Aggro & Control, the real meaning: Mr. Gaddock

[nineisnoone]

There is Vexing Shusher against Chalice @ 2.  Though he's double green which could be an issue, but you have Vial anyways.  I think he helps out generally better than Oxidize would.

I'm not all that sold on Bouncer.  Bouncing aggro without some sort of quick combo finish isn't that strong.  You have 10 answers to tinker main deck already (Drake, Magus, FoW).  He's good against oath though and good with Drake (you can bounce it back to your hand).  Otherwise, bouncing your own stuff is kind of irrelevant since you are already running 4x Safekeepers for protection, and your cards don't have CIP abilities.

How is FoW and Teeg working for you?  I just avoided that dissynergy.

You don't have 'Goyf again....

-3 Bouncer -3 Oxidize
+ 4 Tarmogoyf +2 Deglamer/Krosan Grip

[Guli]

I like Shusher but he belongs in TMWA. If i would run something double green i would go for Viridian Zealot. But those kinda creatures cost time and mana to show their power and effect. Force of Will is like everybody would agree simply an amazing card. Even with dissynergy. You just try to avoid that situation with smart play and also the chances you draw force once you are top deck mode is not that high. Force is good to force in TeeG against decks that matter (storm) and after that you don't really care anymore because you have an active teeg. Just try to use that force early on before teeg hits I would say. And later on pitch it for bouncer.
Bouncer and Drake are known for their team play. We all know how effective they are against dudes. And both are great on their own to have creature control. I like them because this deck works in teams. Anti-storm team, creature-control team and anti-artifact team. Note that these teams can pack the same creatures. (multitasking)
Oxidize is not a must keeper, however he is so cheap and instant speed. Always nice to have 1 in your hand even if you are not playing stax or shop. Killing a mox is not exactly a time walk but it does hurt the opponent when they don't expect it. Same thing can be said about Stifle. I don't have problems with chalice@2 because of vials but sometimes that vial is missing and the chalice hits early and well then you have an out with oxidize but definitely not the main reason to include Oxidize. Krosan Grip is 3 mana which could be too much if you are facing spheres/trini/waste... and i have plenty answers vs oath if that is your concern.
I added Force of Will and this meant that i had to up the blue count and make room basically. If i cut Bouncer i will not play with Force of Will. You can better say
-4 Force of Will
+4 Tarmogoyf
You can't just ignore the drawback of Force of Will in these kind of decks. If you do you end up having a dead Force of Will in your hand. How shameful is that in Vintage? That is disrespectful towards Force of Will.
-3 Oxidize
+3 Tarmogoyf
This is a decent suggestion. But remember there are time you really need that cheap spot artifact removal because your magus of the unseen is late at his appointment. I rather have a simple Oxidize than a big dude in my hand. Don't forget the first article I wrote. Clock is less relevant in this deck because of the nature of the deck. Clock is good when you cripple and don't have a solid lock. This deck can give you a hard lock against combo very early on and deal with almost any aggro mid game.
Also keep in mind that you need to get rid of needle or rod. They can shut down your safekeeper or vial wich hurts more than one might think. What about playing with 2 Tarms and cutting a safekeeper and 1 bouncer.

+2 Tarmogoyf
-1 Bouncer
-1 Safekeeper (since you can provide some kind of protection with bouncer as well)

Something like that would be possible but there is no way to reach those cards and it would not increasethe consistency of the deck.

EDIT:
I think -4 Force of Will and +4 Tarmogoyf is best for this deck. And after playing many games without a draws engine I really am kinda sick of the lack of draw. I decided to try out Curiosity. With so many creatures (and possibly with shroud) this can't go wrong. I made the changes to the original list. I will keep this list for now. In the mean time i would like to hear options about Tinker/Platz. It sure does fit in this deck theme. A creature that has an immediate effect (what an effect that is lol!)

Guli

[nineisnoone]

Why is Vexing a "TMWA only idea"?  I don't run it either, but it's not a card I'm just dismissing off-hand.

I don't see the infatuation with Oxidize.  For 1 more mana you can play Deglamor, and that will hit Oath, Moat, Propoganda, and maybe something else I'm not thinking about.  I don't see the +1 mana cost being more important than hitting a few more cards.  You even mention Zealot which I would play over Oxidize, especially if we are talking main deck.  Oxidize just looks like a SB card that you put into the main deck.

Don't see the need for Tinker, Angel. 

[brianpk80]

This is experimental but it looks good. About oxidize, its cheap, could get rid of Chalice@2 and i see a good portion of artifacts around that need to be dealt with. And if it is really useful it is most likely against a deck that can be dealt with and you can live with the 3 dead slots. Just side them out. And i think almost every deck packs at least some artifact. Like Needle or mishra. I think he will be a cheap and useful card.

What you guys think about this list? More competitive than the original one?

Guli, I really like where you are headed with this list.  With every update, it shows a deeper and deeper understanding of the strengths of a Vial Fish build.  The fact that you put the target threats in parenthesis, like Tinker, Stax, and Time Vault, is exactly the right basis to think about when playing this deck which is defensive and very responsive to a current metagame. 

I think you can do without the FoW's.  I never ran them in Vial Fish.  Turn 1 protection from "crazy" stuff can be proactively hindered instead with Cursecatcher or Tormod's Crypt.  With the abundance of creatures and lack of other instants (which is a good thing, IMO), your own Forces end up just being Duressed.  Plus, unlike many blue decks that can pitch a Brainstorm, Ponder, or Accumulated Knowledge in a pinch, the blue spells you run are things you'll want to keep and resolve.  In my experience, it's better to have something to put on the table. 

With the 3 open slots, there is a lot you can do.  Tinker came up as an idea, and I'd hesitate to run it for a lot reasons.  On the other hand, with Vials, Moxen, Lotus, Canonists, possibly some Crypts or maybe even a Jitte, you're getting close to being able to effectively support Tolarian Academy.  With that kind of base, perhaps Tezzeret + Time Vault would be an interesting add to the deck instead of Tinker + Platinum?

Another thing... I haven't seen your sideboard.  But Living Wish may be a good choice for which to use an additional slot.  It's functionally a Demonic Tutor for green in a deck designed this way. 

Care to post your list? 

Sure.  I will look up the file I have tonight for the deck and post it in a little bit. 

-B

[Guli]

Why is Vexing a "TMWA only idea"?  I don't run it either, but it's not a card I'm just dismissing off-hand.

I don't see the infatuation with Oxidize.  For 1 more mana you can play Deglamor, and that will hit Oath, Moat, Propoganda, and maybe something else I'm not thinking about.  I don't see the +1 mana cost being more important than hitting a few more cards.  You even mention Zealot which I would play over Oxidize, especially if we are talking main deck.  Oxidize just looks like a SB card that you put into the main deck.

Don't see the need for Tinker, Angel. 

Yes it is more a SB card indeed, still its also a cheap way to deal with a weak match up. It was just an idea anyway. The list i am currently using is always in the first post and my signature. This way my last posts can always be linked to that list unless i state otherwise.

You will see that i am using 4x 'Goyf and i filled up those 3 slots with Curiosity.

I have thought about SOFI and jitte too, especially to protect against bounce (sofi) and pyroclasm. But i think it costs a lot of mana and effort to bring them online effectively. Or not? Do you think it is playable? I would love SOFI that is a perfect solution on paper.

I think the suggestion of Living Wish should be seriously considered. I can think of a zillion ways to abuse that card.

Anyway i also experimented to mix in mana denial by removing magus, bouncer and drake. I added wastelands strips, kataki and cursecatchers. It kinda worked but it was not in balance. I didn't really tried to tune it but it is also an interesting path to go. The problem is you can't use Null Rod. So maybe chalice? Personally i want to play without mana denial because of various reasons posted before. It is not the aim of this deck etc... But trying it out and seeing how it works is educative.

[nineisnoone]

Random thought.  Since you don't really run any instants (Recall and Grip in the board, both of which are irrelevant for this point), why not try out In the Eye of Chaos?  If it drops it's pretty much insane and asymmetric.

How is Curiosity working for you?  I've seen it pop up in lists, but I've never run it personally.  I know you don't like Clamp, but another card I've given some thought to (but have never tried) is Mask of Memory.  It's 2 mana more but it draws you an additional card and stays on the board if the creature gets nuked.

Random thing I noticed, why the change to 3x Cannonist?  Just a matter of freeing up deck space?  To me, 4x Cannonist is one of those set in stone things. 

I would rather run Eldamari's Call than Living Wish (unless you are going to use the land option but I don't see that as being strong enough to warrant it), since you can play it in response to something and then Vial it out.  This is a huge advantage over the sorcery speed Wish imo.

I would think SOFI is a bit slow and it still doesn't protect against Swords or random Black removal. 

I'm also finding Magus to be more of a SB card.  It's very good at what it does, but I'm not too worried about Stax or Tezzeret.  For Tinker, I always have Drake and Swords/Charm.  I'm not sure what to replace it with yet though.

BTW, you have 6 Waterfront Bouncers on your list on Essential Magic.  (3 SB).

[Guli]

Here is some feedback, i will write more later

Random thought.  Since you don't really run any instants (Recall and Grip in the board, both of which are irrelevant for this point), why not try out In the Eye of Chaos?  If it drops it's pretty much insane and asymmetric.

Sounds nice, maybe instead trying to draw into more cards we could stop opposing draw engine. I wonder though how effective will 1 copy be? And if you use more than 1 how many and instead of what? And another thing it is mana denial. They can actually play the spell anyway if enough mana is available. I already have teeg/vial/mage to stop things like force and mana drain. In the eye would only make an already favorable match up stronger. If you don't agree please tell me why.

How is Curiosity working for you?  I've seen it pop up in lists, but I've never run it personally.  I know you don't like Clamp, but another card I've given some thought to (but have never tried) is Mask of Memory.  It's 2 mana more but it draws you an additional card and stays on the board if the creature gets nuked.

I haven't tested it extensively yet. So far so good. Against aggro put in on Tarm if you can. If used correct and with some luck it can be a slow ancestral over the turns. This makes me wonder about Ancestral Vision. I relatively have a slow clock unless tarm hits. Curiosity is more dependent (even if you run so many creatures) but more direct.
Hypothetically speaking if i would include one of them which one would you use?
Second question, is either one of them good enough to cut it in this deck?
Did you use Mask in the past? If you did please explain how he worked out? Definitely interested!

Random thing I noticed, why the change to 3x Cannonist?  Just a matter of freeing up deck space?  To me, 4x Cannonist is one of those set in stone things.

I noticed that you rather have 1 of each anti combo than 2 of the same. You want to mix consistency with variety. And yes also for making some room. I think 3-3-3 is nice. You can play around with it though. I prefer this configuration because of experience and taste with the cards. The inclusion of Believer was a big factor as well.

I'm also finding Magus to be more of a SB card.  It's very good at what it does, but I'm not too worried about Stax or Tezzeret.  For Tinker, I always have Drake and Swords/Charm.  I'm not sure what to replace it with yet though.

I kinda agree with this. I am using Bouncer/Drake (6 cards). Right now with 3 magus that is 9 cards to answer Tinker. The thing is, and that is the reason i keep in for the moment, he pulls of weight from Meddling Mage. If you don't have an answer to tinker you have to fill that weak spot with Mage and to be honest I rather name something more global or a primary win condition. I hope I made it clear by now that cards can interact without a direct synergy. I just don't like the 1/1 body of Bouncer and Magus. They are small but at the same time effective. Size doesn't matter in this case i guess. I realize i have not given a really good argument for Magus. I think i am still testing him and seeing how it goes. If he disappoints me too many times i will let you know.

On the other hand, with Vials, Moxen, Lotus, Canonists, possibly some Crypts or maybe even a Jitte, you're getting close to being able to effectively support Tolarian Academy.  With that kind of base, perhaps Tezzeret + Time Vault would be an interesting add to the deck instead of Tinker + Platinum?

Well i have no idea. Be aware that Teeg doesn't allow Tezzeret. Maybe something more simply like intuition,regrowth,enlightened tutors stuff like that to find the combo? Adding a mid game combo should be explored at all times. It is a quick way to turn your advantage into a win and sometimes it can simply randomly win games early on or when you are losing.

[Guli]

About some kind of time vault play. This might be a long shot but Aphetto Alchemist is 2 mana and can untap an artifact.
He could be used to untap vials, bouncers and magus. This does work with time vault right? Just like voltaic key... He can also be used to give Tarm vigilance in a way.
It doesn't have to be change the deck drastically at all BTW, with a couple Eldamari's Call even 1 would be enough alongside Time vault. Also a couple tutors to fetch vault maybe tinker and/or transmute artifact or enlightened tutor. It can also be in the sideboard like other dudes and Living Wish may be an option. Living wish may be a sorcery but he can also bring in serious threats like predator and kataki in game 1. And he makes tarm bigger. If you know what to get you will need in the match up you can easily anticipate what you need. The problem is you don't have access to the main deck creatures like mage. You could still fit in 1 teeg/1 Canonist/1 Believer in sideboard though. These are all speculations and open for discussion.

[brianpk80]

Well, the export deck function doesn't seem to be my best friend tonight so I'll just type the list out.

Per request, here it is.

"Fish Party"

(Meddling Mage not invited)

Lands (18):
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Glimmervoid
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Maze of Ith
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine

Artifact Accel (9):
4 AEther Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet

Non-creatures/Card Advantage (6):
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Intuition
2 Oath of Ghouls

Non-creatures/Disrupt (2):
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt

Creatures (25):
4 Dark Confidant (Draw)
4 Ethersworn Canonist (Slow opponent)
3 True Believer (Grindstone, Helm, Intuition, Seize/Duress, Tendrils, Hurkyl's Recall, Mindslaver, Diabolic Edict, Gifts)
2 Cursecatcher (Slow opponent)
2 Gorilla Shaman (Slow opponent)
2 Serra Avenger (Clock that flies above Moats and creature standstills / blocks renegade Drake)
2 Weathered Wayfarer (Mana fixing, Color fixing, Defense [Maze], Draw [library], Strip)
2 Stern Proctor (Tinker, Null Rod, Platinum, Oath, Stax pieces, Animates [w. Vial out] but most importantly random unexpected stuff that always shows up both pre and post board, particularly enchantments.  Not the most exciting card but when both common and strange things resolve--VERY glad he's in here)
1 Magus of the Unseen (Game swinging ability v. Vault, Grind, Tinker, Stax, Juggernaut, Platinum, etc.)
1 Gilded Drake (Big creature control)
1 Waterfront Bouncer (Big creature control)
1 Jotun Grunt (Aggro + Recursive Spine of the deck, now a bit more relevant w. all the Goyfs)

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Tormod's Crypts
2 Peacekeeper
1 Sacred Ground
1 Gilded Drake
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Kami of False Hope
1 Magus of the Unseen
1 Goblin Welder
1 Darkblast   

I change specific quantities somewhat regularly depending on how it seems the game is shifting.  Magic, of course, is both science and art.  So there's some intuition at play there.  But the way I run it is the way that most complements my play style.  My approaches are control and toolbox oriented.  In Vial Fish, instead of throwing 4 of any given card in, I instead think of the purpose they're serving and see if a 4-set can be split in to two sets of 2's that accomplish the same thing but are synergic instead of redundant.  Bouncer/Drake is the clearest example: they both "pretty much" do the same thing and guard against the same threats.  However, drawing a second Bouncer is less valuable than drawing a Drake in addition to the Bouncer.  Cursecatcher/Gorilla follows the same idea.  Gorilla #2 is redundant, where a Cursecatcher + a Gorilla wouldn't be.  The approach might not be everyone else's favored way, but it works for me. 

I'm fairly happy with the Canonists.  It's not clear whether I'll keep them as a 4-set for the long run, though feel very comfortable having one in play at any given time.  Intuition is situational.  There is no perfect Intuition pile for every situation, but a few that come up are an early game Intuition for Dark Confidants if the game is off to a slow start.  Intuition for Canonist if Vial is charged to 2 and a storm is brewing.  If there's an Oath out, Intuition for the three best creatures for the circumstances (since it's a triple tutor then).  If there's a specific critter who needs to party, Intuition for 2 Oath + that critter.  The majority of time though, when I resolve Intuition, I do an improv and figure out what will work best.  It tends to be stronger post sideboard.  There's probably more than can be done in adjusting quantities to maximize Intuition but admittedly I haven't made that the prime concern since Alara came out. 

Hope that's helpful.

[nineisnoone]

Guli:
In the Eye names more than Drain/FoW, it also names Thirst For Knowledge, Intuition, and all Rituals (well they can play it, but they likely won't be able to storm off it anymore).  Though, I run FoW in my UWG deck.  I'm going to try to build a UBx deck using it though, so we'll see.

brianpk80:
Why Intuition instead of Demonic Tutor, Demonic Consultation (Intuition can't get you a 1-of either), Vampiric Tutor, or Imperial Seal?  You run black.  Intuition and Oath seems too situational, rare (you only run 2 of each), and slow to be better than Demonic Tutor.

[Guli]

I have been toying around with vaults, key, tinker, alchemist and then i came up with some idea's with vials and charge counters



There is a puzzle here! I am pretty sure something can be done with this pile of cards. Some have to be dropped perhaps and maybe new ones can come in but i think this is very interesting. Your vials will become charge counter generators. They will not only get your creatures in but also help with some kind of combo. The thing is you will most likely work with Power Conduit. I already see a lot of synergy but i will leave it as it is to get more people in this thread. This might be 'fun' but i am quite serious and confident that this will work out. I just broke this deck i think. Now up to you! Brainstorm away...

Guli

[brianpk80]

I have been toying around with vaults, key, tinker, alchemist and then i came up with some idea's with vials and charge counters

This is a fun idea.  There was a discussion on it a few years back: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27235.0;wap2

The Time Vault combo may make it stronger.  Don't forget Chalice of the Void! 

The bad part is that Null Rod is ridiculously brutal, as are Rebuild and Hurkyl's Recall.  I had a terrible time finding an optimal way to escape Rod. 

Why Intuition instead of Demonic Tutor, Demonic Consultation (Intuition can't get you a 1-of either), Vampiric Tutor, or Imperial Seal?  You run black.  Intuition and Oath seems too situational, rare (you only run 2 of each), and slow to be better than Demonic Tutor.

I prefer Intuition because it is an instant and Entombs as well as Tutors.  I rarely play the spell on my own turn.  If I were to run a black tutor, it would be Vampiric.  Like any tutor, Intuition bends to suit the game state.  It is very strong post sideboard.  Another reason I prefer it is because it opens up more pathways if I am running Welder.  Welder comes and goes in this list, sometimes populating it a lot and sometimes hiding in the sideboard.  Right now, he's demoted, but his presence has always been something on my mind re: Intuition.  Hope that helps explain. 

-B

[nineisnoone]

I have been toying around with vaults, key, tinker, alchemist and then i came up with some idea's with vials and charge counters.

Scepter + Coretapper + Academy Ruins is infinite turns. 
It unfortunately swallows your draw step and requires 4 mana. 

I prefer Intuition because it is an instant and Entombs as well as Tutors.

That makes sense, but I suppose it's a player preference thing.  Demonic for Recall alone is enough for me to put Demonic above Intuition.  But Intuition is a fine card, especially if you are considering Welders.

Also, is Proctor really that good?  I'm not a fan of bounce spells when they aren't followed by a win, especially since you are not running any counter magic.  If you bounce a Moat or a Oath or a Rod, they'll just replay it the next turn.  Outside of Disenchant not hitting DSC, I would rather deal with those sorts of threats permanently.

[brianpk80]

Also, is Proctor really that good?  I'm not a fan of bounce spells when they aren't followed by a win, especially since you are not running any counter magic.  If you bounce a Moat or a Oath or a Rod, they'll just replay it the next turn.  Outside of Disenchant not hitting DSC, I would rather deal with those sorts of threats permanently.

Yes, Proctor is that good for many reasons.  Some of the things bounced are effectively gone for good, like Darksteel Colossus or Sundering Titan.  Proctor is a recyclable bounce with Waterfront Bouncer or some method of elimination + Oath.  Most of the things bounced by Proctor don't need to be destroyed permanently.  Freeing up a pair of Vials for a turn from a Null Rod does a lot to break its grip.  Something like Moat will have a stalemate like board inhere for an indefinite amount of time.  Bouncing the Moat on your turn and then attacking with full force is usually enough to close the deal.  Getting rid of a pesky Chalice @1 is usually enough to lay a Vial and work around it completely.  Leyline of the Void is another good common target that doesn't easily lend itself to recasting.  And it's as good as any singular bounce spell (Chain of Vapor for instance) v. Stax where getting rid of the right lock piece at the right time is what wins v. loses games. 

Beyond that, for this broadly scoped defensive deck genre, Stern Proctor is the best "catch all" I can think of offhand.  It plays the role of Viridian Zealot for a deck that runs no green, and needs no activation cost.  When metagames are in flux, as they are now, a lot of very pecuilar things start showing up, many of them being in enchantment form.  It's never fun to lose because an opponent unexpectedly brings in The Abyss, Back to Basics, or does some bizarre Fastbond based combo, etc.   

[Guli]

I have been thinking out of the box. Putting aside color completely what would be the cheapest strongest creature to deal with tinker/artifacts. I think that is goblin welder. If somehow i could play with welders and add a welder toolbox (welder with the right tools can be extremely strong). I can see the synergy with canonist already welding it in. Man I would love Goblin welder in this deck it opens so many possibilities. I could work in the vault/key/tinker. Intuitions become stronger (if added to main). It must be possoble to play welder with vials and a little red splash? Maybe a couple glimmervoid is possible. There is always the argument, if you are going to add another color add black and play confidants or something like that. If the correct mana base supported by vials can be found why not go with 5 colors? Just take the best of the best creatures in what you want them to do. Magus of the unseen is strong but in terms of power level & synergy Welder is outclassing him by far.

Another card pool that got my attention is when i was reading one of Smmenen posts about that deck with canonist/aven land tax/scroll and aura's. With safekeeper online land tax route becomes a very interesting option. But this route would change the mana base a lot so adding welder(red) would not be possible i think. But it gives you other things. Cards for example. And improves the match up against stax. Thoughts please.

Btw Brian, i remember your deck very clearly. There is lots of synergy in that deck that might not seem visible at first glance. When you were promoting that deck i was also working on an oath of ghouls version. I share your interest in ghouls it is a great card advantage control card. I also agree about proctor when it comes to ghouls and bouncer. He is strong in the right deck and this is a deck were he fits in.

I am surprised why the feedback stopped for the most part. The list I am promoting is very interesting and strong as it is now. It just doesnt pack the standard mana denial/disruption in many fish decks but that is compensated by the strength of vial and strong creatures it packs. The disruption is withing the creature base.

Thanks all,

Guli

[Guli]

After some good amount of testing i decided to play with Goblin Welder in maindeck. He acts like vial/keeper when it comes to canonist. He stops Tinker. He improves stax match up drastically (at least equalizing because you now have vials and welder turn 1). He creates and denies mana. (disruption). The only big turn off is the red color but i have changed the mana base a little bit. And besides it is only 3 Welder. In best case you won't even need to fetch for plateau and you can vial it in. If you didn't get a vial on line there are 5 fetch lands, a lotus petal, black lotus and 1 city of brass. Welder needs a turn to become active but so did Magus of the moon. And welder is free to tap. I think welder is clearly the superior choice here.

I want meddling mage, gaddock teeg, canonist and believer. They all have their own range and functionality. Against combo either one of them + canonist can hurt a lot and in some cases end the game right there. Canonist has the best effect but he is at the same time the most vulnerable one. Rebuild for example is a great way to outplay vial/canonist strategies. Canonist is a much weaker lock card than teeg or believer. I am keeping him though. He is a good turn 1 drop and buys me time to get information about the deck i am facing so my mage and other card choices become better.

I tried a combination of vault/painter. It worked out but it was not optimal. I like the mid game combo route better than the mid game creature/artifact/aggro control route. Like I said before this deck wants to survive the first couple of turns by dropping anti-combo bombs and then ... well that is what this thread is all about. Although it is very strong to play with bouncer/drake/magus/tarm and/or curiosity. Maybe instead of that you can just finish the game with a super fast clock or even an instant dead. Things like dreadnoughts also came to my mind. Anyway, the instant win (combo) doesn't require a lot of cards. But it will force the deck to create slots if you want to effectively combo out. You want to force your combo through with the first wave of bears. This can be done by naming drains and casting teegs or just welding back the countered stuff. It is a creature deck. And we have access to vials. That is why i picked the painter combo. Also grindstone has some synergy with Tarm and Welder. The artifact count has gone up and this asks for Tolarian academy. The vault/key option is also very interesting. Key is great with vial and can be used to untap canonist. The thing is if i use vault and key win condition then i need to add tutors to the deck. With painter i can add 3x and just cast them in between my real stuff and set up the kill. Another possibility is to add 1 copy of each: 1 vault, 1 voltaic key, 1 painter and 1 grindstone and try to look for the missing piece with tinker/enlightened/mutation. I thought using 3x painter wasn't that bad because without drake and bouncer the aggro match up needs a little support. A 1/3 body is not bad against 2/2 bears. Oath becomes a little problematic but its a matter of who casts his bomb first. Mage is deadly with Safekeeper against Oath and welder/vial up can be a serious problem if i am holding painter and grind against any control. You vial in painter and cast grind if countered just weld it back in and its pretty much over. These are all very strong plays that end the game on the spot.

A problem i have been facing is null rod. I am not that much worried about it because null rod only stops vials and the combo kill. It does absolutely nothing against the creatures that will be coming. Tarm + safekeeper really helps here. I have zero removal in the deck right now. Maybe welder can be used to remove rod but i can't really rely on that. Maybe I will fit in 2 Viridian zealots. (A bit the same idea as Stern Proctor in Brian's list)

What is certain is the addition of Welder, painter/grind



I can see this deck develop into a 5 color deck with gemstone's, city of brass, life from loam to support the mana base. But for know a little bit of red splash and slowly improve the deck.

[brianpk80]

Btw Brian, i remember your deck very clearly. There is lots of synergy in that deck that might not seem visible at first glance. When you were promoting that deck i was also working on an oath of ghouls version. I share your interest in ghouls it is a great card advantage control card. I also agree about proctor when it comes to ghouls and bouncer. He is strong in the right deck and this is a deck were he fits in.

Thank you.  I forgot to mention the Ninja synergy with the Proctor above, which is another recyclable use for him.  On paper, it's easy to say, "No that is boring and suboptimal," but without Stern Proctor or two, the deck exposes itself to certain weaknesses for which there is no other out.  It's not bad against Oath of Druids either, which is turning more and more into a suicide deck these days, so an extra turn to swing for 4 or 6 isn't bad. 

I've grown very fond of Azorius Guildmage recently whose ability is usable the moment he is Vialed in or cast, so there is no turn to wait a la Magus or Waterfront.  Azorius is an interesting card that flexes towards defensing against general aggro, large creatures, artifact based removal (Explosives, Keg) and the types of activated artifacts that are becoming kills du jour, Time Vault, Grindstone, Helm of Obedience, etc.  The 2/2 body is nice as well as the ease of casting.  He works well in Fish builds that have access to renewable mana sources (not good in Null Rod based Fish), so incorporating an Azorius suite puts Sol Ring and off-color Moxen up for serious consideration.     

I like where you're heading with the Welders.  Increasing the quantity of 1-drops enables Ninja of the Deep Hours as a draw engine (another hidden synergy is Ninja can reset Meddling Mages that misfired early on).  I think Viridian Zealot is another strong card, and the only trouble I've had with him is that even when I have experimented with green splashes, I had trouble getting the double green in the casting cost if there was no Vial in play. 

I see that you are thinking about Academy.  Although there are enough artifacts to support it, it's best used with creatures that have activation costs, like Gorilla, Azorius, Eight & a Half Tails, etc.  I'm not sure what you would do with all the mana, aside from Grindstone.  Secondly, I always have to look at how many of the artifacts have 0 as a casting cost.  It's a horrible position to be in to have no other lands, a pair of 1 casting cost artifacts in hand, no other land, and then no way to use the Academy.   

I've been working on modernizing the list for post Alara.  I'm leaning towards Vault/Key if for no other reason than, when in a pinch, I have a much easier time getting the 1 mana to use Key than the 3 for Grinstone. 

Also, I don't know if you are having any trouble with the mana denial Fish builds, but I have found them to be quite constricting sometimes.  An interesting sideboard card is Carpet of Flowers which can be very explosive against Null Rod Fish and BBS.  It helps color fix as the list expands towards 4 or 5 colors.

Nice work.

[Dr.KnowMaD]

I haven't looked this up yet so I was wondering if Glittering Wish works with Painter's Servant online?  If so it would enable some ridicules things.

I like the creativity going into this build, but it seems like some of it is getting out of focus.  Though I really like the welders.  They are a serious pain and just ruin people all day.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                            Keep out of the box
                                                                                                                                                                 Dr.KnowMaD

[nineisnoone]

If you're running red, I would put in Tin Street Hooligans if you want maindeck artifact removal.

I think hoping the one turn bounce will in the game off Proctor is a bit presumptive, but admittedly different decks, playstyles, and experiences.  I prefer Zealot to Proctor, easily.  Both are double colors, so unless you are running cards of double color in all three colors (not recommended), they're equally castable.

[Guli]

If you're running red, I would put in Tin Street Hooligans if you want maindeck artifact removal.

Running red and splashing an itsy bitsy red is not the same.

[Guli]

I haven't looked this up yet so I was wondering if Glittering Wish works with Painter's Servant online?  If so it would enable some ridicules things.

I like the creativity going into this build, but it seems like some of it is getting out of focus.  Though I really like the welders.  They are a serious pain and just ruin people all day.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                            Keep out of the box
                                                                                                                                                                 Dr.KnowMaD

Yes I know what you mean, but if you look at the core deck nothing changed. I have been toying around for the past weeks with the secondary part of the deck. With the painter/grind you are actually also staying in the theme. You don't let them play their win conditions or key cards by killing them on the spot. Welder is a great card and seriously improves the pile by prroviding answers

[brianpk80]

I haven't looked this up yet so I was wondering if Glittering Wish works with Painter's Servant online?  If so it would enable some ridicules things.

It would allow you to fetch any card removed from the game that doesn't match the color chosen by the Painter.  Blue cards would still be blue and irretrievable, but black cards for instance would become UB, and then targets for the Wish. 

I like the creativity going into this build, but it seems like some of it is getting out of focus. 

Not really.  The focus of Guli's deck is to use the most incisive defenses, protect them while entering play w. Vial, and protect them on the board w. Safekeeper.  Goblin Welder is one of the best 1 CC defensive plays a Fish build can run.  The shell becomes extremely ripe for a cheap low-interference "ooops I win" package.  It's very comparable to the Fish lists that would show up from time to time with Tinker/Colossus maindeck.  The lists weren't "losing focus," they just utilized a few open slots for an explosive alt-win.  Same principle applies here, except that Painter/Grind and Key/Vault are cheaper, more resilient, and less risky than flaunting a Tinker into an opponent's otherwise dead-in-hand Mana Drain. 

I think hoping the one turn bounce will in the game off Proctor is a bit presumptive, but admittedly different decks, playstyles, and experiences.  I prefer Zealot to Proctor, easily.  Both are double colors, so unless you are running cards of double color in all three colors (not recommended), they're equally castable.

I agree here.  I may have been unclear; I wouldn't recommend Proctor for this build.  My comment was about Proctor in modern Vial Ghouls lists, which have multiple different ways to recycle him and are blue based.  Here in Mr. Gaddock, Viridian Zealot is strictly superior because of the green mana base. 

[theLastGnu]

I haven't looked this up yet so I was wondering if Glittering Wish works with Painter's Servant online?  If so it would enable some ridicules things.

It would allow you to fetch any card from your sideboard that doesn't match the color chosen by the Painter.  Blue cards would still be blue and irretrievable, but black cards for instance would become UB, and then targets for the Wish. 

Incorrect, Painter's Servant doesn't affect the sideboard

[SiegeX]

I have to agree that I think this list is losing focus, but not because of going more colors but because of painter & grindstone.  It's bad enough that this combo is taking up 6 slots but you aren't even using the advantages Painter provides.  Fish needs to keep the pressure on, not draw half combo's that do nothing on their own.  

On a positive note, I like the Sylvan Safekeepers and I think you should throw one or two Riftstone Portals in the main, turning his drawback into a benefit (drawforward?).  The other nice thing is that you can put the riftstone into the GY as soon as you play it (and tap it for 1) and give some random dork shroud for a turn.  

Also, I'm really hating the the mana base.  I think you need to use less duals and more gemstone mines.  With some riftstones, you can run a full complement of strips and still tap them for G or W.

[SiegeX]

Incorrect, Painter's Servant doesn't affect the sideboard

Just for some clarification, the reason why it doesn't affect the sideboard even though it clearly says "all cards that aren't in play" is because the sideboard is not a zone in the comprehensive rules.  The sideboard only exists in tournament environments and thus is not apart of the comp rules.

[brianpk80]

Incorrect, Painter's Servant doesn't affect the sideboard

Just for some clarification, the reason why it doesn't affect the sideboard even though it clearly says "all cards that aren't in play" is because the sideboard is not a zone in the comprehensive rules.  The sideboard only exists in tournament environments and thus is not apart of the comp rules.

Ah indeed.  Thanks for the clarification, Siege.  In Magic terms, my pre-6E rules foundation has rendered me senile.   

The conversion to multicolored concept still holds though; all cards not being of the color named by Painter become multi-colored.  They can be cast with Pillar of the Paruns and can be fetched with Glittering Wish if they've been removed from the games by means other than being in one's sideboard from the start. 

There's probably something to be thought through re: Painter's Servant and Mana Maze.  That's definitely the Arcane Laboratory from hell. 

Rifstone Portals sound clever. 

[Darkenslight]

Would the combination of Canonist, Servant and Mana Maze be a semi-hard lock?  Just curious, as the onyl way around it would be to not play a spell during their turn.

[Guli]

I want more clarification on the statement that this deck has lost some focus. Can you give me some valid arguments. Every statement can be correct but it has to be supported by good points. The painter/grind takes 6 slots of the deck that is a considerable amount but that does not necessarily mean it will throw of everything in chaos. You still play your vial and bombs and in between you cast a grindstone which also has a big psychological effect. If they don't counter it then painter can be vialed in and it could be over right there on the spot. There are also minor synergies with Tarm and Welder. You can grindstone yourself EOT and painter could get in the grave which becomes a weldable target and  on your upkeep you can combo.
I don't like the Viridian in those slots. Maybe 2 Seal of cleansing would be better, it would give tarm a boost (it gets +2+2 if you target an artifact). It can't be vialed in but it is much more practical and less mana demanding (both color and quantity). Enlightened tutor is worth considering in this deck. Maybe 1 seal and 1 enlightened tutor would give more options. I also like Aura of Silence but the mana cost frightens me. I have a hard time to get more than 2 mana against prison/stax i rely on my basics and vial to cast my creatures. And against Will there are already enough main deck answers.

@SiegeX and Dr.KnowMaD
Please try to be more specific about the loss of focus. I didn't really experience this kind of problem in my games. There was a change in game style, I was always happy to see a welder in my opening hand because then I would not have to worry about Tinker or Canonist being forced.

[brianpk80]

Would the combination of Canonist, Servant and Mana Maze be a semi-hard lock?  Just curious, as the onyl way around it would be to not play a spell during their turn.

With or without Canonist, Painter + Mana Maze would only allow one spell to be played per turn.  It's distinct from Arcane Lab because it wouldn't allow "one spell per player," but rather "one spell period."  The pro of the effect would be an advantage if one could find a way to play a spell, any spell, on opponent's upkeep, especially if it's some sort of spell that can recur.  I'm not sure offhand whether Isochron Scepter can effectively accomplish that.  The con is that you wouldn't be able to protect your Painter or Mana Maze since if they were bounced/destroyed, you couldn't respond until one of them was out of play. 

[Dr.KnowMaD]

The problem that I see with mana maze is that your opponents will also get to play there spell.  If you have the strong and can keep them from playing already then?   Ginx.  The pros are good pros. 

@SiegeX and Dr.KnowMaD
Please try to be more specific about the loss of focus. I didn't really experience this kind of problem in my games. There was a change in game style, I was always happy to see a welder in my opening hand because then I would not have to worry about Tinker or Canonist being forced.

No problem, It really wasn't meant to be a negative statement, more just a topic of interest.  I was the tinkerfish kid and I always want to add what I can where I can an such, see what happens. Some times it works and other times its the pits.  When ever I played my dudes with tink I always wanted it to be- Go for tinker and protect it.  Many games it did work well, but it was more because the guys/gals in the deck were not and tinker to the rescue. (Guli-you said you liked that factor also i believe, understandable)  Though I still always figured way not just play a solid tinker build, a solid dudebuild.  With that said I was wondering if you have had any of this or it is smooth as silk? 
They are good Ideas.

Though I really like the welders.  They are a serious pain and just ruin people all day.

 

Notice I say this.  That was meant as complement.  I love playing welders, they happen to be one of my favorite creatures. (and one of my fav. flavor texts) One of the ones that's worth the summoning sickness.

About the wish, ya I looked it up right after.  So the sb is not a game zone.  Bummer.

Personally I really liked the Vexing Shusher idea.  If you want some protection with meat, and you are splashing red, why not?  Easy with the Riftstone Portals working.

Do you like Spirit Guides?  I find them very handy against mana denial.  Especially when I am low on moxen.

3 grind stones?  Is It to make you more sure you combo?  I know that sounds explanatory but I thought they were to ops if game A wasn't working or is it now more of a combo kill deck?

Last, doesn't having hardly any draw and no fetchouts kind of.. well.. suck.  Top deck like a champ, right.



                                                                                                                                                                          Bust the Box
                                                                                                                                                                          Dr.KnowMaD