Progenitus Oath

[TheRock]

If the Hellkite - Progenitus combo would do 19 guaranteed instead of 18, then I would consider it a lot more.  Having an opponent who plays Vamp Tutor, Thoughtseize, or Ancient Tomb is pretty common and having red isn't uncommon either, but it's not as common as an opponent cracking a fetch in combination with the above.  However, as far as the Sphinx goes, a card that can be Blasted, Oxidized, and bounced by every artifact bounce spell in the format is very bad news.  Edict and Swords suck against Oath, but you don't want to give your opponents any more free outs than you are already giving them with Orchards.

If Swords to Plowshares or Edict actually become a problem, you can always run three maindeck creatures or simply side in an extra body.  It's definitely worth it to side in one card to make four of your opponents' cards useless - it won't stop Jester's Cap from being a problem though.

EDIT: Bad logic.  If you have an Orchard, you can do 19 anyway.  Argh.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

if there is one thing i've learned from years of playing oath, its that 18,19, and 20 damage are all very different. Its the differnce between FOW access to mana, and entire turns. ENITRE TURNS. You'd be surprised at how often your opponant doesn't deal them self any dmg. Anyone who's played akroma + razia can tell you that.

 a coment to your edit: You can't exactly count on halving orchard in play to activate oath all the time, creatures do see play in this format.

[wjcuttler]

After much consideration and debate. I must retract this statement:

The Sphinx is not optimal me thinks. Hellkite Ovelord and Progenitus is probably the best combination of Oath targets.

Reading this thread, the controversy seems to be over Hellkite versus Magister Sphinx as Oath targets.
Magister Sphinx only needs to come into play. He need not attack. Go ahead and Swords him, Red Elemental Blast him, he's already done his job. Your life total is 10.
However, this ability is Stifle-able. How many decks run Stifles? Probably the same decks running Swords and such.
When Hellkite flips up he needs to attack and when he does he swings for 8, maybe more with red mana. Unlikely to bring your opponent to less then 10 life.
Another reason I am not playing Hellkite is that he is difficult to get rid of once he's in your hand. Even running Thirst for Knowledge, Hellkite is neither an artifact nor does he shuffle back into your library right away.
Magister Sphinx discards to Thirst for Knowledge by himself being an artifact. Progenitus discards to Thirst with another card, but he shuffles back in immediately, ready to be flipped again.
As for Progenitus as an oath target, sure he doesn't have haste, but even on the rare occasion when I may flip him second, the opponent will have one turn to find an answer. What can they do? If the answer isn't Tendrilling off right then, they've lost. FYI, I haven't played against Tendrils in a while, but that's my meta.

[timp]

just curious...
has any one considered playing magister sphinx with hidetsugu's second rite

[Tha Gunslinga]

Wouldn't you rather just play Darksteel Colossus with Dragon Breath and Berserk?

[policehq]

Alternatively, if you have that much mana, you could do the above combo with a flashback Seize the Day. Flashback cards are much more accessible than Hidetsugu's Second Rite, which must be in your hand after Oathing and is useless before then.

I do not recommend either of these things though.

[Schonkreuz]

Magister Sphinx discards to Thirst for Knowledge by himself being an artifact. Progenitus discards to Thirst with another card, but he shuffles back in immediately, ready to be flipped again.

I have begun testing the Progenitus Oath deck and I must say the above reason is one of my favorites for playing the two new creatures. People argue that it can be delayed by one turn and I do agree that this is an inconvenience but having the cards stuck in your hand sucks just about as hard. I played the Hellkite Akroma version a few times, call me crazy but something just didn't seem to like me about the deck. I felt like every hand was awful and I must say it was the most miserable tournament I have ever played in. Another thing that I enjoy about Progenitus is that he is very hard to deal with. I don't have much else to say about the deck now but after the tournament Saturday I will look back over how I feel about the deck. Hopefully it all works out.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

If your talking about the scroll rack varient, I agree that something doesn't seem right about it. I'm not convinced its the oath targets that are wrong about it. The deck is only as good as its opening hands really, because it has one way to draw cards, ancestral recall. True scroll rack solves a lot of problems, but every time you play a card it gets worse, as a one of its inconsistant, and null rod is everywhere, so game one its not to hot.
Simply put its the same problem oath has always had: I need to draw cards in a cost effective way and be able to put back 2 of them because I never want to see them ever. Curently I do have something in the works that seems to be an imporvemnt in consisntancy, but its just not fast enough.  If it ends up being worth while I'll post a list.

[chrissss]

Magister Sphinx discards to Thirst for Knowledge by himself being an artifact. Progenitus discards to Thirst with another card, but he shuffles back in immediately, ready to be flipped again.

I played the Hellkite Akroma version a few times, call me crazy but something just didn't seem to like me about the deck. I felt like every hand was awful and I must say it was the most miserable tournament I have ever played in. Another thing that I enjoy about Progenitus is that he is very hard to deal with. I don't have much else to say about the deck now but after the tournament Saturday I will look back over how I feel about the deck. Hopefully it all works out.

I have to agree completely, I had the same, I always had bad hands or the wrong cards in play; I lost so many times because of Echoing Truth or Wipe away, which now isn´t a problem with progenitus. once its down your opponent has 2 turns (unless they play edicts or wog which rarely sees play in vintage) and the fact when you discard him he goes to the deck, rather than having to wait for blessing to trigger losing one turn.

[wjcuttler]

I have to agree completely, I had the same, I always had bad hands or the wrong cards in play; I lost so many times because of Echoing Truth or Wipe away, which now isn´t a problem with progenitus. once its down your opponent has 2 turns (unless they play edicts or wog which rarely sees play in vintage) and the fact when you discard him he goes to the deck, rather than having to wait for blessing to trigger losing one turn.

Edicts and Wrath do nothing but post-pone death, like you say 'he goes to the deck' so he's coming back...and soon. Mass bounce cards are going to be the real problem for Progenitus. Which are not being played right now in Vintage.

If your talking about the scroll rack varient, I agree that something doesn't seem right about it. I'm not convinced its the oath targets that are wrong about it. The deck is only as good as its opening hands really, because it has one way to draw cards, ancestral recall. True scroll rack solves a lot of problems, but every time you play a card it gets worse, as a one of its inconsistant, and null rod is everywhere, so game one its not to hot.
Simply put its the same problem oath has always had: I need to draw cards in a cost effective way and be able to put back 2 of them because I never want to see them ever. Curently I do have something in the works that seems to be an imporvemnt in consisntancy, but its just not fast enough.  If it ends up being worth while I'll post a list.

I believe both the creature selection and the replacement of Impulse with TFK has solved the problem of drawing cards in a cost effective way while tossing back the drawn targets. The synergy with the creatures and Thirst is really amazing. Although, if you have discovered something even better please fill us in.

...after the tournament Saturday I will look back over how I feel about the deck. Hopefully it all works out.

You will be pleased with the deck. Rather than 2-3 methods of recycling Oath targets you now have 6, in addition to not fearing targeted removal. Enjoy.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@chrisss. I've never lost a game of oath due to echoing truth, or wipe away. I really honestly believe that if your a good practiced player, boucing your dudes shouldn't be something that loses you games.

@wjcuttler. I agree that somethin needs to be done about the draw engine and agree that if your playing something TFKesqu progenitus does seem like a good good for consistancy sake (I'm working on something similar right now). However, the deck's mana base is not too tfk friendly, and i'm not talking about pitchbales. Not to mention with out brainstorm finding a second blue mana source drain isn't too reliable, hence the negates. The deck really needs a bit of an overhaul if thats your plan.

I also think you've under ephasised the importants of speed in your "edict/wrath" statement. When the oath hits the table, all your opponat really wants is to buy time.with a single edict your looking at a 4 turn clock, and thats the length of entire games in this format.

[Schonkreuz]

@ hvndr3d y34r h3x

I think a reason that wjcuttler and I might look down on negate is because where we play there is lot of aggro and fish decks, this doesn't stop us from playing them however just saying sometimes you'd rather it be some other counterspell. And in my experience (and watching wjcuttler play the deck) I don't understand how tfk could be too expensive. If you are going to ramp into two mana easy for a first turn or second turn oath another land/other mana source should really be all that difficult.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I agree with you about negate, I've been known to play mana leak in its place here and there, big blue mana decks but an end to it. But. i've definately had trouble getting to 3 mana with this deck. you open with land duress chalice 0 go. next turn waste something, then top deck mox (sad face) play fetch, and hope to god you've got an impulse to look for manas. If you think about it you only play 6 mana acellerants in your deck, statisticly with an opening of 7 you shouldn't see one without the aid of ponder/brainstorm/ancestral, my testing has confirmed this.

[Schonkreuz]

I understand what you mean now, the reason I may not have this problem is the build that I play does not run waste. Personally I was happy with this choice, I have the worst of luck with that card. Perhaps in the builds that do run tfk wastes/strip should not be including so that you can get to that three mana.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

@chrisss. I've never lost a game of oath due to echoing truth, or wipe away. I really honestly believe that if your a good practiced player, boucing your dudes shouldn't be something that loses you games.

@wjcuttler. I agree that somethin needs to be done about the draw engine and agree that if your playing something TFKesqu progenitus does seem like a good good for consistancy sake (I'm working on something similar right now). However, the deck's mana base is not too tfk friendly, and i'm not talking about pitchbales. Not to mention with out brainstorm finding a second blue mana source drain isn't too reliable, hence the negates. The deck really needs a bit of an overhaul if thats your plan.

I also think you've under ephasised the importants of speed in your "edict/wrath" statement. When the oath hits the table, all your opponat really wants is to buy time.with a single edict your looking at a 4 turn clock, and thats the length of entire games in this format.

If you really want to run Mana Drain and need a card to dig for 1 mana why not run Serum Visions? It can dig up to 3 cards deep drops on turn 1 can put big dudes from the top of your library to the bottom so you don't draw them and cantrips for topdeck tutors. It also reduces your reliance on moxes to dig so that Null Rod is more effective and it doesn't have the drawback of requiring a mox to dig like impulse or a relevantly fast TfK. Of course its no brainstorm or ponder but both those cards are restriction-worthy so go figure.

[wjcuttler]

@FlyByFry
I think you missed something here:

the deck's mana base is not too tfk friendly

I think you may have read this:

with out brainstorm finding a second blue mana source drain isn't too reliable

and got confused.
Although I would've thought this explained it:

I understand what you mean now, the reason I may not have this problem is the build that I play does not run waste. Personally I was happy with this choice, I have the worst of luck with that card. Perhaps in the builds that do run tfk wastes/strip should not be including so that you can get to that three mana.

I also think you've under ephasised the importants of speed in your "edict/wrath" statement. When the oath hits the table, all your opponat really wants is to buy time.with a single edict your looking at a 4 turn clock, and thats the length of entire games in this format.

@ Hex: Provided the Edict resolves and that I have a single creature, the clock very well could be 4 turns, but most likely 3. I flip Progenitus [turn 1]. In response to my Oath trigger, you Edict. Progenitus is saced and shuffles back in. Progenitus is flipped back up (with or without LD Vault aid) [turn 2]. Magister Sphinx flips up your life total is 10. Attack with Progenitus. Your dead. [turn 3]

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Well my point still stands as far as I can tell Oath is the kind of deck that would welcome a : dig 3 cards deep cantrip. I'm assuming if Ponder was unrestricted it would get run as a 4-of so why not incorporate XxSerum Visions for simultaneous consistancy in both digging for oath and keeping yourself from drawing jank mid-late game. Previous Oath decks don't seem to have had the problem of running strip effects+TfK. This list was recently run to a T8 at the Myriad Games Vintage Tournament:

1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2 Hellkite Overlord

instant [23]

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
1 Lat-Nam's Legacy
4 Mana Leak
3 Stifle
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wipe Away

sorcery [3]

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk

enchantment [4]

4 Oath of Druids

artifact [11]

1 Black Lotus
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

land [16]

2 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

60 cards

I wonder if they faced the issue of waste messing up thier own mana base as much as their opponent's. In my opinion it begs the question as to would you run 4 ponders if legal and if so why not serum visions as a slightly weaker substitute. The fact is that fixing mana and cards earlier with Serum Visions can buy some time to run slightly slower but much more resilient creatures as seems to be the whole debate with angels to win now vs progenitus/sphynx/leviathan to win later.

Suddenly a hand like:

Orchard, Oath, Land, Negate, Thirst, Chalice, Serum Visions

Looks better than:

Orchard, Oath, Land, Negate, Thirst, Chalice, Impulse

There are probably lots of examples to show the merits of each thirst/impulse/serum vision but you need a mox or something that costs 1 mana for an opening hand to curve nicely in Oath in my opinion. You're right I may have missed the point but I think running strip effects can be a viable route with Serum Visions to fix the risk factor of having to blow a land to hinder your opponent by smoothing out draws.

[chrissss]

@chrisss. I've never lost a game of oath due to echoing truth, or wipe away. I really honestly believe that if your a good practiced player, boucing your dudes shouldn't be something that loses you games.

Well I was very unlucky and  my opponents had tinker first turn about  every other game, which pissed me off. so then by the time I had my oath in play and a creature, I was at 9 life and I had to block the colossus with my dragon and angel. it sucked obviously, and then a few other games it came down to the race vs colossus and my creatures, and wipe away killed me again. wipe away on an oath target sucks, its way more annoying than doing it on the oath, since the oath can be recasted, while the creatures have to be discarded and shuffled back into your deck.
But like I said, I was unlucky, but I would have won if I had used progenitus. also one opponent drew 3 swords in a row, which was again really unlucky for me, but again the hydra God would have been better.

[wjcuttler]

I'm assuming if Ponder was unrestricted it would get run as a 4-of so why not incorporate XxSerum Visions for simultaneous consistancy in both digging for oath and keeping yourself from drawing jank mid-late game.
In my opinion it begs the question as to would you run 4 ponders if legal and if so why not serum visions as a slightly weaker substitute.

No, I wouldn't run 4 Ponders if legal. Ponder does not help with getting rid of drawn Oath targets, and neither does Serum Visions. If you are having problems drawing jank, stop playing with jank.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I actualy think ponder would be a 4x easily. Occasionly the shock of restricting ponder hasn't quite set in. So building varients and playing through a few games I think , "man, I should play more ponder in here.... ohh yeah, its restircted!" (I'm smart hey) ponder is great at sculpting your hand and help you not draw your dudes in the 1st place, and its blue! it would definatly be a 4x.

I don't think serum visions quite makes the cut for being good enough. Serum vision isn't quite comparable to a 1 cc impulse where as ponder is.

[Suicideking]

I guarantee ponder would be a four-of in oath if it was unrestricted.  Im not sure if you all played oath in the four ponder days but it is insanely good at finding oath pieces fast.

[wjcuttler]

I guarantee ponder would be a four-of in oath if it was unrestricted.  Im not sure if you all played oath in the four ponder days but it is insanely good at finding oath pieces fast.

You mean the four Ponder days when running four Brainstorms was also legal?
In 'those days' you could use almost any other draw engine you liked (Ponder included). You need not worry over silly matters such as getting rid of Oath targets in your hand or mana fixing, or a ton of other stuff (Duress, etc.). You have four Brainstorms.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I guarantee ponder would be a four-of in oath if it was unrestricted.  Im not sure if you all played oath in the four ponder days but it is insanely good at finding oath pieces fast.

You mean the four Ponder days when running four Brainstorms was also legal?
In 'those days' you could use almost any other draw engine you liked (Ponder included). You need not worry over silly matters such as getting rid of Oath targets in your hand or mana fixing, or a ton of other stuff (Duress, etc.). You have four Brainstorms.

i think your focusing too much on what brainstorm does, and not enough on what ponder does. by the logic your using no one should run any draw engine at all becuase you might draw your dudes and you can't brainstorm them back. ponder can keep you from drawing your dudes, help find your brainstorm, or even defeat duress by arranging the top cards of your library. ponder is VERY similar to brainstorm, and in certain cases, I like it better, especialy when looking for mana.
what your looking for is a balance of the amount of cards you can see, with a reasonable price. Ponder, at a 3+mystery option for  is definately a good deal.

[wjcuttler]

i think your focusing too much on what brainstorm does, and not enough on what ponder does. by the logic your using no one should run any draw engine at all becuase you might draw your dudes and you can't brainstorm them back. ponder can keep you from drawing your dudes, help find your brainstorm, or even defeat duress by arranging the top cards of your library. ponder is VERY similar to brainstorm, and in certain cases, I like it better, especialy when looking for mana.
what your looking for is a balance of the amount of cards you can see, with a reasonable price. Ponder, at a 3+mystery option for  is definately a good deal.

Okay let's focus on what Ponder does. It's a sorcery that draws one card. One card that sometimes, like you said, is a mystery card. I don't see how this defeats Duress. Rearranging your top 3 cards won't get you your Oath back. Sure it MIGHT find you another, or it might just blind draw you into an Oath target!
I like Ponder, it is a good card. Don't get me wrong. I just like Brainstorm more, especially in Oath.

If your talking about the scroll rack varient, I agree that something doesn't seem right about it. Simply put its the same problem oath has always had: I need to draw cards in a cost effective way and be able to put back 2 of them because I never want to see them ever.

You said it best. Okay Ponder is a good deal, no doubt. It draws a card, cost effective, sure. Being able to put 2 back, negative.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

i think your focusing too much on what brainstorm does, and not enough on what ponder does. by the logic your using no one should run any draw engine at all becuase you might draw your dudes and you can't brainstorm them back. ponder can keep you from drawing your dudes, help find your brainstorm, or even defeat duress by arranging the top cards of your library. ponder is VERY similar to brainstorm, and in certain cases, I like it better, especialy when looking for mana.
what your looking for is a balance of the amount of cards you can see, with a reasonable price. Ponder, at a 3+mystery option for  is definately a good deal.

Okay let's focus on what Ponder does. It's a sorcery that draws one card. One card that sometimes, like you said, is a mystery card. I don't see how this defeats Duress. Rearranging your top 3 cards won't get you your Oath back. Sure it MIGHT find you another, or it might just blind draw you into an Oath target!
I like Ponder, it is a good card. Don't get me wrong. I just like Brainstorm more, especially in Oath.

If your talking about the scroll rack varient, I agree that something doesn't seem right about it. Simply put its the same problem oath has always had: I need to draw cards in a cost effective way and be able to put back 2 of them because I never want to see them ever.

You said it best. Okay Ponder is a good deal, no doubt. It draws a card, cost effective, sure. Being able to put 2 back, negative.

obviously, ponder is not brainstorm, we understand that, and you need to get over it. ponder defeats duress by keeping key cards (via the arangemnt of the top 3 cards) out of your hand till the turn the turn you plan to use them. This takes a minimal amount of planing.

[Troy_Costisick]

obviously, ponder is not brainstorm, we understand that, and you need to get over it. ponder defeats duress by keeping key cards (via the arangemnt of the top 3 cards) out of your hand till the turn the turn you plan to use them. This takes a minimal amount of planing.

I think you're stretching the qualities of Ponder a little too far in claiming it defeats Duress somehow.  The best thing about Ponder is that it smooths out land draws and can get you mana sources when you need them.  If you see a good card you need in the top 3 of your deck, you're going to put it on top- plain and simple.  You're not going to put it two cards down because you think your opponent might somehow cast Duress next turn.  Sure, you'll arange the cards in the order that best suits your mana curve, but defeating Duress is hardly a factor in deciding how to stack the top three.

[zeus-online]

If you see a good card you need in the top 3 of your deck, you're going to put it on top- plain and simple.  You're not going to put it two cards down because you think your opponent might somehow cast Duress next turn.

While i think you're right that ponder isn't there to combat duress (Obv)...What you're saying here makes no sence...are you assuming that everyone will make a mistake when using ponder vs. a deck with duress? You should obv. put the card 2nd from top if you aren't going to use it this turn and fear a duress from the opponent.

/Zeus

[Troy_Costisick]

If you see a good card you need in the top 3 of your deck, you're going to put it on top- plain and simple.  You're not going to put it two cards down because you think your opponent might somehow cast Duress next turn.

While i think you're right that ponder isn't there to combat duress (Obv)...What you're saying here makes no sence...are you assuming that everyone will make a mistake when using ponder vs. a deck with duress? You should obv. put the card 2nd from top if you aren't going to use it this turn and fear a duress from the opponent.

Which is exactly what I said.  Notice I said, "a good card you need."  If you don't need it in your hand, then you're not going to put it on top.  Also notice that later on in my post I said, "you'll arange the cards in the order that best suits your mana curve..." Which I intended to be interpreted to mean, "If you can't play it this turn and don't plan on tutoring, you're not going to put it on top of your library regardless of Duress."  But I didn't want to have to go into such a lengthy explanation if I didn't have to.  All your post does is simply elaborate on the points I already made.

[zeus-online]

To me your post sounds exactly like youre going to take whatever card you need, draw it this turn even if you don't plan on using it until next turn and then loose horribly to duress.

Anyway, i'm glad that we atleast agree not to make obvious mistakes

/Zeus

[Troy_Costisick]

To me your post sounds exactly like youre going to take whatever card you need, draw it this turn even if you don't plan on using it until next turn and then loose horribly to duress.

I meant need in the most immediate sense of the word.  As in, "I need this because I am capable and it is my advantage to play it right now."  If I might guess, you were using need to mean in a more long term sense.  As in, "I need Oath of Druids if I'm going to win eventually even though, at the moment, the board state says I can't play it right now."  And that is my error in communication.  I should have been more precise in my language.