like a lot of trouble for very very little potential. It's a two card combo, one of which is useless alone, that if put together gets you a free counterspell and a card later.

[kuberr]

Thanks for the input.  It is certainly possible that it's trying to be just a little too cute.  I'll see what the rest of my group has to say.

There is however something about seeing it/having it in play, that makes people think a little harder about their next play.  There is some comfort in knowing that someone/everyone has already played their spell for turn, and if Three Islands is in play that goes away (partially at least).

Making it pitchable to Force of Will gives it some additional value as well.

Ultimately its usually a last pick.  Then again you might also "live the dream" and end up with Three Islands, Decree of the Creator, Thwart, and Eternal Dragon (not really living the dream, but not awful either).  Being able to play Thwart and Force on the same turn with Three Islands is kinda sexy too.  It's a fun card that isn't very useful most of the time, and therefore will probably piss off enough people to get it removed.

Honestly I was expecting this forum to turn into people picking apart the one card that I actually created. Oh well.  Thanks to everyone so far, for all of the input.

[Wagner]

Well, you presented cards and asked for feedback.

I simply told you why I wouldn't play it. It doesn't mean that it can't be fun and that you shouldn't play it.

To me, any card that is going to be a last pick in over 90% of the drafts does not have a place in a T4 stack.


Oh, The Queen is very nice btw, but I would probably put an untap clause on her second ability tought.

[Mr. Type 4]

If I were making a Planeswalker for Type 4, I'd make it start with lots of Loyalty counters and then make the abilities just add or subtract more counters.  I just think it's awfully lame for my Planeswalker to just get killed really fast before it can do anything cool.  As it stands this Planeswalker will take 2 turns to get it's Ultimate Ability, which will probably be just too long. It will be a lot cooler if it actually gets to work!

Three Islands can count as 1 to 3 islands, right?  maybe you should say that explicitly on the card, just so it's clear that I can use it to make my Thwart free or entwine my Betrayal of Flesh. 

I'll send you the art I have for Decree of the Creator.

[kuberr]

Well, you presented cards and asked for feedback.

I simply told you why I wouldn't play it. It doesn't mean that it can't be fun and that you shouldn't play it.

sorry if it came off like i was being unappreciative.  I'm still a rookie to type 4 and any advice is greatly appreciated.

Your absolutely right about the untap part of the second ability, thanks!

If I were making a Planeswalker for Type 4, I'd make it start with lots of Loyalty counters and then make the abilities just add or subtract more counters.  I just think it's awfully lame for my Planeswalker to just get killed really fast before it can do anything cool.  As it stands this Planeswalker will take 2 turns to get its Ultimate Ability, which will probably be just too long. It will be a lot cooler if it actually gets to work!

Three Islands can count as 1 to 3 islands, right?  maybe you should say that explicitly on the card, just so it's clear that I can use it to make my Thwart free or entwine my Betrayal of Flesh.

Thanks so much for the input.  Do you think the Planeswalker would be playable at Loyalty 30, +10, -8, -32? I honestly have no clue.  The first ability will probably ice the biggest creature in play that you cant block, and then it could still take 8 damage and play its ultimate.  Since the starting loyalty has to be less than the ultimate, the first + to loyalty is the most important number.  The question is how much damage should you be able to soak up, and still play the ultimate?

How's this for Three Islands?


It now plays well with FoW, Thwart, Betrayal of Flesh, Wild Mongrel, and you can pay 2 life to draw a card.  Too good? Still not good enough? Is there any benefit to making it count for 1 to 3 islands, or is just 3 Islands ok?

[kuberr]

i guess the planeswalker's starting loyalty could be higher than its ultimate.  Maybe something like starting 20, +4, -4, -18.  That would ensure that you get it's ultimate ability, if it hits play.

It might need to be:

 -18 : destroy all other permanents in play.

[Mr. Type 4]

i think that sticking to the rule that the Ultimate ability costs more than the starting loyalty is a good rule, but really you can do whatever, who cares.  I dont think that your card, in particular, has to be able to use the ultimate on the first turn BUT for any other homebrew Planeswalkers it might be fine for the ultimate to be equal to the starting loyalty. 

3 islands is dramatically more powerful now.  The cycling thing might not work as you want it to  - as it stands I can cycle this as many times as I want during my upkeep (for 2 life each, of course). Is that what you intended?
You can word it as a trigger instead if you dont want it to be that powerful :

"At the beginning of your upkeep if three islands is in your graveyard you may return it to your hand"

[kuberr]

3 islands is dramatically more powerful now.  The cycling thing might not work as you want it to  - as it stands I can cycle this as many times as I want during my upkeep (for 2 life each, of course). Is that what you intended?

Yeah.  I was attempting to make it a good card all on its own.  I was trying to address Wagner's concern that if its always going to be a last pick, then why bother.  I think he's right, and I thought this would make the card good on its own, and really good when you actually got to use it to enhance another spell.

Too good?  If this was in your stack, as currently worded, would it be a high pick?

I think the idea of making Starting = Ultimate is a really good idea. That makes it a sorcery when you really need it, and something even better when you're in a position to defend it.

Thanks for your input.

[Mr. Type 4]

Too good?  If this was in your stack, as currently worded, would it be a high pick?

at 2 life it's probably fair.  We cut Yawgmoth's Bargain for being not good enough, but it's a big difference when the card doesn't count as your spell for the turn.  it would probably be a decently high pick, maybe like 4th or 5th in a pack of 15.

[VikingMetal4L]

If you allow Three Islands to tap for UUU or W (or maybe even WUU or WUUU, you'd have to decide on something), and play with an ACC rule that lets you play extra spells for the turn if you didn't use any type 4 mana for them, I could actually see Three Islands being powerful enough without the cycling/recursion.  My playgroup does use this rule and runs dedicated mana producers like Crystal Quarry and Skyshroud Elf, both of which are pretty high picks.  Anyway, under such a rule, Three Islands would let you play most of the 2-3 mana counterspells for free (even 4-mana cspells if you allow for WUUU silliness), not to mention morphs and some of the wizards and small artifacts.  As a comparison, my group runs both Dreadship Reef and Calciform pools for the purpose of powering out counterspells, which are a little bit weak and which don't cantrip, but tend to get picked before the big dumb creatures.

I also love Mastriano's suggestion of entwining Betrayal of Flesh off this.

Yet my group is full of a bunch of sticklers for Rules That Work, and it looks pretty tough to template the card in such a way as to make all its cool interactions work without covering each one as a separate case.

Q

[kuberr]

Too good?  If this was in your stack, as currently worded, would it be a high pick?

at 2 life it's probably fair.  We cut Yawgmoth's Bargain for being not good enough, but it's a big difference when the card doesn't count as your spell for the turn.  it would probably be a decently high pick, maybe like 4th or 5th in a pack of 15.

That's pretty much what i was aiming for (not an insane 1st pick, but still a good card).  I think we'll just put it in as is, and test it out.  Thanks.

If you allow Three Islands to tap for UUU or W (or maybe even WUU or WUUU, you'd have to decide on something), and play with an ACC rule that lets you play extra spells for the turn if you didn't use any type 4 mana for them, I could actually see Three Islands being powerful enough without the cycling/recursion.  My playgroup does use this rule and runs dedicated mana producers like Crystal Quarry and Skyshroud Elf, both of which are pretty high picks.  Anyway, under such a rule, Three Islands would let you play most of the 2-3 mana counterspells for free (even 4-mana cspells if you allow for WUUU silliness), not to mention morphs and some of the wizards and small artifacts.  As a comparison, my group runs both Dreadship Reef and Calciform pools for the purpose of powering out counterspells, which are a little bit weak and which don't cantrip, but tend to get picked before the big dumb creatures.

I'm still learning as I go.  We've never played with such a rule.  Sounds like a really interesting idea though.  I love counterspells, and anything that makes them better is good in my book.  If my group decides that we should adopt that rule then I might change the second line of text to state:
Three Islands is blue, counts as three Islands, and can tap for UUU.

Island is clearly the best card in Magic so Three Islands should be stupid good, right?

thanks everyone for your input.

[RitNecroWin]

Hello all, long time lurker, first time poster here...

Paul or "Mr Type Four" is a good friend and teammate. We have been playing off Pauls stack since, well the beginning. In fact, in an earlier article about T4,  believe I'm mentioned...

Anywho.. I came up with a version of three Islands or as I called it, archipelago. It made the stack for a bit. Kevin Kron, a fellow Meandecker gets credit for three islands.

Archipelago
counts as either 1,2 or 3 islands

Archipelago comes into play with two counters

Tap: Remove a counter, draw a card.. when there are 0 counters... bury Archipelago.

This was made for a number of reasons: First being Betrayal of Flesh of course. I would always get frustrated that we couldn't entwine it. Next was Thwart. Under our rules, alternate casting cost doesn't count as your spell. This makes Thwart a lot better. Also, I wanted to be able to do the alternate on Foil. In my stack I had Gush, which this worked so well with Gush.. Draw MAD cards!

[Mr. Type 4]

yeah, Kevin made a "three islands" card for sure! I think he also made 3 mountains, 3 forests 3 swamps etc etc.  They played a lot of type 4 in Texas and making up cards keeps it from getting old.  The "card that counts as islands" is one that's been kicked around for years.  This one is unique in that it also counts as a blue card.  That's def new.

[RitNecroWin]

Maybe if we ask nicely, Paul might post:
Jacowned
Terraform
Dots
and few others that have been in and out of the stack...

[kuberr]

Maybe if we ask nicely, Paul might post:
Jacowned
Terraform
Dots
and few others that have been in and out of the stack...

Jacowned and Terraform i've seen, but I'd be really interested to see what other kinds of cards you guys have come up with.

Please?

I'm quickly becoming obsessed with this format.  Thanks to everyone who developed / wrote about it.

[RitNecroWin]

Terraform was mine
Jacowned was Jacob Orloves...

Paul allowed each of the regulars tht play his stack to create a card...
There is an Epic spell; it wasn't to spicy...
Dots has been around for ever.. I can't remeber how it worked; Paul will have to field that one as well...
There was also Psychomancer, he was a creature with flash that could copy any spell in any graveyard...

[Mr. Type 4]

Psychomancer could be any card in an opponent's graveyard.  Of course that stipulation didnt stop it from being the best card in the stack.  I cut it because I felt guilty for picking it all the time - people didnt know what it did and didnt bother reading it a lot of times (with the exception of my regular players from home, of course. i cut a lot of home-made cards for this reason).  It was really broken to copy someone's buyback spell or if you had Genesis. 

My favorite Psychomancer play was when my friend Spelljacked it, then comitted to never play it again so I couldn't get it back.  Of course he gave in and played it at some point, so I Remanded it back to my hand!