A Perspective on the Health of Vintage: Why do You NOT Attend Tournaments?

[Demonic Attorney]

This is the counterpart to my other thread about tournament attendance.  In that thread I asked what the biggest reason was for people to decide to clear their schedule, sleeve up their deck, drive out to location X, and play cards.  In this thread, I'm interested in hearing about why Vintage players choose to do the opposite-- when you decide it's just not the day for Vintage, what's the biggest reason?

As with the other thread, pick the biggest factor in the poll options, and please explain your choice in a reply.  If there's more than one reason you think is important, feel free to discuss the others in your reply too!

[Schonkreuz]

Honestly driving isn't as much an issue for me as my work schedule(we did go to WI for a tournament after all). I have to request days off weeks in advanced, and even then the lady that does our schedules forgets to look at the request off book most of the time. 

[Smmenen]

The issue for me the travel difficulty.

I have said this before, but if these tournaments were held in an area with an immediately accessible airport and where I could take a short taxi from the airport to hotel/tournament site, I would definitely have traveled to TravisCon.  They are too far for me to drive, and not sufficiently conveniently accessible to fly into. 

This is why I've only been to two Waterburys.   One of the one's I went to, I flew into the closest airport, which was far away, had to rent a car in sleet conditions, and it took me 60 minutes to drive what would normally be a 20 minute drive.   I will never do that again -- it was hell.   

[UnholyAlliance]

With my steady work schedule and a weekly Vintage tourney only 20 minutes away. I have little excuse for "not a day for Vintage" other then having a real bad day. Even then I'll try to pull it together and make it there.
However larger events are more difficult to make for a number of reasons. The first and foremost reason being those pesky family and friends. Scheduling trips out to TX, CO, and NY always seem more important then a trip to a Vintage event (or so thinks my wife).
Scheduling work around larger events becomes difficult for me because I work every weekend and those events are usually scheduled on Saturday (which I can swing) and on Sundays (cannot happen at all).
So I am sad to say that I have not yet made it out to a larger Vintage event in the area yet.

[IthilanorStPete]

I don't because I live in St. Petersburg, Florida, and there isn't a Vintage community...what, south of North Carolina?

[zeus-online]

Well i live in denmark, everyone plays legacy, noone plays vintage...So geographical factor

/Zeus

[Commandant]

Ever since Ground Zero in Norwood closed I have to drive and or commute via T to relatively out of the way locations to just play Magic. Type 1 tends to be even further away. Id have to say distance is the worst thing.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I voted metagame stagnation as the best answer related to my disaffection. My tournament attendance hasn't ever strictly correlated with my interest level, but I did come out of my central-Illinois hole to a few events when I was still excited about it, and went to smaller, local things a few times.

In short, metagame interest is a necessary but not, by itself, a sufficient condition to drive my attendance.

[StarOrc]

The biggest factor for me to not go to a tourney would be scheduling. This combined with the travelling distance is a major problem. I work at night now so having to wake up 3-4 hours before a tourney, ussually between 5 and 6 AM, on a saturday morning after working till Midnight is a bit tough. For a tournaments that are far enough away to warrant a hotel stay, I would have to take the friday previous to the event off and make myself unavailable for working saturday. On top of this adding the cost of a hotel room stay to the entrance fee starts to make them a bit more costly than is really worth it, at least for me.

Not to dimminish what Travis has done in the past, but I feel that if his most recent event had been in MA it would have had better attendance. I could be wrong but it feels like most of the players in the NE area are from MA, but also making it easier for the NH players to get to could have affected attendance as well.

In discussing this with a friend recently it makes sense that adding a hotel room stay for a good portion of the expected players could push them away from coming, especially with where the economy is and where it looks like its heading. For me coming up with $25-$30 to play in an event isn't ever an issue, but taking days off from work and spending $60-$80 is a bit more prohibitive. I would expect this to be true for alot of people.

Corey

[Twaun007]

Traveling distance takes my vote. We got a core group of Vintage assassins that travel to pretty much every tourney within 5 hours of C-Town. Once you break that 5 hour mark tourney's become harder and harder to attend. We should invent some type of teleporter. Man, that would be sick.

[Shock Wave]

In order of significance:

- Cost associated (travel + entry)
- Whether or not I like the TO
- Rules of the tournament - I do not like playing in events that cut to Top 16 for anything less than 80 people, and I do not approve of timing the T8 rounds. I generally avoid these events.

[LordHomerCat]

Number one for me is probably who else is going.  Like, if I would have to drive there myself, chances are extremely low that I'm gonna bother attending as it just takes so much away from the whole experience for me.  Distance is something of a factor, but if there's someone else willing to go along, I'll drive pretty much however far I have to in order to hang out and see people I don't get to hang out with more than every few months.  Like, I drove out to Travis Con 1 because there was a big group going from OH that I could ride with.  Directly related to that is prizes: taking some huge drive for a mox is a lot harder to justify.  As distance increases, prizes need to increase to keep it worthwhile from that perspective.

Really though, even if the tournament was like 30minutes away, if no one I knew was attending and such, I would be pretty unlikely to show up.  I like the game and I like vintage to be sure, but by far the best part is hanging out with my friends there.  I would prefer vintage, but if for instance a bunch of friends were going to be at a PTQ or GP or something, I am almost as likely to attend that even if the format isn't as much fun as I have more fun seeing friends that actually playing most of the time.

[yangtime]

For me, the most limiting factor is the cost to attend.  Most of this cost is not in the entry fee for the tournament, but (at least for me) it's in the cost to actually get to the tournament.  For example, a trip to Enfield, CT for me costs about $100 in gas alone.  A trip to Denver, CO costs about $225 in gas alone.  This doesn't account for added costs like vacation time from work, hotel costs and additional travel expenses (...such as driving past Chicago means eating at Giordano's!).  I always view these costs as sunk costs since I never plan on winning an event to offset the cost of the event.  I'm more likely to justify these costs if I can get more out of the event than a few hours of Magic.  I'm more willing to drive on my own to Baltimore, MD ($70 in gas) to play in a tournament and eat at the Blue Moon Cafe.  The same can be said for Primanti Brothers (Pittsburgh) and Giordano's (Chicago).

[brianpk80]

There used to be two to three tournaments weekly in Wilkes-Barre, Penn.  Usually T1 Saturday, Experimental formats  Sunday, and T2 on Tuesdays.  FNM as well existed.  I believe there was also a separate comparably big scene in Scranton, only 10 miles north, and another in Allentown, 45 miles south. 

It was a big very vibrant community and my brother & I had a lot of people we respected there, mostly around our age or a bit older.  It seems the community no longer exists though and the last time I went to a local event, it was very small and the characters were... hmmm... unhappy looking teenagers I suppose. 

Magic is very fun and very engrossing game, but when I get the urge to play, it's easier to find a friend and play online instead of spending the weekend in Philadelphia, commuting solo since everyone around here no longer plays.  Like LordHomerCat mentioned, driving to distant tournaments is fun with a group of friends but not so fun alone.  I've quit Magic and restarted many times and each time the barrier of re-entry is steeper, in terms of building a collection.  I have a hard time looking at Workshops selling for $300 when I sold mine for $9 apiece in 2000 or Bazaars, which were selling in Allentown for $6.00 in the 1990's.  The owner had a liberal trade in policy--$3 credit for an Ice Age pain land, so I gave him 12 and got 6 Bazaars. 

Cardwise, something about the neutering of Mirror Universe annoyed me on a gut level, and to this day, it still bothers me that they didn't at least try something to make Mirror kill functional.  I quit in disgust immediately after that change.  It probably wouldn't be competitive today but still, the lore of the game and intrigue of the cards was a big draw. 

Gamewise, the diversity is fairly healthy.  I think Wizards has done a great job designing most of its blocks this decade and I still checked new spoilers even when I had been away from the game for a long time.  I can't say the extreme noninteractivity of the Storm mechanic and Trinisphere aren't sour spots, but overall, it's not apocalyptic.   

So in sum, the reason I don't dedicate myself to tournaments these days is the diminished social factor, increased distance and expense (having been spoiled by weekly T1's 5 minutes away for half a decade), and the availability to get the same strategy fix online. 

[waywreth]

For me it's the location of the event. 
As a Massachusetts resident, there are certain places I'm just not willing to drive.  For example - if the event is in Boston I'm not going to attend because I hate fighting for parking (and they fact they doubled the tolls doesn't help either).  I'm not going to drive to CT either, that's simply too far for me to drive and I don't know anyone who lives close enough to me to carpool.

As a side note, I prefer cards as prizes rather than store credit.  Actually winning stuff (and having the option for people who want the cash buyout is nice) is enjoyable to me.  Finally, I don't own enough of the power cards to make a deck without proxies, so I'm thankful all the events near me are 15+ELD proxies, otherwise I couldn't put together a competitive deck.

[Webster]

Cost is the deciding factor.

I won't go if it's bad EV.

[ELD]

The main factor for me is definitely scheduling conflicts with my personal life.  I attend pretty much every New England Vintage event I can.  I actually plan around Vintage as much as possible.  I can't see ditching a Vintage event for any other format (except maybe a very prize heavy Legacy event)  I occasionally bring Kerwin to events, but overall I travel alone. 

New England has one of the best communities in the world.  With the amount of TO's and new people trying to break into running events, the prize pools alone are almost always worth making the effort.  The cooperation of most New England Vintage TO's to get on the same page with entry fees, proxies and coordination of dates has been a real boon to the community. 

Gas, travel and entry fee's are all relative to the prizes.  Since New England has so many events, we have tons of options when we want to play for big prizes.  I'm less inclined to travel more than an hour, but that is only because we have so many events.  Back in the day, I was happy to travel to anywhere just to play for some Power.  Now, we've had stretches where we literally have Mox tournaments every weekend, sometimes 2 per weekend.  When it's a toss up, between two events, I do weigh the risk/reward according to time and money, but often just go with the loyalty factor.  for example: I opted to go to Myriad over some start up tournament a while back.  The start up was not set up for long term success, offering crazy prizes and going head to head with an already scheduled event.  I might have made more going to the start up, but I'd rather support the established TO who will be there in the long run to support the community back. 

I've flown to Europe twice solely to play cards.  The cost of travel was all factored into the equation, and I believed it was worth it.  The prize pools were insane, with first place being more than my travel expenses.  The first time was definitely a learning experience, and the second time, I really applied what I learned.  I'll certainly be on the look out for European tournaments that could be worth the monetary risks. 

[Roxas]

This is probably a blasphemous thing to say around here, but lately, I've found the non-Eternal formats a lot more fun. Certainly at least part of that is simply a result of having vastly more people with whom to play those formats regularly, but I think those formats are also much more varied and dynamic. Playing Vintage today doesn't really feel much different than playing Vintage did several years ago (which I suppose can be considered part of the appeal, depending on how you look at it).

[T00L]

This is probably a blasphemous thing to say around here, but lately, I've found the non-Eternal formats a lot more fun. Certainly at least part of that is simply a result of having vastly more people with whom to play those format regularly, but I think those formats are also much more varied and dynamic. Playing Vintage today doesn't really feel much different than playing Vintage did several years ago (which I suppose can be considered part of the appeal, depending on how you look at it).

QFT

I personally LOVE Type 2 right now its so much fun and feels a lot more skill intensive than vintage is right now. For me its a combination of several factors that have kept me from attending vintage tournaments lately. The first is that the format feels pretty random right now. I've always judged the health of a format by the consistency of certain people making top 8 and right now it seems like its 8 different people every week. Even Rich is top 8ing less than he used to. Secondly the restrictions have seemed to produce a format where there is less decision making during the course of a game leading to more random outcomes. Thirdly the combination of the first two factors has driven the people I used to travel to events with away from type 1. CVD quit because he hates the format, The Future started a band and has school stuff to do, Ryan Marek got a girlfriend and caught up with college, and Brassman is in Georgia til next summer. Maybe i'll come back someday if the format gets more interesting or when Brassman comes back but until then its PTQ formats and Drafting for me

[desolutionist]

I'm pretty much in agreement with tool and roxas

[ReAnimator]

I play every format, and i love going with rogue decks of my own creation that are at least somewhat competitive. T2 is really fun right now, i've played 6 different decks since shards came out, so every week at T2 FNM i get to play something rogue and still compete for prizes and next week people won't know what i'm playing.

T1 happens once or twice a month here and the entry fees range from $25-40 depending on prizes, that's a pretty big entry fee to want to gamble with a rogue untested deck, and i generally don't like just sleeving up some known net deck as i don't really find it fun or rewarding. 

Since my attention isn't just focused on vintage i find it hard to do the testing necessary to feel like i have a shot at winning and not just throwing away my $30 with a rogue deck.

It's not really the money, it's just i don't feel like i have a realistic shot at winning at the moment, i'm just not as good as a lot of the top players in my area, and i haven't found a deck that can carry me or at least give me a shot at winning against those people. I guess i feel too out of touch. Also it's never just $30 it's food and gas money and spending a whole day out, just to be with friends, i shouldn't have to pay to see them, but hanging at a tourney is no fun, and no one would show up if moxes weren't' up for grabs.

I've won tournaments before but i was more in touch where i knew what to do with my rogue decks against the top of the field.

[hitman]

I've lost a lot of interest because tournaments are generally far away and few people, if any, are willing to go.  I drove to the last Meandeck Open by myself and regretted it.  I ended up driving over eight hours there and back.  I didn't get much sleep the night before and drove for what seemed like an eternity just to make a few bonehead mistakes that ended me up in the loser bracket for the tournament.  Honestly, I made those mistakes because the tournament was so far away and I had to wake up earlier to make the drive by myself and was tired when I got there.  Who wants to spend so much on gas, lose sleep, pay entry and drive alone just to punt matches to yourself?  If you've got a group of people, you can trade off driving and it's just a more lighthearted, fun experience. 

The problem is, the Vintage community has reduced the number of weekly tournaments that would produce local groups of players who would travel longer distances to hang out and play a fun format.  The think the key problem in Vintage right now is a lack of foundation in most of the country.  Everything needs a foundation to build on, including Magic the Gathering.  Without small, local, weekly tournaments to get people interested in the format and develop the skills to make players confident enough to even attend a larger tournament in the first place, Vintage will always suffer from fluctuating interest.  Older players will eventually get the urge to play Vintage at some point and will convince others to play and Vintage will see a resurgence but when they get tired of it, Vintage will decline.  If there was a more constant player base, there wouldn't be such a big problem. 

The whole argument of Vintage being boring right now or not competitive enough is bunk.  It's only boring because players don't have other players to play against, hence the lack of competition.  Players would have just as much fun if there was a thriving player base for Vintage like Type 2.  I'm pretty sure most players aren't out there saying to themselves, "How can I win the next Pro Tour?"  Most Magic players just play to have fun and enjoy a little success in the tournaments they do attend.  Vintage struggles so much because the entry barrier isn't just the price of the cards but the price and distance of the tournaments.  FNM has plenty of players because they make the entry barriers smaller.  If we had small, local, inexpensive, weekly tournaments, we'd have a much healthier format.

[vartemis]

I havent played in a tournament in ages, hell I havent touched my cards in a while too.  London has nothing in the way of a Vintage scene, and the majority of stuff south of Toronto is a bastardized vintage; ie 60 card no sideboard no power nine and wishes. Some have their own modified B/R list.

Id love to play more Vintage.  I own a ton of playables and some power, but just dont seem to have a group anymore. Everyone's settling down and spawning.

j

[Eastman]

0% due to prize structure.  This is a conversation I was having with a few people after traviscon -  why don't TOs just give the disclaimer: "I will not give out prizes in such a way that I lose money on the day."  I feel like most people understand the economics and aren't asking for obscene prizes in order to show at tourneys. 

[CrazyCarl]

It was WoW back in the day, now it's school + working to pay off loans.  Maybe in the future when I'm debt free I can stage a huge comeback.  Oh yeah, travel always sucked.  Now that gas prices have gone down a ton, mayhaps I will try to make an event in the future.

[Suicideking]

0% due to prize structure.  This is a conversation I was having with a few people after traviscon -  why don't TOs just give the disclaimer: "I will not give out prizes in such a way that I lose money on the day."  I feel like most people understand the economics and aren't asking for obscene prizes in order to show at tourneys. 

prize structure is an issue for me.  It just wasnt the biggest issue.  The main roblem with a weak prize structure is small turnout and I hate sitting in a 20 person grinder for a mox, and wasting an entire day if I don't win.

[IndykidVago]

I'm a professional Party Kid and Magic is my second life. The real Reason I don't make it to every midwest event is because they are always on Saturday or Sunday, the exact same days as almost all of the music events I attend.

[Changster]

I just voted for "Scheduling conflicts with my personal life" simply because I Magic really hasn't been apart of my life the last year.  However, when I was regularly attending tournaments, the thing that deterred me the most was distance.  I made it once out to some podunk town called Danville, NY (I think) from Oxford, OH and we all remember how that prize structure got screwed up.

Outside of distance, what encourages me to continue playing are definitely the people, the prize structure, and if friends are tagging along for the ride.

Prize structure was never an issue.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I may get booed for saying this, but it's how I feel.  The June '08 restrictions of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll I believe also contributed to recent attendance drop-offs.  After that, Vintage became something long time players didn't recognize anymore, and so the effort to drive the extra 20 miles or rescedule a family event waned.  It came as such a shock that a number of people just threw their hands up in the air and walked away.  The unrestrictions of October may help, but honestly, I didn't find any of those cards that were unrestricted to be all that interesting.  And the fact that Gush and especially Flash remained on the restricted list even thought they have no business being there now that BS, Ponder, and MS are all restricted still keeps a lot of players who participated in the June '07-June'08 meta doing other things.  My general feel for peeps in my area is that they are taking a break from Vintage now that a lot of their favorite cards have been been restricted.  They might come back at a future date.  They might not.

Peace,

-Troy

[LordHomerCat]

Heya,

I may get booed for saying this, but it's how I feel.  The June '08 restrictions of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll I believe also contributed to recent attendance drop-offs.  After that, Vintage became something long time players didn't recognize anymore, and so the effort to drive the extra 20 miles or rescedule a family event waned.  It came as such a shock that a number of people just threw their hands up in the air and walked away.  The unrestrictions of October may help, but honestly, I didn't find any of those cards that were unrestricted to be all that interesting.  And the fact that Gush and especially Flash remained on the restricted list even thought they have no business being there now that BS, Ponder, and MS are all restricted still keeps a lot of players who participated in the June '07-June'08 meta doing other things.  My general feel for peeps in my area is that they are taking a break from Vintage now that a lot of their favorite cards have been been restricted.  They might come back at a future date.  They might not.

Peace,

-Troy

Sorry but this I disagree with.  You state that after they killed BS and friends, the format became something that older players didn't recognize: seriously?  Top 4 of worlds was 2 Slaver and 2 TPS/Pitchlong decks.  All the big decks were the same big decks as pre-gush.  Long time vintage players are considerably more likely to be at home in the current format full of overpowering drain decks, a fast and efficient Ritual combo decks, scattered shop decks of all kinds and random aggro and hate decks using Goyf.  The gush meta was pretty unique in that there was no good drain deck, which made it the strangest meta I can think of in the modern era of vintage.  This format should seem pretty familiar to everyone who was playing before that, as you can play Drains, Rits, Shops, Bazaars, or Null Rods just like the modern vintage meta-wheel states.

I can understand if people just quit because brainstorm was killed, whether its logical or not.  I can accept that as a possibility for a small number of players.  But no long time vintage player looked at the post-gush Meta and didn't recognize it to be exactly the same meta as 2 years prior except with Gifts restricted.