Elves! (referring to Rich Shay's tournament report)

[Harlequin]

I haven't tested against combo, but based on the speed of the deck - I'm not sure how much good it would do.  Ideally your best chances of a turn 2 win are off the back of a turn 1 Llanwar or kin.  If you have to instead spend that turn planting a Root Maze, I still feel like they will have a good chance to race you.  With a goldfish turn of 2 or 3, you have about a 25-33% chance of racing a given a combo to a win.  which is not ideal...

If anything, you'd probaly be looking to board in cards that speed you up!  Maybe more ESG's?  Then hope they overboard to stop you and end up just slowing down in the process for game 2 and 3. 

But agian, I haven't tested against combo - but I know is going to be a bloodbath.

Having tested alot against control~ish decks:  The card I fear most with this deck is Chalice for 1!  You'll see that alot of my sideboard is about dodging chalice @1.  I think the next more feared card is EE@1 / Keg @1.   Lastly, Sphere and even Thorn oddly enough are probably the next nastiest cards.  I think E-Plague comes down way too late to mater... but turn 1 EE for 1 is such a tremendious beeting if its followed up by decent control.   

Timberwatch elf is just an idea for a chance to beat decks like 9-sphere aggro or something like that.  100% untested for post board, but seems ok on paper against Fish/Shop-Agro.

[nineisnoone]

Though the effect is quite modest, I've been running 4x Horizon Canopy in the main deck.  I don't know if it has done anything groundbreaking, but I've used it's ability to draw a card when otherwise I wouldn't have which is more than any other land would have done.  Also, I don't find the potential death to Wasteland all that terrifying.  As soon as you get a few elves on the table, losing a land isn't that big of a loss.

The white splash would also let you play Gaddock Teeg which lets you answer Chalice of the Void and Engineered Explosives. 

Fastbond is a great addition to the deck. 

Why do you prefer Shaman to Zealot?  I like that Zealot is cheaper and dies to Skullclamp. 

[Harlequin]

It was relevant in more than one game that I could double-destroy using Shaman + Symbiote.

Also when you look at using pact to find the artifact destruction (esp relevant for a 1-of maindeck) Zealot is worse with ALL plans....

Zealot via pact you need:
This turn: 4 + Mana for Win
Next Turn: 2 Now; 6 + Mana for Win | or 4 Now; 4 + Win
3rd Turn: 2 Now; 4 Next turn; 2 + Win

As opposed to Shaman with pact
This turn: 3 + Mana for win
Next turn: 3 Now; 4 + Mana for win
3rd turn: 3 Now; 4 next turn; 0 + win

[Guli]

I have played this deck a couple of times, a turn 1 canonist spells big problems for the decent functioning of this deck. Even with Shaman to get rid of Canonist remains a problem because of Welder bring the canonist back.

That is why i think Harlequin is correct

It was relevant in more than one game that I could double-destroy using Shaman + Symbiote.

Also to get rid of Chalice.

[Nehptis]

- New and improved 1-of 'toolkit' > Viridian Shaman, Elvish Spirit Guide, Eternal Witness, Vexing Shusher, and Regal Force.  This gives you a real solid main-deck answer to basically everything that could be thrown at you.  Shusher and Shaman are definatly situational, but give you a glimmer of hope against certain decks.  ESG and Witness are definatly powerhouses that actually CAN jumpstart a broken combo, or supercharge a weak combo.  Witness in particular is a card that can turn a shakey combo attempt into a solid victory; and I find myself tutoring for it frequently. 

So these are your basic changes to what I consider to be the best performing list:

-1 Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elf: Agreed this can be cut.
-2 Elvish Visionary: Same here.  I feel the same as you do about its effectiveness.
+1 Fastbond: Love the card and I can't wait to test it here.
+1 ESG: Still need to be convinced.  If I still don't like it then a Fyndhorn Elf goes back.
+1 Vexing Shusher (or Visionary): So iffy.  But, I'll try it.  My concerns are that against control I'd rather just aggro them to death.  Against COTV it could be helpful.  But, Shaman is an easy fix, as well.

1 Eternal Witness: IMO this has been Core for a week or so in my testing.

BTW, your list is 60 cards w/o Grapeshot.  So, 1 more card needs to go, for me it's Symbiote.

[Xyre]

I'm not sure whether or not to include Regal Force. The problem with him is that, of course, sometimes you draw him and not a useful card, like the Quirion Ranger that you'd otherwise have had. When that happens, you really miss having another 1/1 elf for G. On the other hand, Regal Force can swoop in and save you when you'd otherwise be devoid of a draw engine. Suppose that you have a large pile of Elves. Normally, to leverage that into a combo win, you'd need either Glimpse or Clamp. That's eight cards out of sixty, and you have no means to either find them or make sure that they resolve. However, Regal Force is another combo piece. With him in the deck, you have have an additional five combo engines, thanks to the Pacts. Sure, they're not as good as Clamps since they cost a lot more; but they're fully capable of ending the game should you have the mana. In that way, Regal Force makes the deck more consistently able to combo off, despite the fact that he sometimes clogs up the hand.

Instead of regal force, I replaced it with Fastbond which has been pretty sweet.  A couple less fetch, and presto tons of mana and an auto win with any elves + skullclamp. I also threw in one concordant crossroads for fun, but it is win more, not important.

Also tried: Intruder Alarm (win more- but fun) Earthcraft (same) Channel (same)

I think regal force goes back in, and fastbond takes the place of one elf. 

Fastbond is doing it wrong, sadly. While it is great with Quirion Dryad, usually your concern isn't mana production as much as it's drawing cards, and with only 14 lands, usually you are only getting G back for your G investment, which doesn't merit cutting an elf which does the same thing and works with Glimpse and Clamp.

I like the idea of Horizon Canopy, although if the deck only plays ~14 lands, you want to have a high number of fetches, and Horizon Canopy is trouble when Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon are thrown into the mix. While turn 1 Moon isn't a common play, you don't want to end up in a situation where you're facing down a hand without a green source.

[nineisnoone]

I am torn on Fastbond.  It does accelerate you a turn, but it doesn't change your win condition. You still need to hit Glimpse/Clamp to win and often it doesn't really matter if you play out all your elves faster because you still need to draw into one or the other.  Of course, sometimes it does work to speed you up.  Normally I'd say it would be an easy inclusion in a deck like this, but the list is so tight that it's difficult to judge.

I see the points on Shaman... I always ran him in the SB over Zealot.  I suppose the 1 toughness on Zealot is sort of moot since even though you can't single clamp Shaman there should be plenty of other elves to clamp anyways.  So that would leave his only advantage as costing 2 mana over 3 mana for just normal playing an elf purposes... and you're probably right that the 1 mana is worth the free artifact hate.

As far as Horizon Canopy goes, I've also found that sometimes it interferes with Quiron Dryad sometimes.  So I've cut them down to 3.  I might even cut it down to two.  They work best comboing out and you draw it and you haven't played a land that turn.  They've definitely been useful though, especially when you are drawing more lands then you'd like to. 

The Moon effects are there.  There were times that I had Canopy as my only mana source, but I think cutting it down to 3 or 2 will make the odds of being totally shut out mana-wise negligible.

[btkrodel]

ive tried making this  this is what mine looked like

lands
12 forest
1 geas cradle

creatures
1 viridian shaman
1 eternal witness
1 elvish harbinger
1 regal force
3 wirewood hive master
4 wire wood symbiote
4 heritage druid
4 llanawar elves
4 nettle sentinel
4 elvish visonary


spells
4 chrome mox
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
1 grapeshot
1 lotus petal
3 skull clamp
3 glimpse of nature
1 wheel of fortune

sb
2 viridian shaman
2 claw of caller
2 pithing needle
1 fracturing gust
1 krosan grip
2 genesis chamber
2 leyline of life force
3 leyline of void

tell me what u think

[Nehptis]

I wussed out and played TPS over Elves last Sat.  But, did do some testing in between rounds against Stax and Oath.

There really isn't much Oath out there.  So, it was more of a fun test than anything else.  But, that goes as expected.  If you can race them to your combo or aggro win then it's yours.  If they counter a Clamp or GoN and then Oath quickly you're toast.

Stax was interesting in that I won with aggro.  COTV didn't resolve early enough to make an impact.  However, a Sphere and then a 3Sphere did come out.  But, I had the Sent combo going and then resolved a Shaman.

Anyone try Elves in a tourney this past weekend?

[tito del monte]

So, 1 more card needs to go, for me it's Symbiote.

How do you feel about cutting Symbiote altogether? I've been goldfishing Harlequin's 'tool kit' build and really like it. Having already cut the one Symbiote to squeeze in Grape Shot, it does feel like if anything else was to be cut for more disruption or draw it could be these. So maybe putting some number of visionaries back in or something like +1 visionary, +2 weird harvest, or +1 visionary, +2 commune with nature - which is cheap, and helps dig up the one-of creatures in the deck.

[Nehptis]

Visionaries are out in my build.  I re-assesed Symbiote's value and kept it as a 4 of.  I'm liking Fastbond thus far especially with the Ranger synergy.

This is my current test build:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Eternal Witness
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Fastbond
1 Grapeshot
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
4 Skullclamp

[tito del monte]

Visionaries are out in my build.  I re-assesed Symbiote's value and kept it as a 4 of.  I'm liking Fastbond thus far especially with the Ranger synergy.

I think that makes 61 cards, which is a bit of pain. So probably will have to lose one of those Symbiotes. 

[dark burn]

I still dont understand the point of fastbond.  What does it add to the deck?  Its not a win condition, draw spell, or elf.  What does it do?

[Nehptis]

Sorry Shusher was a new card I was testing.  So you can -1 it or -1 a mana elf or -1 a Symbiote..whatever.

Fastbond is on the fence.  Test it and you will see it's value. But true it doesn't draw a card and is not an elf.  But, it does get you extra mana and thru mana pockets in your Library.

[Harlequin]

I still dont understand the point of fastbond.  What does it add to the deck?  Its not a win condition, draw spell, or elf.  What does it do?

Black Lotus isn't a win condition, draw spell, or elf either...  But its usually good when you draw it.  Fastbond serves the same role as lotus in the deck - it can give you a nice little supercharge mid-combo.  That little burst is usually enough to push a "This will probably get there" combo attempt into a "Now I've got it" combo attempt.  Fastbond makes Clamp, Sybiote, and Qirion all more powerful.  And those cards are all on the weaker side of the deck.  So its a card that makes all you're weakest cards stronger.  It also makes your fetch lands stronger because you can thin your deck more while you are comboing.  So your draws are all more likely to be green.

[Nehptis]

Has any one played this at a tourney recently?  We need some more actual results to analyze the deck further beyond Rich's build.

Please post your info here.

[btkrodel]

so i ran elves at blue bell here was my list

creatures
1  Regal Force
    1  Viridian Shaman
    4  Elvish Visionary
    4  Nettle Sentinel
    4  Heritage Druid
    4  Llanowar Elves
    4  Wirewood Symbiote
    3  Wirewood Hivemaster
    4  Birchlore Rangers
    1  Eternal Witness
    1  Elvish Spirit Guide

spells
   4  Glimpse of Nature
  4 chrome mox
    3  Skullclamp
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Grapeshot
    1 wheel of fortune
    1 mox ruby

lands
1 geas cradle
12 forest

sb
2 genesis chamber
2 viridian shaman
3 leyline of void
3 piting needle
1 krosan grip
2 caller of claw
2 ancient grudge

will post matchups after work