T1 Event - Philly Area - 15 Proxy - 1/3/09 - Workshop/Bazaar

[MISTERTREK]

CCGames in conjunction with Alternate Universes is pleased to host our next big T1 tournament in the Philadelphia area!!

Saturday, 1/03/2009 at 10:00 AM

Type 1 format with 15 proxies. 1st place wins a Mishra's Workshop & 2nd place wins a Bazaar of Baghdad. 3rd & 4th Place wins $20 table credit. If we get 40+ players, 5th-8th win a Shards of Alara draft set. Deck registration from 9am-10am, round 1 begins at 10am.

EVENT WILL BE HELD AT ALTERNATE UNIVERSES IN THE DEKALB PLAZA ON RT. 202, BLUE BELL, PA.

Entry fee: $20.00 

Format: Type 1 with 15 proxies, 5-6  rounds with cut to top 8.

Location: Alternate Universes on Route 202  in Blue Bell, Pa (Visit our web site for directions)

When: Saturday, January 3rd, 2009

Sign-in & deck registration begins promptly at 9am. Round 1 starts at 10am.

Save time at registration by bringing your preprinted deck list. **Please indicate proxied cards.**

Prize structure:

1st place: Mishra's Workshop

2nd place: Bazaar of Baghdad

3rd place: $20 table credit

4th place: $20 table credit

40+ players: 5th place - 8th place: Shards of Alara Draft Set

Prizes are guaranteed, but will be scaled upward based on attendance.

We will also be running an EDH side event at the conclusion of the T1 events Swiss rounds. 1st place will win a TBA. Entry fee will be $10 if you played in the main event or $15 otherwise.

Cost of the main event at the door is $20.

Vendor table will be available for purchases and sales.

And, more exciting events will be held throughout the day.

Come and join many of the Mid-Atlantic's best Type 1 players. Our events are always fun and competative.

Please visit www.collegevillecards.com for more info and directions. We look forward to seeing you there!

[psyburat]

Thanks for the heads up, I got the day off from work and will be there.

[mr.grim]

Should be another fun day in bb! question ... Will this be the first event for the points to start.?

[Nehptis]

I didn't realize this had already been posted since it was so far down in the forum.  Any updates on Prizes?

[MISTERTREK]

Prize support now posted. Entry fee for this event has be LOWERED!! Happy Holidays to all, see you on the 3rd.

[MISTERTREK]

One week until our next event. Hope everyone is having a great holiday season. See you on the 3rd.

[MISTERTREK]

HAPPY NEW YEAR !!  Hope to see everyone for our next event on Saturday.

[Oath of Happy]

Can you post the adress and phone number to the store for us? The website's directions and contact page isn't working and I'd like to google directions ahead of time to get a time estimate for the drive.  Thanks, and Happy New Year to you as well 

[Iron_Chef]

here's a mapquest link (just add a starting address)

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?address=1530%20Dekalb%20Pike&city=Blue%20Bell&state=PA&zipcode=19422-3373&country=US&title=%3Cb%20class=%22fn%20org%22%3E1530%20Dekalb%20Pike%3C/b%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%20%3Cspan%20style=%22display:inline;margin%

and here's the address if for some reason that doesn't work

DeKalb Shopping Center
1530 DeKalb Pike ~ Route 202
Store #5 ~ (Behind DeKalb Produce)
Blue Bell, Pennsylvania 19422

[Fortifitakitors]

Hi MISTERTREK! I will be driving 2 and a half hours to get to this store, it would be helpful if you could post your phone number so that one could call you to verify such an event and ask some questions. Your contact info is also not on your website which also makes it difficult to locate the location of your store. Thank you for your time.

-Fort

[Legrow]

Hi MISTERTREK! I will be driving 2 and a half hours to get to this store, it would be helpful if you could post your phone number so that one could call you to verify such an event and ask some questions. Your contact info is also not on your website which also makes it difficult to locate the location of your store. Thank you for your time.

-Fort

610-277-7251 is the phone number for the store that the event will be held at.  Someone else has already given you the address and directions.  I suggest if you have questions or need directions, you call the store.

[MISTERTREK]

Sorry, I use to have my number posted on the site that we were using for preregistration, but we stopped using them as of this event and I hadn't updated my web site. It's now done. You can reach me anytime on my cell at 610-613-0096.

Thanks & hope to see you tomorrow

Mike

[sundering jerk]

This was a really compeditive Meta. Well worth the 5 hour drive.

[Prospero]

I had a great time, and will definitely be back the next time around.  Prize support that increases with attendance would have been cool though.  With 52 people, I'd hoped for more than 50 credit at 3rd/4th.

Will the top 8 lists be posted?  Does this event count towards the new rating system?

[Smmenen]

If the top 8 is posted, it will count towards the new ranking system.

Post them!

[Webster]

I had a great time, and will definitely be back the next time around.  Prize support that increases with attendance would have been cool though.  With 52 people, I'd hoped for more than 50 credit at 3rd/4th.

Will the top 8 lists be posted?  Does this event count towards the new rating system?

That prize support sure was something else...

52 people @ 20 each --> 1040 

1040 entry  -1 shop@200  -1 bazaar@170  -3rd/4th credit@100 total  -4 draft sets@30total --> 540 left over.

What a rake. I'm amazed.

[TD]

I had a great time, and will definitely be back the next time around.  Prize support that increases with attendance would have been cool though.  With 52 people, I'd hoped for more than 50 credit at 3rd/4th.

Will the top 8 lists be posted?  Does this event count towards the new rating system?

That prize support sure was something else...

52 people @ 20 each --> 1040 

1040 entry  -1 shop@200  -1 bazaar@170  -3rd/4th credit@100 total  -4 draft sets@30total --> 540 left over.

What a rake. I'm amazed.

Im not sure why this shocks people anymore. Mike does this at nearly every event he runs. Im sure he'll tell you that he got the shop at higher than $200 and the bazaar at higher than $170 and that he lost money on the last event he ran. This may all be true but what he doesn't tell you is that this is roughly his 26th event, most of which I've been to, and I can only think of maybe 4 instances where he didn't pull in at least a $300 profit. Another thing to think about is the T2 event he runs at the same time and the dealer table he runs at the event. The real problem is that mike has no competition. Nobody else is running a vintage tournament once a month in the PA/NJ area. It wouldn't be hard to offer better prize support and clearly there is a demand for vintage tournaments in the area when mike is getting over 40 players for this prize.

[Smmenen]

Complain.

And do it in a rational, smart way.   

[TD]

Complain.

And do it in a rational, smart way.   

This hasn't been the first time his prize structure has been called into question. I know I've made posts on his other announcement threads about the prize structure. His response is usually that he will up the prize and that he runs tournaments to make money. His idea of upping the prize is more dealer credit I guess. 

[MISTERTREK]

OK, I guess it's time to set the record straight. MIKE RUNS EVENTS TO MAKE MONEY!!! Clear and honest. Now why, well because that what I am in business to do. I don't hear people complaining when Grey Matter or SCG make much more money at their events??? Other T1 events may seem like they are charity run events, but someone is running the event for more than just having a good time. I don't own a store, so I can't run an event, with the flipside of making money on other sales while the players are there or return to play other things. I am not a player, so I don't win prizes that I will turn around and use as my prizes. I don't deal at other events, so I'm not out there buying cards at wholesale. And, I am there for 12 hours on my day off from work, plus prep time before the event.

So what is the answer to what I guess is now a problem. I don't know. Put yourself in my shoes and give me a LOGICAL solution. Everyone knows that I have appreciated all the loyalty that our players have shown over the years, and that I try running a fun event that is well organized and competative. I have made many friends over the past 3 years, and enjoy seeing and talking to you at my events and when we run into each other elsewhere. So lets talk some more and see what we come up with.

[MISTERTREK]

If the top 8 is posted, it will count towards the new ranking system.

Post them!

What rating system?? Our Champions awards rankings??

I will get the deck lists posted when I have some free time in the next few weeks.

[Oath of Happy]

I drove over 3 hours to get to this event and paid 20 dollars for entry fee, and about 20 dollars worth of gas.  The prize structure could have been a little bit better, however, 40 dollars for a day of vintage in a competetive environment is well worth it.  As far as the prize stucture being to small, first and second were enough of an incentive to be excited to compete.  My guess is that the prize structure was lowered because of the burn that the TO took from the huge prize structure of the last tourney with 40 duals, time walk, twister, plus other good cards.  If the TO can figure out a way to balance the prize support from tournament to tournament than that would greatly improve the events, but this event was still great, and PROPS ON GETTING THE TIME CLOCK.  I wish every tourney had a time clock, so that every one could galnce up at how much time was left in the round, and you wouldnt seem like a jerk if you were encouraging your opponent to play faster.

[Demonic Attorney]

What rating system?? Our Champions awards rankings??

I will get the deck lists posted when I have some free time in the next few weeks.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37059.0

[Smmenen]

OK, I guess it's time to set the record straight. MIKE RUNS EVENTS TO MAKE MONEY!!! Clear and honest. Now why, well because that what I am in business to do. I don't hear people complaining when Grey Matter or SCG make much more money at their events??? Other T1 events may seem like they are charity run events, but someone is running the event for more than just having a good time. I don't own a store, so I can't run an event, with the flipside of making money on other sales while the players are there or return to play other things. I am not a player, so I don't win prizes that I will turn around and use as my prizes. I don't deal at other events, so I'm not out there buying cards at wholesale. And, I am there for 12 hours on my day off from work, plus prep time before the event.

So what is the answer to what I guess is now a problem. I don't know. Put yourself in my shoes and give me a LOGICAL solution. Everyone knows that I have appreciated all the loyalty that our players have shown over the years, and that I try running a fun event that is well organized and competative. I have made many friends over the past 3 years, and enjoy seeing and talking to you at my events and when we run into each other elsewhere. So lets talk some more and see what we come up with.

exactly, I don't have a problem at all with TOs making money.  I hope they make money hand over fist.     I just think that even MORE money can be made, paradoxically, by making players feel like they are getting a fair deal by increasing tournament attendance over time. 

[mr.grim]

the person who won the shop,did he complain? I don't think he did. So if mike makes money good for him. The point is we all know what we are playing for weeks in advance. If you are not in the prizes don't play. Anyway you look at it, twenty bucks for a shop or bazaar is a good day. The only thing i don't care for is the draft sets . If you are going to give 5-8Th prizes make them more useful. Fetchlands, or playmats something worth being in the top eight for.

[Fester]

So if mike makes money good for him. The point is we all know what we are playing for weeks in advance. If you are not in the prizes don't play.

I think that's the point.  I choose not to make the drive and participate in these events when the prize support is poor in relation to the number of players participating.  I guess it's alot like pot odds in poker.  If I estimate my chances of making money during one of these tournaments at 8-1 and the cost is $50 (Gas, Tolls & Entry) then I need a prize of $400 to break even on the eight times I participate in.  While I'll chalk up some of the lost profit to just entertainment expense I have a very hard time justifying making the trip for less then half of my break even point.  ((Workshop+Bazaar)%2=~$175)

Does Mike miss my attendance revenue?   I'm sure he does.

Does Mike think there's many more players like me who choose not to attend because of medicore payouts?  That's the question.

[ashiXIII]

he person who won the shop,did he complain? I don't think he did. So if mike makes money good for him. The point is we all know what we are playing for weeks in advance. If you are not in the prizes don't play. Anyway you look at it, twenty bucks for a shop or bazaar is a good day. The only thing i don't care for is the draft sets . If you are going to give 5-8Th prizes make them more useful. Fetchlands, or playmats something worth being in the top eight for.

you're missing the point. if you're there JUST to play Vintage, then the prize doesn't matter whether it's a full playset of Beta power 9, or just a foil Brainstorm. And you're not paying twenty bucks for a shop or bazaar. you're paying 20 bucks + gas + food etc for a SHOT at a bazaar or shop. If we average out the prizes to be worth $200 (somewhat ignoring the lower payouts, but also ignoring costs like gas and food) then you're paying 20 bucks for under $8 in EV (expected value, and assuming you have an equal chance of anyone else as winning, 1/26, as first and second are about the same.) That's a net loss of $12 on the day, on average. Pretty poor in my opinion.

I think that's the point.  I choose not to make the drive and participate in these events when the prize support is poor in relation to the number of players participating.  I guess it's alot like pot odds in poker.  If I estimate my chances of making money during one of these tournaments at 8-1 and the cost is $50 (Gas, Tolls & Entry) then I need a prize of $400 to break even on the eight times I participate in.  While I'll chalk up some of the lost profit to just entertainment expense I have a very hard time justifying making the trip for less then half of my break even point.  ((Workshop+Bazaar)%2=~$175)

Does Mike miss my attendance revenue?   I'm sure he does.

Does Mike think there's many more players like me who choose not to attend because of medicore payouts?  That's the question.

This is accurate overall, but if you're just playing to make money, you're doing it wrong. There are many other things you can do with a full Saturday to make money. That being said, I obviously agree that I want the tournament to be worth my time, but just getting to play Vintage in a competitive environment IS worth something to me.



Also, I don't mind a TO making money. I do kind of mind them making more money than the prize support they give out. Also, I think when you run events to make money and not for fun, you pretty much give up all rights to complain, and at the same time have to take complaints with a lot more seriousness. If your players are unhappy, it hurts your revenue stream, which isn't the case if you're just running events for fun.

and Mike, just some (hopefully) constructive feedback from me: I think most of your events in 2007 were better than most of your events in 2008. At least, I was happier with them. (Save the Dec 2008 one. You had awesome prize support and it sucks you didn't get a bigger turn out) For the most part, the prizes you gave out were similiar, but the cost of your events in 2008 was higher.
     I remember when you asked the players if they would mind raising the entry fee in order to raise the first place prize to a Lotus, and everyone agreed they wanted to. After that, you left the price at the raised entry fee, but nobody seemed to mind as you were still giving out good prizes (double mox, etc) A while after that, you effectively raised the entry fee again (by no longer offering the $5 off with preregistration) while simultaneously seeming to cut your prize support (going back to single mox tournaments) This is where I feel a lot of your players started to feel like these events were no longer a good value.

You've done some things as a TO that stand out as really good (adding a mox to that Lotus tournament because of the high turnout, not trying to renege or even griping about giving out the full set of duals in Dec, as well as surprising everyone with free cake) but the flip side is I think you really disappointed a lot of people a few times, the most obvious being not upping the prize support more significantly in your most recent tournament.

Another note, I think a lot of players get frustrated/annoyed at the amount of time it sometimes takes you to get the results up, and this will only worsen with the new player rating crap that TMD is doing. I personally don't care if you never post results, but I think to make those players happy, you should have a results thread w/ top 8 decklists within 2 days after the event, even if you have to give them Desolutionist. (You shouldn't though. It should seriously take about 20-25 minutes to make a thread with the final swiss standings, playoff results, and top 8 lists.)

Done now. Sorry for being so long-winded.


EDIT: fixed my math

[Nehptis]

This is accurate overall, but if you're just playing to make money, you're doing it wrong. There are many other things you can do with a full Saturday to make money. That being said, I obviously agree that I want the tournament to be worth my time, but just getting to play Vintage in a competitive environment IS worth something to me.

Exactly!

Mike's events are great.  The entry fee is fine.  The prize support is good and the events are well run.  That's a formula for an enjoyable day of MTG....win or lose.

I think some players get upset when they drive 3+ hrs, scrub out and then drop.  To me dropping is a waste of money.  I play every round, regardless of my ranking.  Sometimes, that means 5 or 6 rounds of Swiss and sometimes that means additional Top 8 matches, as well.  For me that's maximizing my investment and my enjoyment factor.

[ashiXIII]

This is accurate overall, but if you're just playing to make money, you're doing it wrong. There are many other things you can do with a full Saturday to make money. That being said, I obviously agree that I want the tournament to be worth my time, but just getting to play Vintage in a competitive environment IS worth something to me.

Exactly!

Mike's events are great.  The entry fee is fine.  The prize support is good and the events are well run.  That's a formula for an enjoyable day of MTG....win or lose.

I think some players get upset when they drive 3+ hrs, scrub out and then drop.  To me dropping is a waste of money.  I play every round, regardless of my ranking.  Sometimes, that means 5 or 6 rounds of Swiss and sometimes that means additional Top 8 matches, as well.  For me that's maximizing my investment and my enjoyment factor.

I don't think you read my whole post. Playing to make money is stupid, but I still want a prize structure that puts at least half of the entry fees into it, and even half is kind of low.

[Iron_Chef]

I feel (as both a dealer, player, and TO that runs Vintage events) that prizes should be almost 1:1 with entry fees AFTER expenses (renting a venue, etc) with prizes calculated in at a fairly high retail value (shop @ 225, bazaar @175, etc).  My logic is that hopefully with some prior planning I'd be able to pick up cards such as these for less then what they can be sold for, and my profit is the difference.  Then again, if I'm going to run a tournament, I do so both to make money and for the enjoyment of getting everyone together and having a good time.  If prizes were upped due to attendance at his last event, even just an upgrade to a Mox (which EVERYONE knows I have available), everyone would have been much happier.  Again, just my 2 cents.  Mike's events are fun, and I will continue to attend regardless.

-Nick