Be Aggressive, B E Aggressive - 0 Land Belcher in Vintage

[GrandpaBelcher]

I was testing this a few times and I found a card that seems better than wraith or seething song.  Summoners pact.  With the pact you can search up tinderwall or elvish spirit guide.  It is like 4 more mana excel in the deck.  Of course, you can only use it if you plan on winning that turn, but it makes the deck a little more consistent.

Seems very awful when half your win conditions are Empty the Warrens.

I have to agree.  There's a difference between aggressive and suicidal.  And though Belcher lends itself well to goldfishing, the things that do well in goldfishing are often much less practical in a tournament setting.  Tournament play is where cards like Goblin Welder stand out and cards like Seething Song get rejected.  I can't imagine Summoner's Pact (or Pact of Negation for that matter) making it even that far.  There are simply too many times when you're winning with Empty the Warrens or winning on turn two or three with Belcher because you had to draw mana.

[dark burn]

belcher is best when it can win on turn 1 and summoners pact helps that.  I have to test it more to see if it is too suicidial, but I was wondering if anyone else has tested it also.

[GrandpaBelcher]

belcher is best when it can win on turn 1 and summoners pact helps that.  I have to test it more to see if it is too suicidial, but I was wondering if anyone else has tested it also.

I did some research.  There's a list from a year and a half ago developed by madmanmike25 that was the most aggressive build of Belcher I've seen.  He reported lots of goldfishing success and speed, but I don't know that anyone sleeved the deck up for a tournament.  It had Serum Powder, Street Wraith, Pact of Negation and Summoners Pact.  There are posts in that thread from a lot of good Belcher players and developers (including Michael Simister, "Lucentspirit," who first developed the deck), and a lot of prospective cards are tested and kept or rejected in that thread.  You might be interested in that, and anyone with an interest in Belcher history might be interested in the thread:  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32803.0.

I'll also be adding some links to the bottom of the first post, if anyone's interested in doing more reading on the deck.

[madmanmike25]

belcher is best when it can win on turn 1 and summoners pact helps that..

I totally agree with that.  Thats the only reason I play Belcher; to either win or lose FAST, but hopefully more of the former.

RE: Summoner's Pact, I think it lends itself to hyper-aggressive Belcher builds.  It's great when you run several colors because you can play with Wild Cantor and use SP to get whatever color you need.  You can also Chrome it out if needed.  Of course I don't run it with EtW, thats just poor judgement.

Speaking of ETW, I tried it and always hated having to use ESG's and SSG's to cast it....Even when I did cast ETW more often than not it still took 3 attacks to win.  Too slow for such a fragile deck imo.  Welder and ETW in your hand?  Good times.

Hmm I got to ask you Loch, do you really consider 4 Gut Responses AND 4 Welders as Being Aggressive?  I kinda don't.  Neither truly help you win fast...and sometimes they even fail at defense.  In my lists when I used 'protection' I preferred PoN, but thats just my style I suppose.  Mostly I just preferred to win fast, I'm not playing Belcher for the long haul.

I like your #3 and #5.  Have no Fear and Forget Failure, thats a good mantra for Belcher.

I don't get to test much these days, but I have tried out Chrome and liked it.  Funny though, because I preferred it in a 1-land Belcher list and it did a superb job of getting rid of excess Land Grants and not to mention Wraiths.  My list also runs B mana for.....you guessed it, Dark Ritual aka the card Rite of Flame will never be.

If nothing else, I will just say that Manamorphose is AWESOME in Belcher and you can really get creative with the colored spells now at your disposal.  Also, I wouldn't put Serum Powders in Belcher now.

Glad to see people still testing out Belcher though,
Mike

p.s. at the end of the day, Belcher is a risky-as-hell deck to take to a tourny.  Better brush up on your coin tossing/die rolling skills.

[Smmenen]

Have you tested Grim Monolith?  If so, how has it been? 

[GrandpaBelcher]

Have you tested Grim Monolith?  If so, how has it been? 

Not extensively, but yes.  It's good with Welder and strong against Workshops since you can play it turn one then wait a turn to use it and ramp mana over several turns.  There are issues with it not producing colored mana (e.g. SSG -> Rite of Flame -> Grim Monolith -> Grim Monolith != Empty the Warrens), but that doesn't come up very often.

I had a mono-black list for a while that used four Grim Monoliths and four Voltaic Keys.  That was interesting, but was ultimately less resilient than the RG version listed above and less broken any of the RGB versions that use the best of three (or four) colors of cards.

[Ozymandias]

Went 3-0-2 with this and then lost in the quarters at Knight Ware today.

4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker
1x Timetwister

4x Goblin Welder
4x Guttural Response
4x Manamorphose

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Tinder Wall
4x Chrome Mox
4x Grim Monolith
1x Channel
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring

Sideboard
4x Seething Song
4x Tormod’s Crypt
4x Storm Entity
3x Nature's Claim


R1 vs. Kevin Long playing TPS.
G1: I mull to 6, he mulls to 5. I only have three mana in hand, so I end up going to 8 cards, pitching belcher, and Welding belcher in. I see Usea, Sol Ring, Mox Ruby, and Duress from him.
SB: -2 Grim Monolith +2 Nature's claim. I plan to stay flexible, and who knows what he could pull
G2: He is on the play and forces my t1 belcher. I misplay by prematurely blowing two rites and a tinder wall when I have sufficient artifact mana, and watch helplessly as my Goblin Welder comes off the top of my deck, uncastable. He gifts, ancestrals, etc and eventually storms me out.
SB -2 Nature's claim +2 Seething Song. Might as well race, and I don't want to run monolith into monolith into not ETW.
G3: he mulls to 6, I channel into Belcher and win on t1. He shows me Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth afterwards, meaning that I was lost if I went for ETW or belcher+pass.

R2 vs. John Harduvel playing Trygon Tezzless Tez.
G1: He starts off pretty strong, running out a Time Walk into a Trygon predator against a blind opponent. I mull to 6, and stare at Chrome Mox, ETW, ETW, Welder, ESG, ESG, Lotus Petal after drawing. I pass. He swings for two and passes back. I topdeck Rite of flame, and go Mox, imprint ETW, Rite, remove ESG, remove ESG, petal, welder, ETW. He spell pierces a copy. My 9 1/1 goblins outrace a Jace and a second predator, though he failed to stave off death by jacing a token back to my hand. I cut two monoliths for 2 claims, again wanting to remain flexible.

G2: He leads off with Needle on Belcher. I run Mox Ruby into Rite of Flame (forced) into Mox Pearl into Chrome Mox imprinting Tinder Wall, into Mana Vault into Manamorphose for UR (I had twister as card 7) but topdeck an Empty into 14 tokens which provokes a draw step and a scoop.

R3 vs. Chad Johnson with ANT.

G1: I mull to 5 but manage to wheel of fortune into 4 artifact mana and belcher. His random seven has sea, thoughtseize, chain of vapor, and mox sapphire. I begin to wish I had cast ETW on the turn before, despite being a full turn slower. He thoughtseizes away my other gas, and hardcast ESG does not win the race vs. topdecking ANT.
SB: -4 Guttural Response -4 Goblin Welder +4 Storm Entity +4 Seething Song. My rationale here is that I am on the plat and Entity actually keeps him from ANTing well at all if it gets down t1 and bashes, especially compared to welder or in multiples. Anyway, I keep a 7 mana+Jar hand and draw into 5+belcher for the t1.
SB -4 Storm Entity +4 Guttural response. I might as well try to defend versus Chain of Vapor, Ancestral, and Brainstorm, right? He mulls to 5, and seizes me. I show him petal, chrome mox, sol ring, ETW, Grim Monolith. ETW, and Twister. He takes Twister (!) (Mox is better) I rip a manamorphose and make 14 goblin tokens. He can Ad Nauseam turn 3, but he does it from six and dies after hitting Nauseam.

R4, RS- IDs. I draw R4, but play for fun and lose vs oath. G1 he forces two mana chains, and though I get belcher down, he assembles vault-key before I can do anything. G2 I make 14 goblins. g3 he seizes the charbelcher in my hand and none of my draw steps find the artifact I need for Tinker. I think I cut two monolith for 2 nature's claims.

t8 vs. MUD. G1 I cast a t1 belcher with a pearl on the table, but I fail to topdeck mana and die horribly.
SB: -4 Guttural Response, -4 Manamorphose +4 Seething Song +4 Storm entity.
g2 I mull to oblivion, after sending back a seven-carder that had either six tokens or a 3/3 storm entity.

Fun deck, lucky day in general. I wonder whether or not Windfall is worth it, or if not, a Living Wish sideboard. This deck is a lot stronger than it looks. Also thanks to Lochinvar81 for the great list and deck help via PM.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Ozy, thanks for the report!  Looks like you had a good day and played the deck well (except for some of the mistakes you pointed out yourself).  I probably would have played the 6 goblin tokens against MUD in your last game.  Unless they bring in something to blow up tokens (Keg or similar) or have a killer hand, I think you can race them.  That also gives you a good opportunity to drop a 2/2 or 3/3 Storm Entity later.

[meadbert]

Actually that  is stopped by Lodestone Golem or (Mishra's Factor + Mox) or Metalworker.

Basically if they can block and kill a token each turn then you swing for 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 which is a total of 15. 
It can buy you a lot of time though since Smokestack is neutered and you can defend from aggro so keeping that hand might have been the better strategy.

[Ozymandias]

Well, I could have cast Storm entity on 1(!) turn two and raced a single dude. the last card was a basically dead TimeTwister; I think that if I board out manamoprhose I should board out Timetwister and Tinker.

[Dark4Ever]

Has anyone tried Goblin Strike? I've seen it in Legacy Belcher builds. Admittedly it was in decks running 4 Burning Wish and the Strike was in the sideboard with some copies main deck. Perhaps as a one off for surprise oops I win value?

[Doomsday]

Yeah I like Goblin War Strike sideboard in the Legacy build, but not in Vintage without 4 Burning Wish and I wouldn't want to waste maindeck slots on it.

[Ozymandias]

So I've been thinking about Mox Opal, and what it could replace.  With 19 mana artifacts in the deck besides potential Opals, I think you could definitely find room for two or three (though this is a card that you never want to draw two of. It will certainly make casting blue bombs easier. Swapping 1 for one Chrome Mox seems like a good idea, because 1x Opal 1x Chrome seems a lot better than 2x of either. The question is: what mana leaves for the second opal? I'm leaning towards Manamorphose, but I'm open to suggestions.

The deck actually has 25 artifacts as it stands
4 Goblin Charbelcher (can topdeck into)
1 Memory Jar (probably not)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Grim Monolith
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring

[Doomsday]

Are you playing the list you posted above?  Do you like Guttural Response better than Welders, even with the Grim Monoliths?

[GrandpaBelcher]

I posted my reply here:  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41322.new#new  I think Mox Opal changes everything.  I haven't tested much with an RG list similar to the one Ozy played with above, but I'm sure Opal will be in that now as well as a four-of.  It's just too good.

Also, I moved it to the Ritual Combo section, because why should we be relegated to Miscellaneous?