Elves! Top Eight at Myriad

[The Atog Lord]

Elves!

Myriad Games
December 6, 2008
18 Players
Top Eight

Had events not conspired quite as they did, it is quite unlike that I'd have sleeved up Fyndhorn Elves for today's tounament. Control Slaver, though and excellent deck, had failed to take me to top eight on either day of TravisCon. My concerns with my current build of Control Slaver being a topic for another discussion, I'll say nothing beyond that I had no desire to write "Mana Drain" on a decklist for this tournament. So, wishing to play something as different as possible from my usual faire, I took note of LSV's recent Pro Tour Victory and decided to turn green creatures sideways.

Before further proceeding, then, let me take a moment to give props both to LSV and to Owen. Owen was very helpful in discussing deck ideas, and provided some key insights about the deck. He had taken a prior version of Elves to a top eight finish at another tournament, and had some key insights about where to take the deck.

Now, let's get to the build itself.

    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Forest
    4 Windswept Heath
    1 Bayou
    4 Birchlore Rangers
    4 Fyndhorn Elves
    4 Heritage Druid
    4 Llanowar Elves
    4 Nettle Sentinel
    4 Wirewood Symbiote
    1 Regal Force
    2 Elvish Visionary
    4 Quirion Ranger
    1 Viridian Shaman
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Skullclamp
    4 Glimpse of Nature
    1 Grapeshot
    4 Summoner's Pact

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 3 Gleeful Sabotage
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm

I'm not going to explain how the engine itself works, since that is already set forth in detail on Wizard's own website. It is worth noting that Gaea's Cradle was cut because it greatly increases the number of hands which you mulligan; you can't keep a hand with Cradle as its sole mana source. The fetchlands were there simply to thin out the deck; if your metagame includes copious quantities of Stifles, then having a slew of Basic Forests is better. The final note on the manabase is that Elvish Spirit Guide was not worthwhile in testing.

As for the sideboard, it is designed for a New England metagame. Your mileage may vary. Leyline is the best option I could think of against Ichorid. Anything else can be hit by Unmask, and anything costing mana can slow you down. Thus the Leylines. Gleeful Sabotage was the best answer I could think up for removing annoying things like Chalice, but I will need to try some more options.

Now, onto the matchups.

Round One: Craig Dupre
Craig has cut his usual maindeck Fire/Ices and Brassman Guildmages, a decision that did not serve him well in this mtach. He stops both Nettle and Clamp in the first game, Mana Drains an Insect, and Slaves me. He can't do much harm but does bounce my board using my own cards. I can't rebuild before he has several Slave turns lined up in a row and I concede. I win the second game very quickly after a first turn Xantid Swarm. The third game is very intense. The long and short of it is that Craig leads with a first turn Master of Etherium. He knocks me low on life, and gets out a Welder and a Triskelavus. Trisk kills two Swarms and attacks, knocking me to two life. Craig removes a token from the Trisk. If Master E weren't in play, he could have shot his own Trisk, Welded it back in, removed two tokens and won. However, Master E looks out for his buddy Trisk and prevents him from being shot by a lowly token. Instead, Craig must pass the turn and does not get another. Craig was an Atog away from victory.

Round Two: Jeremiah
I have a first turn Lllanowar. Jer Mysticals for Tinker on his first turn and then Mana Drains my Sentinel. Jer uses the Drain mana to cast the Tinker and gets a Colossus. I untap, Glimpse, and win. In the escond game, Jer opens with Lotus, Island, Bitterblossom, Timewalk. He Extirpates my Symbiote who died to Skullclamp, but that's not enought to stop my going off.

Round Three: Josh with Fish
I haev a first turn Llanowar Elf. He casts Ancestral, a slightly stronger card from the same set. He then Wastes my Bayou, which I had the misfortunate of having as my single land in that hand. I, however, play two more mana producing Elves. Josh starts to play some Fish creatures, and I go off. He Stifles my Grapeshot, but dies the next turn to a horde of green gentlemen. In the second game, I mulligan. Josh opens with Wasteland and Lotus. I play a Fyndhorn Elf, which Josh steals with Sower. He then Strips my Forest, but not until I've played another Fyndhorn. Josh Forces my Llanowar Elf off the Fyndhorn and Stifles my fetchland. However, Fyndhorn eventually produces enough elves to beat Josh to death in Onslaught Block Limited fashion.

Round Four: Eastman
I get paired down and Eastman needs to play. I open the first game with a turn one mana elf. Eastman has Land and Black Lotus. I play another Elf and a Clamp and pass. Eastman tutors up an Ancient Grudge and destroys my Clamp. This reduces me to attacking, and Eastman is able to assemble Time Vault and Key before my six points a turn gets there. In the second game, Eastman opens with a land, three Moxes, and a Chalice at one, of which he had a single copy. He counters both of the Shamans I play and that's it.

Round Five: ID

Top Eight: Bill Copes with Stax
I open with a Forst, Lotus, and four elves. Bill drops a Chalice on One. On his next turn, Karn comes to play with my elves. I soon become unable to attack through Karn's army of lock pieces, the very same cards which are precluding my advancing my board. I'm one mana away from being able to get Shaman recurring with the Insect, but sad to say my board dies to Smokestack and Karn does his thing. The second game goes better for me, and I manage to keep enough Elves on the table to beat Bill to death. In the third game, Bill opens with Trinisphere. No problem, I think, as I have three lands in hand. His second turn Sphere didn't hurt, but his third turn Tanglewire sure did. The subsequent Karn and second Tangle wire on the following two turns preventing me from being able to cast a single spell in the game.

So, that's it. Elves was a blast to play; it has many lines of play at a given time and is a very decision-intensive deck. Is it optimized? No -- I keep having the feeling that, given the breadth of the Vintage card pool, I must be missing something. But it performed very well, and while the Stax matchup needs a bit of work, I'm sure that future versions of this deck could be made stronger against it. I was very confident against the other six decks I could have faced in the top eight.

Thanks for reading.

Oh, and Chris, Happy birthday!

[T00L]

Elves huh? Well at least type 2 is fun right now.

[Shock Wave]

There is a gentleman in our metagame who has been playing an almost identical build for several months, and has consistently made top 8 over a long stretch of events.

[Juggernaut GO]

You know type 1 is fucked when the premier vintage player starts playing elves...

[Sporkcore]

Next thing you know, everyone's playing Elves! at the next big event and it's going to be a deck to beat. Better start finding those Engineered Plagues.

[T00L]

Next thing you know, everyone's playing Elves! at the next big event and it's going to be a deck to beat. Better start finding those Engineered Plagues.

I still have my playset of simp chinese ones

[ill_Dawg]

Nice to see green men turning sideways ftw, that brings me back.

Just one thing, though. have you thought about tossing in 1x mirror entity? it lets you bounce symbiotes to themselves for infi-glimpse and tons of mana, then pumps your dudes.

just a thought.

-=ADAM=-

[Wobbles]

Gaea's Herald is a pretty good answer to Chalice for 1, although it's worse than in extended or legacy where you are running weird harvest over clamp.

Speaking of, Harvest is such a beating, are you sure you couldn't find room for it somewhere?

No mycoloth or jitte? Those still seems great when you are going on a beat down plan.

[TopSecret]

Congratulations on the finish, and thanks for the report!


Elves, Glimpse of Nature, and Skullclamp
are all competitive in Vintage.

My life has been fulfilled.


If you're looking for something better than Gleeful Sabotage,
you could sideboard a Taiga, and then play Ingot Chewers.
Although, this would make you more susceptible to Wasteland without Quirion Ranger on the board.
Perhaps Ancient Grudge could be good, since it can handle a second Chalice if it shows up later?

If Chalice becomes a chronic problem, perhaps Leyline of Lifeforce could be used,
since you'd need to mulligan to Chalice-hate anyway?

[quentin]

I've been testing a KoboldsClamp list for like ages, and I've found it to have too many resilience problems to be competitive. My list (for reference) also runs 4 clamps and 4 glimpses as its main engines.
Apart from the problem already mentionned here of chalice, I've found that the deck has a lot of problems getting back from 1/2 disruptions spells as simple as duress/fow. So of course, if the opponent has neither of these spells, you can goldfish him turn 2 (my kobolds list actually has a decent turn 1 goldfish rate).
But what if you get your clamp duressed away, or fowed ? The same applies to glimpse, which even when it resolves does not have a success rate for comboing out as good as clamp's. Often you'll have to mull into a 6 cards hand to have either drawers in your first hand, and it'll be rare that you have 2 of them in your 7. Even when that happens, it's still possible your opponent has 2 disruptions too, and once your 2 good spells are done for, you're left in topdeck mode with a bunch of 1/1s.
Kobolds can at least afford maindeck xantids, while this list runs a grand total of 0 disruption maindeck.

Anyway, I have trouble seeing what this list has over a "traditional" kobolds-clamp such as the one listed above. It goldfishes faster, has more disruption, access to actually good spells like recall and tutors. Maybe Rich can you enlighten me ?
The only things kobolds seem to lack compared to this elves list is the beatdown mode, but I have trouble figuring what modern vintage deck can't outrace elvesbeatdown.deck, especially when it doesn't run wastes. Would you care telling, during your tests or with your experience of the deck, how often you win through actual 1/1 beatdown ?

So I know this top8'ed twice in a couple of weeks and kobolds have been nowhere to be seen for ages, but no one plays kobolds, and without any disrespect for other players in their meta, I have the feeling that a Turtenwald or a Shay could take any day an half-good legacy deck and top8 in an 18-players field vintage tournament.

[Vegeta2711]

It goldfishes faster, has more disruption, access to actually good spells like recall and tutors.

hahahhahahaha, yeah ok man. Sure it does.

Nice job Rich. And Brassy said nobody would actually play Elves. Good times.

[BigBarn]

The only things kobolds seem to lack compared to this elves list is the beatdown mode, but I have trouble figuring what modern vintage deck can't outrace elvesbeatdown.deck

You only beatdown when they stop your combo.  It's not like you have a hand with Glimpse and say "F it, I'll just attack."  Whatever your best option is, you go with it.  The simple fact is that decks that have answers to your stuff often take time to refuel.  If they don't have Force when you go off, obviously you win.  If they do have Force/Removal/etc, then you still give them a very small window before your attack phases kill them.  You're not completely spent because they kiled your Skullclamp or countered your Glimpse.

I think you want your answers to chalice to be creatures (since you can pact for them) - g. herald/viridian zealot and viridian shaman are probably enough.

[zeus-online]

Hmmm elves? In vintage?
Pretty weird, but i guess you caught alot of people off-guard

If this trend picks up two things will happen:
1) I'll have to add this to my gauntlet....WTF?
2) I'll start playing combo or pack pyroclasm's, powder keg's, engineered explosives etc. in my sideboard.

Very weird, pretty new, although it's clearly an extended port (not that this matters).

I have a weird feeling that this is exactly what vintage needs: New decks which are quite unlike anything vintage has seen in ages.

/Zeus

[Shojeel]

Rich was one of my losses for the day. Game one he smoked me with the combo generating 16 elves in a turn i think. He grapeshot me which was stifled then beat my face in next turn. Game two I was not quite sure what to do so I went the mana denial route since that is what seemed to be the only way I could slow him down. That still did not work as he was able to get enough elves over time to over run me again.

Good job Rich!

[JimmyP]

Seeds of Innocence seems like a beating against Stax.  Though Seeds can't kill E.Plaque or any other enchantments...

[Evergreen]

So just to clarify, would you actually consider playing ELVES! in a larger tournament, say worlds or an scg p9?  While I must admit I have not tested this, so perhaps I am underestimating some aspect of the deck, it seems like there is really just no reason to play ELVES! beyond trying something different or having some fun.  This seems much weaker than virtually every other viable deck in vintage at the moment, yet somehow has two top 8's.  I am attributing most if not all of the decks success to player skill and opponent's who are unfamiliar with the deck, however if you feel there is a legitimate competitive reason to play this I would be interested in hearing it.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Having played the deck ill just say, play with or against it and youll see its pretty broken.

[Vegeta2711]

So just to clarify, would you actually consider playing ELVES! in a larger tournament, say worlds or an scg p9?  While I must admit I have not tested this, so perhaps I am underestimating some aspect of the deck, it seems like there is really just no reason to play ELVES! beyond trying something different or having some fun.  This seems much weaker than virtually every other viable deck in vintage at the moment, yet somehow has two top 8's.  I am attributing most if not all of the decks success to player skill and opponent's who are unfamiliar with the deck, however if you feel there is a legitimate competitive reason to play this I would be interested in hearing it.

Yeah, winning on turn 2 about even with or possibly more often than Ad Nauseam combo while being less vulnerable to certain kinds of hate is clearly terrible.

Almost all the natural predators of this sort of combo deck (creature removal, mass discard like Persecute, Counterbalance - Top) don't exist in Vintage. Combine the unnatural speed of the deck with it having better beatdown options than most Fish decks and you can figure out why the deck is pretty good. This is actually -the- Budget deck to play, not Sui Black or w/e, because it's actually a good deck period. If it won anymore consistently on turn 2 I'd say you would have 0 good reason to play other combo until the metagame adapted.

[LordHomerCat]

I guess the worst thing is that you can rarely beat other combo decks Game 1.  Otherwise, the deck can kill Drains big time and can beat fish every time unless they get something ridiculous like active Jitte or early Canonist.  I'm with Josh; I've seen the deck in action (in the hands of a pilot who knows what he's doing) and I've tested against it and it's really powerful against things that can't win first.

As a budget deck, this thing makes Kobold Clamp look like an even bigger joke than it already is.  It's insane.

[Evergreen]

I may have been a little harsh in my initial analysis of this deck, as players with more experience with it than I have been quick to point out.  However, I find it hard to believe that this deck is as quick or quicker that ad nauseam.  Just looking at the two decks side by side, the power level of the cards in ad nauseam is so much higher than those in the elf deck.  That is not to say it is not more resilient to commonly played hate, but faster?  Chalice seems like an annoyance for this deck, not an auto-win, but a definite speed bump, as does engineered explosives, two cards that are commonly played in main decks.  I will make no argument as to the the viability of ELVES! as a budget deck, I would not be surprised if this was better than goblins and suicide black or whatever other fringe deck people are trying to run.  I could even make the concession that in narrower metagames infested with fish or drains this could be a decent if not optimal choice.  What I am talking about is in a larger tournament, with a relatively unknown meta, would you really play this over the other more powerful options available to you, assuming your only goal is to win.  A complete concession to rituals alone seems like a good enough reason not to play this.  Again I could be way off base, after all R/G beats has won major tournaments in recent memory, but I see this more as a flash in the pan, akin to something like worse that gro from a few years back, the izzet guildmage deck, or doomsday (probably better than those but you get my point) a fringe deck with a few strong results, but doomed to the outer edge of competitiveness.  I guess I'll have to actually set aside some time to test this.

[pierce]

it seems one of the strengths of the deck is people having so few SB cards vs it--or at least, at this current moment. However, some splash hate does exist. Pithing needles meant for Bazaar work well vs skullclamp. i'd immagine that shortly the massacres in TPS's and ad nas sb's become infests, so that they can be cast more easily vs this deck as well. plus, any decent fish player already plays his g2 &3 med mages on massacre. who would name infest? 

that said, if rich shay didn't make t8 at an 18 player tournament with any deck, regardless of tier level, I'd be more shocked than I am by this. Especially in such a drain infested meta. I couldnt see this deck doing well were I play, do to half the decks being combo--either TPS, ad nas, or ichorid.

this'll shake things up a tad, and I'm all for forests seeing play in vintage.
had rich won, things would be different.

[The Atog Lord]

However, I find it hard to believe that this deck is as quick or quicker that ad nauseam.

This isn't. It is, however, more consistent. It is also more resilient to control elements. It fails more gracefully in that when its combo is stunted it has a perfectly viable alternate route to victory. Someone may play this over Ad Nauseam for similar reasons that one may opt to play TPS over Meandeck Tendrils.

[Vegeta2711]

I may have been a little harsh in my initial analysis of this deck, as players with more experience with it than I have been quick to point out.  However, I find it hard to believe that this deck is as quick or quicker that ad nauseam.  Just looking at the two decks side by side, the power level of the cards in ad nauseam is so much higher than those in the elf deck.  That is not to say it is not more resilient to commonly played hate, but faster?  Chalice seems like an annoyance for this deck, not an auto-win, but a definite speed bump, as does engineered explosives, two cards that are commonly played in main decks.  I will make no argument as to the the viability of ELVES! as a budget deck, I would not be surprised if this was better than goblins and suicide black or whatever other fringe deck people are trying to run.  I could even make the concession that in narrower metagames infested with fish or drains this could be a decent if not optimal choice.  What I am talking about is in a larger tournament, with a relatively unknown meta, would you really play this over the other more powerful options available to you, assuming your only goal is to win.  A complete concession to rituals alone seems like a good enough reason not to play this.  Again I could be way off base, after all R/G beats has won major tournaments in recent memory, but I see this more as a flash in the pan, akin to something like worse that gro from a few years back, the izzet guildmage deck, or doomsday (probably better than those but you get my point) a fringe deck with a few strong results, but doomed to the outer edge of competitiveness.  I guess I'll have to actually set aside some time to test this.

Chalice is more common in maindecks / boards in Extended than it is in Vintage and the same with Engineered Explosives. Deck does fine there too.

As for the bolded - You should, because your entire post would be answered if you actually played the deck or saw the deck being played versus all this theory-craft on your end and people who have actually tested telling you that your wrong.

[Nehptis]

Round Three: Josh with Fish
I haev a first turn Llanowar Elf. He casts Ancestral, a slightly stronger card from the same set.

^ Hilarious!  Nice work on continuing to optimize this build. A few questions/comments:

1) Root Maze in the SB to slow down other combo decks?
2) Is Priest of Titania not included because it takes an extra turn to be active?
3) Deglamer, Seal of Prim, or Naturalize to deal with COTV and other artifacts / Oath?
4) Deconstruct to deal with an Artifact + accelerate you into your combo?
5) Sundering Vitae for artifacts?
6) When did you need to bring in Thoughtseize?
7) Can Seedtime finally find a place in Vintage (SB)?

[The Atog Lord]

Sorry, Nehptis; I clicked Edit instead of Reply there at first.

Some solid ideas. In the right metagame, Root Maze could be quite strong; though, I'm not sure that it has a place in New England at the moment. Priest is out because of the fact that she takes a turn to work, yes. I believe that the Conspire ability on Sabotage makes it better than the other three similar cards that you mention in point #3. Deconstruct is a fine card, but is it better than Grip, which is uncounterable and able to handle Engineered Plague? Sundering Vitae could be quite good. Thoughtseize was against combo, but I never saw any of it. And Seedtime is probably too mana intensive when compared wtih Xantid Swarm.

[Nehptis]

All that makes perfect sense.  I do like Conspire and Convoke cards in the SB to deal with arts/enchs.  So, maybe some testing with both and some Root Mazes is a good start.

I like the deck being Mono G (except for Grapeshot).  So, I'll probably stay away from Thoughtseizes.

BTW, do I have 1 of the engines right?

If you are playing off a Glimpse with 2 Sentinels in play + a Birchlore then it's much:

Tap 2 x Sentinels for G.
Play an Elf.
Untap both Sentinels
Draw a card for Glimpse.
Rinse and Repeat

Also, do you have a link to the article on the WOTC site that explains the deck (T2 or Ext version)?

[Norm4eva]

Pardon my ignorance, I've not tested the deck - is Wirewood Herald just a worse Summoner's Pact, because it seems like it turns Skullclamp into a really good Ancestral and might even help you deal with something dumb like Engineered Plague.

[Nefarias]

Also, do you have a link to the article on the WOTC site that explains the deck (T2 or Ext version)?

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptber08/welcome

Here's the link to the PT Berlin event coverage. Pretty much read any match report from the Top 8.

[LordHomerCat]

Pardon my ignorance, I've not tested the deck - is Wirewood Herald just a worse Summoner's Pact, because it seems like it turns Skullclamp into a really good Ancestral and might even help you deal with something dumb like Engineered Plague.

Herald costs 2, which is really expensive.  Pact is free.  If you are clamping, you are probably winning, so getting to fetch an elf at that point (for 3 mana, which is way more than any elf in the deck is worth) is not really necessary.

[forests failed you]

Shocking a Storm deck is good in Vintage...

Nice finish Rich, and nice report as well.