Time Vault Combo

[orgcandman]

Any reason you're still playing thirst instead of a 2cc draw spell? I'm looking specifically at AK, since you're running 4x intuition (ZOMG).  Maybe Deep Analysis as well, since that'll net you more cards for slightly more and at sorcery speed (4 mana + 6 life = 4 cards probably isn't so hot).

I dunno...I could be an idiot for missing something obvious, but 4x intuition certainly does warrant taking a look at non-thirst draw options. It also frees you from having to run 2x key to keep the artifact count high.

EDIT: Oops, missed your initial discussion on them. I don't think dismissing them outright because they're "not combo-y enough for me" is a good argument for not testing them. Tog was a similar combo-control deck running intuitions and it packed in 4 AK and 2 DA. I think it's probably a good thing to consider.

[meadbert]

-Do you think the 14th land is needed? I have a lot of hands with either too few or too many lands. It just sucks not having 4 brainstorms available anymore.

If you run Ponder and replace some number of Drains with some combination of Duress, Thoughtseize and Misdirection then that would be fine.  13 lands and 4 Drains do not play well together.
If you drop Drains for Duress effects you might want a second win condition.  I tried this once and just hated losing to Fish when they Mysticaled for Swords or something silly like that.

-do you like the 8 fetchlands?

The life loss does not matter and cards that shut off tutors are annoying enough to beat me already.
The flexibility to get the card you want is huge.  I sort of want a second Island, but in many cases drawing an Island is just bad because you need either black or white.
Also, 8 fetches helps slightly with the mana flooding issue that you mentioned.
The reason many decks do not run so many fetches is because their Stax plan involves getting some number of basics into play so they can use mass bounce to win.
This deck runs white so it instead uses the Sacred Ground strategy for Stax.  The Sacred Ground strategy does not rely on basics at all.

Running large numbers of Basics against Fish is not particularly helpful.  Fish does not recur its Wastelands.  Instead, Fish is looking to play a Wasteland once to slow down an opponent.  As the opponent you can either play non Duals in which case you are stuck with Mono Blue or you can concede that fact that you will be hit by a Wasteland and just play plenty of Duals.  1 Island is really all that is needed against Fish.  Some would argue that you want a second so you can keep Drain up.  I actually believe that in general you want to fetch an Island first against Fish and then start grabbing duals.  Drain is fairly weak against Fish in that it does not generate much mana and Fish does not have certain bombs (Yawg, Tinker, Gifts, Bargains, etc) that it needs to resolve.  Instead Fish's cards are powered more equally.  The trick against Fish is getting 3 mana up so you can cast Thirsts and Intuitions.  With a Mox this requires 1 Basic and then a dual that you just dropped.

-How good is Imperial Seal? I have not been playing it and am ok so far.

Imperial Seal is about the worst card in the deck but it allows a few plays.  As an example it is common to start with Mystical or Vamp for Recall.  Then later in the game you may have Intuition and want Yawg.  Imperial Seal allows Intuitioning for Imp, Demonic and Vamp and in that matter you get Yawg.  Also Imperial Seal finds random hosers post board.  Imperial Seal for Planar Void versus Dredge or possibilty Sacred Ground versus Stax.
Regarding the Sacred Ground Play:
If you have 2 Duals/Fetches and a mox then you can lead with Mox, Underground Sea, Imp->Sacred Ground on turn 1.  Now your opponent may have Thorn/Resistor/Trinisphere or may have Strip/Waste but is fairly unlikely to be able to play both.  Thus if they Waste Underground you simply Fetch out Tundra and drop Sacred Ground while if they drop Resistor you will have 3 mana up to still cast Sacred Ground.  The same play applies for Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Enlightened Tutor.

I have had Imperial Seal countered before.  Basically with 3 Argivian Finds and Yawg, if it is the mid to late game and I have Key out and I cast Imperial Seal, then my opponent has a great fear that I will grab Vault and Argivian Find it back even if it is countered, thus they will counter the Imperial Seal.  This happened once to me.

-I saw no game vs. combo with 2 duress MD so now I am playing 4, maybe 3 is enough.

I have not had THAT much trouble against combo.  It is unfavorable but not overly so.  You still have a fast clock of your own and their draw 7s can really help you win.
I find that 3 Thoughtseize and 1 Tormod's Crypt is about what I want in the board, so if your meta is combo heavy and you are trying to adapt the deck to it then I would recommend something like that.

-Why echoing truth? Is there any non artifiact thread you are afraid of. I can only think of magus but he is not worth replacing hurkyl or rebuild with echoing truth, I think.

Most threats are artifacts, but there are plenty that are not.  If you know you are going to run up against a lot of Stax or if you expect there to be a lot of DSC vs DSC staredowns then swapping for Hurkyl's might make sense.  As this is not a storm deck it has less of desire to run Chain of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild than other storm decks.  Echoing Truth is better thanks to its flexibility.
A brief list of non artifact threats:
Oath of Druids
Creatures Oathed by Oath Druids (I would hate to lose to Blazing Archon despite having the Vault/Key combo out because I cannot attack)
Goblin Welder
Magus of the Moon
Gorilla Shaman
Aven Mindscensor (Sometimes you have Vamp/Mystical in hand when this guy is cast so you can tutor in response to find removal)
Animate Dead/Worldgorger Dragon
Choke
Empty the Warrens
Xantid Swarm (Because of these two I like Echoing Truth versus Combo)
Bridge from Below
Dark Confidant
Tarmogoyf
Moat

I will play the dec in a tournament tomorrow, keep you updated.

I look forward to hearing about it!

[heiner]

I will present you some thoughts, my current declist and a short tourney report.

First of all I started with a list without white. I am 100% convinced that this is the right choice. I NEVER regretted playing reconstruction instead of argivan find. The sorcery speed disadvantage is hardly relevant and greatly compensated for by being pitchable to force. The improved mana base also matters, the white sideboard can be compensated for. I know that you are in love with argivan find but I urge you to test the version without white.
 
After some more testing I came to the conlucsion that the dead cards in the dec have to be cut down. Maybe I am playing the dec more controllish than you are but there were a lot of games where I sat on dead recontructions and keys. My version is much more streamlined and a little more contollish.

I would really, really, really love to play 4x brainstorm and ponder is just the best option you have, so I think it is a must to play. Most important, it helps smoothing out too few/much mana.

What I like of the dec: Its an old shool control shell with a random very quick win option. If you run out of gas vs. combo you can still go all in and just try to win instead of stopping them. I actually win about 20% of the first games vs. Ichorid as you can try to mull into a hand with combo piece+tutor.

What I dislike: Control has suffered a LOT with the restriction of BS. It just does not run as smooth as before. I have a lot of problem against quick combo, and I think you need 4 FOW, 4 Duress and 4 ManaDrain for the mid game to compete. Stax is always as hard as it was, smokestack is a house again. 9 spheres bother as well. Still the matchup is much better then combo vs. stax.

BTW, I really like mana drain again as its one of the few cards besides FOW which is good/ok against ANY dec, in contra to duress, misd... Play 4 !

For the mana base I opted to go for the 13 land version with additional lands in the SB for the stax/fish matchup. Especially with 13 lands more basics are mandatory, I love them anyways and would not play with fewer then 3.

So here is my current list

Restricted:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Merchant Scroll

Engine:
4 Intuition
4 Thirst for Knowledge/Gush
2 Recontruction

Control:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Duress
1 Rebuild

Win:
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault

Mana:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy

I am stil not set for Gush vs. 4th Thirst and I will also test 4 AK instead. Meadbert was right on Imperial Seal, its a close call. I am really happy about the 3 Duress. For bounce I prefere Rebuild for its cycling ability. you just cannot afford to have dead cards imho.

The SB. 5 cards vs. Ichorid are enough as you have so many tutors. I knew I could handle the combo matchup with 2 more duress effects in the board but I needed a good plan vs. Stax and Fish. I opted for a transformational sideboard. Stax hates to see Oath and its also really good vs. fish.

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
4 Oath of Druids
2 Forbidden Orchard
1 Hellkite Overlord
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Short Tourney report:

1. Match Mono brown aggro Stax

I go first and have a great hand with 2 land, 2 mox and some control elements. I let a sphere resolve, but with 4 mana on the table I can play my game and quickly win.
Second game I sideboard the Oath in but he gets down a first turn trinisphere and quickly seals the game with Strip mine and Jugg+SoFI
Third game I go first and go land, mox, demonic. He plays a sphere and a Jugg first turn but I play Oaht and Time Walk and my dudes race his 2 Juggs.

2. Match Mono brown Stax

He goes nuts the first game and I have no chance.
Second game I side in the Oath plan and keep a hand of Island, Island, orchard, Oath, Mana Drain, Mana Drain. I drop Island go, he plays sphere, I draw imp seal and play it for black lotus as I am afraid of more spheres+land destruction. He plays another 2 spheres! I draw and tap 3 lands to play my Lotus. He powder kegs my lotus and plays sphere number 4 !! I actually topdec 2 lands and a mox, but he gets down Karn and quickly seals the deal the turn I can finally drop Oath.

3. Match random.dec
I win 2 easy games against some aggro dec.

4. Match Ichorid
I mull into a 4 cards hand with has land, crypt, time vault but fail to draw into key-tutor so I loose game one.
Second game I go first and keep a hand with Lotus, Mana Vault, Mox, Tinker, Time Vault
Third game he mulls to 4 which is good. I mull into Island, Needle, Yixlid Jailer, Tolarian, Mox, Mox which is great. He drops bazaar, activates, drops ancient grudge and plays chalice. Not a bad 4 card mulligan. I draw Thirst, play Island, needle and his chalice effectvely shuts down 4 mana of mine. He draws, and plays the land he needs for the grudge. I think without the chalice I could have gotten back into the game because of all my draw and he was slow, another land for the Jailer would have been ok as well.

5. Match Oaht
He goes first and we play the atrition game for a while with some intersting stacks and I win at some point. I cycled rebuild into drain once and drew draw and control spells and I think would not have won this game with echoing truth and a higher number of keys/reconstruction.
Second game I sideboard my 2 orchards in the hope he lays an early oaht, but I found out that he sided out 3 oaths to completely concentrate on the control matchup. He starts with ancestral, and I can come back and the game plays out like the first one, but he finally wins.
Third game I start with tinker, he forces, I force back, he forces again. We play draw go for a while but I draw only manas and a Time Vault which I play. I keep some mana in my hands to bluff but he seems to do a lot better and resolves draw spells over the turns. At one point he plays eot Vamp and lays a isochron scepter with ANcestral imprinted. He immediately draws 3 and I draw another land. In his next turn he draws another 3 and plays time Walk. He gets another turn and has like 10 cards in his hand. He plays another scepter with fire/ice and duresses me, I discard a mox. Thats where my bluff matters as he has only one mana left and cannot tap down my land with his scepter. He discards to 7 and says go. I rip Demonic tutor like a champ search for key, play the mox in my hand and win His only counter spells were 2 REBs and another Duress.

Altogether I am quite happy with the dec. The Ichorid game was bad luck and if stax draws the nuts you cannot do anything anyway. The last game was intense and soo much fun to play. Good ol control mirror is just about the best game of magic I think you can have.

Happy New Year!

[meadbert]

Good list!  Duress is good for sure and 13 lands with Ponder is fine.
Tought luck in the tournament.  That was a nutty hand that your Dredge opponent had with Chalice and Grudge!

[madlucas]

@heiner:
I really like your decklist on paper and I mean to test it.
Could you please tell me what's the 60th card?

[heiner]

1 Merchant Scroll

[Qube]

I'm glad to hear, you're also testing and playing with this dec. I had some time in the last few weeks but no time to write anything down about. I will soon show my latest changes and thoughts about the dec. I also tested without white, more on the controll way and slow down a bit, the transformal oath sideplan and made some interesting experiences.

Until then.

Wish all a very good new year 2009
-Qube

[rilegard]

Has anyone tested impulse?
My first thought was to replace Thirst for knowledge.
The pros:
+ allows to search deeper in your library
+ just 2 mana to cast it
The cons:
- draw only 1 card
- doesn't allow you to discard (darksteel collosus)
- affected by Chalice of the void @ 2

[meadbert]

That is an interesting idea and I have not tested it.

One problem is that Thirst, Intuition and Drain all compete to a degree because you can usually first play them on the same turn.  Impulse can be played a turn earlier than Thirst so it might work better, but discarding DSC is huge at times since basically Thirst's effect is better than Recall once DSC is in hand.

[Qube]

In my current list i play with 3-4 Impules and really likes it. because of the probs said before and in this deck you do not need a lot card advantage beacause you just need the combopieces and impules also good for find lands, counter or what you want.

I also tested with duress/misd for (and with) drains. But i need further tests.

Until then...

-Qube

[heiner]

Hi
I goldfished the dec with impulse and can say that I do not miss thirst. sometimes I would really like to intu for ak but impulse is good as it allows you to keep 1 land, 1 mox hands

[Guli]

The only card that this thread is suppose to promote as a difference in other builds is the white and blue regrowth. News flash, it is not new at all. All other cards are cards being used or were used in several decks over the years. I always believed Intuition was not fully given credit for its potential. The idea to combine it with vault/regrowth effects is solid but not really that innovating or interesting at all.

What is the purpose of this discussion? To find the the best way to abuse time vault combo? There are a lot of decks trying to do that out there and the title of this thread suggests that they are all welcome in here.

You can't just post a working combo and post a shell that works anyway on its own. It is the common drain control shell with some intuitions and regrowths. Where is the innovation? I have tested this list months ago. Sure it works but is it COMPLETE? If their is room for improvement and if there is need for changes to make it work better that you posted in the wrong section of the forum.

The way I see it, the vault combo is just another win condition. Gifts did a similar thing by getting a lethal pile and finish the game right there as well. Basicly the same is being done with more cards more search.

Is intuition becoming some kind of mix if merchant scroll and gifts? I think the title should be Intuition/Reconstruct: the new drain/combo/control. It is NOT about time vault. It is about the fuel.

[heiner]

What is the purpose of this discussion?

hmm whats the purpose of your reply? If you don't like the thread, don't read it. As long as it is of interest to people it is justified per se. The good thing with bulletin boards: As soon as the thread is not of interest anymore it will disappear into oblivion without bothering anybody.

You can't just post a working combo and post a shell that works anyway on its own. It is the common drain control shell with some intuitions and regrowths. Where is the innovation?

Yes we can!

You may not have noticed it as you seem to spend most of your time in the improvement forum but control decs have been sharing the same cards in their control shell since a while (Gifts, Gush, Slaver, Tezzeret, etc) yet play out totally differnt. Same with this dec.

Impulse vs. AK vs. Thirst already changes the dec so fundamentally that is justifies discussion.

BTT currently I am leaning towards Impulse.

[Guli]

The purpose of my reply is that you give me the purpose of this thread. My personal thoughts about the thread are irrelevant. And that I read or not read is also not in question, those are my own personal rights and can not be used as an argument to dismiss my questions.

I haven't been spending a lot of time in the improvement section of the forum, I don't see why this is relevant either. Again beside the point.

Impulse vs. AK vs. Thirst already changes the dec so fundamentally that is justifies discussion.

Then why is your title 'Time Vault Combo'? As far as I am concerned you can easily pack another win condition with the same shell.

You seem the lack the ability to grasp what my question is and instead you focus on irrelevant information about me, in short it is called out of context.


With the majority of the cards being THE SAME you will be casting the same spells most of your time. Running into an impulse instead of AK or TFK are all questions related to the engine of the deck and not the win condition. This discussion is not new either, since the restriction of important blue cards that served as engines for all control based blue decks people tried looking for ways to find other means of manipulating deck and draw.

So that is the purpose of this thread then? Do you realize the importance of a title? When I see time vault combo i expect to read something about the combo, some insights or whatever. I do not expect a discussion about the fuel or engine of blue based control/combo. When you write something you have to respect the readers that is a very important aspect of writing.

[wiley]

And that I read or not read is also not in question, those are my own personal rights and can not be used as an argument to dismiss my questions.

Actually, I do call this into question.  The opening paragraphs (right after the deck list) state what this thread is about.  It says that the deck is supposed to be a blue based combo deck focused on getting the time vault + voltaic key combo online as fast as possible.  It says that this is different from other decks using this combo as most of them (all?) are geared far more towards a control role and by cutting tazemebro from the list, along with other engine tweaks it is possible to make a faster deck.

As to whether or not an idea is new should not preclude it from being discussed.  World Gorger Dragon builds are old, should we never talk about them again?  How about TPS or Grim Long or Pitch Long or bringing back null rod in fish or using tangle wire in stax again or etc. etc.?  Saying that something has no value just because of its age is a flawed statement.

Perhaps you think that the ideas discussed in the thread have no value?  In which case the thread can be ignored by you and anyone else with a similar opinion however, it seems there are at least a few people who do find the discussion to have at least some merit otherwise this thread would have died.

I have tested this list months ago. Sure it works but is it COMPLETE? If their is room for improvement and if there is need for changes to make it work better that you posted in the wrong section of the forum.

It sounds as though you could add to the discussion with thoughts of your own on the questions you asked.  If you have experience with the list then why not share?  Where do you think the deck fails?  What is its best environment?  What changes could be made to fix perceived problems or why is the engine a lost cause?  Bert made it clear that he was open to these criticisms and openly invited them.

Since when is there a definite, perfect and polished list posted in any forum?  All the Ad Nauseam decks went through a huge amount of revisions (in multiple threads), same with tazemebro decks, long decks of every color, stax decks, the full gamut of fish decks (BUG fish is probably the only deck that I have seen posted in the open forum that wasn't pulled apart and completely recreated by every other poster in the thread) and any other 'new and/or innovative' deck.

Gifts decks of old are no longer legal, people are just trying to find the new best option.  There is no reason to attack them for doing it.

[Demonic Attorney]

Enough of the digressions and side arguments.  Take it to PM if you have more to say to each other.

[meadbert]

Derrik Wochinski
 Tezzeret
4 Force of Will
3 Negate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Misdirection
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystiical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Intuition
3 Reconstruction
2 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Echoing Truth
1 Yawgmoths Wil
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Swamp
3 Island
------
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Hurkyls Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Extirpate
3 Sower of Temptation
1 Spell Snare
1 Mind Twist
3 Duress

That list just got 4th.
Hopefully Derrik can comment on it.  Just looking at the list I think the main deck looks solid other than the swamp, while the board is lacking enough to fight Dredge.  Tez as a second win seems pretty good and Negate was a great idea.

[Malkizid]

That's right, I did pilot this deck to a 4th place finish.  And with all respects to Brian Fisher I think it should have been a Finals apperance.  I mulligained away any card advantage I might have had there.  The reason I think this is that, in my opinion, the Intuition/Reconstruction/Argavian Find version of Tez decks is the fastest.  There were at least 6 Time vault combo decks at this tournament.  Most of them focusing on Tezzeret.  All except mine were 3 or 4 colors. 

The reasons I think Intuition/Vault is better than other Tezzeret decks are...

#1 The manabase.  2 colors allows me to run 4 basics.  Meadbert I know you questioned the Swamp, but what should it have been?  The only spell in my deck that costs double blue is Tezzeret.  I could understand another Fetch, but I don't like to run more Fetches than lands to Fetch with them. 

#2  The endgame.  In Tezzeret based decks they are trying to win the turn after they play Tezzeret, a 5 cc spell.  In Intuition/Vault decks you are trying to win the turn after you play Intuition, a 3 cc spell.  Seems like a no brainer to me. 

Other Tez decks might like to play a better control game, but this is Time Vault Combo.  And that is what this deck does.  In round 5 of the swiss I was paired up against another Tez deck.  I won pretty easily both games, one of them casting 2 Ancestrals thanks to Misdirection.  My opponent (Ryan Meyrand) was interested in my build of the deck, and asked to play some more games just for fun.  Including the 2 games we played for the round, we played 7 games.  I won them all!!  I think only 1 game went longer than 4 turns before I was taking infinate turns.  After the 7th game I got up to report our results to see that there were still people playing the round.  Ridiculous!

Some observations on the list that I played...

Like some others who have posted in this forum, I too think this deck should be Blue/Black.  The only thing I miss white for is the sideboard.  I will get to the sideboard in a little bit.

Negate over Mana Drain.  In testing I very rarely cast Mana Drain.  It was getting pitched to Force more often than being cast.  So I decided to try Negate, since there are really no creatures that this deck is afraid of.  I loved Negate, the ability to have a first turn counterspell that you don't have to remove a blue card to cast, is very powerful.   

Thirst for Knowledge.  I think this is the right draw spell for sure.  At least 3 times I shuffled my DSC back off TFK.  When this happens it is like drawing 3 cards.  Thirst is the most synergestic draw spell with Reconstruction.  You almost never care about discarding a mox to it because the deck runs off 3 mana.  Accumulated Knowlege is too slow.  And Impulse is like casting Thirst and never finding an artifact to pitch to it.

Ponder.  Ponder is a good card and it worked but.  In the future I think I will try Sensei's Top in it's place.  There is staying power with Sensei's Top, and it can be pitched to Thirst.

Tezzeret the Seeker.  I was very happy with ONE and ONLY ONE Tez.  I added him because I felt I needed a second win condition.  Every time I randomly drew him I felt like I was cheating.  He has the ability to win you the game, can be pitched to Force, and is a win condition.

The sideboard.  I was very happy with my 3 Duress 1 Mind Twist package, to go along with my 2 maindeck Thoughtseize.  The card I am most afraid of seeing is possibly Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast.  These black cards clear the way nicely, so I don't walk into a Blast.  You might be saying Mind Twist? Really?  This deck has a lot of mana.  Mind Twist can take advantage of that nicely.  In game 2 of round 3 it was second turn and my opponent had Pithing Needle naming Vault and Etherium Sculpter in play.  I cast Hurkyl's Recall on him followed by Mind Twist for 6!!  That was game right there. 

I agree with Meadbert that I would have liked to have one more piece of Ichorid hate.  I had 1 Extirpate, 2 Jailers, 1 Tormod's (which I reconstructed one game vs. Ichorid), and my maindeck Echoing Truth. 

The Sowers I never used, and the Spell Snare was a late throw in.  I think the 2 Hurkyl's and 1 Rebuild were good. 


In conclusion, I loved this deck.  I will continue to play it.  Thank you to Meadbert for coming up with this deck idea.  I felt like I should win every game I played.  I hope this is helpful for anyone wishing to play this deck.  Any question, feel free to ask. 

Cheers, Derek.

[heiner]

Hi malkizid,

congrats for your performance. Some questions:
Did you never have the feeling that the recontructions, keys, tezzerets are dead cards that sit in your hands and cause you to loose games?

My experience is that although your dec is the control dec with the fastest kill it still cannot keep up with ADN and TPS. The only chance imho to win against these decs is to disrupt them in the early turns and then try to win. Thats why I chose to include Duress although Negate is defintely much better than drain vs. these decs.

The problem I see is that a single intuition is not sufficient to win from the spot as you need to have another recontruction or combo part in your hand. Having two recontructions means that the combo actually costs 6 mana which again means that you are likely to combo on turn 4. Turn four is crap! Combo has outraced you, Control has outcontrolled you while you are focusing on assembling your combo and stax will have 3 spheres in play.

I am currently testing a much more controllish version which plays AK and Impulse. The idea is to limit the dead cards to a single key/vault. You then combo by intuitioning for lotus/key/vault and play a tutor for Yawgwill. It can be still very quick if you have a intuition/mystical hand and due to the lotus can always combo the next turn after you play intuition.

My experience was that by diluting the dec with additional recontructions and combo elements you speed up the kill by a turn which is not enough vs. combo and stax but you will have lots of bad cards vs. control.

You mentioned that you won 7 games in a row vs. contol. Can you explain how these games played out? My experience within control matchups is that the dec with the better draw and disruption engine rather wins and not the one with the better kill option.

[heiner]

another note on colossus and thirst:

I know it feels GREAT to discard a colossus to thirst but if you look at it rationally it is not better than pitching any other artifact. As long as I dont want to tinker for Colossus ASAP, a colossus in your hand is not worse than a colossus in your library. Actually it is even better as you will not be able to draw into it again!

If I have a colossus in my hand I actually don't care. There is no need to shuffle it into the library asap. Just focus on assembling the combo and then you stilll have the possiblity to discard the collossus and tinker for it.

[swawagon]

Derek and I were working on the deck and it is strong!

It combos fast! Testing I had a turn one combo set up yesterday and many turn 3s.

4 Force, 3 Negate, and 2 Thoughtseize, plus Misdirection. This is quite a bit of control actually (plus 4 more Discard from the board), and how it can compete with TPS and Nauseum. Mana Drain was never being cast and with full Moxen, Sol Ring, M. Crypt, and M. Vault to help cast it, Negate really is the better choice over Drain.

And a lots of Thirst and Intuition is not a bad draw engine.

What seems to happen more often than not is having a Reconstruction in hand when you cast an Intuition.

Fishy -Null Rod- decks are probably one of the worst matchups.

[Purple Hat]

what about Transmute or Entomb since you're playing a bunch of reconstructions anyway?

[Malkizid]

@ Heiner.

Do I ever feel like Keys, Reconstructions, and Tez are dead cards?  Not at all.  Tez is a one of in the deck, and he can win you the game, so he is not dead.  Having a Key or Reconstruction in hand when I cast Intuition is the exact situation the deck is hoping for.  The problem is when you don't have any Reconstructs or combo pieces in hand.  In this situation you have to see what your hand looks like and Intuition from there.  If I have just disruption left in my hand I will Intuition for Reconstruct, Reconstruct, Time Vault.  If I have some Thirsts or Gifts in my hand I will Intuition out Reconstruct, Reconstruct, Key.  Having a Reconstruction or combo peice in hand when I Intuition you just grab Reconstruct, Reconstruct, and the other combo piece.  Or Both combo pieces and reconstruct.  This is why 3 Reconstruction is the right number.

The matchup vs. combo.  You say I cannot keep up with combo.  In round 1 of the top 8 I played against U/R/B Grim Long.  I beat him in 2 Games.  Game 1 I probably got lucky.  But post board I have a very good matchup vs. combo.  My deck will contain something like 3 Duress, 1 Thoughtseze, 1 Mind Twist, 4 Force of Will, 3 Negate, 1 Misdirection.  Assuming I get a turn I will probably have some disruption for them.  If I don't get a turn, then I have 4 Force of Will and that is about all any deck can do without getting a turn.  

In the match I won 7 games in a row.  The games went early Intuition leads to the win.  I think once I had first turn Tinker DSC.  Control really can't out-control you when they are using the same draw spells you are.  Plus extra Duress effects can really swing things in your favor.

You say DSC in not better to pitch to Thirst than any other artifact.  Pitching a DSC to Thirst feels Great because it is Great.  Last time I checked that bad boy costs ELEVEN to cast.  The place for this guy is in my library so I can Tinker him out, not in my hand.  When he is in my hand Thirst for knowlege reads 2U Instant Draw 3 cards.  I don't understand why you would rather hold onto it, and pitch another card, rather than shuffle it back in fear of drawing it again.

[Malkizid]

I would not play entomb.  I would rather Intuition and get the cards in my grave.  Intuition gives you a card you want, plus puts cards you want into the grave.  It seems better than entomb.  Transmute is something I have considered.  But I have not tested it enough to have an opinion on it yet. 

[chief]

I would say that derek's board holds pretty much the most you would want to devote to anti-dredge spots...2 jailer, 1 crypt, 1 extirpate? Seems fine.  Maybe flop out one jailer for one needle or relic, but in a deck able to abuse draws and tutors it isn't too necessary to board more heavily than that against dredge.

[meadbert]

4 Force of Will
3 Negate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Misdirection

That is 10 cards that are pretty bad against Dredge with only 5 anti dredge cards to bring in.  This leaves five of the above cards left in against Dredge.  Presumably you keep the Forces and Misdirection which are not terrible against Dredge, but they are also not good.

Combine that with the fact that Thirst and Reconstruction play well with Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle and you have a strong argument for running more of those cards.
I used to like to run Tormod's Crypt as a card that doubles as Dredge and Long hate, but TPS is really not that graveyard reliant at all.  I now have mixed feelings regarding Tormod's Crypt versus Long.  Crypt definitely does not stop TPS at all since there is only 1 card in the deck that uses the yard.  What Crypt does do is slow down TPS since Yawg is used for many of the turn 2 wins.  Without the graveyard, draw 7ing into Tendrils or Tinker->DSC generally takes till turn 3 or later so Tormod's Crypt buys a little bit of time for free, but is not that good against Long.  Duress and Thoughtseize are just better.

It sounds like Sower of Temptation and Spell Snare were never used so perhaps those could be swapped out for more Tormod's Crypts and Pithing Needles.

[M.Solymossy]

  I felt like I should win every game I played. 

Derek, I have to disagree with this statement.  At no point where you in either of our games.  Granted, Game 1 I just tinkered with Reb backup, but Game 2 I cast Ancestral AND Thirst for Knowledge, just to see if you had action so I could win.

[Malkizid]

What I meant to say is, I felt like I should win every match I played.  I didn't feel like I got any bad matchups. 

[M.Solymossy]

What I meant to say is, I felt like I should win every match I played.  I didn't feel like I got any bad matchups. 

I also disagree with that statement.  Mana Drain fuels things like Intuition, Tezzeret, Will, and Thirst For Knowledge.   Without them, you're in a worse spot against every deck in the field, other than TPS.  You can Negate Null Rod, but you can't negate their tarmogoyfs, or Dark Confidants.  You can negate my threats, but I can drain yours, making mine easier to cast.  Quite honestly, you beat Ryan Mayrand 7 times, but I know that those results are quite skewed by the fact he has only played magic once since vintage worlds.  While you draw cards like reconstruct, I draw cards like Regrowth, or Ancient Grudge.  I think if we had played, the results would have been much more in 5-color Tez' favor.

[meadbert]

What I meant to say is, I felt like I should win every match I played.  I didn't feel like I got any bad matchups. 

You can Negate Null Rod, but you can't negate their tarmogoyfs, or Dark Confidants. 

Goyf and Bob are much less threatening to a deck that is less reliant on Tezzeret.