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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2009, 06:49:34 pm » |
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The list is really fun to play and gives you much more strategic decisions to make than most r/g beats decks. I also saw it did well recently on the tourny reports forums. Nice deck
Yeah, Ive been doing some testing and it does take some getting used to, NOT dumping beaters on the board and playing the waiting game. Ohw and something just hit me: In my logic this deck would do even better in proxy tournament's, since more people will be playing power/stuff the don't have but don't to play. In which case this deck will hose the format a lot more since there'll be less Goblin/random aggro/budget hate because that's what this deck easily loses to in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong. Greetzzz, Robin. Yes, without a doubt, in a tournament where proxies are allowed and people are playing tons of Power and non-basic lands, this deck will excell. In a meta where everyone is playing Affinity, Elves, and Goblins....well, probably not so much. -Troy |
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grungyboy
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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2009, 08:45:52 pm » |
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hi, i'm new here. i recently completed my R/G beats decks for Vintage. my build is much ike Jamison Bryant's version with a little "improvisation" on my own like using Wild Nacatl instead of Skyshroud Elites (i'm having a hard time looking for SE), main boarding Seal of Primordium, replacing the Black Lotus with a Petal and Elvish Spirit Guide and Simian Spirit Guide for the Moxen. i was wondering what is the difference in Jamison's version and Stephen's aside from budget issues...what are the pros and cons of each build? and can anyone provide me any sites/articles about R/G beats in Vintage ? i would appreciate all the help i can get. thanks  |
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Gruul Anti-Mage  {G} Creature -- Human Berserker 2/2  , Sacrifice Gruul Anti-Mage: Gruul Anti-Mage deals 2 damage to target creature or player.  , Sacrifice Gruul Anti-Mage: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. He breaks your face with ruin and rage. |
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2009, 09:21:44 pm » |
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Heya, Welcome to the Mana Drain! hi, i'm new here. i recently completed my R/G beats decks for Vintage. my build is much ike Jamison Bryant's version with a little "improvisation" on my own like using Wild Nacatl instead of Skyshroud Elites (i'm having a hard time looking for SE), main boarding Seal of Primordium, replacing the Black Lotus with a Petal and Elvish Spirit Guide and Simian Spirit Guide for the Moxen. i was wondering what is the difference in Jamison's version and Stephen's aside from budget issues...what are the pros and cons of each build? and can anyone provide me any sites/articles about R/G beats in Vintage ? i would appreciate all the help i can get. thanks The main difference is really how each deck reacted to its own meta. At the time Jamison made his deck, Stax decks were out in force to prey on Gush decks. His R/G Beats deck played tons of permanents-especially creatures- that let it mitigate problem cards Tangle Wire and Thorn of Amethyst. He rocked that SCG P9 tournament because no one was looking to play against a powerful weenie hoarde that also packed plenty of artifact disruption in the board. Stephens list was designed in an entirely different meta (the current one). Right now, Vintage is dominated by Mana Drain control decks that rely heavily on artifacts with activation costs. These include Grinstone, Moxen, Time Vault, and Voltaic Key. Stephen's list tosses the fast aggro creatures for main deck disruption like Null Rod, Chalice of the Void, and Pyroblast. Right now, if I were to choose a build to play, I would choose the Christmas Beatings list over the traditional R/G Beatz. The traditional build does not pack enough disruption to effectively deal with the fast mana and fast assembling combos of current Mana Drain/Blue-based control decks. Workshop decks (the prey of traditional R/G Beats) are at their lowest ebb in the current metagame in years. Thus, Jamison's build is less likely to perform like it did prior to the June 2008 restrictions. Below are some links about recent R/G Beatz decks, their design, and their performance: http://forums.starcitygames.com/viewtopic.php?t=314818http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37125.0http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37167.0http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37219.0http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37260.0I hope you find them helpful. Please feal free to ask any follow-up questions  Peace, -Troy |
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overseer1234
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« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2009, 10:03:50 am » |
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Wow, this deck is really putting up good scores The only thinhig I'm still not to sure about is the sideboard. Leyline feels shakey (once bounces you're screwed) and I'm not to sure about the 1 trinisphere either (random without a tutor or draw engine). Also, I don't think 2 pyrokinesis is enough to help in aggro mirror's. Another think Ive found out the hard way when playing against shop is to ALWAYS leave a seal on the field for a possible chalice at 2... it pretty much cancels out all your answers against shop (seal and grudge). Would shattering spree not be better sideboard card against shop, or is grudge just simply better because of the instant speed? Greetzzz, Robin. |
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2009, 10:25:13 am » |
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Wow, this deck is really putting up good scores The only thinhig I'm still not to sure about is the sideboard. Leyline feels shakey (once bounces you're screwed) and I'm not to sure about the 1 trinisphere either (random without a tutor or draw engine). Also, I don't think 2 pyrokinesis is enough to help in aggro mirror's. Another think Ive found out the hard way when playing against shop is to ALWAYS leave a seal on the field for a possible chalice at 2... it pretty much cancels out all your answers against shop (seal and grudge). Would shattering spree not be better sideboard card against shop, or is grudge just simply better because of the instant speed? Greetzzz, Robin. Yeah, I can't say that I like Leyline of the Void that much either. I'm going to test out Tormod's Crypt instead the next chance I get. I take out my own Chalices and Null Rods against Ichorid, so there's no anti-synergy there. I leave in my Enchantment hate in case they play their own Leyline of the Void, and that doubles as artifact hate in case they play a Chalice at 0. So, I'm fairly confident - theoritically at least - that Tormod's can perform good enough to get me the win. Faerie Macabre is another option for you, but not as good IMO. Chalice at 2 can be a bit of a headache. However, this deck also runs plenty of Land hate, so it's still very possible to win with it. If you want to replace the Ancient Grudges with Shattering Sprees and/or Krosan Grips, then I think that would be just fine. The sideboard of this deck is still in flux, so if you do find something that works well for you, please share it! The reason Ancient Grudge was originally put in the sideboard was because it is cheap and can be cast twice. Or if it is countered, you still have a chance to blow up a Painter' Servant, Grindstone, Time Vault, or Voltaic Key before it's too late. Right now, I'm also runnning 2 Deglamers in my sideboard. I've lost so many games to Tinker -> DSC that I decided that I wanted to add in extra DSC hate. Deglamer gives me 2 more cards that can get him off the table. Anyway, the sideboard is definately a place to experiment. I hope the deck performs well for you. Let me just stress that you must be patient with it and play as tightly as possible. Pumping out your creatures as fast as you can is the wrong thing to do. Playing control pieces like Null Rod, Chalice, Seal of Primordium, and Wasteland first is the key to winning with this deck. Do not over extend yourself and only tap out if you are sure your spell has a good chance of resolving. I guess that's kinda obvious advice, but it's all I got Good luck! Peace, -Troy |
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grungyboy
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« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2009, 09:27:40 pm » |
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Thanks for the warm welcome Troy honestly i was very thrilled about seeing a thread about R/G beats and at the same time seeing R/G beats placing in the top ten. and oh yeah, congrats to you for winning . i'll probably play the R/G beats that i built for a while since it took me 2 months to build but i will try the x-mas beatings set up since i have everything in the list except for the CoTV and the null rods. actually i'm about to get the CoTVs in a week or so. it's really nice to see that R/G beats is active again.i'd like to thank you for the links as well. i hope this thread would be active for a long time. |
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Gruul Anti-Mage {G} Creature -- Human Berserker 2/2 , Sacrifice Gruul Anti-Mage: Gruul Anti-Mage deals 2 damage to target creature or player. , Sacrifice Gruul Anti-Mage: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. He breaks your face with ruin and rage. |
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serracollector
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« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2009, 09:41:58 pm » |
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I have an old R/G beatz deck I made a few years ago that got me first place in a t1 tourney and top6 at a t1 in Columbus that Smemmen was at (I still hate your tog deck lol): http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18970.0There have been quite a few changes in the meta obv since then, but some of the cards in it I could still see very viable today examples: -Artifact Mutation= not expensive, fits the budget, takes out SO many artifacts, including newer cards that count as artifacts even tho they are colored, and provides a clock. And it an instant. won me so many games back then, could probably win MORE now. -Rancor= is jitte really that much better when you consider CC and the fact that Rancor returns to hand? I still find rancor to be amazing! -Blood Moon/Blood Moon guy= still just as good as ever -Fire/Ice= people still play with fish, weenies, welders, and such right? 2 for 1 is card advantage if Im not mistaken. -Gorilla Shaman= Its ok if you drop the Kird Apes, but this monkey is still sick. People still play with moxes right? Or wait, now they can play with A LOT MORE MOXES. (Chrome/Diamond). Mox Monkey turns them into HUGE advatage since opponents either have to chunk a land or colored card to use these moxen. Card advantage is good. Just some of my old school tech. Smemmen what are your thoughts on these cards in the current meta? Thanks. John |
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nineisnoone
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The Laughing Magician
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« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2009, 12:13:48 am » |
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-Artifact Mutation= not expensive, fits the budget, takes out SO many artifacts, including newer cards that count as artifacts even tho they are colored, and provides a clock. And it an instant. won me so many games back then, could probably win MORE now. Is this better than Ancient Grudge? That's the card that I usually look for with red/green artifact hate. My first guess is that Grudge is probably better if it is your only hate card. But if you are running Tin Street Hooligan AND Artifact Mutation... that looks really strong. Beats + Artifact Destruction all in a single card. 3 Windswept Heath 2 Plateau 2 Savannah 3 Flooded Strand 3 Taiga 1 Mountain 1 Forest 4 Wild Nacatl 4 Grim Lavamancer 4 Children of Korlis 4 Tarmogoyf 4 Tin Street Hooligan 2 Ethersworn Canonist 2 Vexing Shusher 2 Gaddock Teeg 3 Stingscourger 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Emerald 1 Black Lotus 4 AEther Vial 4 Skullclamp 4 Red Elemental Blast SIDEBOARD 4 Artifact Mutation 4 Pyrostatic Pillar 4 Path of the Exile 3 Pithing Needle |
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« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 04:15:24 pm by nineisnoone »
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I laugh a great deal because I like to laugh, but everything I say is deadly serious.
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the boogie man
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« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2009, 12:30:11 am » |
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artifact mutation and stingscourger are an awesome combo against collosus. 4 seems like a lot, though, maybe a couple to supplement the grudges? Mor ein the side would be key, though.
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Unrestrict: Gush, Flash, Frantic search, fact or fiction (probably), and burning wish if it doesn't suck now.
this may be the last time you hear the boogie song.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2009, 01:52:18 am » |
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Actually, that last slot is pretty much the meta slot. It becomes Pillar if I'm expecting more TPS. Path of the Exile (better than Swords here... should change that) against aggro. And REB against control.
I suppose being more Tezz oriented it probably should be REB's in the main deck, but I just threw it up there to show the anti-artifact formation and also because that it felt like the most "neutral" formation since it can become creatures.
changes.... -2 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Cannonist, +1 Skullclamp, -4 Swords + 4 Exile, -4 Mogg Fanatic + 4 Grim Lavamancer...
Skullclamp + Stingscourger = GOOD.
I almost want Artifact Mutation over Tin-Street Hooligan for the same reason. Artifact Mutation on a Null Rod casting and equipping Skullclamp to the tokens is 5 mana for 4 cards... and you still have the Skullclamp in play and you still destroyed their artifact.
Dropped the Teeg for a Cannonist because you can do Artifact Mutation + Skullclamp + Cannonist. Equip Cannonist with Skullclamp. And then you Artifact Mutation on Cannonist (draw 2 cards), equip on the 2 saprolings (4 cards), which is 6 cards for 4 mana if you don't count the initial investment.
I decided to go with Lavamancer over Fanatic because without Swords your Fish/Aggro match-up becomes more difficult. Though realistically, you should out-aggro most decks.
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« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 01:59:52 am by nineisnoone »
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I laugh a great deal because I like to laugh, but everything I say is deadly serious.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2009, 09:24:28 pm » |
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Dropped the Teeg for a Cannonist because you can do Artifact Mutation + Skullclamp + Cannonist. Equip Cannonist with Skullclamp. And then you Artifact Mutation on Cannonist (draw 2 cards), equip on the 2 saprolings (4 cards), which is 6 cards for 4 mana if you don't count the initial investment.
I decided to go with Lavamancer over Fanatic because without Swords your Fish/Aggro match-up becomes more difficult. Though realistically, you should out-aggro most decks.
What is your metagame like where you play? |
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nineisnoone
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The Laughing Magician
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« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2009, 10:55:00 pm » |
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What is your metagame like where you play? I don't play enough to really say I have a "meta" I am looking at, so I usually just gear my deck towards with I think is good, i.e. the decks that I feel would be competitive given current cards/tech. So I basically anticipate hitting few Tez/Drain decks and TPS variants, at least one Rod fish variants, and then a variety of "stuff" with Ichorid and Stax not being necessarily more frequent but more important to deal with. I think I undervalue Tez/Drain a bit, but I don't see it being as good as the number players would indicate and feel its more that people just like playing Drain and it is plenty of good enough to win with, which it hasn't been in awhile. And if you asked due to the cutting of Teegs, I decided to go back to a 2x Cannonist, 2x Teeg, 2x Shusher variation. The Artifact Mutations went to the board as well (not worth it for less a cheap artifact) with REBS coming in. |
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I laugh a great deal because I like to laugh, but everything I say is deadly serious.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2009, 08:14:04 am » |
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And if you asked due to the cutting of Teegs, I decided to go back to a 2x Cannonist, 2x Teeg, 2x Shusher variation. The Artifact Mutations went to the board as well (not worth it for less a cheap artifact) with REBS coming in.
No, that's not really why I asked. I just thought it might be good for you to start a new development thread for your deck since it's moved pretty far from the decklist proposed by Stephen in his article on which this thread is based. You'll probably get some better feedback, IMO. |
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nineisnoone
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The Laughing Magician
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« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2009, 09:41:27 am » |
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I laugh a great deal because I like to laugh, but everything I say is deadly serious.
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overseer1234
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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2009, 08:05:02 pm » |
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I'm attending at a tournament tomorrow (later on the day since it's 2 am for me). I'll be playing this deck but with this sideboard: 2x Pithing Needle 4x Tormod's Crpt 3x Ancient Grudge 3x Pyrokinesis 3x Red Elemental Blast Anny last second advice is appreciated, but if there isn't any price for the best unpowered/budget deck then the Lotus Petal will be replaced by a Black Lotus since it's a 10 proxy event, so I hope this deck will face a lot of Tezz and other drain deck (maybe some shop) and little combo so I think this deck should preform pretty good. If the deck preforms well, then expect a nice report, if it doesn't,... well something to help the anyone else that try's to pilot this deck in a "less than OK" environment/matchup . Greetzzzz & Thanks, Robin. |
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2009, 01:03:03 am » |
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I'm attending at a tournament tomorrow (later on the day since it's 2 am for me). I'll be playing this deck but with this sideboard: 2x Pithing Needle 4x Tormod's Crpt 3x Ancient Grudge 3x Pyrokinesis 3x Red Elemental Blast Anny last second advice is appreciated, but if there isn't any price for the best unpowered/budget deck then the Lotus Petal will be replaced by a Black Lotus since it's a 10 proxy event, so I hope this deck will face a lot of Tezz and other drain deck (maybe some shop) and little combo so I think this deck should preform pretty good. If the deck preforms well, then expect a nice report, if it doesn't,... well something to help the anyone else that try's to pilot this deck in a "less than OK" environment/matchup . Greetzzzz & Thanks, Robin. Not sure, but Relic Of Progenitus might be better than Crypt against Ichorid as they'll often set Chalice at 0. |
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"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2009, 09:18:40 am » |
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I'm attending at a tournament tomorrow (later on the day since it's 2 am for me). I'll be playing this deck but with this sideboard: 2x Pithing Needle 4x Tormod's Crpt 3x Ancient Grudge 3x Pyrokinesis 3x Red Elemental Blast Anny last second advice is appreciated, but if there isn't any price for the best unpowered/budget deck then the Lotus Petal will be replaced by a Black Lotus since it's a 10 proxy event, so I hope this deck will face a lot of Tezz and other drain deck (maybe some shop) and little combo so I think this deck should preform pretty good. If the deck preforms well, then expect a nice report, if it doesn't,... well something to help the anyone else that try's to pilot this deck in a "less than OK" environment/matchup . Greetzzzz & Thanks, Robin. Not sure, but Relic Of Progenitus might be better than Crypt against Ichorid as they'll often set Chalice at 0. Well, yeah, but that turns your Goyfs into 0/1's. When I play Ichorid I keep my artifact and enchantment hate in just incase they play something like Leyline of the Void or Chalice or even a Black Lotus. I don't have much of a problem with putting Crypts in the sideboard instead of Leylines since I still see Ichorid players putting bounce cards and Emerald Charm in their sideboard. Peace, -Troy |
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overseer1234
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« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2009, 02:28:19 pm » |
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OK so I'm back from the tournament and whent 2-4... However the deck is good I just played really bad.. (having only 4 hours of sleep + a hanover didn't realy help ) Rond 1 Peter with TPS. First round and immediately against my friend.. well we played enough to know how this goe's G1: I get him to 4, he try's to bounce null rods (2) EOT , I have blast, he has FoW and combo's next turn... G2: I have turn 1 chalice and rod, but only get fanatics so he has plenty of time to refine his hand to bouce + combo Round 2 Ichorid: G1: I get lucky, he mulls to 2 then goes and activates bazaar; I waste it, topdeck magus, play play it with SSG and ESG so that's GG. G2: I get out 2 fanatic's that get contagioned, I bounce his moeba with scourger to get rid of a bridge, eventually get down a magus + so grey ogre's they block ichorid's (+ a pyrokinesis I think that time walked me), he then finds more bridges (slowdredging) and dread returns his angel of dispair. I nuke my own magus (pyro) so his bridge's don't give him tokens and play my stingscourger . At this point he's still at 16 and i only have a 2/2 while he only has 5 cards in his library (with one of those cards being bridge ). i win because he removed most of his black creature's for ichorid and he mills himself. ==> Really nice match Round 3 UWB fish (grunt's, confidant's and cutpurse's+null rod and stuff...) G1: I get down nul rod (which does nothing), and proceed to draw only land of a spirit guide that get's countered while grunt eat's me... G2: i get down magus pretty quick + some grey ogre's, and he can't find slaughter pact... G3: mull to 5 keep a 2 land hand, he goes strip on my mountain, and waste on my taiga and that's that, I annoy him with fanatics until he just drops a creature+jitte... Round 4 Controll slaver/painter-stone something... G1: I just go moon chalice, rod, blast, seal,... whatever i just go nuts and he cant really do anything. G2: Here's where I start making mistakes I used grudge to kill the servant instead of first nuking the academy ruins and welders with blast's , this cost's me the game... G3: I mull to 5, and screw up because I misplayed my grudge on his servant, he just activates grindstone in response.. (I know that should have been done the other way around but yeah...) Round 5 reanimate (I think): G1 I go T2 magus+chalice and he doesn't have basic's or play red. G2 I start with 2 crypt's and seal, that's pretty much that... Round 6 Oath We know eachother and Since I'm tired I don't realy care anymore about who wins... G1: I go turn 1 magus with blast backup and that's that G2: She goes T1 mox orchard oath and I don't have seal or stingscourger... G3: I have blast's and stuf, so proceed to drop chalice at 2 so I'm safe from oath, but platinum angel get's hardcasted and ohw yeah.. all my answers are 2CC... Some obligated stuf: Prop's: Nice people Peter, for driving us there Good tasting sandwiches small prices Slop's: My hangover... Manascrew and flood Honestly I really like the deck and maybe (propably) next time when I have some sleep i will preform better . I know this isn't a report to be proud about but I have to say that piloting the deck is a heck of a lot harder than most people might think. I'm definitely going to keep testing this deck as long as the meta is good for it. I hope someone can learn from this mini report and if nobody does... well at least I did Greetzzzz, Robin. |
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2009, 07:39:03 am » |
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Heya, I hope someone can learn from this mini report and if nobody does... well at least I did Thanks for posting your report! I think that your mistakes were understandable given your amount of rest. Christmas Beatings takes an enormous amount of concentration and tight play to win with. One or two small mistakes can lead to a loss really fast. I'm glad you felt like you learned a lot from your experience. I hope you get another chance to play it. Once you get the hang of all the nuances of the deck, I think you'll have a lot of fun and a lot of success. I recently had a chance to play this deck again at a 30 man tournament. I finished third in a really competive field. My final game was really rushed due to circumstances beyond my control and I made a ton of sloppy play errors as a result. Anyway, the top 8 from that tournament are reported here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37345.msg519697 if anyone is interested. Peace, -Troy |
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overseer1234
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« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2009, 09:32:14 am » |
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I see you've changed the board a bit, and played mox monkey's instead of the fanatics in the main.
Was it a meta call, and how did the board work for you?
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2009, 01:43:38 pm » |
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I see you've changed the board a bit, and played mox monkey's instead of the fanatics in the main.
Was it a meta call, and how did the board work for you?
Adding the Gorilla Shaman was a meta call. Ichorid and Elves (I'm starting to question the viability of that archetype) have only be showing up in my meta in the smallest of numbers. Elves especially get stomped out because of the high amount of Slaver, Oath, and Tez that are played. If I thought there was a good chance I'd play an Ichorid deck, I would have stuck with the fanatics. In a heavy, heavy control environment, Mox Monkey is much preferable. I was pretty happy with the board. I'm on record as saying T-crypt is a suitable replacement for Leyline. I like the 4 pyrokenisis vs. Fish decks. That's a matchup that can be hard for this deck. I like having Deglamer for several reasons. Primarily, it gives me another way to handle DSC. Additionally, it can shuffle away artifacts against a Slaver or Stax player or get an Oath off the board long enough for me to win. I included the 2 Moment's Peace because I got a tip that at least one person was going to try a Progenitus Oath deck there that night. Red/Green has no answer for a creature like that, so I had to attack the problem from a different route. The main deck Seals and Wastelands are helpful, but if an Oath creature hits the board I have to be able to deal wiht it in some way. Moment's Peace can buy me 2 turns while I build up an army forcing my opponent not to attack with Progenitus. Once my army gets big enough I can just rush him and win. Or that's the idea anyway. It worked somewhat in practice, but my play was so sloppy that game due to the immanent closing of the store that I will need to test the card some more before I say if it's good or not. Right now, I'm really starting to like cards with Flashback Peace, -Troy |
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the_lord_shaper
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« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2009, 08:30:48 pm » |
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Troy, if you want to buy time vs. that deck try out Elephant Grass. Both of the deck's creatures are black as well.
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"-I didn't know you could stop being a God.
-You can stop being anything."
Delirium and Dream conversing, in Brief Lives (Sandman).
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2009, 08:49:17 pm » |
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Troy, if you want to buy time vs. that deck try out Elephant Grass. Both of the deck's creatures are black as well.
Interesting find, Shaper. The surprise factor of Moment's Peace has some meaningful value for me, but the fact that Elephant Grass can buy me up to 4 or 5 turns has some value as well. Ichorid might just deck himself on that. Obviously it's value will increase if Progenitus Oath and Ichorid see a major upsurge (or other marginal players like Sui-Black or BUG fish w/ lots of black creatures increase). It's something I'll play around with in my testing! Thanks for pointing it out to me. I never would have remembered that card. Peace, -Troy |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2009, 10:00:24 pm » |
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Troy, et al.
What do you think about this change:
4 Null Rod
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Stingscourger
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Seal of Primoridum
4 Pyroblast
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tiaga
3 Forest
3 Mountain
Do you think that we could cut Chalice for Shaman? Or is that a bad idea?
I still think that this deck is a fantastic choice for many metagames.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2009, 10:10:41 pm » |
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I still think that this deck is a fantastic choice for many metagames.
It absolutely is! I'll have to take some time think about the change you suggested. Would you keep the same sideboard you originally suggested in your article, or has it evolved in your mind since then? Peace, -Troy |
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urweak
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« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2009, 12:13:27 am » |
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How well does this deck do vs storm? When i played my version last year, the reason i stoped playing it was b/c it just rolled over to storm. Even with Root Maze, Chalice of the Void and Null Rod + SB Pyrostatic Pillars i didnt seem to be enough. Troy, et al.
What do you think about this change:
4 Null Rod
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Stingscourger
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Seal of Primoridum
4 Pyroblast
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tiaga
3 Forest
3 Mountain
Do you think that we could cut Chalice for Shaman? Or is that a bad idea?
I still think that this deck is a fantastic choice for many metagames.
Do you really need to take out the Chalices to make room for the Gorillas? Couldnt you just drop some stuff here and there to make room? These are my old versions for ideas, however i dont know if dropping 4x to 3x-2x is a good idea. 2x Stingscourger 4x Lighting Bolt 3x Gorilla Shaman 4x Simian Spirit Guide 2x Tin Street Hooligan 3x Magus of the Moon 3x Kird Ape 4x Tarmogoyf 3x Wild Mongrel 4x Root Maze 1x Elvish Spirit Guide 1x Thornweld Archer 5x Forest 4x Mountains 4x Taiga 1x Strip Mine 3x Wasteland 2x Wooded Foothills 1x Artifact Mutation 4x Null Rod 2x Chalice of the Void S/B 2x Krosan Grip 1x Artifact Mutation 4x Pyrokinesis 4x Pyrostatic Pillar 2x Red Elemental Blast 2x Pyroblast Then it changed to this after Vexing Shusher was printed Lands: 4x Taiga 4x Mountain 3x Wasteland 2x Wooded Foothills 5x Forest 1x Strip Mine Creatures 4x Tarmogoyf 3x Simian Spirit Guide 3x Kird Ape 3x Gorilla Shaman 3x Magus of the Moon 2x Stingscourger 2x Vexing Shusher 3x Tin Street Hooligan 2x Wild Mongrel 3x Elvish Spirit Guide Spells 4x Lightning Bolt 4x Root Maze 4x Null Rod 1x Artifact Mutation Sideboard: 2x Red Elemental Blast 2x Pyroblast 4x Pyrostatic Pillar 2x Greater Gargadon 2x Krosan Grip 3x Pyrokinesis Vexhing Shusher is a really nice card, it gets around your Chalices, and with your ESG and SSG you can pitch them to protect your spells. I really love playing R/G, maybe you guys have some suggestions for me so i can dust the deck of and start playing it agian. |
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« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 12:16:50 am by urweak »
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2009, 05:42:27 am » |
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Do you really need to take out the Chalices to make room for the Gorillas? Couldnt you just drop some stuff here and there to make room? These are my old versions for ideas, however i dont know if dropping 4x to 3x-2x is a good idea. This deck has no draw beyond its one card per turn and not tutoring ability at all. If I want the greatest chance possible to see a card in my hand, then I have to play 4 of it. If my opponent Tinkers a DSC into play (a super common move right now) and I only have 2 Stingscourgers in my deck, the chances of me drawing one before I die is slim. No, I strongly believe that this deck should play 4 of every non-restricted spell it has. Otherwise, the consistency will break down really fast. In a format dominated by control, consistency is vital. Okay, I've done some thinking about your changes, Stephen. Obviously Chalice of the Void and Shaman are both strong and each has its advanatages. I wanted to list them out so I could get a clear thought on them: Gorilla Shaman: -Adds aggro to the deck. I've noted before that this deck has a slow clock. Even adding a 1/1 does help. -Better on the draw since I can destroy non-creature artifacts my oppenent playes before I get a chance to play. -Good as both an early and a late game draw. -Allows us to keep Fanatic in the deck which improves the matchup against Ichorid, Welder decks, and Fish (and elves). -Can chump block if necessary. Chalice of the Void: -Costs 0 mana so it can be played turn 1 while leaving your lands open to be used to play Pyroblast -If set at 1, it can counter key spells like A-call, Dark Rit, Duress, and Mystical. -Doesn't rely on red mana to play. If you check out my 3rd place list in the link above, you'll see that I was already experimenting with Shaman. I discovered that once an artifact got into play, I had relatively few cards to deal with it in the main. I felt I needed more artifact distruction as Tinker-DSC was still a major headache. I originally replaced the Fanatic with the Shaman, but the more I think about it, Stephen, the more I like replacing the Chalice. I foud in my last tournament, I was siding out the Chalices a great deal. It would be great if I could set Chalice to 1 or 2 and stop a whole lot of my opponent's spells from being played. The problem is, it would stop my spells as well. This deck has lots of 1 and 2 drops, so one of the key advantages of Chalice is also a detriment to this deck. Also, if I didn't get Chalice in my first 8-9 cards, it was going to be useless that game. And multiples never really helped all that much. Shaman gets around both those problems. I also like keeping the Fanatic in the main to help against aggro and Ichorid. I feel more confident if I have a creature I can sacrifice. So in short, yes, I think your list is a great idea. So far, the only real drawback I see is that opening hands might not be quite as strong. But I was only getting a Chalice in my opener once every three games on average. I don't know if that will be a big deal or not. My suspicion is "not". Count on me to try it out the next chance I get. Peace, -Troy EDIT: Another thing, replacing the Chalices with Shaman shaves another $40 off the price of this deck. Since it's a budget deck, that's all the better! |
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« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 01:23:01 pm by Troy_Costisick »
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policehq
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« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2009, 10:20:14 am » |
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This deck has no draw beyond its one card per turn and not tutoring ability at all. If I want the greatest chance possible to see a card in my hand, then I have to play 4 of it. I like Jamison Bryant's solution, adding 3 Survival of the Fittest and 1 Squee. |
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2009, 08:33:22 am » |
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This deck has no draw beyond its one card per turn and not tutoring ability at all. If I want the greatest chance possible to see a card in my hand, then I have to play 4 of it. I like Jamison Bryant's solution, adding 3 Survival of the Fittest and 1 Squee. At this point, I am reluctant to give up any amount of disruption in favor of nifty tricks like Survival-Squee. Vintage is a very fast environment and taking time to set that up is time this deck has trouble being able to afford. If, however, WotC continues to print more and more disruptive creatures, then your idea may gain some real traction. |
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disrupting specter
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« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2009, 01:14:31 pm » |
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I tried a Vintage 8 Moon deck a while back. It did not do well. However, I like a few points that this makes...
1) Not only is it possible to make a budget deck, it shows the metagame is not impossibly overrun with Tezzeret, as my friends seem to think.
2) There are other accelerants in the format aside from 0 cc artifacts, Mana Drain and occasionally Mishra's Workshop and Rituals.
3) These accelerants need not be used for a combo kill.
4) There is other disruption in the format besides Force of Will, Duress and things coming out of the Workshop.
Warm wishes on The Feast of Stephen!
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