Aggro & Control, the real meaning: Mr. Gaddock

[Guli]

In 2007 i posted the aggro/control deck 'Mr. Gaddock goes trio'. That version is outdated and can be tuned into something better. The meta changed and there are new utility creatures available for the fish archetype. Most fish are designed to play the mana denial game so they can indirectly stop the opponent from comboing out or controling the game with a couple of counters while oath is up. My design is represents a different approach. The entire game plan is not disrupting their mana base or countering their spells but simply to lock them meaning that they can not play the card in their hand even if they had the mana. I think this is a more direct approach to the problem. This is what a control deck does. Prevents the opponent from casting there spells. However the control player needs to be aggressive at the same time but this is not possible when you have a force/drain/misd in your hand. What I am opting for is to play cards that are aggressive (Body) and stops their win conditions and removal (bounce). There is also the element of speed. My translation of speed in terms of Vintage is that the bear you cast should have an immediate effect on the game.

There are certain problems with this strategy. This strategy means that you are relying entirely on your creatures to control the game. So if you somehow lose too many of them you will have a difficult time controlling the rest of the game. If i reformulate the last sentence in practical language it means that you want to keep your creatures alive. This has to be done in the same style as the rest of the strategy, the creatures must protect one another making spot removal useless.

I will not post a list just yet. I will slowly add cards in this text explaining them one by one and the synergy they have with each other. There is no 'best' fish creature because the term 'best' is relative. But there are creatures that come close to being 'the best'. Still they have to fit in the deck and add to the game plan. In my approach Meddling mage is what someone might call 'the best'. He does exactly what the deck stands for. If you want to explain this deck just read the card. The thing is on its own he is not enough to seal the game. He is actually more of a support unit when playing the deck. He slows down by naming 'Dark Ritual' while the rest of your squad comes in to close the window once and for all. Or he jumps into the battle field and says 'Chain of Vapor' to say NO to the only removal card left in the opponents deck. To explain this example i will bring the cousin, Gaddock Teeg. I know some people use Chain of Vapor and Repeal for spot removal besides their function as storm accelerators. Well Gaddock stops repeal and Mage stops Chain of Vapor. This is a very hard lock to break for storm players. I used this specific example because it clarifies what i meant with protecting each other while controlling the game and being able to pound away a little life points. There are still some cards that need special attention, as in lethal threats, i will talk about them as the article progresses.

I do not want to skip the part that says what cards Gaddock Teeg stops, however this has been pointed out a number of times already. When it comes to meddling mage, that is a different fairy tale. If you are looking for a blame in how hard it is to play this deck then it is Meddling mage. In other words it is yourself, the pilot. Being able to tell a numerous things out of 1 fetch land is skill. You simply have to know every deck out there in the details. How many and which bounce/removal they run more specifically.

This deck is only interested in creatures that can use their abilities right when they resolve. However this is not absolute. If there is a hard match up and you know it, an exception can be made. With gaddock and mage you already have very good counter play but it is not enough. We need more to scare a storm player, to force him in the defensive, make him look for multiple solutions. It is getting clear that this deck is designed to utterly annihilate any deck based on storm count. Welcome to the squad Ethersworn Canonist. With this beauty on the team those dark rituals don't look so scary anymore. It is functionally a walking Arcane Laboratory.

The last card of the quattro is the one who will get the most critics, myself included. The idea behind is that you can't rely on counter magic to protect your creatures. Force of Will is actually one of the cards this deck wants to stop (make it dead in hand). And mana drain is not really impressive in this deck. Force of Will could be fit in if you don't mind a little anti synergy. But it is not a 'must do' card. The problem with counter magic is that it sits passively in your hand waiting for a duress to get snapped out of your hand followed by a bounce. You want a permanent solution to the opponents solution. Indirectly you are making his answer a dead card. And if he can not answer the problem his entire deck becomes a dead pile. This logic would only work if you are protecting a card like TeeG, Mage or Canonist. And since we are doing exactly that i am using Sylvan Safekeeper at the time being.

I covered the main creature base. Well they function more like preventive counters than simply creatures. Now because it is so important to get them into play, were they will do their job just fine, we need to find ways to force them into play. One way this deck does this is my sheer numbers. There are more creatures coming! But that only works with a decent draw engine to get reinforcements. That is why Æther Vial is used as a counter and mana fixer. Vial also moves around a chalice@2. Most important vial gives your creatures the flash and can not be countered ability. The problem with vial is that Null Rod is no longer an option. This deck is not about mana denial agreed, but right now with all those time vault and grindstone decks in the meta i would not mind a Null Rod in my hand. At the end this deck needs the vials for sure. The Null Rod can be replaced with something else.

Orim's Chant is another very important multi functional card that gains tempo. It is nice to start with land/vial and on turn 2 you can get Chant them during their upkeep. Your vial will get critical count (2) the next turn and they can't really stop it. That is why the vial attracts attention. They want to use their counters or bounce to stop the vial. And the marvelous thing about it is that it absolutely changes NOTHING. The vial did what it was build to do, burn up their solutions. Now their are issues with land/vial. You might not get your turn 2. You could try Force of Will and/or Daze to stop this but i learned that even that is not enough most of the times they have counter backup. So i accepted the turn 1 kill. That makes my life a lot easier as a fish player! So i oriented the strength of this deck to turns 2, 3 and 4.

Before I go on explaining the depths, I think it is time to give a more structured version of the cards in question until now. Just to summarize a bit.

4x Meddling Mage
4x Gaddock Teeg
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Sylvan Safekeeper

4x Orim's Chant
4x Æther Vial

Obvious cards are

1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall

All right that is a total of 26 cards. I said to myself that to use as much creatures as possible. I reserved 6 additional slots for creatures. It is clear that the main creature is designed to cripple combo and control. But at the same time don't forget these are all creatures. This means that in the aggro match up the numbers will be helpful as well. Still the deck needs more creature control. The more concrete problem is actually a fatty like Tarmogoyf or Jötun Grunt. I could use those myself to create a clock and it would work out in most cases but that is not solving the problem of creature control. You can either oppose a fatty with your own fatty or go tho the cause of the problem, the card at the other side of the board. I created 3 characteristics when choosing a card for this deck. Again its not absolute but i try to hold myself to these criteria: It is preferably a creature with and immediate effect that makes the opponents card useless.
If we implement these criteria in the given situation. For example an oath player managed to resolve Oath of Druids and we have a Akroma, Angel of Wrath. I could use Swords to Plowshares to get rid of it but that only would fit for 2/3 in my criteria, and there is no guarantee that my STP resolves. Don't get me wrong, i think STP is a great card. Though the life points the opponent gets will buy him another turn to oath again and this time i don't have a solution anymore. To meet the criteria completely you need to turn the table especially in a hard situation like that. You most likely have a more than one main base creature up. The best way to solve this case is to steal the Akroma with Sower of Temptation. This is a creature with an immediate effect that completely renders the Akroma useless to your oppent AND does even more than that. Sower will improve your aggro match up drasticly. Why run a tarmogoyf when there are plenty of them to steal. Now it is not always that simple of course. It would be prudent to have a Sylvan Safekeeper up when you vial in a Sower of Temptation. You can run additional STP if you have a aggro heavy meta game. Sower is useless against combo thought. But that is all right, If nothing he will swing for 2. If it was Control Magic you could say it was a completely dead card but Sower can always be used to attack obviously.

Shop, prison, generally decks that utilize artifact more heavily than the rest of the meta could be a problem. Chalice@1 followed by Chalice@2 spells game over. The vials can help to get your creatures in but your creatures are not designed to fight of a long game against smokestacks and wires. Spheres can be a problem. Grindstone, time vault,... The deck needs an artifact sniper. Right now the deck runs Trygon Predator. The problem is not solved though. He costs 3 mana and that can be a bit too much and too late. Thought when he drops turn 2 it usually is game over. So it should be about even in that sense. Suggestions are welcome. I like the predator but he does not really meet the criteria and is more a harsh way to deal with a weakness in the deck. Kataki, War's Wage is also an option but he doesn't really remove the problem either.

3x Sower of Temptation
3x Trygon Predator

Creatures go in and out continuously to test and perfect the deck. For example Cursecatcher is interesting. Not really a creature that stays around until mid game but still strong in the early turns. Doesn't seem like a good addition to this deck though. There is no mana denial strategy so how effective will Cursecatcher be? Azorius Guildmage is also very interesting to stop those activated abilities like grindstone and timevault. It can also protect against strip effects and stop welders and many more. A versatile creature. Oh and also a good way to deal with fatties. He is mana intensive though. Maybe with vial he could find some mana. Thoughts on this one will be appreciated.

A card like vial or gaddock teeg could end up in your hand because you do not need a second or can't play a second (legendary). Same goes for extra land, additional Safekeepers, etc... I would like to recycle those cards and make some card advantage at the same time. Some deck and hand manipulation is required.

1x Brainstorm
4x Thirst for Knowledge

I am also a fan of standstill but without man lands or/and wastelands it seems a bit risky. You would really need a vial out or else the standstill might backfire. And standstill works better with force of will/daze and the like in my opinion. Still I am not dismissing the idea of more draw. Room can be created in the deck. However the deck does not suffer from the lack of more draw. It's more about quality than quantity.

Last but not least is the manabase. I picked 2 basic lands, island and plains, and 6 fetch lands. I don't think it matters that much what you choose for the non basic lands 3x of each or another configuration like 4/3/2 or 4/4/1. Whatever suits you. I picked 3/3/3 because i believe its a healthy distribution.

About the sideboard, its entirely up to your location and the tourneys, formats you play in. I will give my sideboard with some explanation because overall people want to know which card goes out for what in certain match ups. And to be entirely honest i haven't figured out the SB myself.

Here is the new and improved version of  Mr. Gaddock^tm

TO SEE MOST CURRENT LIST GO TO Decklist Mr. Gaddock

Mr. Gaddock ^tm, 2008, Kadir N 'aka' Guli

Mana base
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
2x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
2x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Plateau
1x Glimmervoid
2x City of Brass


Main creature base
4x Meddling Mage
3x Gaddock TeeG
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x True Believer

Counter & protection
4x Sylvan Safekeeper

Artifact control
3x Goblin Welder
3x Gorilla Shaman


creature control
3x Gilded Drake
3x Waterfront Bouncer

Draw & Utility
1x Ancestral recall
4x Skullclamp

Tempo & Counter
4x Æther Vial
1x Time Walk


Against dredge/ichorid you want to cast down as much creatures as you can. Make sure your creatures die as well so you can nail their bridges. Keep Gaddock allive to stop the combo. If you can manage to hold of and plow/sower some stuff chances are even. Still its not a favorable match up. The SB contains 4x Relic of Progenitus, and additional STP to improve the game. You want to side out Predators and chants.

Against stax there is Kataki who who will replace Canonist. I also added (and maybe this is extreme) Sacred Ground.

There is also 2 needle which help against bazaar, time vault, grindstone,...

To bring the pieces together this deck is trying to lock combo out of the game with 2 pieces or at least buys enough time to completely seal the game. It plays a control game against aggro and hits them hard with sowers. It is pushed back by ichorid but can surprisingly hold them off with smart play. There are problems against prison if vial isn't able to go on line. All in one its a skill intensive deck and with the right calls a very competitive vintage aggro & control deck. My primary reason to post my thoughts is to receive feedback. No matter if it positive or/and negative, I value both greatly.

Thanks for your time gals

Guli

[nineisnoone]

The last card of the quattro is the one who will get the most critics, myself included. The idea behind is that you can't rely on counter magic to protect your creatures. Force of Will is actually one of the cards this deck wants to stop (make it dead in hand). And mana drain is not really impressive in this deck. Force of Will could be fit in if you don't mind a little anti synergy. But it is not a 'must do' card. The problem with counter magic is that it sits passively in your hand waiting for a duress to get snapped out of your hand followed by a bounce. You want a permanent solution to the opponents solution. Indirectly you are making his answer a dead card. And if he can not answer the problem his entire deck becomes a dead pile. This logic would only work if you are protecting a card like TeeG, Mage or Canonist. And since we are doing exactly that i am using Sylvan Safekeeper at the time being.

If it was a 2/2 for 2 I could see it, but it's not.

Isn't Mother of Runes what most Legacy decks run to protect their creatures anyways?  I think the tap is less costly then sacrificing a land.

I tried out Plaxmanta in an old legacy deck once.  Didn't play it too much, so not sure if it was just trying to be clever or actually good.  But against targeted removal, it does the job and it gives you a 2/2.

All right that is a total of 26 cards. I said to myself that to use as much creatures as possible. I reserved 6 additional slots for creatures. It is clear that the main creature is designed to cripple combo and control. But at the same time don't forget these are all creatures. This means that in the aggro match up the numbers will be helpful as well. Still the deck needs more creature control. The more concrete problem is actually a fatty like Tarmogoyf or Jötun Grunt. I could use those myself to create a clock and it would work out in most cases but that is not solving the problem of creature control. You can either oppose a fatty with your own fatty or go tho the cause of the problem, the card at the other side of the board. I created 3 characteristics when choosing a card for this deck. Again its not absolute but i try to hold myself to these criteria: It is preferably a creature with and immediate effect that makes the opponents card useless.
If we implement these criteria in the given situation. For example an oath player managed to resolve Oath of Druids and we have a Akroma, Angel of Wrath. I could use Swords to Plowshares to get rid of it but that only would fit for 2/3 in my criteria, and there is no guarantee that my STP resolves. Don't get me wrong, i think STP is a great card. Though the life points the opponent gets will buy him another turn to oath again and this time i don't have a solution anymore. To meet the criteria completely you need to turn the table especially in a hard situation like that. You most likely have a more than one main base creature up. The best way to solve this case is to steal the Akroma with Sower of Temptation. This is a creature with an immediate effect that completely renders the Akroma useless to your oppent AND does even more than that. Sower will improve your aggro match up drasticly. Why run a tarmogoyf when there are plenty of them to steal. Now it is not always that simple of course. It would be prudent to have a Sylvan Safekeeper up when you vial in a Sower of Temptation. You can run additional STP if you have a aggro heavy meta game. Sower is useless against combo thought. But that is all right, If nothing he will swing for 2. If it was Control Magic you could say it was a completely dead card but Sower can always be used to attack obviously.

Sower is 4 mana which seems a bit problematic to hit if you are going against an Aggro deck. 

Assuming you can cast either, STP and Sower have basically the same chance landing.  (I guess you can't Duress a Sower, but STP is much cheaper).

Tarmogoyf is a control piece.  A 2/2 says "target opponent loses the game in 10 turns."  Tarmogoyf says "target opponent loses the game in 4-5 turns."  That is significant.  You should run this card.

A card like vial or gaddock teeg could end up in your hand because you do not need a second or can't play a second (legendary). Same goes for extra land, additional Safekeepers, etc... I would like to recycle those cards and make some card advantage at the same time. Some deck and hand manipulation is required.

1x Brainstorm
4x Thirst for Knowledge

Why suddenly run away from the "must be a creature" theme?  There are plenty of creatures that draw cards, especially at 3 mana.  Also since you have 4 different costs, no Vial is every dead.  And discarding Teeg to TFK isn't a worthwhile benefit either.

I like Teeg alot, more than most, but to be honest FoW > Teeg. 

[SiegeX]

RE: Sower,  I think you should give Guilded Drake a shot.  Not only is he way easier to hard cast at 1U but he is already at the magic number for Vial so you can slip him in without fear of anything but a stifle (or a prot blue creature like Piledriver).  The 3/3 Flyer your opponent gets should be insignificant to what you just ganked from him.


Also, I'm going to agree with nineisnoone about the TFK's.  Only 1/5 of your deck are artifacts, this is a pretty low density to run TFK. Confident would be a better choice here

[Soon-Man]

I like this. Needs so tweaks, but what doesn't. If I were you I would do:

-4 AEther Vial
-4 Sylvan Safekeeper
-4 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Trygon Predator
-3 Sower of Temptation

+4 Null Rod
+4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Force of Will
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Stifle

I am not a big fan of Vial right now. Sure it slips things under Sphere and gets around counters, but I am not sure how big a deal that is. I think that might be a card better served in the board. Null Rod on the other hand is very good vs almost every deck besides fish mirrors. I think Stifle is a natural fit here. It messes up fetches, delays Oath, an numerous other things that would take a while to type out. On top of that it can be pitched to Force. TFK has already been mentioned as not being optimal for this deck, so I don't see the need to reiterate. I don't know what to replace it with, so I'm not going to say anything, but I agree that it doesn't belong here.

Also, why no Strip/Waste?

[nineisnoone]

4   Windswept Heath
4   Polluted Delta
4   Savannah
3   Tundra   
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Black Lotus   

4   AEther Vial
3   Skullclamp

4   Ethersworn Canonist
4   True Believer
4   Tarmogoyf   
4   Plaxmanta
4   Meddling Mage   
3   Gaddock Teeg
2   Vexing Shusher

1   Time Walk
1   Ancestral Recall
4   Orim's Chant
3   Abeyance

SB:
3   Emerald Charm
4   Gleeful Sabotage
4   Magus of the Unseen
4   Swords to Plowshares

[SiegeX]

Going the skullclamp route is interesting, but you don't run any X/1's and thus you require 2x skullclamp or a skullclamp on a sac'd Voidmage to profit from it.   Here is an idea from my suicide black deck and that is running Scarscale Ritual as well.  It's like a nights whisper in that no matter what, you will draw 2, but if you play it on a creature with a skull clamp on it, you just drew 4!  And if you want to get aggro, you can throw in some Dusk Urchins allowing you to draw anywhere from 3 to 6 depending on the combination of skullclamp and/or scarescale. 

Have said all that, I still think Confidant should be here.

[nineisnoone]

Scarscale Ritual... Oooh.  Not a bad idea. 

Confidant puts us in 4 colors.  I prefer 3, unless if I'm going for a 5 color mana base.  Confidant would otherwise be perfect though.

One of the things that tends to be really good against UW fish was Massacre, so Skullclamp kinda works as an answer to that.  It's also an answer (again kinda) against artifact destruction on Cannonist.  And you can sacrifice Cannonist to Prodigy with a Skullclamp on Cannonist as well to draw 2 cards and counter the spell.

Gotta consider Ritual though...

[Moxlotus]

Going the skullclamp route is interesting, but you don't run any X/1's and thus you require 2x skullclamp or a skullclamp on a sac'd Voidmage to profit from it

Clamp doesn't need to be a draw engine.  It can be used as insurance in case your threat gets dealt with.  Jamison used it very effectively at the last SCG Chicago taking r/g beatz to a Lotus.

[nineisnoone]

You posted this in another thread...

Also, seeing how neither Extract nor Stifle really help the oath matchup, why not side in Gilded Drake over Sower of Temptation?  That extra 1U for Sower is not trivial for this deck, and are you really going to care they have a 3/3 Flyer when they are facing down their own DSC, Akroma or Hellkite? (I just realized if you stole Hellkite, it will be pretty useless when they flip over Akroma next turn). It also has the rare chance of stealing a 7/10 before you die, where as with Sower you are pretty much guaranteed to never play that after the Titan hits.

When it should have gone here.   
Aether Vial + Gilded Drake. 
It also has a (somewhat) synergy with Skullclamp.  I.e. Drake their character.  Clamp one of your 2/2s.  Now instead of just getting one-sided if they choose to block, you can trade and draw 2 card for Clamp.  Sweet.

[SiegeX]

You posted this in another thread...

Also, seeing how neither Extract nor Stifle really help the oath matchup, why not side in Gilded Drake over Sower of Temptation?  That extra 1U for Sower is not trivial for this deck, and are you really going to care they have a 3/3 Flyer when they are facing down their own DSC, Akroma or Hellkite? (I just realized if you stole Hellkite, it will be pretty useless when they flip over Akroma next turn). It also has the rare chance of stealing a 7/10 before you die, where as with Sower you are pretty much guaranteed to never play that after the Titan hits.

When it should have gone here.   

Heh, look up a few posts, it's already in here and I believe I posted this one here first =).

RE: Sower,  I think you should give Guilded Drake a shot.  Not only is he way easier to hard cast at 1U but he is already at the magic number for Vial so you can slip him in without fear of anything but a stifle...

Regarding clamp vs guilded drake, since all your 2/2's are ground guys it's useless for defense which means its only going to buy you 1 more aggro point/turn.  Albeit this is better than a kick in the face, but unless your opponent is at 1, hes never going to let you draw 2 at the cost of 1 life.

[nineisnoone]

Oops.  Been misreading things a lot today. =)

I didn't mean on defense just on offense, and the fatal number would be 3 life. 
And it's not a great synergy, but it does let you keep an offense going in the face of what would be an otherwise impossible roadblock.  You should be the aggro in any given match-up (if not Drake isn't the right call) so I wouldn't want to be blocking anyways.  Very good call.  I've been wanting more creatures to justify Vial (which without it devolves to Rod/Cursecatcher which makes black and Confidant/Duress better than white and Cannonist/Mage) and this definitely fits the bill.

[Guli]

Wow, that is a lot feedback, keep it coming. Every little bit counts for me.

I have read the replies and here are some remarks.

I feel the need to repeat the criteria when a new creature wants to join this deck. I did not add color to the criteria but i thought that was obvious. Vial fixes a lot but you don't always get it up. With mage and teeg as the main creatures i find it hard to believe another color can be added.

Another thing is the immediate effect when it comes into play. Dark confident is an excellent card but does not do much for the first 2 turns. His effect is visible a bit later from the moment he hits. This is very important for this deck. Same goes for mother of runes. Besides MOR can't protect against multiple threats in 1 turn and she can not attack while doing her job. She is not aggressive while safe keeper is aggressive. I see safekeeper as a mini mage in this deck. If they don't run any removal or bounce that will target my creatures then i have a useless 1/1 creature but that also means that all my other creatures are non removable permanents who will spell doom for the opponent. All i need to worry about is mass removal and mage/teeg can take care of that.

TFK has been a big question from the start. Sometimes he is very welcome and fixes my hand just the way i wanted and sometimes he just is a tempo loss. The thing is he is for a part about quantity and on the other hand he is about quality. Now i see why it was a mistake we took brainstorm for granted. That card was so good I have thought about going for the more quality route when we talk about deck manipulation. For that I find the Eladamri's Call in nineisnoone's list very interesting. I have thought about another solution though. Since it is not uncommon  to start with land/vial with orim in your hand and the fact that this deck misses brainstorms i thought maybe Sage of Epityr could be very usefull. If you can dig 4 cards and put the one you need on top during upkeep (counter goes up, vial in sage before draw) you are maximizing the effect of vial. With sage as a suggestion Ninja of the Deep Hours comes up next to my mind. Share your thoughts on these potential adds.

Sower of Temptation or Guild drake? Well the 2 extra mana cost matters a lot in vintage i realize that. But so does that 3/3 flying drake you are giving them. Against oath it would not matter i guess you are indeed getting something way more better but against aggro it does matter. I remember having this debate before and it was not concluded back then either so i say it is a matter of taste. I can promise you this though, whenever you cast Sower its mid game and things are tight in that stage. He takes the game when he hits.

Skullclamp is contradicting the very standings of this deck. You don't want your creatures to die remember? Stay on topic please! Same goes for suggestions that simply delete 30% of the list and add in other solid cards but completely throw this deck out of balance and out of its focus. There is a reason for all those cards you will understand that after play testing it several times.

I would like to know how Eladamri's Call plays. In times when you don't have vial up? Do you have time to use 2 mana to search for a bomb? Isnt it better to go with 4x of each and go for consistency in the context of drawing your creature base. It seems to me that Eladamri's Call is very good later on in the game or if you have a vial@2 then you have some kind of counter in your hands because its all instant speed. But you do need vial. More insight on this card please.

If we have to divide the visions or routs

we have people who say mana denial: Null Rod, Cursecatcher,daze, waste&strip,...

and there is the spell denial wich i am promoting: mage/teeg/canonist


Do you think these 2 should be combined or should focus on what they do to be more effective as a whole?
Is their a 'better' route to pick? Can we say for certainty that 1 is better than the other?
How true is the statement that 'Tarmogoyf is a control piece'? Is intensifying the clock an element of control? Explain...
Is the mana cost of Sower that much if you put into consideration that he is mainly in there to grab creatures? Playing an aggro deck means you don't have to worry about turn 1-2 kill in most of the cases... Is it that hard to find 4 mana or get that vial@4 against aggro?

I would really want to continue this thread, keep on sharing!

Guli

[Duncan]

Going the skullclamp route is interesting, but you don't run any X/1's and thus you require 2x skullclamp or a skullclamp on a sac'd Voidmage to profit from it.   

Voidmage is X/1

And you can sacrifice Cannonist to Prodigy with a Skullclamp on Cannonist as well to draw 2 cards and counter the spell.

Canonist isn't a Wizard.

I like someone's innovating non-Rod-Fish these days. But i have my doubts on Chant over FoW.

[BruiZar]

This deck is only interested in creatures that can use their abilities right when they resolve. However this is not absolute. If there is a hard match up and you know it, an exception can be made. With gaddock and mage you already have very good counter play but it is not enough. We need more to scare a storm player, to force him in the defensive, make him look for multiple solutions. It is getting clear that this deck is designed to utterly annihilate any deck based on storm count. Welcome to the squad Ethersworn Canonist. With this beauty on the team those dark rituals don't look so scary anymore. It is functionally a walking Arcane Laboratory.

The last card of the quattro is the one who will get the most critics, myself included. The idea behind is that you can't rely on counter magic to protect your creatures. Force of Will is actually one of the cards this deck wants to stop (make it dead in hand). And mana drain is not really impressive in this deck. Force of Will could be fit in if you don't mind a little anti synergy.

Just a subtility I'd like to point out with Ethersworn Canonist, if your opponent plays a Mana Drain in his first mainphase, it will likely result in mana burn.

[nineisnoone]

And you can sacrifice Cannonist to Prodigy with a Skullclamp on Cannonist as well to draw 2 cards and counter the spell.

Canonist isn't a Wizard.

Grraaah... I meant Mage! Meddling Mage! Mistyping and misreading.

Since it is not uncommon  to start with land/vial with orim in your hand and the fact that this deck misses brainstorms i thought maybe Sage of Epityr could be very usefull. If you can dig 4 cards and put the one you need on top during upkeep (counter goes up, vial in sage before draw) you are maximizing the effect of vial. With sage as a suggestion Ninja of the Deep Hours comes up next to my mind. Share your thoughts on these potential adds.

I've always hated Ninja for some reason. Just a personal thing I guess.  That being said, it's a card that is thrown around quite frequently, so I'm sure it's a decent choice especially if you have Vial to put the creature back into play.

Don't like Sage too much.  In these sorts of decks, I prefer to maximize the number of card that must be answered.  Sage isn't really one.

I would like to know how Eladamri's Call plays. In times when you don't have vial up? Do you have time to use 2 mana to search for a bomb? Isnt it better to go with 4x of each and go for consistency in the context of drawing your creature base. It seems to me that Eladamri's Call is very good later on in the game or if you have a vial@2 then you have some kind of counter in your hands because its all instant speed. But you do need vial. More insight on this card please.

To be honest, it's always a card that is on the cutting board.  I suppose for the same reason I don't like Sage.  It doesn't seem as relevant as it should be.  I ran it originally in some wacky Vial+Scepter Zoo build.  If you look at my deck I'm running 4x of all, so it's more 5-6 of whatever else I'm running then hunting for silver bullets.  It's obviously great with Vial.  It gives you something to do on opposing turns if Cannonist is in play.  But it's usually the card that's pulled when I want something else in.  That being said, I've never been unhappy with it at 2x.  I just want more out of the slots.

we have people who say mana denial: Null Rod, Cursecatcher,daze, waste&strip,...

Just want to say that if you go the Rod/Waste/Cursecatcher route, BUG usually ends up being the best variant.  The cards just work very well together in that deck each usually justifying the other.

How true is the statement that 'Tarmogoyf is a control piece'? Is intensifying the clock an element of control? Explain...

Posted this elsewhere, but Cannonist gives them weaker turns.  Tarmogoyf gives them fewer turns.

Let's just create a hypothetical deck that needs to cast multiple spells on a single turn to win (i.e., Cannonist is relevant).  I'll also say Tarmogoyf is a 5/6 and that your opponent has to use 3 turns to answer your Cannonist.  Obviously, this may or may not be true, but it's just for illustrative purposes.

Cannonist does nothing here.  It takes 10 turns to kill the opponent with a Cannonist.  It takes them 3 turns to answer your Cannonist, leaving you about 14 damage shy of winning the game.  Now if you had Cannonist and Tarmogoyf out, you kill them in 3 turns giving you the win just before the could answer your Cannonist.  Even if they answer your Cannonist a turn before you win, that means that they must win that turn.  If they do not, Tarmogoyf will still beat them.

Dogs and Cats (Isamaru and Savannah Lions) were play in U/W Fish decks for a reason.  The same thing with Tezzeret in control decks.  Winning faster is an entirely relevant.  Whether you want to label that as "control" or not is semantics, but even control decks will look for a faster win condition.

Is the mana cost of Sower that much if you put into consideration that he is mainly in there to grab creatures? Playing an aggro deck means you don't have to worry about turn 1-2 kill in most of the cases... Is it that hard to find 4 mana or get that vial@4 against aggro?

I don't know. I guess, I get 4 mana sometimes.  It just feels counter-intuitive for me since when I get 4 mana up; I'm usually complaining because I've got too much mana and not enough spells.  In some ways its better with Vial, because I probably won't ratchet up my Vial for 2 unless if it's in hand.   So even in that case it'll take me another 2+ turns to get Vial at 4 and even then its questionable unless it's your second Vial because you are missing out on Vialing out 2 drops.

[Guli]

Dogs and Cats (Isamaru and Savannah Lions) were play in U/W Fish decks for a reason.  The same thing with Tezzeret in control decks.  Winning faster is an entirely relevant.  Whether you want to label that as "control" or not is semantics, but even control decks will look for a faster win condition.

This is excellent feedback. Maybe this deck needs some cats and dogs in the mix. After some thought I came up with Skyshroud Elite. Since i don't play mana denial there is a very real chance he will be 2/3. Sure they can avoid non basics for a while but that will cut them off colors they might need to find solutions to the real threats.Adding a single Isamaru, Hound of Konda to up the dog count to 5 is not a bad idea either.
I think the remarks on TFK are partly viable. The card is situational and has the potential to lose a tempo. The fact that it sometimes gives the deck a boost is nice but that is occasional and not consistent. Something has to be done about grindstone and time vault. I already mentioned Azorius Guildmage to be a potential candidate. He will use the excess mana when you have untapped lands. A very useful. He meets the criteria by the way. He doesn't need to tap to use his abilities, creature control and semi-stifle. This can be a dangerous weapon against bazaar/dredge as well. Anyway i can see a lot of good applications.
If I would make changes to the list in this fashion i would drop the draw engine except for ancestral of course and go for consistency and spell/board control all the way.

Concrete this means:

-3 Sower of Temptation
-3 Trygon Predator
-4 Thirst for Knowledge
-1 Brainstorm

+2 Swords to Plowshares (4x = consistent)
+4 Skyshroud Elite
+1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
+4 Azorius Guildmage

This will give me more 1 drops and smoothen the deck flow. Since i bend over turn 1 anyway with land/vial, I can also play land/cat and show the power of this deck on turn 2-3-4 if I am still alive

These are all ideas and suggestions though. I think the lion/jackelpup strategies were successful because they packed a lot of disruption in form of mana denial. I am curious how the turn 1 Savannah lion would work in a deck that doesn't go for mana denial but for spell denial and board control. In theory it excites me and looks very promising but how will it work out... If someone tried this game plan before drop your insights in this thread.

I don't feel comfortable playing without a draw engine but i guess one can't have it all. How about cards like Augury Adept and Cold-Eyed Selkie? Does anyone think they would work without real evasion? With Azorius you could tap any blockers but that seems a bit conditional to me.

Interesting! Keep it coming..

Guli

[BruiZar]

Guli,

You are running Tarmogoyf as well I hope? Otherwise I'd cut the Skyshrouds for Tarmogoyf.

[nineisnoone]

Tarmogoyf is better...

And even if you don't want to play him (I guess maybe you want to play Relic of Progenitus?), Wild Nacatl I think is better.  It's a 2/2 with a plains in play that is not reliant on your opponent. 

As far as the 3 cost card drawing creatures... Augury is against control (i.e. no blockers), Ophidian is best against aggro (can block and survive against bears), and Selkie is best against Fish (unblockable card draw). 

[Guli]

And even if you don't want to play him (I guess maybe you want to play Relic of Progenitus?), Wild Nacatl I think is better.  It's a 2/2 with a plains in play that is not reliant on your opponent. 

Do you think it is wise to play so many 2 drops? The time tarmogoyf needs to become 4/5 or 5/6 is also a factor. An elite (or whatever 1 drop with a 2/2 body) will be swinging for 2 turns at least before tarm really gets huge. Tarm is better because he is bigger but tarm might not be so good in this creature base. I think its ok to drop tarm for a 1 drop to make your flow better. I don't want to cast a turn 1 tarm and i don't want to cast a turn 2 tarm either. I hope you see my point. Nothing to do with relic's but that is also something to keep in mind because i use the relic's in sideboard.

[SiegeX]

I didn't mean on defense just on offense, and the fatal number would be 3 life.

Ya, my bad.   I had a brainfart and was thinking clamp gives -1/-1 just like scarscale ritual.  I see what you mean now about having a 3/1 attack into Gilded Drake, not only does he trade but he lets you draw 2, I like.

Skullclamp is contradicting the very standings of this deck. You don't want your creatures to die remember? Stay on topic please!

I feel into the same trap as you but then Moxlotus reminded us that Skullclamp plays a very different role in fish than it does in affinity.  As he mentioned, the role of clamp here is not to sac your own guys, its an insurance policy against your opponents removal, it also makes blocking your (now) 3/1's more complicated.  It can play a similar role to Sylvan Safekeeper in that it will keep your guys around a turn or two longer, and if they decide to take them out, you get 2 more cards to take his place.  I think you would do well to give this a shot with this new perspective of clamp in mind.

Sower of Temptation or Guild drake? Well the 2 extra mana cost matters a lot in vintage i realize that. But so does that 3/3 flying drake you are giving them. Against oath it would not matter i guess you are indeed getting something way more better but against aggro it does matter. I remember having this debate before and it was not concluded back then either so i say it is a matter of taste. I can promise you this though, whenever you cast Sower its mid game and things are tight in that stage. He takes the game when he hits.

I think clamp and vial in this deck gives Guilded Drake the nod.  Vial we already talked about.  Clamp makes all your bears trade with all the castable creatures you're going to see sans Tarmogoy and Jotun Grunt (if you ever see him anymore.)  Anything else, you will be happy to trade with Guilded Drake.   Guilded Drake also makes it possible to play off an Eladamri's Call at 1UGW, whereas good luck finding 2UUGW for Sower.   This is not to say I think E-Call should be in this deck, but if you are considering it then that's one more reason to use Drake.

Azorius Guildmage is also very interesting to stop those activated abilities like grindstone and timevault. It can also protect against strip effects and stop welders and many more.

In the right meta, this guy can be quite an nuisance.  Not only does he do what you mentioned, he's also a Wizard that sacs to Voidmage and he can tap down that Drake you just gave your opponent for his DSC to swing in for lethal.

[Guli]

After all the feedback, suggestions and remarks i have come to the next list to be the core of the deck. Almost nobody questioned the cards in the list i am about to post. I also find it a good representation of the deck. It is a total of 47 cards mana base included. I am not going to add the mana base to the list though for practical reasons.

4x Meddling Mage
4x Gaddock Teeg
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Orim's Chant
4x Æther Vial
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
21x Mana sources

This pile answers combo because there is the potential to die turn 1-2-3 against combo. That threat must be answered first and that is why there is a heavy anti storm creature base. The chosen core is also anti-control for reasons easy to grasp. It is very important to SEE and UNDERSTAND that in this case a fast clock is less relevant than any other from of aggro/control. Now why would I make such a bold statement? In a sense I am saying that i can lock out combo and control for the rest of the game. Well i think i can almost lock control and combo out for the rest of the game on turn 1-2-3. There are small holes in the net but i am catching 90% of the fish when i cast down a Safekeeper and Gaddock/Canonist. Remember this is specifically designed to shut down a couple of specific decks that have the potential to kill you very early on. That is why the secondary part of the deck should try to focus on the other present decks in the meta. This does not mean that the core pile will be helpless against all the non-combo decks out there. Meddling Mage is strong against almost anything. Gaddock TeeG stops chalice, engineered expl, smokestacks, Tezzeret, ... Safekeeper is very nice against any kind of removal in short term. Canonist is nice with Vial and Chant. There are several cute interactions like that if played and timed correctly.

Now here are my questions:

Are the 13 open slots enough to support the 'weaker' sides of the whole while at the same time creating more synergy within?
Are their still cards that need to be questioned in the so called 'core deck' of Guli?
How do you think Trinket mage would work out in here? You could grab things like needle, relic,sensei top,moxes, ...
Maybe then TFK can become an option again? (after playing without i kinda missed the TFK's)

Please throw in some questions yourself. Specific or more general.

Guli

[The Wolf]

      The biggest issue with this set of cards is the inability to deal with tinker.  Chant is a great card in both the control and combo match up as it stops tendrils and will as well as forcing through spells, but it doesn’t effect tinker in any way.
      The answer might be mindcensor, and I am a huge fan of that card, but it also might be too high on the curve of this deck.    Swords is another option, and although a good card is dead in many situations and doesn’t solve a tinkered out time vault.

How do you deal with a card like sundering titan etc getting into play?

[nineisnoone]

Titan is pretty much the suck, but with Aether Vial you can keep playing creatures and low costs + Vial mean you can hold back on playing all your lands and recover fairly quickly.

As far as Time Vault goes, the OP's list doesn't really have a great answer (aside from Predator I guess).  I run 12 counters and 4 of those are basically uncounterable (Voidmage).  There is always Meddling Mage on Tinker as well, though I doubt that'd be optimal since Tinker is usually the alternate win rather than the primary.

The SB should probably be pretty full of artifact hate in any case, since there is no artifact destruction maindeck.

[nineisnoone]

And even if you don't want to play him (I guess maybe you want to play Relic of Progenitus?), Wild Nacatl I think is better.  It's a 2/2 with a plains in play that is not reliant on your opponent. 

Do you think it is wise to play so many 2 drops? The time tarmogoyf needs to become 4/5 or 5/6 is also a factor. An elite (or whatever 1 drop with a 2/2 body) will be swinging for 2 turns at least before tarm really gets huge.

Even at 3/4 (7 turns), he wins faster than a 2/2 (10 turns).  And you run 8 one drops already (Vial/Safekeeper), so you have plenty of turn 1 plays anyways.  A 2/2 needs +4 turns to beat a 3/4 Tarmogoyf. 

Also a lot of the same drop is exactly what Vial wants.

How do you think Trinket mage would work out in here? You could grab things like needle, relic,sensei top,moxes, ...

Trinket - Don't see why he'd work well.  He's a wizard (but that's my build, not yours), so I like that.  But I don't really see him grabbing anything that significant.  Anything that properly utilizes him, I think would be a different deck.

[chief]

OP: I think you underestimate/ misunderstand skullclamp.  It is an immensely powerful card that can solve many of the woes of a deck like this.  You say you don't want your dudes to die- tough, it's gonna happen.  And when it DOES happen, wouldn't you like to draw 2 cards?  In the mean time, what's wrong with an extra point of damage?  The card will win you the aggro mirror every single time, because you can arrange for them never to make a favorable trade.  Given the lackluster draw engines of most aggro decks (yours included) the +2 CA every time your dudes trade will easily let you outpace your opponent.  Other decks may have some sort of board wiping effect out of the SB for you.  If that is the case, you will obviously not want to be overextending, but a clamp on the board gives you legitimate liscense to commit another dude, too.  There are a million other applications of the card, too, but you get the idea.

Another card that I highly reccomend playing is swords.  Arguments for swords are pretty straightforward.  If you still refuse to play goyf (and for the record, I think you should be playing goyf) AND you don't have the plows, opposing goyfs will cause you headaches.  I know you have whatever to steal them with, but it's not enough.  Trust me. 

I don't know if someone else already suggested this, and I may be the subject of ridicule for the suggestion, but have you considered bant charm?  If anyone is living in a cave, bant charm is UGW- counter an instant, put a dude on the bottom of owners library, or destroy an artifact.  The card is nuts, the only killer is the casting cost.

[nineisnoone]

I don't know if someone else already suggested this, and I may be the subject of ridicule for the suggestion, but have you considered bant charm?  If anyone is living in a cave, bant charm is UGW- counter an instant, put a dude on the bottom of owners library, or destroy an artifact.  The card is nuts, the only killer is the casting cost.

I like this a lot.  Especially in these colors, there's really no good maindeck artifact destruction which lightens the load for the SB.  Most good removal (well barring Massacre) is going to be instant speed anyways.  -2 Call +2 Charm.

[Guli]

I don't know if someone else already suggested this, and I may be the subject of ridicule for the suggestion, but have you considered bant charm?  If anyone is living in a cave, bant charm is UGW- counter an instant, put a dude on the bottom of owners library, or destroy an artifact.  The card is nuts, the only killer is the casting cost.

Why would someone make fun of an idea? Every suggestion is welcome in my world. And the card looks very versatile indeed. The fact it cost 3 mana can be a positive thing when facing chalice. And most of the time chalice is used by shop and that is in fact a match up were this deck could use support cards. The card does what sower or predator want to do. Get rid of an artifact or creature. Excellent card suggestion. Still not entirely convinced though. How many copies? Two of them would lead to inconsistent draw of the card and 4 might be overdoing it. I guess 3 sounds an ok number. I also found out that Pithing needle is a very annoying card, it stops Safekeeper from protecting your bombs on the board. This is not a big issue because it is most likely to name Vial against this deck but still. You could remove time vault, platinum, curicble, stax,... Spheres/thorns don't hurt as bad because of vial and low cc overall.
What worries me most is the 3 different mana you need to find. Especially against stax. You can still vial in predator but you can't play bant charm in a tight mana situation.

I play Tarmogoyf, i play them in sideboard or switch them to main deck. Depends a bit on the metagame. The thing is i have access to them. It is just that i won't suffer greatly if i don't use them when playing aggro. I will manage with my bears and try to outnumber them with my 22 creatures. But against combo it won't matter a bit if i run tarm or not. It will all come down to whether I put down my own little combo to stop their only way of winning. That is a much faster clock than tarm can ever provide against combo. In the mean time i will still be able to fight against less faster decks. By playing like this i am maximizing the chances of winning game 1 against combo while still being very much able to walk over any deck. Once you know what your opponent runs you can side in Tarmogoyf so he can pull his weight. I hope this made sense. I don't need to be convinced about Tarmogoyf, i just use them in a different fashion.

I am a bit more interested in the bigger questions. We all know Tarmogofy is a great card in almost every aggro that splashes green. In fact in most cases he will be the main reason to add green. But in THIS case it is Gaddock Teeg (and Safekeeper but just because the unique synergy). This is a white deck with blue and green splash. You can see that on the cc of teeg and mage for example. You can't rely on vials every game, you need to have a main color or else you could get mana screwed with 3 colors. I often fetch up my plains turn 1 and drop vial. When building or adding a card you can't dismiss these basics.
'Just add the damn card Guli' , No! I never just add a card :p

I really love the way this thread goes but i want more people (both combo players and fish players) to come here and give comments and insights. I believe this way of approaching to aggro control is innovating and has serious potential. The deck is solid right now but it can definitely become much more. There are surely more options/cards that are less obvious that will create more synergy and flow in the deck and add support to the less strong match ups. As an example i want to refer to
ErkBek's BUG Fish with Rod's.

Tarmogoyf is just a vanilla creature. Doesn’t fish need to play disruptive creatures? Tarmogoyf is like a reverse Dark Confidant in this deck. Instead of drawing you cards, he limits your opponent’s draw steps and untap phases since he is a very fast clock on his own.

That kind of synergy is what i love to work with. Safekeeper is very direct and obvious. Now in Erkbek's version the key is the mana denial. And that is one of the reasons why dark confidant and tarm work well together and act synergistic. They are both unable to to anything about a storm kill but they are supported by massive disruption elements. The same can not be said about my strategy. Therefor do not be hasty about 'add this and add that' just suggest the card and lets brainstorm about it together. Or if you really want to be convincing try to write a bit more and give very solid arguments.

Guli

[nineisnoone]

How many copies? Two of them would lead to inconsistent draw of the card and 4 might be overdoing it. I guess 3 sounds an ok number.

I don't think I'd run more than two.  You want to be playing threats for awhile anyways.  It's really not efficient enough of a card (3 mana to do any one effect is overpriced) to warrant more slots.  However, it's creature answer 5-6 for me and gives me some main deck artifact answer, so it gives the main deck answers to certain situations rather than just roll over and die.

I play Tarmogoyf, i play them in sideboard or switch them to main deck. Depends a bit on the metagame. The thing is i have access to them. It is just that i won't suffer greatly if i don't use them when playing aggro. I will manage with my bears and try to outnumber them with my 22 creatures. But against combo it won't matter a bit if i run tarm or not. It will all come down to whether I put down my own little combo to stop their only way of winning. That is a much faster clock than tarm can ever provide against combo. In the mean time i will still be able to fight against less faster decks. By playing like this i am maximizing the chances of winning game 1 against combo while still being very much able to walk over any deck. Once you know what your opponent runs you can side in Tarmogoyf so he can pull his weight. I hope this made sense. I don't need to be convinced about Tarmogoyf, i just use them in a different fashion.

I am a bit more interested in the bigger questions. We all know Tarmogofy is a great card in almost every aggro that splashes green. In fact in most cases he will be the main reason to add green. But in THIS case it is Gaddock Teeg (and Safekeeper but just because the unique synergy). This is a white deck with blue and green splash. You can see that on the cc of teeg and mage for example. You can't rely on vials every game, you need to have a main color or else you could get mana screwed with 3 colors. I often fetch up my plains turn 1 and drop vial. When building or adding a card you can't dismiss these basics.
'Just add the damn card Guli' , No! I never just add a card :p

But all of this doesn't explain why you are valuing Skyshroud Elite (or whatever) over Tarmogoyf.  We're not debating Tarmogoyf over a disruptive creatures.  We're comparing Skyshroud Elite to Tarmogoyf.  And Skryshroud is just simply inferior to Tarmogoyf even considering the facts you state.  They are both green.  They are both simply beaters.  The loss of a turn or two does not help Skyshroud do more damage then then. And additionally, Vial works better with redundant costs.

[EnialisLiadon]

Maybe I missed it, but was a sufficient argument given as to why Sylvan Safekeeper is used over something like Mother of Runes?  Sacrificing a land to deal with a removal spell seems incredibly terrible, with other options available.

[Guli]

Maybe I missed it, but was a sufficient argument given as to why Sylvan Safekeeper is used over something like Mother of Runes?  Sacrificing a land to deal with a removal spell seems incredibly terrible, with other options available.

Against decks that really need to bounce canonist/teeg/mage, for example if you can't create enough storm or play tendrils, i don't even call it a sacrifice i call it locked out of the game. Please try to understand this, and if you don't want to understand go test the deck against combo. In some situations i can't afford the summoning sickness. As an example here is a ingame situation:

Vial@1 you have a teeg in play and a mother of runes in your hand. They chain of vapor some stuff and lastly they target your teeg. You vial in mother of runes. You lose. With safekeeper you sacrifice a land and you win. Just see it as a permanent that can give shroud at instant speed. With high quality creatures like Meddling Mage, Teeg and canonist the ability of shroud is more than welcome. It forces them to dig deeper and harder to find a solution if there is any.

Mother of runes can not attack if used in this deck.
Mother of runes can not guarantee the protection of one or multiple creatures.

Guli