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Author Topic: Elves! (referring to Rich Shay's tournament report)  (Read 14800 times)
Shimster
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« on: December 17, 2008, 09:06:11 am »

After reading Rich's hilarious report, I played around with some cards, cutting black entirely (4 T Seize aren't that game breaking) and added Eternal Witness. It's one of the most broken creature decks I've laid my hands on (and I played a lot of Affinity back when it was good), yet it's perfectly playable without any p9.

// Lands
    14  Forest

// Creatures
    1  Regal Force
    1  Viridian Shaman
    4  Elvish Visionary
    4  Nettle Sentinel
    4  Heritage Druid
    4  Llanowar Elves
    4  Wirewood Symbiote
    4  Wirewood Hivemaster
    4  Birchlore Rangers
    1  Eternal Witness
    1  Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
    4  Glimpse of Nature
    4  Summoner's Pact
    3  Skullclamp
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Grapeshot

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Xantid Swarm
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 3  Gleeful Sabotage
SB: 4 Pithing Needle

If you didn't figure out yet, how to assemble the combo, read through the PT Berlin coverage. 2/3 of the field was Elves!

My changes:

1. Cutting a Forest in favour of a single Elvish Spirit Guide: ESG is an Elve now and it's really good with Summoner's Pact (turning it into an unrestricted Lotus Petal). You can easily cut the both pieces of power in favour of another ESG and a 15th Forest, in order to make the deck dirt cheap. Smile

2. Cutting a Clamp in favour of Eternal Witness (aka Ms. Regrowth): Clamp is more like Glimpse 5 - 7, so you don't need the full playset. Witness on the other hand is really broken: I wouldn't play the deck without her ever again because she's so good against control.

3. Dropping black: I cut black after I noticed how bad Yawgmoth's Will is in this deck. I tested it in the Witness' slot for about 50 games and it was win more most of the time. Without fetchlands, you are immune against Stifle effects.

Has anyone of you have some experience with the deck? What do you think of my changes?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 09:58:41 am by Shimster » Logged
overseer1234
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2008, 09:34:45 am »

You could try and play gaea's cradle + crop rotation, that doesn't sound to bad.

But then again, what to cut...
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2008, 09:44:13 am »

I tested Gaea's Cradle because Rich said it isn't worth it. With 15 permanent mana sources, you often have got only one in your opening hand. You really don't want it to be a nonbasic that does nothing without a creature on the table.

This version of Elves! does not generate mana via lands. On turn 2, Gaea's Cradle often generates two mana. In my opinion, it's not worth it.
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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2008, 09:54:06 am »

What possible reason could you have for only playing 3 Skullclamp?

I see that you have a fun nickname for Eternal Witness but can you elaborate on why you think its good outside 'its Mrs. Regrowth and that card is broken'. The only reason I would want to play Eternal Witness is against control, for returning Duressed/Forced Clamps/Glimpes and cutting a Clamp defeats the purpose. On top of that I feel that drain decks are one of the best matchups for this deck and Witness though fine against control is weak to unplayable vs most of the other decks, at least the ones I was losing to.
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2008, 01:09:24 pm »

I think you can cut up to 4 forests + fill 3 - 4 slots with fetchlands. You don't need that much mana imho.
Also, I think that this list only has it's comboplan, once you can't go off you can't switch to a more aggroish version.
Adding 1 Imperious Perfect wouldn't be too bad in my opinion.
Also, if you're playing skullclamp, why not play Wirewood Herald's instead of Pact's? It's a token with hivemaster, two cards with skullclamp and one card with glimpse.
Also, what's pretty neat with skullclamp is Prowess of the fair and Caller of the Claw.

This would imho be a stronger plan B if your combo fails / gets countered.

If you're interested, that's what I'm testing atm:

// Lands
    1  Pendelhaven
    1  Taiga
    1  Bayou
    4  Forest
    1  Windswept Heath
    2  Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
    3  Wirewood Symbiote
    2  Quirion Ranger
    4  Nettle Sentinel
    4  Llanowar Elves
    3  Fyndhorn Elves
    4  Heritage Druid
    4  Birchlore Rangers
    4  Wirewood Herald
    2  Quirion Sentinel
    1  Viridian Zealot
    1  Caller of the Claw
    1  Imperious Perfect
    4  Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
    4  Skullclamp
    3  Glimpse of Nature
    3  Prowess of the Fair
    3  Goblin Bombardment
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2008, 02:47:19 pm »

I have to throw in my .02 because I've loved turning green things sideways since I can remember.

     Backstory: I haven't played a game in years, but I still try to keep up with things from time to time and do a bunch of goldfishing when I get bored. This could be cool or it could be completely irrelevant. Genius? Retarded? Or just sort of meh?  You decide.

// Lands
    4  Forest
    3  Windswept Heath
    3  Wooded Foothills
    1 Savannah
    1  Gaea's Cradle
    1 Tropical Island

// Creatures
    4 Llanowar Elves
    2  Quirion Ranger
    4  Wirewood Symbiote
    4  Priest of Titania
    2  Elvish Harbinger
    1  Mirror Entity
    3  Birchlore Rangers
    3  Heritage Druid
    3  Elvish Visionary
    4  Nettle Sentinel
    1  Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
    1  Regal Force
    1  Sylvan Messenger

// Spells
    2  Concordant Crossroads
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    4  Glimpse of Nature
    4  Summoner's Pact
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1  Grapeshot

Same same. . . but different?
   First off, I loves me some Priests of titiana. I rock them in anything with elves. Yes, they take an extra turn to come online; but when they do come online, good things happen. They make the symbiotes rock even more than they would otherwise.
   
   Speaking of the symbiotes, mirror entity lets them bounce themselves. So, if you can produce 3 mana on a bounce, you can go infinite right there. For example, 1 priest, 1 symbiote, 1 mirror entity, 1 mana to start = infinite. Thatís when huge dudes turn sideways. You can do the same thing with 1 nettle sentinel , 1 heritage druid, 1 symbiote and 1 entity (make them all elves, tap symbiote, sentinel, druid for GGG. Bounce symbiote to untap druid. Replay for G, untap sentinel. Make elves for G, floating G. Rinse, repeat.).  Add a glimpse, and you can draw your whole deck. Hilarity ensues.

WTF is Momir Vig, Simic Visionary?
   Good question. I had him in the list before I added pacts as a way to tutor for symbiotes that was an elf. Back then, the list revolved more around Sylvan mess and Elvish harbingers to tutor and draw the cards it needed. Sylvan mess is still great to bounce and replay with a Symbiote, but adding pacts and stuff lowered the elf density to the point where heís not really as cool as he could be. I kept the awkward legend in there because he wins you the game off one glimpse.
1.) Stack the effects
2.) Choose what you draw
3.)??????
4.)gg
Thereís that, and he sorta justifies the blue splash for Ancestral. And he would pitch to force if I ran it. Thatís still a valid argument, right?

No clamps? Youíre doing it wrong!
   Not a big fan. I like turning dudes sideways, not killing them off. You canít always wait the extra turn, and you canít always dig deep enough to find crossroads or play enough dudes to make grapeshot count. I pirated the shot tech as an out against some permanent that keeps elves from winning the game by turning sideways during the attack phase. It is a viable path to victory, but this deck can win with just 3 dudes on the table. That means you might have just 1 dude thatís unsick enough to swing for 20+. Canít be clamping him. If thatís not enough, then itís because of null rod. Or because they donít pitch to force or something. Or maybe I just donít like them. That could be it.

   As for the results? Well, there are none. Iíve goldfished this pile enough times to have green hair on my palms, but never played a game with it irl. It goes off turn 2-3 most of the time, and has some stoopid ridiculous interactions. It might be worth a shot, or it might not. You might be able to take some ideas from it, or they might all be bad ideas. I just wanted to throw it there for you to decide.

Tl;dr -> OMG the elves WTF??!11!one!

-=ADAM=-
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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2008, 02:53:17 am »

Elvish Harbinger is the most crappy card I could think of. Well, next to Momir Vig. If you are already splashing blue for Anc, I would play Walk as well. In conjunction with a lot of creatures, it should be a decent secondary wincondition.

Concordant Crossroads I dead on its own, the reason I don't play Food Chain in FCG anymore. Or FCG at all. Very Happy

Mirror Entity + Wirewood Symbiote is win more, so no no.

Current list:

// Mana
14 Forest
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald

// Elves
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Hivemaster
2 Viridian Shaman

// Insects
4 Wirewood Symbiote

// Spells
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
1 Grapeshot

You could easily play some fetchlands + a single Tropical Island, in order to play Anc and Walk instead of Elvish Visionary. I just don't want to open a deck to Stifle, which doesn't have to suffer from it.
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2008, 06:53:40 pm »

I build Rich's list with extra land for the Lotus & Mox, since if this deck gets played it will be run unpowered by a friend.

We tested it against Manaless Ichord, Etherium Slaver, & Oath (Akroma/Hellkite).
We must be 'doing it wrong', but it was getting trashed in most games.

Vs Manaless Ichorid could block easily, and Clamp isn't instant for removing bridges. Seems like your forced to Grapeshot, but I could never generate enough storm, often fizzling because Chalice for Zero was stopping Pact.

Vs Slaver it did pretty well without sideboards 50/50 (All the Card drawing would be countered). With sideboard Engineered Plague or Pyroclasm I think the Elves! would struggle since Slaver had many chances in the games it lost to tutor for one, or with enough brought in, would have dug through enough cards that the likelyhood of drawing one was high.

Vs Oath it won only 1 game, where Akroma was Oathed up, and the Hellkite was drawn into hand on the same turn. Meaning 3 hits with Akroma didn't kill before enough Elves! attacked. Again, all the card draw was being countered, or Null Rod was stopping Clamp.
Like Rich found, running a T1 Llanowar Elf into a T1 Ancestral can be bad times for Elves!

Why is my testing so far from showing the results that everyone indicates this deck should have?
I'm tempted to put Predator Dragon in the deck, since often it would have 5-6 Elves! in play, but no remaining draw engine, and swinging with 1/1 men just wont get the job done fast enough.

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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2008, 04:35:50 pm »

Not to sound elitist or condescending (too late!), but I was strongly considering starting an ELVES! thread in the Open Forum.  My concern is that in the Improvement forum the deck is not going to get the correct amount of well thought out, tourney level critique that it needs.  But, Iíll wait and hope we get more insight from players like Rich and Owen who have tested the deck in strong T1 environments.

First, I too agree that the deck should be Mono G (for now). 2nd with the current strategy in mind of; Combo win with Aggro win as a back-up, I think these are the core cards that are difficult to debate at this time:

// Creatures
    4  Nettle Sentinel
    4  Heritage Druid
    4  Llanowar Elves
    4  Fyndhorn Elves
    4  Birchlore Rangers
    2  Elvish Visionary ***
    4  Quirion Ranger ***
    4  Wirewood Symbiote ***

// Spells
    4  Glimpse of Nature
    4  Summoner's Pact
    4  Skullclamp
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Grapeshot ***

Right now 4 Rangers and 4 Symbiotes seem like they are the strongest plays.  But, if I were to cut any STAPLE creatures I would begin there.  But, their abilities when used at the correct time are critical to getting the deck running when it doesn't seem like it can begin to accelerate.

This is one of the toughest aspects of the deck.  There are some very obvious lines of play (e.g., Forest-->Elf, Sentinel + Heritage).  But, there are also less subtle lines of play with cards like Ranger and Symbiote that will make or break the deck against a strong opponent.  Lastly, the Visionary is key to small boosts if you are without a Clamp or even a GoN.  I think 2 is the perfect #.

The remaining non-land slots are a bit more debatable.  But, not by much:
    1  Regal Force - Sometimes it feels like win more.  But, the card draw it can produce can really put you over-the-top in one shot.

    1  Viridian Shaman - In 99% of the metas this has to be at least a 1-of in the main.  So, you could almost argue that it is "Core".

Wirewood Hivemaster - I don't think this card makes the cut.  It seems like it is "win-more" for the aggro win condition.  But, it could be a SB consideration. 

Eternal Witness - I see the synergy. And when you have the Sentinel / Heritage engine going this is perfect.  But, I'm concerned about it when I don't have a big mana engine on-line yet.  It is making me consider testing Regrowth.

Elvish Spirit Guide - I don't like it for the reasons Rich / Owen mentioned.  It accelerates my mana.  But, it won't up my Storm, won't draw me a card off GoN if it is pitched for mana, and can't be single Clamped.

Grapeshot #2 - I'm not fully convinced that a single GS is ideal.  So, I'm looking closely at how 2 would impact the deck.

The mana base:

I think Rich is spot on with the fetch lands (+ also cutting Bayou for Forest).  Unless you have tons of Stifles in your meta I think the deck thinning advantage of the Fetches is crucial to prevent stalls.


Other Cards mentioned:

Gaea's Cradle - I too have dismissed it from the beginning.  Test it and you'll see why it is not ideal.

Imperious Perfect - Contributes too much to the backup plan of Aggro win.  Test and you'll find that the aggro doesn't need any more help, it happens anyway!

Wirewood Herald - Not too bad.  But, this deck wants as few 2 or 3cc cards as possible.  So space is at a premium.  Also, it synergizes best only with Clamp.  A lot of times you are using GoN.  So, Herald is less attractive than a 1 CC Elf.

Viridian Zealot - Viridian Shaman > Viridian Zealot unless we start to see a lot of Plagues!

Priest of Titania - Summoning sickness makes it a bit less attractive than our other choices.

My current build is Rich's except for -1 Bayou + 1 Forest. No SB yet:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest

4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Elvish Visionary
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Grapeshot
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
4 Skullclamp
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 05:25:04 pm by Nehptis » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2008, 05:06:24 pm »

Zealot is a 2/1, which makes him pretty bad against E-Plague.  I would recommend not using him there.
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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2008, 06:18:32 pm »


1 Grapeshot

You could easily play some fetchlands + a single Tropical Island, in order to play Anc and Walk instead of Elvish Visionary. I just don't want to open a deck to Stifle, which doesn't have to suffer from it.

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« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2008, 06:32:04 pm »

I'm on the fence about Regal Force. There are so many times I draw him that a Viridian Shaman or Elvish Visionary would be better. There are few moments where I need to Summoner's Pact for him and get to the combo, but during those times I wonder if attacking that turn and the next for the win would have been just as fine.

This deck is full of Stifle targets. Look at all the "Cost:Effect" text. If an opponent Stifles your Grapeshot, you probably won't have lost, though. You can pay the Summoner's Pact upkeeps you undoubtedly accumulated, then beat for a turn.
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« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2008, 08:14:44 pm »

Re: Regal Force.  I agree and kept him as fringe and not "Core".  Still, he is currently the best guy for the slot.

I'd like to see some testing results with a Blue Splash.  Ancestral and Walk plays would be great.
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« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2008, 08:38:27 pm »

Re: Regal Force.  I agree and kept him as fringe and not "Core".  Still, he is currently the best guy for the slot.

I'd like to see some testing results with a Blue Splash.  Ancestral and Walk plays would be great.

Part of the power of this deck comes from the fact it has a very stable mana base.  Sure you wanna mess with that?
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« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2008, 08:57:33 pm »

Agreed and I won't change from Mono G at this time.  But, I wouldn't mind seeing the results of someone else trying!
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« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2008, 08:58:14 pm »

Personally I rather go 3/3 split with Q. Ranger and Visionary and possibly even get the 4th Visionary in there. It's very good when the obvious cards that allow you to combo out get dealt with, because Symbiote - Visionary is a mini draw engine in itself and sometimes to go off for Regal Force you just need another elf or two in play and Visionary likely gets you that next one, Pact or Clamp.

Oh and if you're losing to Manaless Ichorid; doing it wrong.
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« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2008, 09:35:12 pm »

Quirion Ranger is awesome on turn 2, and I think 4 is a must. Dropping Regal Force for Elvish Visionary, to me, is an easy choice. I don't know why any of the cool combo creatures would be cut before Llanowar and Fyndhorn Elves. 6 of these guys seem to be working fine for me (with 4 Visionary, 2 Viridian Shaman).
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« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2008, 09:42:11 pm »

I'm not sure whether or not to include Regal Force. The problem with him is that, of course, sometimes you draw him and not a useful card, like the Quirion Ranger that you'd otherwise have had. When that happens, you really miss having another 1/1 elf for G. On the other hand, Regal Force can swoop in and save you when you'd otherwise be devoid of a draw engine. Suppose that you have a large pile of Elves. Normally, to leverage that into a combo win, you'd need either Glimpse or Clamp. That's eight cards out of sixty, and you have no means to either find them or make sure that they resolve. However, Regal Force is another combo piece. With him in the deck, you have have an additional five combo engines, thanks to the Pacts. Sure, they're not as good as Clamps since they cost a lot more; but they're fully capable of ending the game should you have the mana. In that way, Regal Force makes the deck more consistently able to combo off, despite the fact that he sometimes clogs up the hand.
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« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2008, 11:31:29 pm »

I'm not sure whether or not to include Regal Force. The problem with him is that, of course, sometimes you draw him and not a useful card, like the Quirion Ranger that you'd otherwise have had. When that happens, you really miss having another 1/1 elf for G. On the other hand, Regal Force can swoop in and save you when you'd otherwise be devoid of a draw engine. Suppose that you have a large pile of Elves. Normally, to leverage that into a combo win, you'd need either Glimpse or Clamp. That's eight cards out of sixty, and you have no means to either find them or make sure that they resolve. However, Regal Force is another combo piece. With him in the deck, you have have an additional five combo engines, thanks to the Pacts. Sure, they're not as good as Clamps since they cost a lot more; but they're fully capable of ending the game should you have the mana. In that way, Regal Force makes the deck more consistently able to combo off, despite the fact that he sometimes clogs up the hand.

Instead of regal force, I replaced it with Fastbond which has been pretty sweet.  A couple less fetch, and presto tons of mana and an auto win with any elves + skullclamp. I also threw in one concordant crossroads for fun, but it is win more, not important.

Also tried: Intruder Alarm (win more- but fun) Earthcraft (same) Channel (same)

I think regal force goes back in, and fastbond takes the place of one elf. 
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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2008, 12:51:58 am »

Quirion Ranger is awesome on turn 2, and I think 4 is a must. Dropping Regal Force for Elvish Visionary, to me, is an easy choice. I don't know why any of the cool combo creatures would be cut before Llanowar and Fyndhorn Elves. 6 of these guys seem to be working fine for me (with 4 Visionary, 2 Viridian Shaman).

QR is fine, I don't disagree. But it simply comes down to what cards are better outside of the combo turns (visionary by a mile) and how good are they during the combo turns (QR is basically another Heritage Druid activation and mana neutral if you can replay the Forest. Meanwhile Visionary draws you a card. So... pretty close). Like I'm pretty sure the only reason most people think QR is actually important is because they never played the deck w/o it to begin with. It's good, but the thing with this deck is you already have SO MANY ways to make mana and a relatively few cards to go along with them that just win the game. That's my problem with cutting Regal Force as well, he wins or seals up like 15-20% of my games simply because I drew him early and can set-up an easy Nettle loop to hit 7 mana w/o additional draw or if I have S. Pact w/o Glimpse or Clamp.

Like it's possible it isn't necessary in this version, but for one slot to have a tutorable draw engine and otherwise some way to take advantage of the ridic mana involved, I'd need a really good reason to cut it.
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2008, 06:06:18 pm »

Is there a particular reason not to play Tendrils of Agony over Grapeshot? It is relevant when playing Ichorid that runs Ancestor's Chosen.
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2008, 06:28:13 pm »

Grapeshot handles Platinum Angel.
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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2008, 08:40:00 pm »

Quote
It is relevant when playing Ichorid that runs Ancestor's Chosen.

How? Max they gain like 40+ life, if you chain everything you still get a 40-50 point Grapeshot and 30+ Elves in play, clear board and them with 0 bridges that turn. Ichorid can't beat that unless you have some really ridiculous scenario in mind here.

If you actually care about infinite tricks or w/e, Tendrils is awful anyway. Just play the Mirror Entity version. At least then you don't have a dead card.
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« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2008, 10:40:01 pm »

There have been two scenarios to happen to me, even though I'm sure they're both very rare. Sometimes you're not able to cast enough storm because you have a few Glimpse of Natures going and will deck yourself. Another time Grapeshot was the last or second to last card and I couldn't attack for the win.

The example about Platinum Angel is fine, but Tendrils must be better than Mirror Entity.
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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2008, 11:50:15 pm »

There have been two scenarios to happen to me, even though I'm sure they're both very rare. Sometimes you're not able to cast enough storm because you have a few Glimpse of Natures going and will deck yourself. Another time Grapeshot was the last or second to last card and I couldn't attack for the win.

The example about Platinum Angel is fine, but Tendrils must be better than Mirror Entity.

Why?  Tendrils is awful.  If you have problems with Grapeshot not dealing enough damage, run an Eternal Witness.  Then you can shoot them, witness it back, and shoot them again.  Tendrils doesn't actually do anything that grapeshot can't do.  Mirror Entity actually can do other things and lets you have an infinite damage combo as well (at least infinite if you havent cast a glimpse that turn).  Tendrils doesn't add anything over Grapeshot.
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2008, 11:59:49 pm »

You can always win with Grapeshot, if you have 3 cards left in your deck simply play a 3rd Glimpse and draw 3 or if you have 4 cards left use a Skullclamp twice. As long as you aren't stupid you can figure out what you need to do before you get to 1 card left in your deck and have no Grapeshot.

Also it can kill random stuff like Welder and Bob while also being just fine to headshot for 5-6 damage, where Tendrils is hard to cast and isn't flexible.
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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2008, 12:02:19 am »

So, considering this is vintage, has anyone tested any blue additions? Time walk seems like a better sub for a second grapeshot since it does something when not going off, and recall is pretty good in general. The splash shouldn't be that hard with fetches and birchlore's, and opens you up to more sideboard options - maybe pact of negation out of the board? If you wanted to stay with only 2 colors you could go g/u and use brain freeze as an alt to grapeshot. Is platz such a consideration that grapeshot is super important pre-board?
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« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2008, 01:55:08 am »

So, considering this is vintage, has anyone tested any blue additions? Time walk seems like a better sub for a second grapeshot since it does something when not going off, and recall is pretty good in general. The splash shouldn't be that hard with fetches and birchlore's, and opens you up to more sideboard options - maybe pact of negation out of the board? If you wanted to stay with only 2 colors you could go g/u and use brain freeze as an alt to grapeshot. Is platz such a consideration that grapeshot is super important pre-board?

To be honest, I can't imagine ever wanting to play 2 Grapeshot in this deck. Actually if you add blue I'd probably remove it entirely and just use tons of men + Time Walk as my method of victory. Although you'd probably want the E. Witness just in case you throw it out there turn 2 or something.
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« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2008, 04:52:29 am »

I'm pretty sure Grapeshot is better than Brain Freeze.  For once, Freeze doesn't do anything against people with blessing, plus the fact that grapeshot sorta does something when you dont have 20 storm too.
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« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2008, 10:50:58 am »

I'm still convinced that GShot is the best Storm win for the deck.  Regarding a Blue splash for a Time Walk win.  My problem with U is that #1 I like Mono G.  #2 In game 1 w/o Swarms the Time Walk plan is more fragile than a Storm win.  More decks pack FOW / Drains than they do Stifles.

This thinking has brought me to another concern, Duress / Seize.  I'm wondering if perhaps fitting in an Eternal Witness or a Regrowth is a good call as suggested above.  It would have 3 purposes, #1 if GShot is Duressed away or Stifled then we can still win that turn w/o having to pass and swing FTW next turn.  #2 Getting a countered / Duressed GoN or Clamp back from the GY is nice.  #3 Replaying almost anything from the GY in this deck is pretty decent.

Thoughts on including Witness or Regrowth?  If yes, what to remove?

Also, any Flashback, Replicate or Retrace cards that would synergize with this deck?  (I'm starting a Gatherer search myself.)
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