[Premium Article] Insider Trading - Are Proxies Hurting Vintage Tournament Atten

[reaperbong]

The price of Power 9/ Semi-Power is not that bad. Europe seems to be doing fine, I see insane Power cards in most decks at local tournaments here in Prague and we are even one of the few scenes allowing up to 15 proxies (at an extra cost of $1.50 a piece).

There are plenty of other hobbies that cost just as much. Hell I spend more money on Snowboarding gear anyday. My new board costed an Ancestral Recall, then the bindings + boots was another Mox I could have had...

I don't see what the big deal is and dare I say it appears to me that people are just too lazy to invest. Once you get the power cards then that's it, you can translate them into most any deck. Also they retain their value for the most part so you can invest the cash knowing full well if it's not for you then you can just sell them. The more that proxies are accepted then the price will go down as more people will sell their Power, which in turn makes the whole thing a more dodgy investment.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's a snowball effect that needs to be turned around quick in the US, you guys are on a slippery slope.

I played MTG since Legends and quit at Alliances. 2 years ago my father sent me all my old cards from overseas and upon discovering a fantastic Gameshop with a Vintage scene in Prague I got into it again. I started out with a playset of RV-UL Underground Seas and two very beat up Beta Moxes. All it took me was about a year of trading online and selling old useless jank and other crap from around the house on ebay and now i have a full set of beautiful P9 + other neccessary goodies like 4x Mana Drain. I traded a very beat up Mox Emerald Beta + UL Timetwister + Beta Chaos Orb for a perfectly Excellent UL Black Lotus for example! No cash invested, just a lot of trading.

All it took was the motivation and desire to acquire these cards and I made it happen. All of you proxy advocates out there could do it too if you really tried and had some patience. You need to get out of that instant gratification mentality.

Let's remember that collectability is and has always been a major part of Magic, by allowing proxies it is my belief that you are killing a fundamental part of the game and altering aspects that were never intended to be changed. With tools like Ebay and trading forums like MOTL out there I don't really see a viable excuse. Let's be real here, you can still win without a Black Lotus or Ancestral Recall and because the odds are more against you then your victory should be more sweet. Take some pride in that.

Anytime people get used to instant gratification there will be an overall decline in quality. Just give it some time, damn, have some patience and keep trading up. Until then it's not going to kill anyone to work on some budget stuff.

[Diakonov]

The price of Power 9/ Semi-Power is not that bad. Europe seems to be doing fine, I see insane Power cards in most decks at local tournaments here in Prague and we are even one of the few scenes allowing up to 15 proxies (at an extra cost of $1.50 a piece).

There are plenty of other hobbies that cost just as much. Hell I spend more money on Snowboarding gear anyday. My new board costed an Ancestral Recall, then the bindings + boots was another Mox I could have had...

I don't see what the big deal is and dare I say it appears to me that people are just too lazy to invest. Once you get the power cards then that's it, you can translate them into most any deck. Also they retain their value for the most part so you can invest the cash knowing full well if it's not for you then you can just sell them. The more that proxies are accepted then the price will go down as more people will sell their Power, which in turn makes the whole thing a more dodgy investment.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's a snowball effect that needs to be turned around quick in the US, you guys are on a slippery slope.

I played MTG since Legends and quit at Alliances. 2 years ago my father sent me all my old cards from overseas and upon discovering a fantastic Gameshop with a Vintage scene in Prague I got into it again. I started out with a playset of RV-UL Underground Seas and two very beat up Beta Moxes. All it took me was about a year of trading online and selling old useless jank and other crap from around the house on ebay and now i have a full set of beautiful P9 + other neccessary goodies like 4x Mana Drain. I traded a very beat up Mox Emerald Beta + UL Timetwister + Beta Chaos Orb for a perfectly Excellent UL Black Lotus for example! No cash invested, just a lot of trading.

All it took was the motivation and desire to acquire these cards and I made it happen. All of you proxy advocates out there could do it too if you really tried and had some patience. You need to get out of that instant gratification mentality.

Let's remember that collectability is and has always been a major part of Magic, by allowing proxies it is my belief that you are killing a fundamental part of the game and altering aspects that were never intended to be changed. With tools like Ebay and trading forums like MOTL out there I don't really see a viable excuse. Let's be real here, you can still win without a Black Lotus or Ancestral Recall and because the odds are more against you then your victory should be more sweet. Take some pride in that.

Anytime people get used to instant gratification there will be an overall decline in quality. Just give it some time, damn, have some patience and keep trading up. Until then it's not going to kill anyone to work on some budget stuff.

This is not a very convincing argument.  I can hardly pay my rent!  Comparing Magic to another very expensive sport is not going to motivate anyone.

Plus, as people have mentioned before, there are a limited number of power pieces.  You can't think it reasonable for everyone to "get off their ass" and spend $3000 on power; if this were to start happening, it would quickly become astronomically more expensive to do so as availability decreased.

As far as the degree to which Magic is collectible, Standard and Limited players ship their cards as soon as they cycle out.  The Eternal formats, specifically, have a certain tendency toward collection.  If you read my previous post I explain that this is a part of Vintage, but you can't discount the players who have little interest in collecting.

[reaperbong]

I realize it may not be a good selling point for the format, but tough. I can't play with a proxy snowboard, only a crap snowboard if that's all i can afford. It's my position that if you can't afford it, you need not play with it. Most all decks are still functional without Power, they just a little slower. Can't afford a Lotus then play a Lotus Petal or LED. Such is life. No Moxen can simply mean Chrome Mox autoincludes or 4 Null Rods.

Also for the record, thus far I've attended less then half of the Vintage tournaments within easy driving distance from me. Most that I've avoided are Tournaments with Proxies, although I've played in two just to play. I was not impressed and will continue to avoid. Does anyone else not see it as unfair that you can spend at least 700 USD for a card but then get absolutely no advantages over everyone else using proxies? It makes no sense, it's like making a genuine Lotus practically worthless in the strategic sense, as far as playing the game is concerned. At the least that is just no befitting with the spirit of the game.

And another thing, the perception of Vintage needs to change from being the redheaded stepchild of formats to the true format for the most elite, obsessed and professional. Let me know where to sign up for the proxy banning movement because i truly believe that's the only way to start.

[bluemage55]

Europe seems to be doing fine, I see insane Power cards in most decks at local tournaments here in Prague and we are even one of the few scenes allowing up to 15 proxies (at an extra cost of $1.50 a piece).

It just occurred to me that this could be a reasonable intermediate solution.  If you charge players for every proxy they use, then the incentive to acquire power will remain (as it will be cheaper in the long run), but the format would still be reasonably accessible to newer players (especially since they would be playing fewer tournaments).

If paying $2 per proxy became the norm for Vintage tournaments, you wouldn't even need a proxy cap (since no one wants to be paying +$40 for 20 proxies every time they play).  This simultaneously creates a demand for power (which pay for themselves in the long run) and allows Vintage to remain accessible to new blood.

[LordHomerCat]

Europe seems to be doing fine, I see insane Power cards in most decks at local tournaments here in Prague and we are even one of the few scenes allowing up to 15 proxies (at an extra cost of $1.50 a piece).

It just occurred to me that this could be a reasonable intermediate solution.  If you charge players for every proxy they use, then the incentive to acquire power will remain (as it will be cheaper in the long run), but the format would still be reasonably accessible to newer players (especially since they would be playing fewer tournaments).

If paying $2 per proxy became the norm for Vintage tournaments, you wouldn't even need a proxy cap (since no one wants to be paying +$40 for 20 proxies every time they play).  This simultaneously creates a demand for power (which pay for themselves in the long run) and allows Vintage to remain accessible to new blood.

How is that accessible?  If I've never played Vintage before, I am hardly going to spend like $60 on entry fee plus proxies just to attend some tournament in a format I don't know anything about.  You're not gonna get new players if they are paying double the entry fee or more just to try it out.

[MadisonRyan]

I am new to the forums and relatively new to vintage.  I think there are two big barriers to the vintage format.  The first is cost, which has been thoroughly discussed.  One that hasn't been discussed much in this thread (if at all) is what I will call the myth of vintage.

I have a friend who loves vintage.  When I started playing Magic again (after a several year hiatus), he would tell me about vintage decks, how they worked, and how great it would be if we tried to assemble some vintage decks and play in some tournaments.  I immediately dismissed him, not because of cost, but because of myth.  The myth around vintage is that it's a turn 1 win every time and that even if you get a good draw, you can't win against a player with a super combo deck.

My friend started sending me articles (all SCG articles by Stephen Menendian), and slowly my impression of the format changed.  Sure, I saw the power decks with thousands of dollars worth of cards, but I also saw cards that I used to play with and cards that I still owned.  I read tournament recaps and saw that not only did most vintage games last several turns, they could last just as long and longer than some standard/extended games.  My interest in the format grew to the point now that I am out on ebay buying up any cheap auctions involving vintage staples so that I can slowly assemble a vintage arsenal to play with and play test against.

I believe that cost is the biggest inhibitor to the format, but what I call myth plays a big role too.  I never would have taken an interest in the format had I not discovered that it wasn't a format of turn one scoops.  I think if you ask a lot of casual players, or even your typical FNM player, they believe a lot of these myths about vintage and that holds back their interest in the format and denies the format a small but steady flow of new players.

So how does my post relate to the topic of proxies in vintage?  Well, using myself as an example, the myth and stigma of vintage is what kept my interest down, not the cost.  Being allowed to play with 10-proxy vintage decks gets me into the vintage game sooner, but it wouldn't have kept me out of the vintage scene altogether.  If no proxies were allowed, it just means that I would take longer to save money to gather the cards I need.  I have to believe there are others out there like me as well.

My final thought is that what if Wizards sanctioned vintage events with proxies, and players are limited to how many vintage events they can play with proxies?  Say you can play with proxies in a sanctioned vintage event 3 times per year (excluding a big event like the world championships).  This would allow those who want to dabble into the format to proxy, but they couldn't play in every sanctioned event.  Those with power can play in all events, adding (or at least maintaining) value to power.  Would this be a feasible idea or would it be a maintenance nightmare for Wizards and tournament organizers to keep track of?  Or is it just a bad idea altogether?

[TheShop]

I read some of these posts and I would like to input about backwater vintage.  I live in Mississippi-the hands-down backwater of vintage....I can count on one hand the total of all players interested in the format.  It is the only format I play.  I read the articles, all the tourney reports, and have collected vintage staples over my 10 year magic career.  I am working on the power, even though we have no tournament or teams of any kind.  The only tournament we get is 2 hours from me and usually only has 10 people at it.  It only meets for 3 months or so and then attendance drops below 8 and it dies for months.  It is a no-proxy environment.  I think that the "to proxy or not" assertion should be met on an area by area basis.  Me playing with my few pieces of power and vintage staples is completely unreal compared to those I play against.  Also, interest would be stimulated with proxies...leading to larger prize packages and greater interest in vintage.  However, in the northeast united states...you guys may need to change(I am not qualified to make this decision for you).  I would give anything to be in an area where I could play proxy tournaments shuffle up against the big names in American vintage.  However, I would give up proxies to preserve the format.

[reaperbong]

If we must suffer proxies then no more then 4 Proxies allowed should be the absolute cut-off. This allows even beginner players to easily assemble Shops or Ichorid decks. Combo players and anyone else will still have access to a Lotus, Ancestral, Sapphire and Time Walk. If you need more then 4 proxies IMO then you're just being cheap. Am i right or wrong? I highly doubt there's a reasonable argument for more then 4 proxies out there.

Also i would very much like to see a ban on hand made proxies. I think all these regulations and how-to's on making proxies is ridiculous. No kind of self-made proxy with handwriting should be allowed, only photocopies of the actual card. Regulations should require anyone using proxies to download a color copy from Magiccards.info, print, cut out and slip the piece of paper over a normal card in a sleeve. To say that people can cheat because there is the extra width of a piece of paper is silly. Even if it happens so what? Does the entire population of Vintage players and the integrity of the game as a whole have to suffer because a few people might cheat? I'd trade the possibility of people cheating on me all day over having to play against scribbled basic lands that are supposed to be Power 9.

[Diakonov]

I am new to the forums and relatively new to vintage.  I think there are two big barriers to the vintage format.  The first is cost, which has been thoroughly discussed.  One that hasn't been discussed much in this thread (if at all) is what I will call the myth of vintage.

I have a friend who loves vintage.  When I started playing Magic again (after a several year hiatus), he would tell me about vintage decks, how they worked, and how great it would be if we tried to assemble some vintage decks and play in some tournaments.  I immediately dismissed him, not because of cost, but because of myth.  The myth around vintage is that it's a turn 1 win every time and that even if you get a good draw, you can't win against a player with a super combo deck.

My friend started sending me articles (all SCG articles by Stephen Menendian), and slowly my impression of the format changed.  Sure, I saw the power decks with thousands of dollars worth of cards, but I also saw cards that I used to play with and cards that I still owned.  I read tournament recaps and saw that not only did most vintage games last several turns, they could last just as long and longer than some standard/extended games.  My interest in the format grew to the point now that I am out on ebay buying up any cheap auctions involving vintage staples so that I can slowly assemble a vintage arsenal to play with and play test against.

I believe that cost is the biggest inhibitor to the format, but what I call myth plays a big role too.  I never would have taken an interest in the format had I not discovered that it wasn't a format of turn one scoops.  I think if you ask a lot of casual players, or even your typical FNM player, they believe a lot of these myths about vintage and that holds back their interest in the format and denies the format a small but steady flow of new players.

So how does my post relate to the topic of proxies in vintage?  Well, using myself as an example, the myth and stigma of vintage is what kept my interest down, not the cost.  Being allowed to play with 10-proxy vintage decks gets me into the vintage game sooner, but it wouldn't have kept me out of the vintage scene altogether.  If no proxies were allowed, it just means that I would take longer to save money to gather the cards I need.  I have to believe there are others out there like me as well.

My final thought is that what if Wizards sanctioned vintage events with proxies, and players are limited to how many vintage events they can play with proxies?  Say you can play with proxies in a sanctioned vintage event 3 times per year (excluding a big event like the world championships).  This would allow those who want to dabble into the format to proxy, but they couldn't play in every sanctioned event.  Those with power can play in all events, adding (or at least maintaining) value to power.  Would this be a feasible idea or would it be a maintenance nightmare for Wizards and tournament organizers to keep track of?  Or is it just a bad idea altogether?

First off, welcome to TMD, and an excellent first post!  I think you may be spot on about the "Vintage Myth."

This is certainly a concept that circulates in other formats of Magic.  Also, due to the more complex nature of chaining spells together in Vintage, the style of play itself can be very intimidating to people who are new to Magic in general.

As far as the sanctioned proxy events go, I don't think your idea is bad, but I do think that counting on the DCI to actually implement it is unrealistic.  I just don't think that the DCI will ever condone proxying as a sanction-able concept, since they want to promote the purchase of real cards.

[God_Campbell]

Also i would very much like to see a ban on hand made proxies. I think all these regulations and how-to's on making proxies is ridiculous. No kind of self-made proxy with handwriting should be allowed, only photocopies of the actual card. Regulations should require anyone using proxies to download a color copy from Magiccards.info, print, cut out and slip the piece of paper over a normal card in a sleeve. To say that people can cheat because there is the extra width of a piece of paper is silly. Even if it happens so what? Does the entire population of Vintage players and the integrity of the game as a whole have to suffer because a few people might cheat? I'd trade the possibility of people cheating on me all day over having to play against scribbled basic lands that are supposed to be Power 9.

I have to disagree with this, I would hate to be playing against a player that uses a paper slip proxy to cheat, either by changing out the piece of paper for what he needs, or worse yet, feeling the difference in the sleeve, while it is not a MAJOR concern, it is still a concern myself and the majority of players feel is a concern non the less. I do appropriate a well made "hand-drawn" proxie, if it includes an attempt at similar art, but a plains with Black Lotus on it will suffice if I have issues with what a proxy is, I will ask simple as that.

Also I feel that if your going to go proxies, it is the best to offer 5 proxies free, and up to an additional 5 at $1.00 each, this allows you to compete at a slight increase if you were short on finding a few cards and want to play optimally. Just think of it this way, if 10 people pay $5.00 each to have additional proxies, that is extra prize money that can be used to help fund the prize pool, be it prizes for the top 8, or strengthening the 3-4th payout.

[reaperbong]

My family and I play at home all the time using proxies that are printed and glued to cards inside a sleeve. It has no different feel then a foil, or any difference there may be is extremely slight and negligible. Also we allow these types of proxies in tournaments where i play, it's no problem or concern over cheating, and it's very nice to see people take pride in realistic looking proxies.

If you can honestly say that you can feel a difference and can cheat then you need to take the position to ban foils. The whole thing about cheating though is stupid if you ask me, you sound paranoid. Why does the whole game have to suffer because people like you are so afraid of cheating? If you're that concerned observe your opponent more closely and if you have reason to believe he's cheating then call him out on it and bring over a judge. If you do catch him cheating then free win for you.

[Legendre]

At my local tournaments printout slips are allowed only if the entire deck uses them(or has slips behind the card to equalize thickness).  But even this, I feel, leaves open avenues for cheating.  I don't think it is a sign of "paranoia" to be concerned over the potential for cheating lent by paper slip proxies.  And if you think that the actual probability of a vintage player doing this is rather low, I am inclined to agree, nonetheless the principle of the thing must have some consideration as well.  In a format where we allow people to play decks which have the potential for foul play, it only takes one greedy little bastard in a room full of gentlemen to spoil the whole thing.  Why take the chance?

it's very nice to see people take pride in realistic looking proxies.

What about a piece of printer paper is there to take pride in?  I think that artistically hand draw proxies are far more enviable, ones where the maker removes the original paint and interprets the original art, with or without text depending on the card being proxied.  By comparison little paper slips look rushed and trashy.  Sorry this is off topic, and a matter of opinion as well, but I think it's worth saying.

[Purple Hat]

I think a rule that says you can proxy 10 cards but you can only proxy cards with a value over $75 or something would be reasonable.  Stores would still sell singles because most cards aren't worth that much, but it would allow new players to proxy power, workshops, bazaars, drains, Library and timevault, which is about what they were intended for.  Allowing me or steve to proxy Tezzeret and tarmogoyf so that we never have to buy a $20-25 standard card is silly.  The whole idea behind proxies was to allow transition of newer players into older formats, not to let older players abuse newer cards for free.

[Smmenen]

And we all know that unpowered decks will never be competitive.  Please.  Seriously.  Show me a Vintage Worlds top 8 with an unpowered deck in the top 8.  Were there any?  Did any win in the last 5 years?  Of course not.  You're bringing a knife to a gunfight.  I'm thrilled that there are options for unpowered players in santioned metagames, but seriously, you pretty much cannot win power with an unpowered deck.  There's a reason Vintage exploded in popularity when proxies were introduced, and that's because players were happy to finally be able to play something other than Goblins, Ankh-Sligh, Sui Black, Fish, or R/G beats.

I think this is a very a-historical, somewhat narrow-minded view of Vintage.

First and foremost, UR Fish exploded on the scene in 2003 and 2004 at a time when Marc Perez was cleaning up tournament after tournament of Mana Drain pilots.

UR Fish was the best performing deck in Vintage for a huge stretch, not even close.  He won the predecessor tournament to the SCG series in DC, then the Beta version of the same (the Central Cost Championship) with the same deck, beating loads of Drain and Workshop decks in the process (me in top 8 actually).   Then, at the first SCG tournament, Fish was by far the best performing deck, placing three copies in the top 6, including Marc.   The next SCG tournament was won by Oath.  No big surprise there. 

There have been clear times in Vintage history where non-powered decks, or at least limited power decks, have been at the very pinnacle of hte metagame.   Ichorid is just one example.   It's not bringing a knife to a gun fight.  It's bringing a carefully precise, but more deadly weapon, to battle.    I believe that my RG beatz deck is such a deck.   It locks up the board with Magus, Chalice and Rods, and uses Seal of Primoridum to trump our current addiction to artifacts (time Vault/Painter) and enchantments (Oath).  It uses Stingscourger and Goyf as cleanup, and Spirit Guides to power things out, and it's entirely unpowered.  I would feel totally comfortable playing it in a major tournament.   

My view of Ben's article is not that we should eliminate proxies, but that there are serious unintended consequences that flow from the use of proxies that we did not anticipate when we first started advocating their usage.

I think we should move to 5 proxies as the standard (pairing it with other mechanisms), not eliminate proxies altogether.  That would address the claims Ben raised. 

[The Atog Lord]

I think a rule that says you can proxy 10 cards but you can only proxy cards with a value over $75 or something would be reasonable.

A rule like this would lead to a complete and utter mess of deckbuilding. It will introduce problems both in terms of fairness and in terms of enforcement.

If I have power, why should someone get to proxy a card that I own -- a Mox Jet -- while I can't proxy a card that someone else owns like Pithing Needle? That punishes me for owning power, in a way that just allowing proxies does not.

More importantly, who is to determine the value? What is and is not above the $75 may be clear in some cases, but muddy in others. And then, can I proxy a Goblin Welder by saying that I'm proxying a Japanese Foil Goblin Welder? The entire thing will lead to terrible conflict. I'd much rather trim back the number of proxies allowed, if anything.

[Purple Hat]

I think a rule that says you can proxy 10 cards but you can only proxy cards with a value over $75 or something would be reasonable.

A rule like this would lead to a complete and utter mess of deckbuilding. It will introduce problems both in terms of fairness and in terms of enforcement.

If I have power, why should someone get to proxy a card that I own -- a Mox Jet -- while I can't proxy a card that someone else owns like Pithing Needle? That punishes me for owning power, in a way that just allowing proxies does not.

More importantly, who is to determine the value? What is and is not above the $75 may be clear in some cases, but muddy in others. And then, can I proxy a Goblin Welder by saying that I'm proxying a Japanese Foil Goblin Welder? The entire thing will lead to terrible conflict. I'd much rather trim back the number of proxies allowed, if anything.

rich,
While the foil japanese goblin welder argument is obviously an extreme position.  The spirit of what I meant was clear, and I don't think a rule saying "players may proxy power 9, workshop, Bazaar, mana drain, Grim tutor, imperial seal and Library of Alexandria" is out of line, which was my point.  Me playing with proxy thoughtcasts cus I forgot mine at home or proxy quirion dryads (I actually did this once) because the store was out of them and I had free proxy slots is silly.

Setting aside that argument, I'm not against "punishing" people who own power throught the use of proxies by forcing them to buy the same cards as other players have to buy.  Currently we're "punishing" dealers who hold vintage tournaments by allowing me to proxy things like ponder, or better yet, Tezz or even Goyf.  If dealers don't get to sell singles they won't hold tournaments.  Anything that encourages spending on singles is good for dealers, which in turn drives tournaments, which drives participation.

[bluemage55]

How is that accessible?  If I've never played Vintage before, I am hardly going to spend like $60 on entry fee plus proxies just to attend some tournament in a format I don't know anything about.  You're not gonna get new players if they are paying double the entry fee or more just to try it out.

My point is that people wouldn't need that many proxies.  If people can come up with viable decks with 10 proxies, then they can easily put together anything with a little more than that.  And for anyone who just wants to play powered Fish, it still only costs +$8 for Blotus, 2 Moxen, and Ancestral.

As an intermediate solution, it's certainly more accessible than 0 proxy vintage.  Players with power get to enjoy an increase in the value of their cards, and players without power aren't completely screwed over.

[policehq]

If I have power, why should someone get to proxy a card that I own -- a Mox Jet -- while I can't proxy a card that someone else owns like Pithing Needle? That punishes me for owning power, in a way that just allowing proxies does not.

Aren't power owners concerned with the state of the format? Are you worried more for fairness and a few mid-range cards, or the health of Vintage? That's an immature response to a potentially serious problem.

[bluemage55]

Aren't power owners concerned with the state of the format? Are you worried more for fairness and a few mid-range cards, or the health of Vintage? That's an immature response to a potentially serious problem.

I believe his response was rhetorical.  He's pointing out that as things stand, there's no rational reason to own power (and it costs significantly to do so).

[LotusHead]

I think a rule that says you can proxy 10 cards but you can only proxy cards with a value over $75 or something would be reasonable.

A rule like this would lead to a complete and utter mess of deckbuilding. It will introduce problems both in terms of fairness and in terms of enforcement
If I have power, why should someone get to proxy a card that I own -- a Mox Jet -- while I can't proxy a card that someone else owns like Pithing Needle? That punishes me for owning power, in a way that just allowing proxies does not.

I'm guessing that the thread's intent was if Proxies hurt Vintage now or in long run, not the minutiae of what is/should be proxiable.

On the assumption that proxies are the norm, a certain amount of players "have the cards, and power", but might need to proxy something within their proxy limit, to make use of their deckbuilding/playing skills/metagaming. (seeds of innosence was brought up once a long time ago in a metagame far far away, Pithing Needle was my first expericence with a powered player proxying a $10 card which was new at the time, and modernly, say, Oath proxying that awesome Hellkite dragon guy).

If said proxies are within limits, the price shouldn't be an issue. 

Slamming proxying a "Ponder" is a non-issue as ponder is REALLY really common, and current and availiable.

On the assumption that proxies AREN'T the norm (Europe), I am in awe that such a scene thrives.  I can't give an explanation for why it does other than "things are different in other places"

Wizards will never allow proxies unless they decide to accept that Vintage Players are NOT their income source, but will at least let us have our fun.  THis may happen 5 years from now, but for now Vintage is owned by Vintage community, serviced only by quarterly input by DCI (and often their input is No Changes)

[Marske]

On the assumption that proxies AREN'T the norm (Europe), I am in awe that such a scene thrives.  I can't give an explanation for why it does other than "things are different in other places"

As a European TO and player I just wanted to chime in on this thread, especially in the Netherlands (my home country) we have seen the rise of proxie events that get well over 40+ people each time. So one can hardly say proxies are hurting the format that much in Europe at least. Also we have some really big sanctioned events (Bazaar of Moxen, Eurovino, etc) which also thrive and get huge numbers of players from all over Europe and even the States. Now why do these proxie events and the real big sanctioned ones thrive ?

First off all lets take a look at the events I organize (together with some people of my team). those are 10 proxie, Power for First, Semi power for Second and staple playsets for the rest of the top 8 guaranteed regardlless of attendance events.

We've gotten numbers close to 60 people attending with a very diverse metagame going on as you can see in some of our tournament breakdowns (look for them in the tournament section not that hard to find) well this actually doesn't explain WHY we get those numbers... let me try and give you guys my view as to why...

Like I said in the this thread:  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36896.msg513959#msg513959

I think there are some reasons why events “fail” or don't get large numbers like they used to. It has nothing to do with proxies whats so ever. True playing without proxies rewards players for having taken the effort to collect or pay for cards. But would you really like playing in a metagame that has 40 Black Sui / Goblins / Fish decks because people just don't have power / semi power ?

Now lets take a look at the some of the reasons I mentions in the post and why I think some tournaments fail to get huge crowds:

Good prices guaranteed (sure people care about the chance of winning a mox or winning some crappy boosters the mox will get more people period)

I see many events going something like this in the states: Nice set of staples (altered or foil or not) or maybe some power / semi power and store credit for the rest of the people.
Now why would I want to drive 2 hours for storecredit which I probably won't be able to spend if I win it ? Or what if you drive for 2 hours and you get based on attendance prizes and it's something like “ah man sorry there is only 10 people so you'll have to make due with this nice set of FoW's instead of the Mox/ Drain” I know I won't be attending that event anytime soon.

Sure I see some great TO's doing stuff (ELD for example) but there also are a lot of stores / tournaments that work different. Is having less events with better prizes a bad thing ? I know from experience that guaranteeing prizes can lead to loss of money by the TO, but if you're doing this to make a buck then you should host Standard / Extended events which will guarantee a huge turnout if you make the prices worth while. Vintage is a hobby and every TO should be doing this with the “doing something for the community so the community will give back to me” idea in mind. If you do this the community WILL give something back (attendance) and the money will also come.

Location !! Remember that awesome tournament smack in the middle of friggin nowhere ? I don't either because nobody came... Be within walking distance or at least within a reasonable cab drive of a Train / Bus station and if your real big an Airport

Doing a event within a “vintage scenes” range. If there is no vintage in your local store / area but there are magic players... invest some time and talk to them about vintage, introduce them, let them know why you like this format so much, organize an unlimited proxie event on a Friday night or something so that they can get a feel for the format.

Lots of players play other formats too, next time when you're at a FNM boast about vintage, why it's cool, why you play it, and why they should play it too... I've introduced about 4 new people this way to vintage who have become tournament regulars now... you can make a difference... if you know there is going to be an event this weekend ask them to join you.

Should there be a list of cards you can proxie so people won't proxie a ponder ? I guess not, why should a player who has all the power but wants to try out a new idea need to buy all the new cards just so he can toy with it and lose money in the process ? There's no Pro Tour, no Grand Prix... There's nothing on the line in vintage except the right to boast your skills and some cash / cards. So why not let people try and build "the best deck" they possibly can ? Above all other things Vintage is or should be a format for fun, skill, and the most broken plays imaginable.  Sure I'm with the whole 10 proxie limit but what cards to proxie shouldn't be a thing that the Community or TO's decide.

Just my two cents... Vintage doesn't need saving... Vintage needs players who actively recruit new members and put time into getting people introduced into the best format in magic...

Sorry if this is getting into an off-topic rant but I'm getting a bit tired of all these people saying: "Vintage needs saving", "proxies are bad" stuff. Proxies are a good way of introducing new people into the format. If vintage needs saving... get of your butt and start doing something about it instead of just hoping attendance will magically go up or blame proxies. Get some of the local FNM crowd in on the action or whatever.

[BruiZar]

On the topic of price support, I wouldn't mind being able to win a set of bazaars, or a full set of mana drains, or cards like imperial seal, grim tutor and rolling earthquakes. Alot of events have decent price support (in the form of mox for winner, loa or drain for runner up, and random staples for the rest) but to be honest, most of the people that attend the tournament already have stuff like fows and duals and crap like that. I'd like to be able to win things that I wouldn't want to buy with my own money but would be very happy to have. How do you think a P3K-heavy price support work for a  tournament? You can keep the first place mox, but give the rest of the people cards that are harder to acquire.

[Marske]

@BruiZar
Sure this can be done but that would mean upping the entry fee.  Which obviously has it's own problems, the bigger the price support the harder it gets for TO's to not lose huge amounts of cash when attendance does turn out to be low. The reasons why events like Bazaar of Moxen give away the huge prices are the huge entry fee (which isn't that big if you really put it into perspective) and the fact that it's sanctioned (you can use real judges !) I'm not sure if doing this type of events is possible when allowing proxies (Creates the problem of judges needing to see if proxies are good etc)

Sorry for going off-topic.

[BruiZar]

@BruiZar
Sure this can be done but that would mean upping the entry fee.  Which obviously has it's own problems, the bigger the price support the harder it gets for TO's to not lose huge amounts of cash when attendance does turn out to be low.

Sorry for going off-topic.

How about number 2 to 5 winning the same card but in varying conditions? 5th place would get a massively beat up semi-power card (Drain?) and 2nd place would get a nm one. That way you can make it more attractive and achievable to obtain valuable cards without having to go bankrupt on organizing a tournament. I find it hard to drive 5 hours on a weekend day and sitting in a room full of people until the late hours. Also, I often get sick from malnutrition (Snickers, tosti's, 'kroketten', Coke) making me feel terrible the next day. Receiving an underground sea for ~14 hours of gaming (including transportation) plus an entrance fee plus consumptions plus new sleaves plus 30 euros worth of gasoline is just not worth it. You really have to make it attractive to come, if I can win duals I'm not missing out on anything cause I'm overpaying for something I can buy from ebay with a push of a button. (Please don't say that it is about fun because if that was true then turn out wouldn't depend as much on price support.)

Me and my brother went to a vintage tournament in october. He got sick from malnutrition (only junk food available) and slept 2 hours in the car during the tournament. He eventually became third winning a set of meddling mages, of which we have 12 now. I asked him to come to Almelo the 25th but he declined. It's going to cost him his entire day plus the next morning to recover, he has to pay atleast 40 euros just to get there and get inside, has to get up at like 7:30 on a weekend day.

Vintage people are usually older than players from other formats, and time isn't as readily available to most of us. Make it worth their while  and people will come

[BruiZar]

I'd be more than happy to come more often if the entrance fee was 15 or 20 euros and price support would just be better.

[Harlequin]

I think we should move to 5 proxies as the standard (pairing it with other mechanisms), not eliminate proxies altogether.  That would address the claims Ben raised. 

I agree that a 5 proxy standard would probably be best.

I here are 2 other mechanisms I would add:

- Proxies should be transferable.  Logistically, this would be tough to TO's to keep track of... I could think of a few ways to record keep this, probably the easiest of which is to just buy a big roll of those "keep this ticket" things (or print them out), and give 5 to each player when they pay for registration.  Then when they hand in their deck lists are collected, they hand in tickets for each proxy in thier deck. 

- "New Players" Should get 10 or 15 proxies.  What defines a 'new' player is again, tough, and could be tough to record keep. Again I can think of a few ways to do this.  One would be to say up to 3 months after your first tournement in this store.  Another would be to say, starting with 15, your proxy limit is lowered by 5 every time you make top-4 (until you are at 5).  Still another way would be to say if your lifetime TMD rating is less than some threshold. 

The intent here is to encourage current players to bring new players to the format. 

For the Transfer system:  The main idea here was to be able to "lend" power to another player without actually giving them your cards.  If I have my fully powered deck, and you have, let's say, 7 proxies.  Now If I want to help you out, I can just give you some of my proxies rather that worry about the logistics of lending you my Pearl and Emerald (Trust, wanting to leave early, etc). Now this adds even more incentive to own your full set of power.  If you do, when you go to the tournement the 5-proxies you are given are now worth something.  You can either give them away to earn brownie points with other members of the community, or you could even trade them for cards to total strangers (A little like tickets on MTGO).  Another interesting possiblity is lets consider a team of three budget players.  Rather than play 3 lower power sub-optimal 5-proxy decks, they could collectively decide to play 2 budget decks and 1 high-power deck (as a team). 

For the 15 proxy for new players: the hope would be to deminish that feeling of 'have' vrs 'have not.'  I think one of the biggest problem with tring to make a shift is that it will feel like what the USA did with Nukes.  Its like we (and a handful of other countries) made our Nukes, then said "OK, No more countries can make Nukes!"  I'm sure the majority of us players who won our power, did so on the backs of pushing our proxy limits... saying that future generations of players cannot do this seems underhanded - and in the long run will do more to create a rift between 'vintage players' and the rest of the magic community.

[Stormanimagus]

I think we should move to 5 proxies as the standard (pairing it with other mechanisms), not eliminate proxies altogether.  That would address the claims Ben raised. 

I agree that a 5 proxy standard would probably be best.

I here are 2 other mechanisms I would add:

- Proxies should be transferable.  Logistically, this would be tough to TO's to keep track of... I could think of a few ways to record keep this, probably the easiest of which is to just buy a big roll of those "keep this ticket" things (or print them out), and give 5 to each player when they pay for registration.  Then when they hand in their deck lists are collected, they hand in tickets for each proxy in thier deck. 

- "New Players" Should get 10 or 15 proxies.  What defines a 'new' player is again, tough, and could be tough to record keep. Again I can think of a few ways to do this.  One would be to say up to 3 months after your first tournement in this store.  Another would be to say, starting with 15, your proxy limit is lowered by 5 every time you make top-4 (until you are at 5).  Still another way would be to say if your lifetime TMD rating is less than some threshold. 

The intent here is to encourage current players to bring new players to the format. 

For the Transfer system:  The main idea here was to be able to "lend" power to another player without actually giving them your cards.  If I have my fully powered deck, and you have, let's say, 7 proxies.  Now If I want to help you out, I can just give you some of my proxies rather that worry about the logistics of lending you my Pearl and Emerald (Trust, wanting to leave early, etc). Now this adds even more incentive to own your full set of power.  If you do, when you go to the tournement the 5-proxies you are given are now worth something.  You can either give them away to earn brownie points with other members of the community, or you could even trade them for cards to total strangers (A little like tickets on MTGO).  Another interesting possiblity is lets consider a team of three budget players.  Rather than play 3 lower power sub-optimal 5-proxy decks, they could collectively decide to play 2 budget decks and 1 high-power deck (as a team). 

For the 15 proxy for new players: the hope would be to deminish that feeling of 'have' vrs 'have not.'  I think one of the biggest problem with tring to make a shift is that it will feel like what the USA did with Nukes.  Its like we (and a handful of other countries) made our Nukes, then said "OK, No more countries can make Nukes!"  I'm sure the majority of us players who won our power, did so on the backs of pushing our proxy limits... saying that future generations of players cannot do this seems underhanded - and in the long run will do more to create a rift between 'vintage players' and the rest of the magic community.

As always, you make some eloquent points Jeff. But I think Vintage's problem lies in a another place as well, and this I really don't have the time to change, unfortunately. Simply put, Vintage would definitely benefit from a small FNM scene. I've said this already, but let me outline the reasons why:

1) Smaller Entry fee. If the player pool was 8-20 people then the entry fee could be smaller and the prizes could be smaller.

2) Shorter time. I really liked what the guy a couple posts ago said. To me, a shorter tourny would be a nice refreshing change. I'd still get my dose of Vintage competition for the week, but only at the cost of 3-5 hours. If I wasn't doing well after round 2 I could drop and if I was doing well I'd have to stay to round 4 and then a semis and finals. This is HUGE. Trust me guys. More people play Extended and Standard, because there is easy access to FNM testing grounds for ALL players.

3) New players who wouldn't be intimidated by the competition right off the bat because the number per tourny would be lower and the entry fee would be lower.

Now doing this would either require:

a)sanctioning proxies

b)TO's willing to run unsanctioned events for FNM more often. I honestly don't see why this would be a problem and I've seen TO's do it before. It's really on them to allow such things at their stores. They could also do Vintage Saturdays or Sundays if they don't want to give up their Friday night slot (because they use it for draft or T2).

I'm telling you guys, it's the same psychology as poker. More people are interested in gambling with something they don't necessarily know on a small level. Once they get to know it then hopefully they start to like it and go to the bigger tournaments later.

[Nehptis]

To me the proxy aspect of this discussion comes down to asking ourselves what defines Competitive Vintage?  Is it;

A) Proxy Format - A format in which the outcomes of games are determined by Skill and Luck?  Accessibility to cards is not a factor.

or

B) Non-Proxy Format - A format in which the outcomes of games are determined by Skill, Luck and accessibility to cards.

I prefer A.

[arctic79]

Just a few observations to point out.

For the guys that are saying power is not that hard to buy, not all of us are born with a silver spoon in mouth and daddy isn't paying our way so we can dump disposable income on a few cards.  Reality says that most of us would rather spend $400+ on a variety of staples in the format instead of one card, because most of us have other financial commitments and need to make our dollars stretch.

Outside of Vintage champs, who cares about sanctioning, only the players that are concerned about bragging rights, which seems to be the players that own power already.

A long term solution for TO's trying to increase attendance could be progressive prize tournies, where you would start out with a tourney for say a playset of duals, then the next month a playset of Drains, and so on every month and in the last few tournies you put up a moxen or lotus.  This would encourage new players to come to more events and help increase their  playstock as the season progresses making them more competitive players.  The more people win the more they will return.

For other players trying to introduce new players, give them viable options that don't rely on expensive staples.  Tell them to play with their shock duals until they acquire real duals, there are a lot of options that players can use instead, but they may require a hand from experienced players on making those choices.  If you help these players become better, you also make them feel like a part of the community, which is important because no one wants to hang around a bunch of egotistical jerks.

I agree with Nephtis

To me the proxy aspect of this discussion comes down to asking ourselves what defines Competitive Vintage?  Is it;

A) Proxy Format - A format in which the outcomes of games are determined by Skill and Luck?  Accessibility to cards is not a factor.

or

B) Non-Proxy Format - A format in which the outcomes of games are determined by Skill, Luck and accessibility to cards.

I prefer A.

[Smmenen]

I think Nephtis has set up a false binary that really seems to elide the points made in this article.    The question isn't necessarily whether we should get rid of proxies, but whether proxies have hurt Vintage, and if so how?   Then the answer is not necessarily to do away with proxies, but restructuring them such that the harms are less manifest, while retaining as many of the advantages as possible.  I think most of the harms that Ben pointed out can be reduced or eliminated altogether by simply reducing the number of proxies to 5.