A Perspective on the Health of Vintage: Why do You Attend Tournaments?

[Demonic Attorney]

I've noticed a striking decline in tournament attendance lately, capped off by attendance figures at Traviscon that frankly shocked me.  56 people for the prize support he was offering seems inconceivable, especially in light of the chatter in the announcement thread leading up to the event and Travis' past success as a TO.  But even in other tournaments local to the New England area, I'm seeing attendance in the 18-24 range where a few months ago it was closer to 32+.

Some people have pointed out that part of the decline is due to the end of summer vacation, which is fair enough.  What really stands out to me is how much more pronounced the change is this year as opposed to prior ones.  So, I post this poll as a resource for the Vintage community.  What single factor makes a player sleeve up his deck and drive out to play cards?  After making your selection in the poll, please elaborate by posting a reply below.  And of course, if there's more than one reason that motivates you to go to tournaments, pick the biggest one in the poll and talk about the others in your reply!

I'm hoping the poll will provide useful information to TO's that will help them in planning future events.

[Schonkreuz]

I have to base everything around work. If I can't get the day off (i work weekends most of the time) no go. If we do get to attend tournaments we usually bring a car full, we've been trying to go to a tournament at least every month or two( money is a BIG factor as well because there are very few tournaments around KY). We do have out local tournament, which is weekly so I get my magic fix more often then most. We've traveled to three tournaments this year, and hope to attend more in the future.

[Juggernaut GO]

I'll echo my response in the tournament thread I posted in.

I think that vintage has been going downhill for several years.

More and more people are growing out of it and moving on.
Less and less new players are picking up vintage.

I know personally, my enjoyment of the game is incredibly different from 2003 when I first started playing competitively.
In 2003, if I wasn't playing in a t1 tournament every weekend, I was having a bad time.
Now, I don't give a rats ass about playing magic any more.  I don't even own cards.  Even listening to peoples stories about magic, I just don't even give a fuck about what they are saying I'm just being polite.

I'm guessing that people are just moving on w/ their lives.  My tournament is definitely a good indication of the death of vintage in new england.  People that never used to miss tournaments simply didn't come.

[RaleighNCTourneys]

Geographic factors have always been the biggest constraint on my attending tourneys. I'd have loved to go to Travis' tourney if it wasn't a nightmare to actually get there.

If the truth is that Vintage is actually shrinking and will go away if nothing is done about it, I think a well thought-out, community-based effort to get wizards to allow 10-15 proxies for Type 1 would be exactly what Vintage needs to get tourneys rolling again and stay on the map permanently. I could only imagine how much renewed interest and excitement there would be for Vintage if this actually happended. And this wouldn't be the kind of excitement that lasts for a week after a new B&R change... this would be the kind that puts Vintage on the competetive MTG map forever. We all know how much fun Vintage can be, but it's awfully hard to get others to see that when the format is so inaccessable.

I know that Wizards/the DCI has a firm policy against proxies, but I really do believe that this is the absolute best way to "save" Vintage (if you believe it does need to be saved).

[Vegeta2711]

I enjoy Vintage, so I'll show up to the tournaments off and on. If I'm busy, I won't go. Work will dictate my time accordingly over something like Vintage tournaments.

I don't own very many cards, so I basically borrow everything I need for tournaments and am very lucky to have friends who have 90% of the stuff necessary; or I simply wouldn't play at all.

Playing Vintage in any fashion other than online has always been a nice 'bonus' for me, but otherwise it just becomes too much of a pain in the ass to get the shit together and go to the tournaments.

[Dr.KnowMaD]

Unfortunately my area has no official tournaments anymore.  The shops here in Minnesota that did host now don't because a lot of the vintage players in my area play legacy instead.  Its not worth it for them to run a tournament for ten or so hardcores.  In the immediate area I Am the vintage player.  I have gotten people to build decks, testing is the only thing that happens out of it though.

We do have turnys by ourselves (immediate group) but they're always a draft or some other hindering format like peasant/chaos and most of the time I'm not allowed to play anymore due to the fact so far I had won all of the ones I was invited to and there had been complaints that it wasn't fair.  (care bears) whatever.

I agree with a need to do something to bring more life back.  Proxys are a good way to allow more people to play and are allowed at lots of non WotC events but people still stopped showing up.  The unrestriction of poor moxs are good for way of allowing more mana for decks that can abuse them and maybe balance things a bit with the powered ones.  Still it doesn't seem enough.

                                                                                                                             Dr.KnowMaD

[Tha Gunslinga]

The problem I've been seeing recently is that while I can name plenty of people who have quit recently (last 6 months or so), I can't name nearly as many people who are getting INTO vintage.  I think people are just rotating out without an equal number rotating in.

[Yare]

Geographic problems is definitely the biggest factor, though level of competition is a close second. There have been vintage events not too far away from time to time, though they were sanctioned or something, so I wouldn't attend them. Unsanctioned with proxies though, and that is usually enough to reach the attendance threshold.

[Suicideking]

I like to go to tournaments with a higher level of competition.  Id rather lose to better players then win against bad ones.  The ICBM opens alway draw out the best players buafter a while playing everyone I know over and over in top8s gets a little old.

[Mantis]

If my friends don't go, I don't go. 4 years back or so we had a monthly tourney that was 15 minutes away, that was awesome. The TO stopped and I didn't play Vintage for a long time, now I'm trying to get to some tourneys but they are at +2 hours driving distance. Most weekends I work, some weekends I do get time off there are no tourneys, some weekends my friends don't go, so that just doesn't leave a whole lot of time. If only there was a Vintage or Legacy scene in Amsterdam, I mean it's the largest city in Holland and it has every facility but no damn Magic tournaments.

[LotusHead]

I go to about any T1 tournies I know about out here in NorCal.  But Eudemonia in Berkely is "Seasonal" (ie,starts in spring, ends in fall) and Adventures in Sacramento won't have one until January.

[Commandant]

Distance.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Maybe Vintage is just on the move.  Philadelphia got 65 players recently and there have been significant scheduling conflicts among and within Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh.  Not to mention that there are Ohio gamers going to many of the tournaments between Wisconsin and Philadelphia.

For myself in Virginia, I rarely drive more than three hours for a tournament so I'm usually waiting for Philly or Baltimore to throw something up.  I am going to Pittsburgh on Nov. 22, though, since many of my friends will be there from Ohio.

[T00L]

Friends are going.

All the people I played type 1 with quit or moved away.

[moxpearl]

Unfortunately my area has no official tournaments anymore.  The shops here in Minnesota that did host now don't because a lot of the vintage players in my area play legacy instead.  Its not worth it for them to run a tournament for ten or so hardcores.  In the immediate area I Am the vintage player.  I have gotten people to build decks, testing is the only thing that happens out of it though.

We do have turnys by ourselves (immediate group) but they're always a draft or some other hindering format like peasant/chaos and most of the time I'm not allowed to play anymore due to the fact so far I had won all of the ones I was invited to and there had been complaints that it wasn't fair.  (care bears) whatever.

I agree with a need to do something to bring more life back.  Proxys are a good way to allow more people to play and are allowed at lots of non WotC events but people still stopped showing up.  The unrestriction of poor moxs are good for way of allowing more mana for decks that can abuse them and maybe balance things a bit with the powered ones.  Still it doesn't seem enough.

                                                                                                                             Dr.KnowMaD

I'm also in Minnesota, and I echo Knowmad that the vintage scene here is dead.   Just a few years ago, monthly power tournaments were getting 32+ people, but now Legacy is the favored eternal format.  I question whether a local Magic community can support two eternal formats, since the two formats typically draw from the same player base.  And given Wizards supports Legacy with professional tournaments, ratings, coverage, and larger sanctioned tournaments, I fear it will be tough to turn the tide in this community.  As for me, I've been playing MTGO-Classic, where alliied dual lands have recently been released.  We're a far ways off from getting Urza block, but we have vamp, seal, crypt, necro, and consultation.  With Tempest coming out soon, and MED3 and 4 bringing the enemy duals and potentially drain/workshop/bazaar, we could have a quasi Vintage format forming.  Who knows whether power will be released, but with a family, I'm not going to drive outside the metro limits to go to a tournament.

Another problem with Vintage's accessibility is unless you know other vintage players, it's very hard to learn how to compete effectively.  At least with Legacy, you can port an Extended (or even Standard) deck and not get completely demolished.   With Vintage, it's the same players winning the local tournaments, and new players without connections get easily frustrated with what feels like throwing away $15-$30.

[The Atog Lord]

At TravisCon, I asked around about this very topic. The general consensus, from what I gather, is the new changes to the B/R list. If you recall, tournaments just a few months back drew larger crowds than today. Participation dropped off when the restrictions happened. Did anyone decide to play Vintage because they could only play with one Brainstorm? No. But plenty of folks at TravisCon dropped off once they could no longer play with four. I'll admit -- Legacy sure has become more appealing now that it is the only place where I can play with four Brainstorms. Man that card is fun. Though, restrictions or not, I love playing this format.

[Twaun007]

I attend tourneys so I can catch glimpses of Vintage Superstars and Divas!
Take these past tourney experiences that I have witnessed.

-A glorious beam of light sent forth from the heavens casts its glow upon our vintage savior Stephen "Q" Menendian as he set foot into the venue.
-Upon shuffling his opponents deck Stephan used his heavenly powers to transform his cards to all holo-foil versions instantly upping his pimp status.
-Menedian's sweet tear away track pants gleamed from the holy light which was cast forth due to the resolution of Yawgmoth's Will.

This shit is more classic that black and white photographs.

[LordHomerCat]

Number one (as stated in the other thread) is hanging out with friends.  I love the competitive aspect, I love the feeling of 'besting a fellow wizard', to put it in super nerd speak.  I am extremely competitive and I love almost any game where I can feel like I have control over the outcome, be it real sports or magic.  But, if it weren't for the people there, I wouldn't bother as that's just not enough.  Winning is awesome, but winning against a bunch of people I don't know is not really much fun.  I would probably rather lose and then go to Thurman's afterwards, as winning a vintage tournament just isn't very important in the bigger scheme of things, but getting to hang out with people who I only see a few times a year now is worthwhile.

Prizes are nice and make me feel less guilty about spending the money and all that, but I attend most tournaments I go to because I want to hang out with friends.

[yangtime]

I definitely attend tournaments that are within two to three hours of drive time.  Mostly just because I like playing the game.  Meeting new players and getting them interested in Vintage is always a good time.

In some instances, I'll try to attend tournaments that are farther out.  For me, it rarely has to do with cost or the format, since I'll play pretty much anything as long as we can go to Thurman's or play Type 4.  The urge to travel further, for me, is primarily motivated by the people at the events.  I'd agree with the dudesweat that has millions of cats in the statement that players make the event happen.  If it weren't for the swashbuckling and high-fives, I'd have left this game a long time ago.  If I can, I try to attend events out of state since I enjoy interacting with so many Vintage players.  Have you ever seen a match between me and Twaun?  You too would exclaim: "These guys from Ohio are idiots!"  Every time I play Matt Endress, we both have the worst plays our decks can produce.  Yet it's always a fun match and I always finish the match smiling, win or lose.  This happens with every player that I meet.  I had the pleasure to get beaten by Jeff Folinus and Jeff Carpenter in Philadelphia.  It was a great time just to play new folks that share a common hobby.

[UnholyAlliance]

Yes, I'll also echo the distance here as well. That is most important to me. I long to attend a large event but most are too far or are held on a Sunday that I can't get off work for. One day...
As this thread is titled a perspective on the health of Vintage, I may add that I think Gunslinga is right in that more people are rotating out than rotating in. I have a suspicion that more players would rotate in if they didn't see the format as an exclusive circle of lofty jerks. I know this to not be true, with some individual exceptions aside.
I have been trying to get my wife to play Vintage, but when she accompanies me to local tourneys on occasion, she witnesses isolated incidents of condesending remarks and haughty attitudes. With her unusually bad temper, she has all she can do to keep from making a scene. For these reasons I suspect she opts not to play. I can't help but to think maybe she is not alone.
I fear a select arrogant few are spoiling the format for the rest of us.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I should also note that one of the factors in my deciding to make a four-hour trip to Pittsburgh and back this weekend is the recent lower gas prices.  I don't mind the time or the mileage, but $50 in gas by myself will keep me at home.

[Samite Healer]

There is little doubt that the New England Type 1 scene was the strongest in the world in the 2003 era and I believe its decline is strongly correlated with the age of the players.  As many of the "staple" vintage players of New England graduated from college, individuals' responsibilities increases and people also moved back home.  As Travis has mentioned already, the people who used to never miss a tournament have moved on with their lives and few people have taken up vintage to replace them.

High Attendace/Prominent NE Players Gone:

- Me (Graduated, moved to Seattle, back to NY)
- Aaron Kerzner (Graduated high school, gave up cards in college)
- Eastman (Finished up college, moved to NY for Grad School)
- G.I. (Moved to Boston, more travel time to CT events but not a huge deal)
- Adam Bowers (Moved to Poland...with some of my cards)
- Ben Kowal (Moved in with Rebecca Guay and disappeared)
- Chris K (No idea what happened to the Earthcraft legend)
- Ric Flair (Moved to NH and quit 4-5 years ago now)
- Carl Winter (Not sure where he's at, but maybe playing WoW)
- Jeff Greene
- Matrix
- Jared Demick (A.K.A Tabernacle Master)
- Mike Lydon (Graduation + Girlfriend + WoW > Magic)
- Mike Daniels (Quit a few years ago)
- Doomhed (Quit to play WoW)
- Chris Hatcher (Quit to play WoW)
- Travis (Loss of interest, WoW)

These are just a few people, but you could find ALL of them at almost EVERY Waterbury or high-profile event for several years.  World of Warcraft has had a tremendous impact on the Magic player base because there is so much overlap.  If I had a choice of playing Type 1 for 8 hours or play Warcraft, I'd probably find the computer game more enjoyable than getting blown out by a combo deck on Turn 1 twice in a row or a Turn 1 Trinisphere.  When Travis and I introduced the game to Hatcher, he sold his collection and quit almost immediately.  Driving 2-3 hours, paying for a hotel, gas, and terrible sleep isn't nearly as fun as it used to be when all of my friends would show up.

During my college years I had INFINITE free time, and I would do almost anything to get it back.  At one point I had all my classes on Tuesday to Thursday, so I had 4 day weekends every weekend that allowed for lots of traveling.  The vast majority of people I played with have now also graduated from school and relocated, and have considerably less free time.

Here's another issue that nobody actually talks about:  The Backfiring of the Proxy System

In 2003 New England TO's and players decided it would be good for Type 1 to allow 5 proxies.  It worked, and that was great.  Shortly thereafter, they increased the limit to 8-10.  It worked and that was great.  Then, some enterprising people decided to offer unlimited proxies for $1 each and/or 15 proxies and completely killed the demand for expensive cards over time.  Sure, the prices are fine because the market is large enough, but this isn't about price.  It's about demand.

If I hosted a Type 1 tournament for $10,000 cash people would show up; however, if nobody cared about the prize nobody would bother coming.  Replace the prize with a box of Crayons and you'll see what I mean.  Back in the day winning a Mox or a Lotus was a HUGE deal and those cards weren't even half as expensive as they are today.  People needed the cards to compete and felt really accomplished when they did win something.  The "buyback" of the cards wasn't even offered, much less expected the way it is today.  I can't remember a time in recent history when there wasn't a prize split or a purchasing back of the cards.  Modern players would rather walk away with $100 or $200 cash than a piece of Power 9, and that is what is hurting vintage most of all.

[EnialisLiadon]

It's mostly distance for me--I live in the center of Illinois, and usually the closest vintage action is in Chicago.  Driving 2-3 hours is certainly do-able, but annoying for every single tournament I want to attend.  I wish there was a more local scene, but I'm pretty sure I'm about the only vintage player in my entire town.

I would prefer lots of smaller tournaments over a few vintage extravaganzas.  I personally am attracted by moxen, ancestrals and time walks; I have no power (I consider myself lucky to have a playset of drains), and winning a piece of power would be the coolest thing ever.  I would probably be that guy that no one likes because he won't agree to a 4-person split.

EDIT:  I suppose this response is more at home in the "Why do you NOT attend tournaments?" thread.

I attend tournaments mostly because vintage format that I have the most fun playing.  The community is awesome, and I'm sure I would enjoy that aspect of vintage if I actually knew anyone beyond Becker, Doug and Lyle H.

[andrewpate]

Forget 2-3 hours, from Tennessee it is typically 8-10.  I attend 1-2 tournaments a year for the sole reason that every single event is a massive undertaking I have to plan months in advance, schedule work around, etc.  If I lived in New England I'd play more like once a month minimum.

[T00L]

Here's another issue that nobody actually talks about:  The Backfiring of the Proxy System

I don't know how many people also are like this but I've never played magic for the prize. Its nice to win a mox or something to sell back to pay for a trip or something but I've only ever played competitive magic to beat my opponents and obtain recognition for being better than other people.

[Meddling Mike]

This is a tough question to answer, usually the reason I attend/don't attend tournaments is some combination of the factors listed in the poll for this thread. The most common draw for me to go to Magic tournaments is to hang out with my friends.

[pierce]

I play vintage tournaments because I love to cast Yawgmoths Will. 

Keeping the scene alive in CO has been difficult, but a worthwhile challange.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I've certainly noticed over the last year or so, but I never connected it with this particular issue: attendance at European tournaments.  I haven't crunched the numbers, but it looks like tournaments (especially in Italy and Spain) routinely get very high turn outs.  I imagine that TO's from across the pond could tell us a lot about managing events and maintaining communities/metagames.

2c

[Shock Wave]

I've certainly noticed over the last year or so, but I never connected it with this particular issue: attendance at European tournaments.  I haven't crunched the numbers, but it looks like tournaments (especially in Italy and Spain) routinely get very high turn outs.  I imagine that TO's from across the pond could tell us a lot about managing events and maintaining communities/metagames.

2c

Also note that these tournaments are ALL sanctioned, and yet they still manage to give out amazing prizes and have massive turnouts. Interesting.

[wiley]

I've certainly noticed over the last year or so, but I never connected it with this particular issue: attendance at European tournaments.  I haven't crunched the numbers, but it looks like tournaments (especially in Italy and Spain) routinely get very high turn outs.  I imagine that TO's from across the pond could tell us a lot about managing events and maintaining communities/metagames.

2c

I always chalked it up to denser populations than here in the states.  I wonder if there might be more behind it than that.