[Deck] Master T Slaver

[nataz]

was there any thought of running vault + key into the mix? I mean eot master T -> key, re-use master T -> vault, untap win?

[Rock Lee]

was there any thought of running vault + key into the mix? I mean eot master T -> key, re-use master T -> vault, untap win?

I did give Vault-Key consideration for awhile. However. without the extensive array of tutors that Tezz decks are running, you often will have one combo piece with no way to find the other. The concept behind "just run robots" is that you only need one to win. Both welder & Transmuter allow most of your robots in a singleton to cause incredible sustained destruction to an opponent.

[vartemis]

I like how you can sneak in 7 damage with Islandwalk, then untap the beast with Thousand-Year Elixer.


Why aren't you playing with Crucibles and Mox Diamonds? It would make your mana base so much less shaky, renders you immune to strip(lock) and gives you striplock too. Would also work well if you're considering Mindslaver.

Sadly Shroud prevents me from giving the Leviathan Vigilance.

You can use MT to give him vigilance though.  The question is whether you want to use it for that purpose, or if you have something else to do.

j

[sWoRdFiSh`]

Congrats on the strong finish!
It's great to see that the naysayers were wrong with Master T.

A couple of questions regarding Inkwell Leviathan tho:

Can you please expound more on running a singleton of this card VS nothing at all?
Its strength against Fish is notable, but if you expect lots or little of Fish in your meta, has your testing shown that it's worth to increase its numbers (lots of Fish) or cut it completely from the MD (little Fish)?
Wouldn't Titan almost always be better in dealing with control/Fish, that is, remove their ability to cast their removal in the first place (and punish them if they ever resolve one on Titan) while protecting it via Master T?
Thing is, I see nearly all of your robots have some nifty ability of their own other than just being beatsticks (BIG beatsticks, that is).
Leviathan somehow shy's away from that trend.

Don't get me wrong, I love Leviathan, I just don't see evident compelling reasons to run it main.

[Rock Lee]

Congrats on the strong finish!
It's great to see that the naysayers were wrong with Master T.

A couple of questions regarding Inkwell Leviathan tho:

Can you please expound more on running a singleton of this card VS nothing at all?
Its strength against Fish is notable, but if you expect lots or little of Fish in your meta, has your testing shown that it's worth to increase its numbers (lots of Fish) or cut it completely from the MD (little Fish)?
Wouldn't Titan almost always be better in dealing with control/Fish, that is, remove their ability to cast their removal in the first place (and punish them if they ever resolve one on Titan) while protecting it via Master T?
Thing is, I see nearly all of your robots have some nifty ability of their own other than just being beatsticks (BIG beatsticks, that is).
Leviathan somehow shy's away from that trend.

Don't get me wrong, I love Leviathan, I just don't see evident compelling reasons to run it main.

The reasons are simple. Leviathan is the best Turn 1 tinker target. In the early game without tinker it pitches to force, and endgame it ends a standstill. It is strictly your worst robot in the midgame, but will get the job done in a pinch.

[CHOZO]

For someone who doesn't have any of the power or workshops, what would you recommend they replace so they can play in a ten proxy environment?

[Rock Lee]

For someone who doesn't have any of the power or workshops, what would you recommend they replace so they can play in a ten proxy environment?

I would use my 10 proxies for these:
Ancestral Recall
5 Moxen
Black Lotus
3 Mishra's Workshop

Replace the 4th shop with a 3rd ancient tomb. Run a Gorilla Shaman if you can't run Time Walk.

Or the other option is run Time Walk, and cut to 2 Mishra's Workshop proxies and add another City of Traitors, although I don't advise that.

Also, I would advise asking your TOs if they would consider moving up to 15 proxies. Most events in New England are 15 proxy, and they allow for every configuration under the sun. If they seem hard on the idea, early shops here when transitioning from 10 proxy to 15 often charged 1$ per proxy over 10, which made the stores happy and the players content.

[vartemis]

Congrats on the strong finish!
It's great to see that the naysayers were wrong with Master T.

A couple of questions regarding Inkwell Leviathan tho:

Can you please expound more on running a singleton of this card VS nothing at all?
Its strength against Fish is notable, but if you expect lots or little of Fish in your meta, has your testing shown that it's worth to increase its numbers (lots of Fish) or cut it completely from the MD (little Fish)?
Wouldn't Titan almost always be better in dealing with control/Fish, that is, remove their ability to cast their removal in the first place (and punish them if they ever resolve one on Titan) while protecting it via Master T?
Thing is, I see nearly all of your robots have some nifty ability of their own other than just being beatsticks (BIG beatsticks, that is).
Leviathan somehow shy's away from that trend.

Don't get me wrong, I love Leviathan, I just don't see evident compelling reasons to run it main.

The reasons are simple. Leviathan is the best Turn 1 tinker target. In the early game without tinker it pitches to force, and endgame it ends a standstill. It is strictly your worst robot in the midgame, but will get the job done in a pinch.

Don't forget that, unlike DSC, if he is in your hand, you can thirst him out and weld him in.

j

[Rock Lee]

Don't forget that, unlike DSC, if he is in your hand, you can thirst him out and weld him in.
j

Well this is the case with any robot in hand with Master T. And pitching DSC to Thirst isn't what I would call groundbreaking tech. I was just throwing out why leviathan in deck > DSC in deck, which seemed to be Swordfish's question.

[vartemis]

Don't forget that, unlike DSC, if he is in your hand, you can thirst him out and weld him in.
j

Well this is the case with any robot in hand with Master T. And pitching DSC to Thirst isn't what I would call groundbreaking tech. I was just throwing out why leviathan in deck > DSC in deck, which seemed to be Swordfish's question.

I was refering to thirsting leviathan and being able to weld him in like any other robot, which is something you can't do with DSC to cheat him into play, thereby giving further point that lev>DSC in the deck.  Both DSC and lev can be dropped into play with MT, so they don't gain any points on that.

j

[Stormanimagus]

Hey. Does anyone know the interaction of Uba mask and Welder/Transmuter?

For Example, can I bounce the mask in response to my opponent's main phase after they've drawn and keep them from dropping lands that turn? I realize they can play instants they've just drawn (ex. Ancestral) in response to my transmuting, but then I can transmute and make the 3 cards they just drew RFGed?

If so, I'd seriously consider running Uba Mask in the deck as a hard lock. I'd just like to know the interactions more correctly. Can I bounce Capsule in response to sac trigger and still draw 2?

If I'm right about all these rulings I think I have a pretty dynamite list I'd like to share with all y'alls.

Edit: Actually, I'll just post the list too.

Master wURkshop

Land (16):
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
4 Steam Vents
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Library Of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (24):
1 Black Lotus (0)
1 Lotus Petal (0)
5 Moxen (0)
1 Mana Crypt (0)
1 Sol Ring (1)
1 Mana Vault (1)
4 Chalice Of The Void (XX)
3 Mindlock Orb (3U)
1 Trinisphere (3)
1 Memory Jar (5)
2 Jester’s Cap (4)
3 Uba Mask (4)

Creatures (3):
3 Goblin Welder

Artifact Creatures (6):
4 Master Transmuter (3U)
1 Inkwell Leviathan (7UU)
1 Triskelavus (7)

Instants (9):
1 Ancestral Recall (U)
4 Thirst For Knowledge (2U)
4 Force Of Will (3UU)

Sorceries (2):
1 Time Walk (1U)
1 Tinker (2U)

SB
2 Jester’s Cap
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Triskelion
2 Viashino Heretic
2 Ingot Chewer

[neotrophy]

For Example, can I bounce the mask in response to my opponent's main phase after they've drawn and keep them from dropping lands that turn? I realize they can play instants they've just drawn (ex. Ancestral) in response to my transmuting, but then I can transmute and make the 3 cards they just drew RFGed?

Yes, yes you can. 

If so, I'd seriously consider running Uba Mask in the deck as a hard lock. I'd just like to know the interactions more correctly.

Not a bad move.  It's been done before and Mask is fairly annoying card all by itself for any deck attempting to gain card advantage through drawing cards.

Can I bounce Capsule in response to sac trigger and still draw 2?

No can do.  It's a cost, not a trigger.  Not that I can actually see any capsules in your decklist.  Then again, I missed the memory Jar on first reading.

[Stormanimagus]

For Example, can I bounce the mask in response to my opponent's main phase after they've drawn and keep them from dropping lands that turn? I realize they can play instants they've just drawn (ex. Ancestral) in response to my transmuting, but then I can transmute and make the 3 cards they just drew RFGed?

Yes, yes you can. 

If so, I'd seriously consider running Uba Mask in the deck as a hard lock. I'd just like to know the interactions more correctly.

Not a bad move.  It's been done before and Mask is fairly annoying card all by itself for any deck attempting to gain card advantage through drawing cards.

No can do.  It's a cost, not a trigger.  Not that I can actually see any capsules in your decklist.  Then again, I missed the memory Jar on first reading.

I just updated my list up top. I think Time Vault + Key, while a really cool combo, need more than just Tinker for tutoring. I think those slots are much better used on Jester's Caps and the extra Ancient Tomb.
Can I bounce Capsule in response to sac trigger and still draw 2?

[waywreth]

Looking at the deck that Rock Lee posted, I tried in the 14 person Myriad games event that was held earlier today.  I ended up with a 3-1 record.  I added a Platinum Angel on the side, and a Duplicant to the main, removing one Sundering Titan.  It was a fun deck, but I worry about the combo matchup.

First round - win vs. Fish.  I won the first game due to him not wasting my red source and me able to put a welder into play.  The second game was won via Inkwell, since he had no answers.

Second round - loss vs. Tezz (with Bob's).  Went three games.  First game I think I got one turn before he got key/vault.  Second game I locked him out on the 2nd or third turn with welder, and transmuter.  Third game came down to him having vault in play, and he had key but I didn't draw an answer.

Third round - Mirror match with the decks creator.  Went to three games, and I ended up winning with a single attack by Inkwell and Tinker for a Trisk when he was at 3 and I was at 4 (and he had lethal if he got to untap).

Final round - win vs. Elves.  Another 3 game match - first game was all about the main deck chalice.  I dropped one at 1, FOW'd his artifact destruction and locked him out with another at 3.  2nd game he Natural Order'd out Progenitus.  Third game I was able to get an active welder early and recur Trisk and Platinum Angel a few times, but the real win came when I Jester's Capped and took out Progenitus and Grapeshot leaving only the beatdown option to win.

[Stormanimagus]

After testing my list above on MWS I'm finding that it doesn't consistently enough have the firepower to mow down Fish decks and so I've adopted a more robot-centric approach more like Jeremiah's List. I have, however, included 3 MD Jester's Cap as a sort of Meta choice right now as I think there are a ton of decks out there that are really hurt by it. Here's my most updated list with some card explanations for the SB:

Master wURkshop

Land (16):
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
4 Steam Vents
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Library Of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (20):
1 Black Lotus (0)
5 Moxen (0)
1 Mana Crypt (0)
1 Sol Ring (1)
1 Mana Vault (1)
4 Chalice Of The Void (XX)
1 Courier’s Capsule (1U)
1 Trinisphere (3)
1 Memory Jar (5)
3 Jester’s Cap (4)
1 Mindslaver (6)

Creatures (3):
3 Goblin Welder

Artifact Creatures (9):
4 Master Transmuter (3U)
1 Inkwell Leviathan (7UU)
1 Triskelavus (7)
3 Triskelion (6)

Instants (10):
1 Ancestral Recall (U)
1 Fact or Fiction (3U)
4 Thirst For Knowledge (2U)
4 Force Of Will (3UU)

Sorceries (2):
1 Time Walk (1U)
1 Tinker (2U)

SB
4 Thorn Of Amethyst (Shore Up Combo Matchup)
3 Tangle Wire          (Stops Oath. Even Progenitus Builds. Also good against Goyf. Good Synergy with Transmuter)
4 Red Elemental Blast (Tezz decks. Can come in vs. Combo and Fish as well)
2 Viashino Heretic      (Stax. Tezz. Decks running Darksteel. Mirror)
2 Ingot Chewer          (Decks running Null Rod. Might want to up the count here to 3 and drop a Tangle Wire)

[neotrophy]

Stormanimmagus, I do think that the newer decklist has some definite advantages, but having rediscovered Uba Mask, I'd definitely encourage you to not give up on it too soon.  Uba Mask completely shuts down Mana Drain and it gives strength against any form of card draw.  I think that with testing and experience, it has the potential to be a stronger card than Jester's Cap, and is definitely applicable against a wider variety of decks.  It's much stronger against the fish decks that you say give you so much trouble.  It also, in combination with Transmuter or Welder gives you the same RFG potential (though obviously slower and less targeted).

Uba Mask actually affects the game as it stands, rather than just as it could be.  While Jester's Cap is stronger in vintage over other formats, due to the sparsity of win conditions in decks, the great number of tutors, and the potential to actually cripple a deck, leaving it no way to win, it's still a card that does not actually affect the game state at all.  Jester's Cap requires luck, luck that your opponent hasn't drawn one of their Tendrils, or their Time Vault, or Tezzeret, or whatever.  If they're playing a creature based deck, you cannot take away their ability to win, all you can do is shift some odds around, and you can do nothing to affect what's already happened.

[Stormanimagus]

Stormanimmagus, I do think that the newer decklist has some definite advantages, but having rediscovered Uba Mask, I'd definitely encourage you to not give up on it too soon.  Uba Mask completely shuts down Mana Drain and it gives strength against any form of card draw.  I think that with testing and experience, it has the potential to be a stronger card than Jester's Cap, and is definitely applicable against a wider variety of decks.  It's much stronger against the fish decks that you say give you so much trouble.  It also, in combination with Transmuter or Welder gives you the same RFG potential (though obviously slower and less targeted).

Uba Mask actually affects the game as it stands, rather than just as it could be.  While Jester's Cap is stronger in vintage over other formats, due to the sparsity of win conditions in decks, the great number of tutors, and the potential to actually cripple a deck, leaving it no way to win, it's still a card that does not actually affect the game state at all.  Jester's Cap requires luck, luck that your opponent hasn't drawn one of their Tendrils, or their Time Vault, or Tezzeret, or whatever.  If they're playing a creature based deck, you cannot take away their ability to win, all you can do is shift some odds around, and you can do nothing to affect what's already happened.

I suppose you're right and that I simply led with Mask too many times where I should have waited for my welder or transmuter. Heck, I was stupid enough to play it when my opponent had Welder out and could use the trick on me. THEY were stupid enough NOT to do it, but that's beside the point.

You're right. I shouldn't shy away from a card because it takes a bit more playskill.

So I have this question. IF I added Uba Mask back for Cap should I still relegate some copies of Cap to the SB? If so, what would they replace there?

Also, should the deck run Bazaar of Baghdad? I'm not sure it should as the other card draw power in the form of Thirst should often leave me with cards-in-hand and Bazaar + Mask functions best when you have 0 cards in hand, and simply do no have to discard.

[neotrophy]

I have no idea if I'm right or not.  I just think that Uba Mask is a strong card that deserves more than a passing fling.  Given that in a Master Transmuter deck, you're going to be playing a bunch more instants than the Stax decks that played it in the past, and that you don't have the mana disruption base of those, it may be that Jester's Cap is actually the better card.  But only testing will show that, and I'm asking you as a pioneer of the card in this deck to keep up that testing.

Unfortunately, I don't think that there's space for caps in the sideboard.  I think that at this stage, I would drop one of the Triskellions and play a 3/1 or 2/2 split of Masks and Caps, respectively.  I doubt that it's optimal, but I think it will allow you try the two cards together and get a good feel of which is the right one for the deck.

By the way, the complete lack of basic lands in your build of the deck worries me greatly.  Stifle isn't exactly a widely played card at the moment, but Wasteland is.  Do you find that your coloured mana producing lands tend to survive because you opponent is focusing on workshops, or is it a real problem, rather than just on that I see in my head?  I feel that with 8 coloured mana producing lands and only two colours, there's definitely space for a fetch base with basics.  That would also open up Brainstorm, which can literally become Ancestral Recall under Mask.

[Darkenslight]

Is thewre any potential at all in Jester's Scepter from Coldsnap?  It mills 5, and also gives you some further minor counter ability.  Also, the fact that they lose five permanently (barring Wish/R&D shenanigans) is just gravy.

[deathdealer]

what about the card   in the eye of chaos? with uba mask?

[unicoerner]

Hi,
i think this deck has a hard matchup vs storm combo and other combo decks aswell, becasue it runs so few disruption and the side isn`t designed good vs it, aswell.

What are your thoughts on thisd?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Hi,
i think this deck has a hard matchup vs storm combo and other combo decks aswell, becasue it runs so few disruption and the side isn`t designed good vs it, aswell.

What are your thoughts on thisd?

Combo:
The deck is currently ill-prepared for combo, only having Chalice & Force on the main. However, these in combination with Thorn, Reb, & Jester's Cap on the side is backbreaking.
I consider this matchup poor.

That quote is directly found on page 1. In general slaver variants have never been good against combo but he runs Chalice instead of drains and a singleton Trinisphere which could heavily damage the combo player. Then again this deck doesn't run mana denial so they can just rebuild it all back. In my opinion when facing combo if your opening hand doesn't have 2-of trinisphere, chalice, post-board hate, or a way to cheat titan into play then you'll probably lose. I would say the best way to play this deck is like shop-aggro in that matchup. Drop some fat alongside all the disruption you can and cross your fingers.

Edit: As for Uba Mask it would take an active Welder or Transmuter to really be effective and if you have that you should be winning already. Casting it without them active hurts you just as much since you run TfKs/draw engines of your own, FoW, and you would be savagely hurting future Welders and Transmuters since your fat gets RFGed also. Uba Mask is good in Uba Stax because the deck:

A) Has multiple ways to savagely abuse Uba Mask with Bazaar in addition to obvious Welder tricks.
B) Will usually have an empty hand (or almost) when it drops Uba Mask so it can cast what it RFGs every single turn without consequence.

I mean if you're already at 8+ mana or have Welder/Transmuter active I see no reason to run a win-more card instead of something that can dig you out of bad situations where you don't.

Edit#2: Think of this more like a workshop deck when considering his mana base. Fetchlands don't really help unless you have a way of abusing them (aka a massive draw/tutor engine so that you don't draw into tons of lands, obvious stuff like SDT/brainstorm, or a 3-color manabase that requires fetches for consistancy) and basics get in the way of having both colors. (which this deck sorely needs having only 8 dual sources already) I bet that if you changed the manabase to include fetches and basics you would find yourself getting color screwed more often. Your shops and tombs will likely be tanking the wastelands anyways.

I would also probably stick with Shivan Reef instead of Steam Vents as you'll usually take maybe 1-3 damage from Reef in the course of a game (the obvious exception being games with a resolved Transmuter that you should be winning anyways), but spreading it out over the entire game and deciding when you HAVE to take it and when you can live with just the colorless mana is often benefitial. I can almost garuntee that you'll be paying the 2 life every game to untap the Vents and if Reef averages the same damage or maybe slightly more why open yourself up to targeted Island hate like Choke and Sundering Titan?

[Harlequin]

I played this (or a similar list) for the past few events.

Quoted from the Myriad Event on 2/21:

4x Volcanic Island
4x Mishra's Workshop
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Barbarian Ring
2x Cephalid Coliseum
3x Bazaar of Baghdad

1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault

4x Uba Mask
4x Tangle Wire
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Sphere of Resistance

4x Goblin Welder
3x Master Transmuter

1x Trinisphere
1x Smokestack
1x Karn, Silver Golem
1x Tinker
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Memory Jar
1x Wheel of Fortune

Sideboard
3x Viashino Heretic
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x In the Eyes of Chaos
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Jester's Cap

I really don't know what the problem is.  I can't pinpoint it.  The deck ~has~ everything it needs on paper... but it never seems to be able to assemble any of the moving parts in an event.  At the 3+ events I've tried it in, I have gone mostly X-2 or X-3. 

I have a hunch that it is the manabase, combined with the lack of filtering (outside of bazaar which is only short-term filtering).

[Grand Inquisitor]

Mana base is always a peril for these things, but maybe the idea that it ~has~ everything is the problem?

When I've tried to build my own workshop lists, I always find I try to cram too many things in (probably a bad habit picked up playing blue).  Lack of focus and interdepence are the risks here.

[Purple Hat]

I think the problem harlequin is that in your long list of 1 of's you have very few things that help dodge the "rebuild effect" that is being discussed in the full members section right now.  Your deck has a lot of delay tactics, but few wins.  I think if you're going for bazaars you are better off going for squees, intuitions and possessed portal, rather than uba mask IMO since uba mask reduces your transmuters to "reset an artifact" rather than "cheat an artifact into play, avoid counter spells OR reset an artifact"

[Harlequin]

Well at least conceptually the focus was: Uba Lock.  And every card was validated against that goal... and many cards were cut because "it's just not that good under Uba."  So I wouldn't say that lack of focus was the issue.... but perhapse the focus itself was the issue.  In that even with 7 creatures that can astablish lock, and 4 masks in the deck - It just couldn't reliablably astablish the lock before the game was already over.  Disruption was a big issue as well, manytimes I would lose to a single wasteland, counterspell, or even duress.  

I think the deck had issues with having too much dependants.  The cards themselves were not individually as powerful as other cards that Uba (or stax in general) runs: Null Rod, Thorn, Smokestacks - but the goal was to orchestrate the weaker cards into a greater whole.  I guess at the end of the day, turn 1 null rod is better than turn 2 Transmuter for a lock-based deck.

@ Rebuild effect.  I really disagree with that.  I think of all shop decks this deck is best suited for combating rebuild.  Infact I don't think I ever lost a 'winning' game to rebuild.  Uba I think is ultimate card for fighting the rebuild effect, especially if you have a way to remove Uba from play at instant speed (welder or Master-T).  The main point of failure for the deck was getting off the ground, not staying airbourn.

@ Ways to win.  This is something I did struggle with for a while.  The basic "win" of the deck was to have my opponent concede after explaining they never get a land-drop again.  But outside of that It really only was Karn or infinte turns. 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Well at least conceptually the focus was: Uba Lock.  And every card was validated against that goal... and many cards were cut because "it's just not that good under Uba."  So I wouldn't say that lack of focus was the issue.... but perhapse the focus itself was the issue.  In that even with 7 creatures that can astablish lock, and 4 masks in the deck - It just couldn't reliablably astablish the lock before the game was already over.  Disruption was a big issue as well, manytimes I would lose to a single wasteland, counterspell, or even duress.  

I think the deck had issues with having too much dependants.  The cards themselves were not individually as powerful as other cards that Uba (or stax in general) runs: Null Rod, Thorn, Smokestacks - but the goal was to orchestrate the weaker cards into a greater whole.  I guess at the end of the day, turn 1 null rod is better than turn 2 Transmuter for a lock-based deck.

This sums up my point on running Uba Mask in this deck very well and it is great to see that there is some testing to back it up. Once you cut cards that are bad with Uba Mask all you are left with is Uba Stax and the deck does what it does very well already without dragging in key/vault/top/transmuter/etc. and trying to turn it into slaver.

[wiley]

Is tangle wire really what you want when you increase the number of things that need to tap to have utility (transmuter, coliseum, bazaar, key, vault, jar and to an extent karn)?  It would seem to me that it hampers you just as much as your opponent.

When I play ubastax, I often don't actively seek the uba lock, simply waiting for it to come naturally by playing out soft lock after soft lock.  Perhaps looking at the deck under that philosophy will help to see where the cracks lie.  It might be worth exploring ancient tombs in the deck to power out more of the turn 1 lock components, since you are thinking of playing around with the mana base anyway.

Also, transmuter still works wonderfully with uba, as it means an automatic uba lock.  Cheating new things into play shouldn't be a problem as you should have plenty of mana by that time and counters are no longer a problem thanks to uba lock.  Do note though that even with an instant speed way to switch out uba it will not prevent someone from playing rebuild/recall unless they 'drew' it on your turn.