A Perspective on the Health of Vintage: Why do You NOT Attend Tournaments?

[Tha Gunslinga]

Heya,

I may get booed for saying this, but it's how I feel.  The June '08 restrictions of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll I believe also contributed to recent attendance drop-offs.  After that, Vintage became something long time players didn't recognize anymore, and so the effort to drive the extra 20 miles or rescedule a family event waned. 

I was seeing massive turnouts up through the restrictions for a few months afterwards, so I think it was more the economy than the restrictions.

[LotusHead]

Now that gas prices are down, tourney attendence might go up.

I know that "I" have to worry about driving to and from a tourney just 50 miles away (plus $4 toll) is a big investment (my teammates are 15 year olds, not people with "jobs") so that was $20 minimum before I had to pony up 20 to 25 for entry (not to mention covering for one or both of said teammates).

Now that gas is $2 instead of $4, expenses is about $12.

It might sound petty, but some hard-core Vintage players are quite broke (me) and that stuff matters sometime.  I'm not complaining about entry fees, just the reality of driving out of town. (I know I have it easy compared to the drive 10+hours to tourney crowd)

Work schedules can also be a factor.  Many people do the m-f 9-5 thing, but I work Mon thru Thurs, plus Sat and the occasional Sun.

For example, I couldn't make the San Jose Superstars tourney  because I would have to take 70 bucks of income off work to make it, yet Adventures in Sacramento starts theirs at 3pm, and I can make those easy.

[Almighty]

I tend to work every weekend. And honestly, much as I enjoy Magic, the only time I'll go play it is when I am scheduled the weekend off. I'd probably rather work 95% of the time. Travel costs aren't much of an issue to me, as I always look to spend some money if I travel.

[andrewpate]

As I said in the other thread, travel is the beginning and the end of the conversation for me.  I love the format, I have a fine cardpool for deck construction, I always enjoy the Vintage tournament crowds, etc.  The one obstacle that makes me play 1-2 times a year instead of 10-15 like I'd prefer is the barrier of distance.  I live in Memphis, TN and lived in Nashville before that.  It typically takes me 8-10 hours to reach an event of any significance.  South of the Mason-Dixon there is simply no support.  I can rarely justify taking an entire weekend off from homework and spending $100 in gas and a $25 fee just to play for a Mox, with no chance to recoup my attendance costs unless I win 1st place.

[Meddling Mike]

I have neglected to go to various tourneys for all the reasons listed in the poll, so it's hard to nail down just one. I might also add Warcraft as sort of a complementary reason. There are times where I would attend tourneys despite the problems listed if playing Warcraft didn't exist as an alternative. Maybe if "Scheduling conflicts in your Magic life (tournaments in other formats)" were changed to "Scheduling conflicts in your gaming life (tournaments in other formats)"?

[Godder]

One could probably select "scheduling conflicts in one's personal life" in that instance, as WoW is not MTG, so it's personal.

[Meddling Mike]

One could probably select "scheduling conflicts in one's personal life" in that instance, as WoW is not MTG, so it's personal.

I suppose that's true, but I felt like the reasoning was closer to the other option in terms of what can be derived from it. Unless you're a hardcore raider WoW is never really a scheduling conflict. I kind of felt like choosing that answer indicated "I've got IRL shit going on and don't have time for Magic" where the other MTG formats option indicates "I've found another form of gaming entertainment that I prefer" which I think is much closer to what I think Warcraft is for most players. I felt that it was worth noting since, as Samite Healer pointed out in this thread's counterpart, Warcraft has had an effect on the MtG community that is worth judging seperately when trying to determine contributing factors.

[Ulthrion]

For me the main reason is personal life, because I usually have a rugby match on sundays, which is the day tournaments are organised here in The Netherlands.

Other reasons are that I don't have a complete deck yet, and don't have too much access to cards. I also don't have too much money for new cards, but the entry fees at least are reasonable here (around 10 euro's). The main reason remains my rugby matches on sundays though.

[Marske]

Well the biggest factor for me is personal life getting in the way of attending tournaments other than the ones I organize myself in the Netherlands and maybe a trip to Mol (Belgium) or some big event somewhere. Overall organizing tournaments yourself and other hobbys can get into the way of attending other events.

[Sextiger]

Well, it is about time some people have chimed in and admitted that restricting Brainstorm has basically killed the format.  The restrictions have set the format back 3-4 years and have not brought about any magnificent new arch types.   To anyone who has played vintage for a few years, killing off all types of fun decks and bringing back slaver as a power house was such a stupid move. 

Edit: Damn, just checked ebay, I didn't realize card prices on high priced singles have gone down.  As if the restrictions didn't already set back the value of my cards about a grand. 

Edit Number Two: BLAH BLAH STUPID ECONOMY. 

[Sporkcore]

I think a big thing is the fact that we have grown up. I know when I first got into Vintage, I was still a college student. That gave me a lot of time on weekends to be able to travel to tournaments. Now, I have an internship and a job where I'm busy most weekends and if I'm lucky, I can take off to go to a tournament. It's not easy to have a hobby like this and have bills to pay. If I'm taking a weekend off to go to something like a Mana Drain Open, that's at least 1 day I'm not going to be working and I'm going to have to hope I'm going to have enough money to pay bills. Unfortunately real life comes before any game I'd like to play and hopefully once I'm done with loans and have a steady job, I can play more often. This is the way life is and we all have to accept it.

[kenoc]

Because there are none within 100 miles - of Los Angeles.  Which is a pretty big city in the real world, but in magic, a backwater.

[Oath of Happy]

            OK, well sorry in advance for the length of this post, but I feel like there are things that need to be said that no one else will bring up.  I would have to say that the reason people don't care much for vintage anymore is that the format is too fast, too time consuming, and Wizards is printing all these new busted cards to impact the format.  Although I can not say this as a fact, I would guess that the great vintage players of the past got older and had responsibilities that were too great for them to keep up with vintage after it started to accelerate.  About 5 years ago, people could play type 1 while maintaining a job through this tough economic depression and have a wife and family.  Now, however, Wizards has made type 1 into a powered type 2 format, or powered legacy. 
           First they started coming out with broken new cards to make new broken decks.  Ths started around scourge and mirrodin, with the printing of tendrills and thirst for knowledge.  Control Slaver was huge so they printed cards like darkblast to combat welder decks.  Then Ichorid was dicovered. After Ichord started catching on, they made more cards to make Ichorid faster and better like Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, and Dread Return.  While doing that, they also created cards like leyline and jailer to combat ichorid.  So now, to be successful, you had to spend much more attention on the format, and buy cards like leyline to combat decks, whether you wanted to or not.  Then flash got unerrated and became a really powerful deck.  They didnt stop here, they gave it a better kill by printing the sliver to make the combo less graveyard dependent.  Then people wanted an instant speed kill so that they could Pact a Duress, so they made Revielark.  Now people needed to buy leylines, extirpates, and all kinds of cards as well as put a huge amount of time and effort into practicing these matchups.  Then they decided that blue was too powerful so they restricted the cantrips and merchant scroll.  Its my opinion that this was a good call, because i've always thought that restricting cards to slow down the turbo decks would bring the format closer to a format in which people could battle out a game rather than saying oh great better hand than you, I win.  Obviously, slowing down the format was not their goal, because they printed tezzeret and Ad Nauseam.  Taking out brainstorm and ponder may have made blue decks less consistent, but tezzeret makes blue decks that much easier to win off a good hand. Control is dead.  Anyone who thinks that 4 Force of Will and 4 Mana Drain in a deck means its a control deck is pretty close minded.  Blue decks are now combo decks with counters to help stop the opponent from going broken first/help stop your opponent from preventing you from going broken and help you go broken faster. 
           The generation of type 1 players is mostly people that remeber playing magic back in the old days like when Ice Age and Tempest were printed.  Therefore, these people are now adults, and can play magic as a fun hobby, but can not afford to put the time needed in for the current meta.  Newer generations of younger people are more into legacy and type 2 because thats what they grew up getting into.  So, in conclusion I think that one way to help bring the fun and popularity back to type 1, is to slow the format down.  Obviously there are certain cards like dream halls that didnt belong ont he restricted list, however if their are cards that dont currently need to be restricted because the metagame is faster than these cards, dont unrestricted them, but rather, restrict some of the cards that are faster.  And as far as blue being dominant, restricting brainstorm and ponder and merchant scroll helped a tiny bit, but the real way to slow down blue and make it fair is to restrict the super fast win packages it has.  This shouldn't stop at blue, it should continue to other speed decks like ichorid and tendrills decks.
             Lastly, heres what I would do for starters to help the meta: restrict Tezzeret, Painter, Thirst, Intution, Bridge From Below, Tendrills of Agony,  Pact of Negation, and Sphere of Resistence; unrestrict Ponder and Flash; and stop printing stupid cards to help the non-played colors combat blue and black, like gaddock teeg and ethersworn cannonist.  Wizards should let us discover our own cards and come up with our own decks instead of giving up obvious metagame bombs.  This is type 1, an eternal format that we have played and loved for over a decade, not a freakin football draft of the new eye poppers that constantly come out of these stupid new sets every few months.

[Vegeta2711]

Wall of text man. Nobody is going to read that monster. Break it up into readable chunks.

Side-note, I stopped going to my local events largely because I work on that day. And in the current economy getting paid > Small-ball Magic

[Oath of Happy]

Wall of text man. Nobody is going to read that monster. Break it up into readable chunks.

Side-note, I stopped going to my local events largely because I work on that day. And in the current economy getting paid > Small-ball Magic

Haha, good call. Better now?

[jro]

Tournaments cost time and money and I'd rather spend my time and money on other hobbies.  The time and money I do spend on Magic I'd rather spend on drafting, since my ROI is a known (albeit low) quantity.  I have no idea how much money I'd have to spend on playing Vintage seriously before I saw anything back at all.  Not to mention having to wake up before noon on weekends.  Yuck.

[Troy_Costisick]

Tournaments cost time and money and I'd rather spend my time and money on other hobbies.  The time and money I do spend on Magic I'd rather spend on drafting, since my ROI is a known (albeit low) quantity.  I have no idea how much money I'd have to spend on playing Vintage seriously before I saw anything back at all.  Not to mention having to wake up before noon on weekends.  Yuck.

Steve is going to be doing a series of articles on competitive yet budget friendly decks.  His first is a really agressive Suicide Black deck.  Here's the link to his article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/16819_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Vintage_On_A_Budget_Suicide_Black_2K9.html

If you don't have premium, I'm sure the decklist is out there.  Decklists aren't premium content, I don't believe.

Peace,

-Troy

[kenoc]

Cost of Vintage?  You guys who complain about cost have got to be kidding.  Assuming a 10 proxy tournaments, which means that the power 9 minus timetwister, gives you room for 2 more $100+ cards.

I calculate type 2 costs a hell of a lot more than Vintage.  After the 10 proxies, there are at most another 3 $100+ cards, and often no $100+ cards to get.  There may be a set of mana drains, then a bunch of cheaper cards.  To total cost I've added for my deck (still unfinished) is like $300 or so, which is mostly 2 drains and a time vault.  The rest will cost a fair amount, but if you plan on playing for awhile, its alot easier to get type 1 cards than type 2 cards, since type 2 cycles so fast.  When I was younger 2 years is a long time, but now, years go by very fast.  I blinked and I missed 2 sets.

The key part though is that the core of a type 1 deck doesn't change much, and the parts that you do need to add don't cost much.  Whereas Type 2 means buying another $300-400 card deck every 2 years (or trading for one, which takes time and still the money to get the trade stock).

So with 10 proxy tournaments (esp. with 15 proxy tournaments) the cost of type 1 is comparable.

The main problem is that there is no tournament scene.  And for kids to play, they will only play if they can use their current cards and trade for older cards.  But few people want to trade their type 1 playables for type 2 stuff.  So the kids play type 2, then extended, then legacy.

I suspect that kids will start playing type 1 - if stores want to push it.  And stores really should, because it constructed creates more money than drafts - no one buys singles for drafts.

[BigBarn]

Cost of Vintage?  You guys who complain about cost have got to be kidding.  Assuming a 10 proxy tournaments, which means that the power 9 minus timetwister, gives you room for 2 more $100+ cards.

I calculate type 2 costs a hell of a lot more than Vintage. 

The time and money I do spend on Magic I'd rather spend on drafting

I suspect that kids will start playing type 1 - if stores want to push it.  And stores really should, because it constructed creates more money than drafts - no one buys singles for drafts.

Constructed doesn't really create more money for stores than drafts do unless the constructed entry fee is very high.  Drafts being $15 a pop and having very cheap (re: boosters that were purchased in bulk) as prizes makes drafts very cost effective for any hobby shop.  Anyone can play, and you don't need to even bring a deck.

Drafting is great because for the price of a constructed entry fee you get your own 3 packs worth of cards and can randomly mise more if you do well.  It's much easier to draft 20 times that it is to drop $300 + entry fee to play in a type 1 event.

[kenoc]

Bigbarn,
What I mean by constructed bringing in more money is that without constructed play, players don't need cards, and if they don't need cards, they won't be buying singles nearly as much.  So to encourage single sales, stores need to hold constructed tournaments.

I agree that drafting is great - I draft 1-2 times a week.

I want to get into vintage because I've drafted alot, gotten alot of cards, and don't know what to do with them.  You can group them into 4x and sell them on ebay - I do that.  You can also trade for older stuff (since I can't keep up with the new stuff) - I do that too.  Older stuff holds value well, so you don't have situations where you take a break and lose alot of value on good cards because they rotated out (like my 3x vedalken shackles, which I didn't sell because I didn't have 4x).

But if you trade your draft rares for type 1 playables (but not the expensive ones), quickly you'll have a deck (assuming 15 proxies).  Assuming you are good at drafting and play for rares.  If not, then a bit longer.  But you will eventually.  And thats why I want to play type 1 - because I just don't have the time to keep up with card prices and want to play some constructed.  Plus I like playing with busted cards.  If I wanted to play with fair cards, I'd draft.

[T00L]

           First they started coming out with broken new cards to make new broken decks.  Ths started around scourge and mirrodin, with the printing of tendrills and thirst for knowledge.  Control Slaver was huge so they printed cards like darkblast to combat welder decks.  Then Ichorid was dicovered. After Ichord started catching on, they made more cards to make Ichorid faster and better like Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, and Dread Return.  While doing that, they also created cards like leyline and jailer to combat ichorid.

You worded this like you think that wizards R&D actually made cards to purposely effect type 1. Do you really think thats the case?

[Juggernaut GO]

wow, am I now officially the most quoted person in signatures?


I got mastriano, now I got barnsworth.    Pure win!

[M.Solymossy]

I downsized my collection a lot recently (banking 1100 in the process).

Right now I own a ton of the cheap cards, plus:

4 Delta's (Japanese)
1 strand (Japanese)
3 sea's  (UL)
1 academy (Japanese)
4 force of will  (portugese)

those are my money.  I still own ridic foriegn non-foil stuff, but there is no reason to own all that expensive stuff anymore.  And I can still play any deck I would want to play (Combo or Control builds) within proxies plus asking a couple friends for cards.

cost is NOT an issue.

[jro]

Steve is going to be doing a series of articles on competitive yet budget friendly decks.

The cost of cards isn't the expense I was most concerned with.  I've got maybe $1000-$1200 tied up in Magic cardboard; I'm sure I could play most decks in a 10 or 15 proxy environment just by trading for the right cards.  It's the costs for driving, lodging, etc., that I'm more worried about than cardboard.  If I drop some money on the latest tech, I can get most of that money back on ebay or whatever.  If I spend $80 on a hotel so I can play Waterbury, $50 for entry fees, and then scrub out, that money disappears in a weekend-long cardboard crack haze.  That same money would buy me about two months worth of once-a-week drafting, and I'd get at least some of it back in valuable singles or prize packs.  Of course, I don't really want singles or prize packs, so maybe that's not such a bonus after all.

But the reluctance to spend money isn't the only thing keeping me away.  There's no where for me to play Vintage in a "casually competitive" environment: no playtest group, no equivalent to FNM, no weekly tournaments, etc.  I do happen to live in Philadelphia, which is a pretty prime location for access to many Vintage tournaments, but it's still inconsistent at best.  I don't have much interest in playing online, and don't know anyone locally that plays Vintage seriously.  For a truly dedicated player these aren't major obstacles, but I guess ultimately playing Magic of any sort just isn't a huge priority for me.

[BigBarn]

There's no where for me to play Vintage in a "casually competitive" environment: no playtest group, no equivalent to FNM, no weekly tournaments, etc.  I do happen to live in Philadelphia, which is a pretty prime location for access to many Vintage tournaments, but it's still inconsistent at best.  I don't have much interest in playing online, and don't know anyone locally that plays Vintage seriously.  For a truly dedicated player these aren't major obstacles, but I guess ultimately playing Magic of any sort just isn't a huge priority for me.

There's a bunch of people in Philly who play a variety of formats (all of the formats, actually, including Legacy and Vintage).  If you're actually in Philly at least 4-5 stores I can think of - but then again, if you're not that dedicated it's not gonna happen

[Oath of Happy]

           First they started coming out with broken new cards to make new broken decks.  Ths started around scourge and mirrodin, with the printing of tendrills and thirst for knowledge.  Control Slaver was huge so they printed cards like darkblast to combat welder decks.  Then Ichorid was dicovered. After Ichord started catching on, they made more cards to make Ichorid faster and better like Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, and Dread Return.  While doing that, they also created cards like leyline and jailer to combat ichorid.

You worded this like you think that wizards R&D actually made cards to purposely effect type 1. Do you really think thats the case?

Yes, I'm 98 percent sure that they printed cards to effect type 1, with the other 2 percent being that they printed cards purposely to be put into established decks that they saw people playing in other formats which just happened to be similar to decks played in type 1.

[jro]

There's a bunch of people in Philly who play a variety of formats (all of the formats, actually, including Legacy and Vintage).  If you're actually in Philly at least 4-5 stores I can think of - but then again, if you're not that dedicated it's not gonna happen

Well see that's just it: I'm actually in Philly.  Not Doylestown, or Blue Bell, or West Chester, etc., all of which are about an hour from me.  Most of the Magic card playing is done in the western suburbs of the city, not in the city's Northeast.  I'm pretty sure the only place in the Northeast that does anything is The Garden of Earthly Delights, and my past experience is that that is a physically unpleasant place to be.  There's a shop called Bagged and Boarded that's 5 minutes from my house that does occasional drafts, although the competition level is pretty low.  I play drafts on-and-off at both Brave New Worlds locations (Willow Grove and Center City).  I know some people that play Blue Bell and the like, but again the situation just doesn't suit my needs.  If I could go play Vintage on a weeknight from like 6pm-12am once a week at a nice store within 30 minutes of where I live, with people that I like, I'd probably play it instead of (or in addition to) drafts.  But that just doesn't exist.

[T00L]

           First they started coming out with broken new cards to make new broken decks.  Ths started around scourge and mirrodin, with the printing of tendrills and thirst for knowledge.  Control Slaver was huge so they printed cards like darkblast to combat welder decks.  Then Ichorid was dicovered. After Ichord started catching on, they made more cards to make Ichorid faster and better like Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, and Dread Return.  While doing that, they also created cards like leyline and jailer to combat ichorid.

You worded this like you think that wizards R&D actually made cards to purposely effect type 1. Do you really think thats the case?

Yes, I'm 98 percent sure that they printed cards to effect type 1, with the other 2 percent being that they printed cards purposely to be put into established decks that they saw people playing in other formats which just happened to be similar to decks played in type 1.

oh ok just wanted to be sure

[LordHomerCat]

           First they started coming out with broken new cards to make new broken decks.  Ths started around scourge and mirrodin, with the printing of tendrills and thirst for knowledge.  Control Slaver was huge so they printed cards like darkblast to combat welder decks.  Then Ichorid was dicovered. After Ichord started catching on, they made more cards to make Ichorid faster and better like Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, and Dread Return.  While doing that, they also created cards like leyline and jailer to combat ichorid.

You worded this like you think that wizards R&D actually made cards to purposely effect type 1. Do you really think thats the case?

Yes, I'm 98 percent sure that they printed cards to effect type 1, with the other 2 percent being that they printed cards purposely to be put into established decks that they saw people playing in other formats which just happened to be similar to decks played in type 1.

I hate to get into this argument, but since Chalice and maybe 3Sphere, what are some examples?  Kataki, Teeg, all of Future Sight, Canonist, all these creatures are aimed at Extended much more than Standard.  They all see a ton more play there (for good reason) and are much better hosers for strategies in that format then Eternal stuff.  I'm kinda curious what cards you had in mind when you said that.  All the good T1 cards I can think of since like Mirrodin were basically even better in other formats (even Tezzeret top8'ed a Pro Tour).

[breed]

Well, the main problem here in south of France, is that all T1 tournaments are at least at 3h30 drivin. So that's not always easy to attend.
We lack of TO and vintage players.