A Meditation on Mystic Remora

[GerryT]

My report is finally up at:

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/chasing-victory-a-meditation-on-vintage-in-kyoto/

The website is new, so either LSV or I are willing to listen to any and all criticisms.

[The Atog Lord]

Thank you for posting the report. It was well-written and very much worth reading.

[vassago]

You should write more articles! This one was quite an interesting read. I also like your writing style.

On a side not, I noticed the remark "his eyes goe wild" is this just flavor or do you pro players pay attention to the nonverbal body language? Sometimes I do think it to be a relevant "skill" or ability to be able to notice this kind of thing.

Etiher way, congrats on the win! Hopefully you will crush many other tournys so we can get another awesome report.

[InfectedMushroom]

Watching your opponent is very key to playing the game well. Much like with Poker, you must pay attention to all the details and learn your opponents tells. Of course you can try bluffing, which I try to do, however paying close attention to the other side of the table can pay off extremely well.

[Clint_NZ]

Hey Gerry

Wicked report, I had to look up the oracle text for Remora after this statement

In your report you state

Quote
"He reveals Ancestral of Confidant and tries to Tinker. I draw a card off remora, then try to cast Meditate. For some reason, he
Forces the Meditate removing Ancestral, I draw a card, and then Force Tinker removing Leviathan, which resolves"

After reading that I had to check as I thought it was only when a spell resolves!!

Reading for the win.

[benthetenor]

After reading that I had to check as I thought it was only when a spell resolves!!

Nah, the card would suck balls if that were the case.

And Gerry, I'll have you know that you were my inspiration for playing this at the side event at GP Chicago. When you draw that many cards, nothing but good things can happen. Such as:

"But I just draw Key and kill him, so it doesn’t matter."

Classic.

[GerryT]

You should write more articles! This one was quite an interesting read. I also like your writing style.

On a side not, I noticed the remark "his eyes goe wild" is this just flavor or do you pro players pay attention to the nonverbal body language? Sometimes I do think it to be a relevant "skill" or ability to be able to notice this kind of thing.

Etiher way, congrats on the win! Hopefully you will crush many other tournys so we can get another awesome report.

Thanks. I actually do quite a bit of writing (formerly Star City, now ChannelFireball). As for the body language thing, I try to pay as much attention as possible, but some of the Japanese players really just let it all hang out. It would be extremely hard for me to not notice the whole "eyes go wide" thing because of how over the top their reactions were. A lot of them were just really having fun playing some Vintage and while most of my opponents' play was pretty tight, I could usually tell when I was winning.

I've seen some mentions of this deck being played at Waterbury and was wondering what those people's experiences were. Granted, I've only played the one tournament, but it felt extremely difficult to lose so I'm wondering why this deck isn't putting up results. Maybe there aren't enough people playing it or maybe the format is more wide open than I give it credit for.

[Tempus]

I played the Deck yesterday in a 40+ people tournament and it sucked because i played against 4 creature Decks and lost 3 of those Matches. The 4th loss was against a Remora-Painter-Stone-Deck with REB. Game 1 I drew more cards, Game 2 he comboed out by Turn 3 (after I tinkered 4 inkwell and had to protect that) and Game 3 he drew more cards and stole my Time Vault which makes Remoras expensive... I crushed Tez...

So I lost 3 games against creatures, which makes me play with Rituals again...

[Webster]

I've put together a small piece on the site that I write for about Mystic Remora. Some people may find it interesting.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/according-to-webster-dissecting-a-remora/

[jamestosetti]

        I've played against the deck quite a few times Gerry and it is a pretty ruff deck to face. The matches are nearly unwinnable when they are using 2 remora's and bounce with alot of land but the game seems pretty one sided if they can't get the remora's going. If you have never played against the deck and then you face it I'd say your toast.

[vassago]

I've put together a small piece on the site that I write for about Mystic Remora. Some people may find it interesting.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/according-to-webster-dissecting-a-remora/

Awesome article! I enjoyed reading this! This is a good read, and does real well with explaining the deck i think.   I think anyone who is not familiar with the deck, should read it, especially if they plan on playing it 

On a side note: I think spending a little bit of time describing how to combat the deck would have made all the better.  I know some people are good at reading between the lines and figuring out its weakness', but explaining it in detail would have been great.  I guess what i am trying to say is, most people do not get to play test extensively so pointing out some rather obvious plays would have been informative.

[Webster]

On a side note: I think spending a little bit of time describing how to combat the deck would have made all the better.  I know some people are good at reading between the lines and figuring out its weakness', but explaining it in detail would have been great.  I guess what i am trying to say is, most people do not get to play test extensively so pointing out some rather obvious plays would have been informative.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/according-to-webster-reeling-in-the-vintage-remora/

Part two of the article is up. I discuss how to play against the Remora deck with some of the more popular archetypes.

[vassago]

Another good read sir!  I would say you forgot about the fish and dredge archetypes, but those playing with the decks have the added benefit of autopilot, and rather obvious choices. 

So Monday nights is when you post your type 1 articles?  If this is the case, I will make a habit of going to the channelfireball.com and reading them every week. 

[Webster]

Another good read sir!  I would say you forgot about the fish and dredge archetypes, but those playing with the decks have the added benefit of autopilot, and rather obvious choices. 

So Monday nights is when you post your type 1 articles?  If this is the case, I will make a habit of going to the channelfireball.com and reading them every week. 

Your suspicions about Dredge and Fish are correct. There isn't nearly as much strategy involved in beating Remora with those decks.

Normally, my articles go up on Tuesday Night at 12 AM (Midnight) Eastern Time.

[Smmenen]

I'm glad you mentioned Xantid Swarm, which is one of the most powerful options that combo pilots can use to combat Mystic Remora.   

[Odd mutation]

I've put together a small piece on the site that I write for about Mystic Remora. Some people may find it interesting.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/according-to-webster-dissecting-a-remora/

Hi, very interesting read! Congratulations.

If Thirst for Knowledge is only there for quality, not card advantage, wouldn't it be better to play Impulse over Thirst? Just an idea...

Robrecht

[Webster]

I've put together a small piece on the site that I write for about Mystic Remora. Some people may find it interesting.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/according-to-webster-dissecting-a-remora/

Hi, very interesting read! Congratulations.

If Thirst for Knowledge is only there for quality, not card advantage, wouldn't it be better to play Impulse over Thirst? Just an idea...

Robrecht

That's not the case though.

The deck wants as much mana in play as possible.
That need translates into wanting to hold onto its moxes with TFK to play them.
While it'd be nice to play them all, if you're playing TFK in a deck, then you've resigned to discarding artifacts when you play it.
No one actually wants to discard more than one card to TFK.

[jamestosetti]

What does everyone think about wisescale serpant and mind funeral being playable cards in remora tezz?


Heres the list I've been testing so far.

4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 underground sea
5 island
1 swamp
1 library of alexandria

glen elandra archmage
psycatog
inkwell leviathan

black lotus
sol ring
5 mox
intuition
3 meditate
2 duress
3 mystic remora
1 timewalk
2 commendeer
4 mana drain
4 force of will
thirst for knowledge
fact or fiction
demonic tutor
vampiric tutor
yawgmoth's will
ancestral recall
brainstorm
merchant scroll
echoing truth
tinker
time vault
voltaic key
tezzeret the seeker
psionic blast


s/b
2 hurkyl's recall
2 extirpate
2 negate
3 relic of progenitus
tormod's crypt
sower of temptation
massacre
propagonda
2 phyrexian negator

That's alot of borrowed tech but I just go for what I would feel comfortable playing.

[The Atog Lord]

Psionic Blast should not be in this deck. It is useful if your opponent has resolved a creature, and you can't find an answer to that creature. Sower of Temption and Old Man of the Sea handle the situation better. And don't deal two damage to you.

I also don't think Tezzeret belongs in the deck. He has bad synergy with skipping your turn. And he makes you more vulnerable to creatures. There are perfectly good Tezzeret decks to play, but I don't think this is one of them.

The sole Thirst for Knowledge should become the fourth Meditate. Meditate is strictly better in this deck than Thirst. You want card advantage. You don't want to discard Moxen. And you don't have enough artifacts to discard to Thirst.

[Webster]

What does everyone think about wisescale serpant and mind funeral being playable cards in remora tezz?

Heres the list I've been testing so far.

What is your reasoning behind:

Glen Elendra Archmage
Less than 4 Mystic Remora
Basic swamp plus LOA
Intuition
Psionic Blast
Thirst for Knowledge over Meditate #4
Duress

Why exactly would you want to play Mind Funeral, a card which doesn't accelerate Remora's game plan or help against bad matchups?

Wisescale Serpent's problem is that it's green.
At the point of splashing a color, you have to ask yourself,
"Is green actually better than red?"
I don't think it is.

[vassago]

Not that I think it would be good in this deck, but I do like the gators out of the board.  Unfortunately, I think there is too many needed cards for the sideboard for this deck to be able to fit it in.

[jamestosetti]

I think it should be four mystic remora after some more testing. I can't even test archmage due to a bunch of eventide cards somehow blocked from my masterbase. I think archmage would be a very good card because it counters then comes back. Psionic blast is for tezzeret for the most part. Mind funeral seems awesome because it can't be misdirected and I would say most vault decks do not run commendeer. It seems pretty good as a 1 of to me because the opponent is going to lose a good part of his important cards because of this. It would set them up for the yawgmoth's will if it comes through his path but that's an if. I'll try the fourth meditation and see what it does for me. As for this not being a good deck. How big of an impact has the other list made on the tournament seen?

[benthetenor]

I think it should be four mystic remora after some more testing. I can't even test archmage due to a bunch of eventide cards somehow blocked from my masterbase. I think archmage would be a very good card because it counters then comes back. Psionic blast is for tezzeret for the most part. Mind funeral seems awesome because it can't be misdirected and I would say most vault decks do not run commendeer. It seems pretty good as a 1 of to me because the opponent is going to lose a good part of his important cards because of this. It would set them up for the yawgmoth's will if it comes through his path but that's an if. I'll try the fourth meditation and see what it does for me. As for this not being a good deck. How big of an impact has the other list made on the tournament seen?

If Psionic Blast is just for other Tezzerets, then Red Elemental Blast is strictly better in any situation.

[jamestosetti]

Another reason I like it is because you can kill the opponent with it. Also If you noticed this deck has no red in it. You can give them a pretty good beating with the psycatog so the blast has some pretty good potential. Like I said I just play what I like to play. As long as you make halfway intelligent decisions it doesn't really matter what deck your running.

[Vegeta2711]

Another reason I like it is because you can the opponet with it. Also If you noticed this deck has no red in it. You can give them a pretty good beating with the psycatog so the blast has some pretty good potential. Like I said I just play what I like to play. AS long as you make halfway intelligent decisions it doesn't really matter what deck your runing.

But then the question becomes, why would you want to do this terrible, terrible thing? If you give them a 'good beating' with Psychatog, they'll be DEAD.

Also you should reread what others have posted before trying to defend your decisions based on the 0 testing you've apparently done. You use 'seems' about 4000 times in this thread. It seems like you'd have a lot more of a leg to stand on if you could quantify any of your statements with reasonable data or reasoning other than it seems good.

[jamestosetti]

Yes, quantifying is my second favorite thing to do. As for zero testing I'd say that is innacurate. Let's not make this personal like it always has to be on this site. Just send me the pm so these people don't have to read these antagonizing statements.

[benthetenor]

Another reason I like it is because you can kill the opponent with it. Also If you noticed this deck has no red in it. You can give them a pretty good beating with the psycatog so the blast has some pretty good potential. Like I said I just play what I like to play. As long as you make halfway intelligent decisions it doesn't really matter what deck your running.

The version I play doesn't currently run red, either, but in that case, I don't care about Tezzeret. Bring in Thoughtseize and you're fine.

At the very least, Meditate #4 or Mystic Remora #4 are both superior to Psionic Blast. You will win more games with an optimal list than you will with a random Psionic Blast.

Make no mistake, the justification "As long as you make halfway intelligent decisions, it doesn't matter what you're running" is flat out incorrect. There is a set of cards out there that will win the most number of games on average. That is the correct list to be playing. Just because the deck is so powerful that you can afford to run sub-optimal cards without losing every game does not give you justification to run sub-optimal cards. You will lose more games than you should. If you're okay with that, then by all means, play whatever you want to play. Personally, I'd prefer to win.

[The Atog Lord]

Like I said I just play what I like to play.

James, if you'd like to create a deck using your very favorite Magic cards because you like them, that's a perfectly fine thing to do. However, this is the Vintage Development Forum, not the Casual Forum. "Because I like it" isn't sufficient here. You're free to sleeve up whichever cards you like when you go to a tournament; but if you post your decklist here, then it is fair to expect that your card choices are going to be criticized. Especially if you clearly haven't even bothered to test the decklist that you're showing everyone.

As long as you make halfway intelligent decisions it doesn't really matter what deck your running.

This is false. Slight differences in deck configuration can mean the difference between winning the tournament and not making Top Eight at all. Sure, you might be lucky and go through the entire tournament without drawing your Psionic Blast. But that's unlikely. And besides that, running Psionic Blast in this deck is not an intelligent decision in the first place.

Mind funeral seems awesome because it can't be misdirected and I would say most vault decks do not run commendeer.

I'll respond to this, even though I assume this statement is a joke. Why would anyone want to misdirect this? Mind Funeral being cast on you helps you to enjoy a more powerful Yawgmoth's Will. It also does nothing to impact the board, your hand, or your opponent's hand. So, as far as spells the opponent might play and (deliberately) target me with, this is fairly high up on the list. You can do better for four mana. Gifts Ungiven, Concentrate, and Deep Analysis are all much better four mana spells than something that mills the opponent for around 12 cards.

How big of an impact has the other list made on the tournament seen?

If you mean "scene," then the deck has won several tournaments. That's usually how one judges whether a deck is viable or not.

[jamestosetti]

     Mayby I was to relaxed when I wrote the first post. I actually thought the deck out very thoroughly. I would run this deck in a tournament. The cards I chose are to play against the highest level of play. I have not lost a single match so far. In a Tezzeret metagame I don't see how psionic blast could be called a bad choice. When I say I have not lost a single match so far that must mean that this has some potential. Also when I say I play with the cards I like that means I try not to limit myslef to net decking but I will actually think for myself every now and then. If you think this is one for the casual forum I would hate to see what you think of half of the other lists posted on here. I don't come here for petty arguments and I'm not going to roll over and take it.

[Kiriyuu]

I've found Glen Elendra Arch Mage to be very useful as it allows you to hold up mana for more counterspells when you give them extra turns with meditate, at the cost of only U per counter. I've had issues playing meditate with remora on board, and then drawing many cards from the meditate and their spells on the extra turn, but not finding pitch magic, and losing, so maybe I'm just playing meditate at the wrong times, but Glen Elendra has helps me cast it safely more often, and when you get to do this you normally can bury them in card advantage.

Again, finding that I had problems with the amount of 'control' rather than the amount of 'draw' I switched the single thirst for knowledge with a single negate, and have found this very useful.

I've also experimented with Tolarian academy, library of alexandria and Mishra's factory in this deck, though with pretty mixed results for these cards, often they are really good, but I also have the nagging feeling that basic lands just might be better!

I'll post the list I have been testing tomorrow I hope, and get ready for your harsh critique!

robert.