[Premium Article] Insider Trading - Are Proxies Hurting Vintage Tournament Atten

[Stormanimagus]

I think Nephtis has set up a false binary that really seems to elide the points made in this article.    The question isn't necessarily whether we should get rid of proxies, but whether proxies have hurt Vintage, and if so how?   Then the answer is not necessarily to do away with proxies, but restructuring them such that the harms are less manifest, while retaining as many of the advantages as possible.  I think most of the harms that Ben pointed out can be reduced or eliminated altogether by simply reducing the number of proxies to 5.   

I'm forced to agree with you Steve. 5 proxies makes the financial commitment to making a Vintage deck more realistic (though I'd be forced to not play my favorite deck until I acquired SOME power I'd be willing to make that sacrifice as I also like more roguish Fish archetypes and Landstill, and strange budget decks like Sui-Black).

5 proxies would allow the proxying of the unreasonably expensive cards:

Lotus, Ancestral, Mox Jet, Mox Sapphire and Time Walk (at least I think those are the most expensive).

Then you could play an optimal Fish deck no problem or an optimal "budget rogue deck" with some boost from power cards (Lotus is a good example here).

Stephen my main problem with this is you mentioned nothing about Sanctioning. THIS problem is very simple and boils down to this:

The Vintage community needs something like FNM to boost general interest and attendance

TO's who'd do FNM only like to do it for sanctioned formats (exactly WHY I don't understand)

Thus, Vintage needs to have this 5-proxy idea sanctioned in order for it to have the desired effect of popularizing Vintage more.

This is where Wizards and the DCI just don't seem willing to budge and it seems kinda silly to me that they won't. They're shooting themselves in the foot when they could easily make a change to the rules to allow for 5-proxy sanctioned events.

[Nehptis]

Steve and Storm are 100% correct in their main points.

1) I intentionally set up a binary question/answer to simplify this discussion.  It has become way too complex and random.  So, if we can begin to agree that Proxies are healthy for the format then we need to strategize on what Proxy system works best (e.g., # of Proxies).

2) Storm is correct in his point about sanctioning Vintage with Proxies.  I agree that for the format to grow it needs more Sanctioned events to be available as options for TOs to host (e.g., FNM type events)

In summary what Vintage needs is a Sanctioned Proxy format.  I said that like 50 posts ago.  But, maybe it's clearer now.

[Stormanimagus]

Steve and Storm are 100% correct in their main points.

1) I intentionally set up a binary question/answer to simplify this discussion.  It has become way too complex and random.  So, if we can begin to agree that Proxies are healthy for the format then we need to strategize on what Proxy system works best (e.g., # of Proxies).

2) Storm is correct in his point about sanctioning Vintage with Proxies.  I agree that for the format to grow it needs more Sanctioned events to be available as options for TOs to host (e.g., FNM type events)

In summary what Vintage needs is a Sanctioned Proxy format.  I said that like 50 posts ago.  But, maybe it's clearer now.

It was never unclear, and I'm glad you backed me up on this one. However, as long as there are members of the community who insist that it "will never happen" that sort of opinion will take hold and people will not try to push for it any more. To the poster who said that I pose this question: "how do you know for sure?"

I really think that if the Vintage community can come together on this then Wizards and the DCI could be convinced on a compromise like this 5-proxy sanctioning thing because it wouldn't destroy their business or the wallets of players who actually did invest in power. It's a sort of reasonable happy medium and In the long run it would, in fact, draw more people in to the game and make Wizards more money than if they just sit on their hands and do nothing.

Because Vintage is truly the format for the Magic Legends the promotional shot in the arm that magic could get from popularizing Vintage might actually be significant. I merely state this because I think Wizards needs to realize that there IS something potentially in it for them as well.

Peace,

     Noah

[policehq]

It was never unclear, and I'm glad you backed me up on this one. However, as long as there are members of the community who insist that it "will never happen" that sort of opinion will take hold and people will not try to push for it any more. To the poster who said that I pose this question: "how do you know for sure?"

I really think that if the Vintage community can come together on this then Wizards and the DCI could be convinced on a compromise like this 5-proxy sanctioning thing because it wouldn't destroy their business or the wallets of players who actually did invest in power. It's a sort of reasonable happy medium and In the long run it would, in fact, draw more people in to the game and make Wizards more money than if they just sit on their hands and do nothing.

Let's be fair, now. You have no data to prove, nor to know for sure, whether this plan of yours would actually work.

Really there are a lot of things working against Vintage:
-It's really a chore, sometimes, to view threads of a forum that boasts respectable moderation and users, while most members are out to post the most blunt and curt one-liners against an idea tabled here. It conveys the message: You don't belong here. You shouldn't even bother trying to play Vintage.
-I would probably pay money to be sure that never in my life will a sandwich will be punched, especially, but even touched by someone else's hands. To pay money to be in that environment specifically is questionable behavior for one's own health.
-Magic Workstation is free, can be played at any time, does not require any financial commitment or an entire Saturday. It can be played wherever there is a computer. It has all the cards a Vintage player needs. You can play against players from all over the world, and you can play against competitive players even when you do not live near them.
-I can't be the only one that doesn't think that nicknames for cards are very clever. Goofasaurus?

If a group of Magic players want people to come to tournaments, they should behave as people that others would want to be around. If they do not behave in such a manner that is encouraging, inviting, and conducive to a positive first impression and first experience, then they should not cry to Wizards of the Coast that their format is collapsing.

[Smmenen]

It was never unclear, and I'm glad you backed me up on this one. However, as long as there are members of the community who insist that it "will never happen" that sort of opinion will take hold and people will not try to push for it any more. To the poster who said that I pose this question: "how do you know for sure?"

I really think that if the Vintage community can come together on this then Wizards and the DCI could be convinced on a compromise like this 5-proxy sanctioning thing because it wouldn't destroy their business or the wallets of players who actually did invest in power. It's a sort of reasonable happy medium and In the long run it would, in fact, draw more people in to the game and make Wizards more money than if they just sit on their hands and do nothing.

Let's be fair, now. You have no data to prove, nor to know for sure, whether this plan of yours would actually work.

Really there are a lot of things working against Vintage:
-It's really a chore, sometimes, to view threads of a forum that boasts respectable moderation and users, while most members are out to post the most blunt and curt one-liners against an idea tabled here. It conveys the message: You don't belong here. You shouldn't even bother trying to play Vintage.
-I would probably pay money to be sure that never in my life will a sandwich will be punched, especially, but even touched by someone else's hands. To pay money to be in that environment specifically is questionable behavior for one's own health.
-Magic Workstation is free, can be played at any time, does not require any financial commitment or an entire Saturday. It can be played wherever there is a computer. It has all the cards a Vintage player needs. You can play against players from all over the world, and you can play against competitive players even when you do not live near them.
-I can't be the only one that doesn't think that nicknames for cards are very clever. Goofasaurus?

If a group of Magic players want people to come to tournaments, they should behave as people that others would want to be around. If they do not behave in such a manner that is encouraging, inviting, and conducive to a positive first impression and first experience, then they should not cry to Wizards of the Coast that their format is collapsing.

Oh man.

If you think that about the mana drain, I can only imagine what you think of the Source...

[dark burn]

So many players in my area use proxies because they cannot afford power.  It allows many more players to get into tournies and experience this amazing format.  5 proxies seem like a reasonable number but I believe that dropping to 5 will affect the metagame directly.  Workshop decks need to run the 5 moxen, black lotus, and 4 mishra's workshop.  With 5 proxies we would have to accept the fact that many players would be priced out of playing workshop decks at all.  I believe this is totally unacceptable.

[LordHomerCat]

It was never unclear, and I'm glad you backed me up on this one. However, as long as there are members of the community who insist that it "will never happen" that sort of opinion will take hold and people will not try to push for it any more. To the poster who said that I pose this question: "how do you know for sure?"

I really think that if the Vintage community can come together on this then Wizards and the DCI could be convinced on a compromise like this 5-proxy sanctioning thing because it wouldn't destroy their business or the wallets of players who actually did invest in power. It's a sort of reasonable happy medium and In the long run it would, in fact, draw more people in to the game and make Wizards more money than if they just sit on their hands and do nothing.

Let's be fair, now. You have no data to prove, nor to know for sure, whether this plan of yours would actually work.

Really there are a lot of things working against Vintage:
-It's really a chore, sometimes, to view threads of a forum that boasts respectable moderation and users, while most members are out to post the most blunt and curt one-liners against an idea tabled here. It conveys the message: You don't belong here. You shouldn't even bother trying to play Vintage.
-I would probably pay money to be sure that never in my life will a sandwich will be punched, especially, but even touched by someone else's hands. To pay money to be in that environment specifically is questionable behavior for one's own health.
-Magic Workstation is free, can be played at any time, does not require any financial commitment or an entire Saturday. It can be played wherever there is a computer. It has all the cards a Vintage player needs. You can play against players from all over the world, and you can play against competitive players even when you do not live near them.
-I can't be the only one that doesn't think that nicknames for cards are very clever. Goofasaurus?

If a group of Magic players want people to come to tournaments, they should behave as people that others would want to be around. If they do not behave in such a manner that is encouraging, inviting, and conducive to a positive first impression and first experience, then they should not cry to Wizards of the Coast that their format is collapsing.

Most of this is total crap, but I'm particularly baffled by this Sandwich Punch reference.  Seriously, do you have any idea what the fuck you're talking about?  Fine, complain that everyone here doesn't want to test Nourishing Lich or Shaman's Trance TPS or trash like that.  Whatever.  But when you seriously somehow cite Sandwich Punch of all things as a strike against Vintage in general, I just can't stay on the sidelines.  Show me some example of ANYONE not in the game getting a sandwich punched.  ANYONE at ANY EVENT.  It's not the way it works.  And if it happened (say, someone thought X person was in and they were not), YOU GET A NEW SANDWICH.  If you seriously are complaining that fun games that get people to go out to dinner after the tournament and make for awesome stories to tell with friends are somehow BAD for the community, you need to do some serious rethinking.  Things like that give people who are not on a first-name basis with vintage regulars something interesting to talk about.  It gives you a reason to go out to eat with people and get to know them.  It is a community builder 100%.  So really, complain that people don't like awful ideas here, and complain about nicknames because you're apparently too old for humor, and complain about MWS doing everything Vintage tournaments do, but please, please, please, don't complain about sandwich punch.  1000% Serious.

-Jimmy

Full Warning for inflammatory posting. No matter how passionate you are about Sandwich Punch, there's no need to react so aggressively in its defence.
-Godder

[Stormanimagus]

It was never unclear, and I'm glad you backed me up on this one. However, as long as there are members of the community who insist that it "will never happen" that sort of opinion will take hold and people will not try to push for it any more. To the poster who said that I pose this question: "how do you know for sure?"

I really think that if the Vintage community can come together on this then Wizards and the DCI could be convinced on a compromise like this 5-proxy sanctioning thing because it wouldn't destroy their business or the wallets of players who actually did invest in power. It's a sort of reasonable happy medium and In the long run it would, in fact, draw more people in to the game and make Wizards more money than if they just sit on their hands and do nothing.

Let's be fair, now. You have no data to prove, nor to know for sure, whether this plan of yours would actually work.

Really there are a lot of things working against Vintage:
-It's really a chore, sometimes, to view threads of a forum that boasts respectable moderation and users, while most members are out to post the most blunt and curt one-liners against an idea tabled here. It conveys the message: You don't belong here. You shouldn't even bother trying to play Vintage.
-I would probably pay money to be sure that never in my life will a sandwich will be punched, especially, but even touched by someone else's hands. To pay money to be in that environment specifically is questionable behavior for one's own health.
-Magic Workstation is free, can be played at any time, does not require any financial commitment or an entire Saturday. It can be played wherever there is a computer. It has all the cards a Vintage player needs. You can play against players from all over the world, and you can play against competitive players even when you do not live near them.
-I can't be the only one that doesn't think that nicknames for cards are very clever. Goofasaurus?

If a group of Magic players want people to come to tournaments, they should behave as people that others would want to be around. If they do not behave in such a manner that is encouraging, inviting, and conducive to a positive first impression and first experience, then they should not cry to Wizards of the Coast that their format is collapsing.

I find it a bit sad that you think Vintage players are whiners. They are not. They are some of the nicest magic players you'll ever meet, and my pushing Wizards to compromise is not because I'm a desperate Vintage player trying to get my way. It's because I want to draw more folks to a great format, and this seems the most reasonable way to do it.

Trust me. I've tried the Standard, Extended and Vintage scenes. Vintage, by far, draws the most polite and sportsmanlike players to magic. Standard and Extended showed me a lot of overly competitive big-egoed jerks who ruined tournaments for me for a while. Those two formats could certainly afford a chill pill before Vintage.

Please think before you overreact to a statement I was making regarding Wizards that was clearly just some hyperbole to catch people's attention. I think the folks at Wizards probably are very professional and care deeply about this great game. It's just that they may not always understand the inner workings of every format the same way the players do, and thus do not have the same insight in to the needs of the format as a whole.

[mike_bergeron]

-I would probably pay money to be sure that never in my life will a sandwich will be punched, especially, but even touched by someone else's hands. To pay money to be in that environment specifically is questionable behavior for one's own health.

You have angered the sandwich punch community.

Personally, I think CE/IE cards should be legal, I have played against them in a tournament and could not tell the difference.  This would push more power into the market, and help people get to this "5" number everyone likes to discuss.  To the people who own 'real' power- I apologize, but if you want to keep playing the game versus collecting the cards, this may be something that will have to be done at some point. 

Either that or just continue to wait this one out and see what happens this summer...

[policehq]

My post was mainly an addition to the questions Gunslinga posed earlier in the thread: have you brought a new player to a tournament, have you let a new player borrow cards, etc? The point I wanted to add was have you encouraged a new player to keep pursuing playing Vintage with you? I gave up on Vintage tournaments in the South Carolina area shortly before things started happening with Team Arsenal, Charleston, North Carolina, and Georgia, but mainly because of the online personae that are present here. If the way most members post here is anything like the way they behave in person, I want nothing to do with the latter. It is still interesting to read what new cards come out and the occasional Vintage development, but I certainly will not drive for hours and spend money to be in this environment.

I'm not suggesting that people should be given any false hopes of a deck that will not perform well, based on Lich or Shaman's Trance, Tolarian Academy combo, whatever else. But it must be getting old trying to see how concisely you can run a beginner's idea into the ground. And it definitely hurts the Vintage community.

[Stormanimagus]

My post was mainly an addition to the questions Gunslinga posed earlier in the thread: have you brought a new player to a tournament, have you let a new player borrow cards, etc? The point I wanted to add was have you encouraged a new player to keep pursuing playing Vintage with you? I gave up on Vintage tournaments in the South Carolina area shortly before things started happening with Team Arsenal, Charleston, North Carolina, and Georgia, but mainly because of the online personae that are present here. If the way most members post here is anything like the way they behave in person, I want nothing to do with the latter. It is still interesting to read what new cards come out and the occasional Vintage development, but I certainly will not drive for hours and spend money to be in this environment.

I'm not suggesting that people should be given any false hopes of a deck that will not perform well, based on Lich or Shaman's Trance, Tolarian Academy combo, whatever else. But it must be getting old trying to see how concisely you can run a beginner's idea into the ground. And it definitely hurts the Vintage community.

Do you believe the posters on TMD behave badly? I'm sorry you are having that impression, but I can assure you that I, and many other Vintage players are far more supportive of new players than any long-time Extended or T2 players are for those formats. Those formats are just bigger and more popular because they are what's played week in and week out. If Vintage had a thriving FNM scene I think you'd see a change--expansion, rather-- in the player base. I don't think the Shaman's Trance, or tolarian academy thing is a good enough reason to get angry at the Vintage community. Whoever commented on the idea was probably just trying to give you a realistic opinion on the potential of the idea. No one here (or, at least, none of the established players like ELD, Stephen, Jeff and Jeremiah) is here to shut people down, and I'll have words with anyone who says otherwise as I know these guys from tournaments, and I know the kinda guys they are. 'Nuff said I think.

[Campee]

This thread has devolved into a discussion about whether punching sandwiches is right or wrong. I'm so confused.

[Diakonov]

@Storm:

Let me insert my previous statement that I assume you are referring to so that people don't have to scroll back:

Wizards has no reason to really care about Vintage when they have Limited and Standard.  That is where they make money.  Hence, they are NOT going to reprint moxen or sanction proxies, EVER.  This would only serve to detract players who are involved in their money-making formats; by comparison, Vintage players net them virtually nothing in profits.  As far as I am concerned, it's completely up to us, the community, to fix this problem.

It was never unclear, and I'm glad you backed me up on this one. However, as long as there are members of the community who insist that it "will never happen" that sort of opinion will take hold and people will not try to push for it any more. To the poster who said that I pose this question: "how do you know for sure?"

I really think that if the Vintage community can come together on this then Wizards and the DCI could be convinced on a compromise like this 5-proxy sanctioning thing because it wouldn't destroy their business or the wallets of players who actually did invest in power. It's a sort of reasonable happy medium and In the long run it would, in fact, draw more people in to the game and make Wizards more money than if they just sit on their hands and do nothing.

Because Vintage is truly the format for the Magic Legends the promotional shot in the arm that magic could get from popularizing Vintage might actually be significant. I merely state this because I think Wizards needs to realize that there IS something potentially in it for them as well.

The first question to look into would be how much money Wizards makes off FNM registration and larger sanctioned events.  I believe that this doesn't amount to much when compared to the sale of cards.  Now, in order to draft or play Standard, you have to buy lots of cards; in Vintage, and especially with proxying, buying brand new cards is comparatively rare.

I bolded the above statement because if I were Wizards I might be worried about losing players (from other formats, specifically) if Vintage were to become more popular.  Also, even if it is true there are some big shots who might help promote Vintage if it were sanctioned, their fame and articles are already preaching to the choir.  In other words, they wouldn't help to introduce new players to the game in general, only to Vintage as a choice of format.

Perhaps I overreacted when I said it will not "EVER" happen, but I do think it would require an underground movement of magnificent proportions to get them to change.

[Stormanimagus]

This thread has devolved into a discussion about whether punching sandwiches is right or wrong. I'm so confused.

Me too. Let's get back on track.

The best alternative that's been posed to the current proxy setup for Vintage is, I think, the 5-proxy Sanctioned events that allow Vintage to creep its way in to FNMs.

So what do we think Vintage community? Do 5-proxy sanctioned Vintage FNMs sound like a decent compromise and would you support the idea? Other opinions?

[Diakonov]

Bad timing with our simultaneous postings.  My opinion is above.

[Nehptis]

The best alternative that's been posed to the current proxy setup for Vintage is, I think, the 5-proxy Sanctioned events that allow Vintage to creep its way in to FNMs.

5 is a low number.  However, if it were 5 + the Legalization of CE cards then we are getting to a better place.

I'll just throw this out there again.  But, my original suggestion was anything can be proxied as long as it was not from an Extended Legal Set.  And to put a wrapper around that.  Let's also say that there still would be a maximum Proxy # per deck, 15 is good.  And again legalize CE cards.

As soon as we allow Sanctioned Proxy events, CE card legalization goes hand in hand with that.

[BruiZar]

Who of you have actually picked up the phone and got in contact with the DCI to have a serious discussion about this topic?

[reaperbong]

CE cards will never be legalized simply because of the square corners and different back.

I agree with a 5 proxy limit, but would like to add that you should always be required to pay a fee to play with a proxy. There needs to be at least some incentive to own the expensive cards.

[Purple Hat]

Who of you have actually picked up the phone and got in contact with the DCI to have a serious discussion about this topic?

is this actually possible?

[Diakonov]

@Storm

I'm not normally the type to rain on people's parades.  You clearly have good intentions about solidifying the format, and I think it is a direction that should be taken more seriously right now by the community.  I just don't have confidence in the DCI's willingness to give us the necessary foundations.  Hopefully this isn't just a pipe dream, but let me propose an alternative idea: creating a pseudo-DCI, or at least some sort of "Vintage League" that has set standards. 

There have been a lot of satellite movements in an effort to solidify Vintage, and it might be smart to combine these efforts.  I'm talking about the ideas of creating small, weekly tournaments (FNM style) with the newly discussed "TMD Rating System," having a standardized proxy limit, standardized cost of entry, and so on. 

People will inevitably argue about "who gets to decide these things" but as long as they are compromised decisions, everyone would still rather appreciate a reliable Vintage scene.  Plus, we could organize a lot of fun things such as Team mini-events, which has been severely underutilized in the Magic community IMO as it breeds passionate competition.

What do you think?

[Stormanimagus]

@Storm

I'm not normally the type to rain on people's parades.  You clearly have good intentions about solidifying the format, and I think it is a direction that should be taken more seriously right now by the community.  I just don't have confidence in the DCI's willingness to give us the necessary foundations.  Hopefully this isn't just a pipe dream, but let me propose an alternative idea: creating a pseudo-DCI, or at least some sort of "Vintage League" that has set standards. 

There have been a lot of satellite movements in an effort to solidify Vintage, and it might be smart to combine these efforts.  I'm talking about the ideas of creating small, weekly tournaments (FNM style) with the newly discussed "TMD Rating System," having a standardized proxy limit, standardized cost of entry, and so on. 

People will inevitably argue about "who gets to decide these things" but as long as they are compromised decisions, everyone would still rather appreciate a reliable Vintage scene.  Plus, we could organize a lot of fun things such as Team mini-events, which has been severely underutilized in the Magic community IMO as it breeds passionate competition.

What do you think?

If it could be organized and attract players I'd be all for it. I'm just not sure it sends the right message to incomers from other formats. And let's face it: those are the people we're going for here.

I think it is follie to think that Vintage will somehow attract new MAGIC players over say, Standard, or Limited. It's very very hard for even those formats to attract non-magic players to magic so why would one think that Vintage could do it? We would basically be looking for new players to come from other formats then.

And even if we didn't get many players from other formats, my first priority IS to have more opportunities to compete and try out new decks so this does seem like a viable option: at least until Wizards and the DCI has the power to support such an enterprise themselves.

So my opinion is: not a bad a idea, but how to implement it? Call for a vote on some TMD people to head up a sort of "Vintage League Goverment"? perhaps. Most importantly there'd have to be representatives from various FNM places in the country who'd all:

a) have some sort of judging certification

b) show up to most events or have a proxy for when they can't

c) promote the format

d) stay in touch with the higher powers and regulators from TMD.

I'm in NYC right now, so I think Neutral Ground would be the place to hit up, but I really don't have the time to devote myself to being THAT person. I can certainly try to find out who could do it though if this idea gets some other support here.

Thanks for the input.

[Nehptis]

CE cards will never be legalized simply because of the square corners and different back.

As long as completely opaque sleeves are used (as with Alpha cards), this is not an issue.

[Harlequin]

I agree with a 5 proxy limit, but would like to add that you should always be required to pay a fee to play with a proxy. There needs to be at least some incentive to own the expensive cards.

I think the alternative is also fine, where Proxies are transferable.  This way each person is given 5 proxy tickets (handed in with deck registration).  This way you get a little reward if you do own power you can either give them away and earn coolness-points or trade them away to people who are over the limit.  It is almost identical economically to charging players for proxies... but has less of a sour taste to it.


I think one of the bigest barriers to vintage entry is the chasm between the "Haves" and the "Have nots."  Try to put yourself in a newcomer's shoes.  You just drop a few hundred bucks on Type 2, only to have the set cycle out by the time your deck was built.  You find out "hey there's this format where cards NEVER cycle out!? That's the format for me!"  So you do some research and decide ok I'm gunna play my type2 deck but add Mox and Lotus to it!  AND I can proxy those expensive cards!
 Now, we all know that this poor guy is about to get steam rolled.  He's about to see the top 2% powerwise of all magic cards ever printed.  (And he though Garruk was broken!) and he is probably going to see that most of these cards are rare, old, and expensive.  How are they going to feel if it costs them $8 more bucks than everyone else to lose?

[Diakonov]

If it could be organized and attract players I'd be all for it. I'm just not sure it sends the right message to incomers from other formats. And let's face it: those are the people we're going for here.

I think it is follie to think that Vintage will somehow attract new MAGIC players over say, Standard, or Limited. It's very very hard for even those formats to attract non-magic players to magic so why would one think that Vintage could do it? We would basically be looking for new players to come from other formats then.

I absolutely agree here.  Bringing players into Vintage who are new to Magic is unlikely in any form; it is simply easier to start with drafting/Standard.  If Vintage proxying were sanctioned it would certainly be more palatable for Standard players, but again, I think that is exactly why Wizards wouldn't do it.  Players from Standard will be looking for something more organized and systematic, and while we could never do as good a job at that as the DCI does, creating something is better than the haphazard, somewhat unreliable system we have now.

I think also we can't forget that there are a lot of ex-Vintage players out there who a separate category altogether.  If we really added up all the people who have Vintage cards and still play on occasion and were able to reignite their interest to make them consistent competitors, we might start to see numbers reminiscent of a Better Age.

I like the idea of voting for a "Vintage League Government" (although "Board" sounds less intimidating than "Government," I think).  It would be a very straightforward system that could be completely run by TMD.  Each member of TMD could cast a vote, and it would be entirely public.  Hopefully corruption wouldn't be much of an issue, because it is in the interest of the board members to keep people happy with the format (in other words, stores don't have to use this set of standards, so it would just start to become unused if it were not doing its job).

We would need to do a lot of promoting, but I think most of prospects would be excited about it.  After all, they come to us to advertise tournaments in the first place!

We probably wouldn't even need to have actual representatives; it could start out more casual.  Allow TO's to hold tournaments under this banner when they choose as long as they report the results to the TMD League Board.  I think most TO's would choose to do this over holding a random small T1 event, because just like with sanctioning, players will be more vigilant in attending if they feel that their results are connected with something bigger.

We should probably start a new thread if this topic picks up, because it's starting to take some turns.

EDIT: When I was talking about voting, I meant electing members to the Board like you said.  Just wanted to clarify.  All TMD members voting on each issue would be very ridiculous.

[Smmenen]

ry to put yourself in a newcomer's shoes.  You just drop a few hundred bucks on Type 2, only to have the set cycle out by the time your deck was built.  You find out "hey there's this format where cards NEVER cycle out!? That's the format for me!"  So you do some research and decide ok I'm gunna play my type2 deck but add Mox and Lotus to it!  AND I can proxy those expensive cards!
 Now, we all know that this poor guy is about to get steam rolled.  He's about to see the top 2% powerwise of all magic cards ever printed.  (And he though Garruk was broken!) and he is probably going to see that most of these cards are rare, old, and expensive.  How are they going to feel if it costs them $8 more bucks than everyone else to lose?

I don't think that accurately characterizes a Vintage newcomer.

People who come to Vintage are curious about the format, and likely have experience in Extended or Legacy.  People don't come to Vintage from Standard.   People curious about Vintage already are familiar with the older card pool, enjoy powerful cards and niche formats.  There is a good chance they like Online Classic or Elder Dragon Highlander.

[Anusien]

ry to put yourself in a newcomer's shoes.  You just drop a few hundred bucks on Type 2, only to have the set cycle out by the time your deck was built.  You find out "hey there's this format where cards NEVER cycle out!? That's the format for me!"  So you do some research and decide ok I'm gunna play my type2 deck but add Mox and Lotus to it!  AND I can proxy those expensive cards!
 Now, we all know that this poor guy is about to get steam rolled.  He's about to see the top 2% powerwise of all magic cards ever printed.  (And he though Garruk was broken!) and he is probably going to see that most of these cards are rare, old, and expensive.  How are they going to feel if it costs them $8 more bucks than everyone else to lose?

I don't think that accurately characterizes a Vintage newcomer.

Maybe it should.  Wizards uses FNM level Standard to draw people in, so why do we expect new players to jump right into GPT/PTQ level Vintage?

[Harlequin]

It's at least a catagory of vintage new-comer... It seems like a lot of people become drawn to eternal formats because the collections they have at some point become only legal in eternal formats.  An 99 times out of 100 there collections aren't full of power, duals, and vintage staples.

Asside from that My little story still works with any starting story, the point is that its hard to attract new players to vintage when it costs them more to lose than it costs the 'Regulars' to lose.  And everyone is playing for the same prize.

[Smmenen]

ry to put yourself in a newcomer's shoes.  You just drop a few hundred bucks on Type 2, only to have the set cycle out by the time your deck was built.  You find out "hey there's this format where cards NEVER cycle out!? That's the format for me!"  So you do some research and decide ok I'm gunna play my type2 deck but add Mox and Lotus to it!  AND I can proxy those expensive cards!
 Now, we all know that this poor guy is about to get steam rolled.  He's about to see the top 2% powerwise of all magic cards ever printed.  (And he though Garruk was broken!) and he is probably going to see that most of these cards are rare, old, and expensive.  How are they going to feel if it costs them $8 more bucks than everyone else to lose?

I don't think that accurately characterizes a Vintage newcomer.

Maybe it should.  Wizards uses FNM level Standard to draw people in, so why do we expect new players to jump right into GPT/PTQ level Vintage?

We don't.   No one expects new Magic players to jump into Vintage.   

[Stormanimagus]

ry to put yourself in a newcomer's shoes.  You just drop a few hundred bucks on Type 2, only to have the set cycle out by the time your deck was built.  You find out "hey there's this format where cards NEVER cycle out!? That's the format for me!"  So you do some research and decide ok I'm gunna play my type2 deck but add Mox and Lotus to it!  AND I can proxy those expensive cards!
 Now, we all know that this poor guy is about to get steam rolled.  He's about to see the top 2% powerwise of all magic cards ever printed.  (And he though Garruk was broken!) and he is probably going to see that most of these cards are rare, old, and expensive.  How are they going to feel if it costs them $8 more bucks than everyone else to lose?

I don't think that accurately characterizes a Vintage newcomer.

Maybe it should.  Wizards uses FNM level Standard to draw people in, so why do we expect new players to jump right into GPT/PTQ level Vintage?

We don't.   No one expects new Magic players to jump into Vintage.   

Stephen I think he does make a point. FNM style "smaller" events give newcomers the thing they need the most:

a low risk, low entry-fee venue in which to test their decks and learn how to even play Vintage in the first place. I'm not saying we should expect new players to jump in to Vintage, but they are what we're looking for to make Vintage a larger community right?

So, IF that is the goal some smaller tournies need to become a regular thing.

Think of this. You can draft with 8 people effectively. Heck, 8-16 people can round out a field for Standard FNM.

It's the venue that scares so many would-be vintage players away. There's no reason that every Vintage event needs to be 40 + people. Those events still have their place, but Vintage needs a weekly testing ground like FNM to attract new players.

It would bring me back to a format that I've convinced myself I really don't have time for when all the events are huge, large entry fee, long travel time, and hard to test for because I don't have a testing group because the events are so rare.

If it's hard for ME to justify playing Vintage, and it is the format I love primarily? Where does that leave the newb?

Just food for thought.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The fundamental problem with recruiting new players is that you need an environment that encourages the 5C sliver-aggro player to stay in the environment (and switch to a viable deck) rather than leaving in disgust.  And I'm not talking about the metagame, I'm talking about the social environment.

FNM is casual, unlike most vintage events.  We need lots of small, local tournaments: low entry fee, high % payout.

Also, there's a baffling catch22 about the idea that the goal of vintage is to win power and then play with it.  Without proxies, you *won't* be winning power if you don't already have it.