With Tezzeret dominating, what would it be safe to unrestrict?

[Smmenen]

Dude, your numbers are messed up.   Drains didn't fall by "49%."  There were simply fewer tournaments reported in January then December.   (12 compared to 18)  You are comparing absolute numbers.      If there were 20 tournaments in December, but two in January, by your logic you would say that there was a 90% drop in Mana Drains. 

Then, your comparisons are also messed up.   Workshops didn't lose, they gained from December to January, but by the way you've presented the data, you're making it look like they dropped.   

[Nehptis]

The fact that Vault and Key is so cheap and so easy to set up and it actually wins the game is what is good about the deck.

The games that felt really unfair were the ones where I actually had a Voltaic Key or a Time Vault in my opening hand and could tutor for the other piece and win.  To a player who has been Draining spells and casting Yawgmoth's Will for years and years now that combo actually felt unfair, unfun and actually broken.

the problem is that Time Vault + Voltaic Key is a degenerate combo that in my opinion is more powerful and more efficient than Tendrils of Agony.

True, true, and true!  Vault / Key is an abomination.

I think that if Key and Vault are here to stay the thing to do is have a good plan for beating Key Vault, or build a better Key Vault deck.

Thirdly, people need to play better hate and have a better plan for defeating the deck.  

TIME VAULT IS THE NEW TENDRILS:  Either beat it or join it because it is here to stay.

Exactly, we are faced with a meta of Drain + Vault / Key vs. everything else.  To me that is unacceptable.  I can live with Drain Slaver winning with Robots and Slaver.  I can live with Drain / Painter.  But, Drain / Vault / Key just seems wrong for the format.

I'd still like to see more diversity via unrestrictions.  But, please let's do something about the infinite turn problem that doesn't require players to build Vault-Hate.deck or have a 15 card SB dedicated to beating it.

[desolutionist]

But, please let's do something about the infinite turn problem that doesn't require players to build Vault-Hate.deck or have a 15 card SB dedicated to beating it.

It isn't that good...  There's no way you're going to win a tournament with Vault-Hate.dec either. 

I'd say its safe to unrestrict Brainstorm and Gifts Ungiven. 

[JACO]

Mana Drain is good, but does it really need to be targeted by people who have trouble beating it?

I don't necessarily disagree.  But Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, Gush, and Merchant Scroll were all restricted for being lesser offenders.

And I don't think any of them should have been restricted (except perhaps, for Fact or Fiction).

2) If people had not been little b*tc*es before, crying for the restriction of EVERYTHING that was remotely useful in this format (Trinisphere, Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, Flash, Brainstorm, Gush, etc.), we would have a better format today. Of course Mana Drain is the best now, everything that was competitive has been restricted. Looks like Vintage is "Restrict everything until Mana Drain is the best, then restrict Mana Drain".

I am in the same boat as Gio here. Anyone who has read my posts and/or articles could probably tell that I have never been a fan of restriction of any card, and would much rather have fewer cards on the restricted list.

Because this thread is yet another of the "what if we restricted [or unrestricted] card X," let's take Gio's and my points a bit further. Most of you probably know the Vintage Banned/Restricted list inside out, but click here if you don't. It's generally a list of fast mana, tutors, and other cards that the DCI has recognized (whether correctly or incorrectly) as "degenerate," "unfun," or "format warping." What if we had a format that allowed most of what has recently been restricted to come OFF the restricted list, in the hopes that so many powerful cards would actually balance each other out?

For example, Burning Wish, Gifts Ungiven, Brainstorm, Ponder, Trinisphere (or Balance), Entomb, Gush, Flash, Frantic Search, and Grim Monolith are all relatively powerful (albeit some more than others), but what if they were all unrestricted together? You would have a format of strategies that never have really had a chance to face off with the modern card pool, and I don't believe the format would be much faster. In this hypothetical scenario, the best tutors are already restricted (including Merchant Scroll), so it's not like things would be more incredibly broken than they are now.
- Flash would be playable, but more inconsistent than it was before, due to the lack of Merchant Scroll
- GushBond would be playable, but lack the explosiveness, due to the loss of the ability to reliablly Merchant Scroll up Ancestral Recall, Gush, or Force of Will
- Gifts Ungiven would be playable, but have lots of clunky and frankly bad hands, due to the loss of Merchant Scroll
- Workshop would be rejuvenated with the unrestriction of either Trinisphere or Balance, and would probably help keep the explosive decks in check
- Worldorger Dragon might actually be a viable strategy again, even in the face of the best hate cards printed today, with the unrestriction of Entomb, but this probably wouldn't be overpowered compared to the rest of Vintage
- Burning Wish isn't even better than Grim Tutor, and it butchers your sideboard, but it would provide flexibility for those to wanted to play with it, and at the same time wouldn't be that strong without the 4x Lion's Eye Diamonds around any more
- Frantic Search is actually card disadvantage, but we know that it makes up for this with the hope of parlaying it's interaction with Tolarian Academy to generate tempo and mana. This still wouldn't make Academy extremely powerful as a deck in the face modern marvels like TPS, GushBond, Gifts, Tezzeret, Painter, etc.
- Grim Monolith just isn't that broken, and while it might make Belcher a better deck, I'm all for people stuffing relatively bad cards in their deck


Some of you would probably complain just as much as you always have (and will continue to do so), but just let the above sink in and convince me why that wouldn't be an awesome format. Vintage has always been a format where broken things happen, and when you allow the format to balance itself out I think you'll see it's even more incredible.

[LordHomerCat]

I would be pretty intrigued to play that format JACO, seriously.  Seeing the interaction of Flash, Trinistax, Gifts, GAT, and Burning Wish combo would be pretty interesting, not to mention things like Painter and Fish which exist today.

I'm curious though, I mean I know merchant scroll is powerful, but you think that it is so good it should be restricted in a format where 3sphere and friends are legal?  I played a lot of GAT and was able to win most of my workshop matches by the end, but I don't think you stand much chance against 3sphere.  Additionally, MD Gifts vs. GAT would be really exciting, but you can't build a Gifts deck anywhere close to that power level without Scroll.  If you're gonna make all that other stuff legal, is Scroll really too good there?

[Smmenen]

Mana Drain is good, but does it really need to be targeted by people who have trouble beating it?

I don't necessarily disagree.  But Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, Gush, and Merchant Scroll were all restricted for being lesser offenders.

And I don't think any of them should have been restricted (except perhaps, for Fact or Fiction).

Why is Fact worse than Merchant Scroll?

I will just register my historical opposition and criticism to most of the restrictions you cite.   

[Purple Hat]

I actually really wonder what the restricted list would end up looking like if we started over from scratch.

We'd probably rapidly come to the conclusion that the following cards needed to be restricted:
Moxes
Lotus
Will
Ancestral
Time walk
Bargain
Tinker
Strip mine


and some large number of the cards currently on the list, like the draw 7's, necropotence and academy would probably follow pretty quickly.  But I really do wonder how far we'd get before we decided we had a reasonable format.  I don't think we'd get anywhere near the current restricted list, but I wonder what would end up being restricted in a format that started with the current card pool, no restrictions, and built out from there.  I think we'd end up with some pretty strange restrictions/nonrestrictions.  Maybe it turns out that draw 7's don't need to be restricted as long as you restrict all the tutors I kinda doubt it, but it'd be interesting to see.

[M.Solymossy]

I was trying not to comment on this thread, because I feel it's ridiculous to conclude that Mana Drain shouldl be restricted.   The card itself is not degenerate.  I can count the times I've burned or done nothing of substance with Mana Drain more than I can count the times It's fueled a Thirst, Gifts, or Fact or Fiction, and I've even won events with Drains.   Dark Ritual decks beat Drain decks, as do decks like Urbana Fish, Bug Fish, or a well-played Stax deck (see TK).   

The fact is, everyone loses to a deck they don't personally play, and they want it restricted so that their pet deck gets better.   

Shop players want Mana Drain restricted so that they can play their spells freely, without worrying about punishment.  Aggro players want drain restricted because mana draining their precious tarmogoyf allows the Tezzeret deck to cast tinker.   

If you don't like Key/Vault, play Tezzeret yourself until you're comfortable in the mirror, or play something that beats Tezzeret.  If you're not winning or top8ing tournaments consistantly, don't blame "the brokenness of key/vault" and start seeing what you can do to beat it.

[JACO]

Mana Drain is good, but does it really need to be targeted by people who have trouble beating it?

I don't necessarily disagree.  But Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, Gush, and Merchant Scroll were all restricted for being lesser offenders.

And I don't think any of them should have been restricted (except perhaps, for Fact or Fiction).

Why is Fact worse than Merchant Scroll?

I will just register my historical opposition and criticism to most of the restrictions you cite.

By 'worse' I'll take it you mean stronger (or worse for the environment). I am aware we see this issue differently (just as we probably do on Library of Alexandria). I simply think the card advantage, as well as the depth it digs, makes Fact an incredibly strong card without drawback. It's a much better card than Thirst for Knowledge (and I would argue better than Windfall in most cases), and we've never seen it unrestricted during what I would call the modern Vintage deckbuilding era. I am not super opposed to it being unrestricted, but in my mind's eye I can see it being a massive problem.

I would be pretty intrigued to play that format JACO, seriously.  Seeing the interaction of Flash, Trinistax, Gifts, GAT, and Burning Wish combo would be pretty interesting, not to mention things like Painter and Fish which exist today.

I'm curious though, I mean I know merchant scroll is powerful, but you think that it is so good it should be restricted in a format where 3sphere and friends are legal?  I played a lot of GAT and was able to win most of my workshop matches by the end, but I don't think you stand much chance against 3sphere.  Additionally, MD Gifts vs. GAT would be really exciting, but you can't build a Gifts deck anywhere close to that power level without Scroll.  If you're gonna make all that other stuff legal, is Scroll really too good there?

Jimmy, that's exactly my (and Gio's) point. The interaction and balance that would be created with all of the strong yet relatively even powered strategies, legal together at the same time, is what would make it interesting, and let Vintage players have even more options and lines of play to counteract their opponent's game plan. Can you imagine how strong Painter would be in that environment, and to naturally help combat things like Flash and Gifts? Main decking Red Elemental Blast would be the Nutty McFlush.

I personally don't have a problem with Merchant Scroll, but if you limit it to a single copy I believe it actually slows down Vintage, makes Blue-centric strategies less consistent or dominant, and falls in line with the DCI's history of restricting the best of the Tutors. It's a concession I would make that would slow decks like Flash, GushBond, and Gifts. Trinisphere would shut down a lot of fast strategies, making people adjust their decks and card choices, but if Trinisphere turned out to be too broken or too objectionable I would be all for the unrestriction of Balance instead.

I used to fear Balance as a 4-of because of how broken it can be in specific situations, but I don't really think it's that much more broken or undercosted than Mind Twist, Swords to Plowshares, and 'best of breed' cards of that ilk (which to me shouldn't be restricted, and don't remotely approach the power of Tinker, Necropotence, Demonic Tutor, or Yawgmoth's Will). Balance can create massive tempo and card advantage in certain scenarios, but it really is a card you have to build your whole deck around to truly break it. You would see a LOT of people experiment with Balance  in different shells, and probably even win some tournaments, but ultimately I think you would actually see more copies in people's sideboards to leverage against aggro and aggro-control strategies.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

JACO for president.

[Malkizid]

Let me start by saying that I am one of the people who plays the Time Vault/Voltaic Key Tez deck.  And while I do think it is the best deck right now, there are many cards that can stop it.  The problem is that people just don't seem to be playing them.  I can think of at least 8 cards, that would really give the Tez deck trouble.  These cards are Vintage playables, and I haven't seen them played yet in the Time Vault era.  I really don't care to list them because I enjoy the success I have been having with the Tez deck.  Besides, these cards have been played in the past, and are no secret.   

That's just my 2 cents on this thread.  What I really wanted to respond to is what Jaco and Co. were talking about.  I have only been playing competitive Vintage since 2006.  And the idea of a Vintage rebirth, via mass unrestrictions, is exciting to me.  There are many decks and archetypes that I missed out on.  Personally I regret not playing Gush when it was recently unrestricted.  At the time I was playing only Workshop strategies.  When I finally decided to put the Gush deck together, it became re-restricted before the next tournament.  There are other things I never got to explore because for me, they have always been restricted.   

All this being said I think the metagame is fine right now.  We just need to give it a little more time to evolve.  There are ways of dealing with the Tez deck, that don't involve restricting Mana Drain or Thirst for Knowledge. 

But, if it does prove to be too powerful to handle.  I would be in favor of a figurative reset of the restricted list.  Perhaps this would even bring people back into Vintage?  Some people may have quit playing, because some of their favorite cards or decks were no longer playable?  Perhaps this would also bring some new Vintage players in?  I know some people have been concerned with declining numbers in attendance.  Maybe I am wrong and 95% of the restricted list is where it belongs.  But personally I would be excited by the idea of unrestricting everything that doesn't obviously belong on the restricted list.  And then re-restricting from there. 

[reaperbong]

I was trying not to comment on this thread, because I feel it's ridiculous to conclude that Mana Drain shouldl be restricted.   The card itself is not degenerate.  I can count the times I've burned or done nothing of substance with Mana Drain more than I can count the times It's fueled a Thirst, Gifts, or Fact or Fiction, and I've even won events with Drains.   Dark Ritual decks beat Drain decks, as do decks like Urbana Fish, Bug Fish, or a well-played Stax deck (see TK).   

The fact is, everyone loses to a deck they don't personally play, and they want it restricted so that their pet deck gets better.   

Shop players want Mana Drain restricted so that they can play their spells freely, without worrying about punishment.  Aggro players want drain restricted because mana draining their precious tarmogoyf allows the Tezzeret deck to cast tinker.   

If you don't like Key/Vault, play Tezzeret yourself until you're comfortable in the mirror, or play something that beats Tezzeret.  If you're not winning or top8ing tournaments consistantly, don't blame "the brokenness of key/vault" and start seeing what you can do to beat it.

co-sign 100% Thank you for this post.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Let me start by saying that I am one of the people who plays the Time Vault/Voltaic Key Tez deck.  And while I do think it is the best deck right now, there are many cards that can stop it.  The problem is that people just don't seem to be playing them.  I can think of at least 8 cards, that would really give the Tez deck trouble.  These cards are Vintage playables, and I haven't seen them played yet in the Time Vault era.  I really don't care to list them because I enjoy the success I have been having with the Tez deck.  Besides, these cards have been played in the past, and are no secret.   

That's just my 2 cents on this thread.  What I really wanted to respond to is what Jaco and Co. were talking about.  I have only been playing competitive Vintage since 2006.  And the idea of a Vintage rebirth, via mass unrestrictions, is exciting to me.  There are many decks and archetypes that I missed out on.  Personally I regret not playing Gush when it was recently unrestricted.  At the time I was playing only Workshop strategies.  When I finally decided to put the Gush deck together, it became re-restricted before the next tournament.  There are other things I never got to explore because for me, they have always been restricted.   

All this being said I think the metagame is fine right now.  We just need to give it a little more time to evolve.  There are ways of dealing with the Tez deck, that don't involve restricting Mana Drain or Thirst for Knowledge. 

But, if it does prove to be too powerful to handle.  I would be in favor of a figurative reset of the restricted list.  Perhaps this would even bring people back into Vintage?  Some people may have quit playing, because some of their favorite cards or decks were no longer playable?  Perhaps this would also bring some new Vintage players in?  I know some people have been concerned with declining numbers in attendance.  Maybe I am wrong and 95% of the restricted list is where it belongs.  But personally I would be excited by the idea of unrestricting everything that doesn't obviously belong on the restricted list.  And then re-restricting from there. 

Pithing Needle, Null Rod, and artifact destruction are the only cards that actually stop the combo directly of key/vault. This isn't like dragon where any bounce, any creature hate, any graveyard hate, pithing needle, strip/waste, any enchantment hate, player shroud, (like true believer), stifle and trickbind can stop the combo. Painter/stone is also stopped by Needle, Rob, and artifact hate. However, it also falls to any creature removal, proper elemental blasts, player shroud, library refresher(like krosan reclamation and gaea's blessing). Finally storm is stopped by stifle, trickbind, arcane lab/rule of law, player shroud, orim's chant, abeyance, and any decent combination of lesser general hate(such as stax lock pieces or fish lock pieces). The bottom line is all those combos win the game but only 1 of them is cheap(can come out of nowhere off just basic land drops), 2-card(plenty of deck space for draw, tutors, and protection), colorless(aka any deck with tutors could run it), savagely resistant to hate (2/3 of the ways to stop it can just be bounced->win and the last just moves it to the graveyard for will/welder/regrowth/etc.), and just flat out nuts. Forgive me if I've missed something that physically stops the combo itself other than what I've listed but I mean restricting drains just moves the combo into ritual->tutor->vault/key->take all the time in the world to build up lethal tendrils.

The best way I can describe it is that key/vault is yawgmoth's bargain that costs no life and 2 less black mana. I think we can all agree 6 mana for 15+cards is broken. Well here is 4 mana for 50 cards how can that possibly be healthy? The problem is that restricting it does nothing and I seriously think that drain decks are doing so well at the moment solely because they are the only decks running this (or at least the main decks running it if anyone else runs it). Its only a matter of time until people start coming up with ritual decks to abuse this combo (and with brilliant deckbuilders here on TMD it may be a short matter of time) and then we're really in trouble. Then all that would literally be left is vault/key decks and 4xRod/4xPithing/4xCotV/10+instant speed artifact kill.deck. The fact that the combo fits into so many decks may keep the metagame diverse in terms of the other 56-58 cards in the deck but it will end up being worse than Will and plenty of people think that Will should be banned.

[Neonico]

There is wsomehitng to add about blue dominance in vintage. If you analyse closely every format metagame, you will see a strong blue dominance in any format.

Vintage : Pre mirrodin : Keeper, BBS, Post Mirrodin, if you exclude the 4Trini era, the dominant decks have been : Slaver, Meandeck Gifts, Drain tendrils, painter, GaT, Flash.. If you add all combo decks such as pitch long and TPS, or Oath (monoU deck with Green combo finish), all some U control or combo archetypes.

Extended : Pre rotation : NLU, Tog etc.... Post rotation : MonoU wizards

Standart for the past seasons : Reveillark and faeries pre rotation, Faeries pos rotation

Legacy : Ridiculously dominated by Threshold

Any of the formats we can play are dominated by blue decks, simply because blue cards are ridiculous.
Instead of Ban/restrict, isn't the color balance the main problem in magic ?

[Nehptis]

If you don't like Key/Vault, play Tezzeret yourself until you're comfortable in the mirror, or play something that beats Tezzeret.  If you're not winning or top8ing tournaments consistantly, don't blame "the brokenness of key/vault" and start seeing what you can do to beat it.

But, how is what you are proposing any different than what I keep repeating?  Which is, we are very close to, if not already in, a meta game of drain / Key / vault vs. ANTI - drain / key / vault.  That is not diversity.  And when this occurs we need to look at what can be done to bring diversity back to the format.  In this case, there are proposals for Restrictions, Unrestrictions, etc.

[dicemanx]

The interaction and balance that would be created with all of the strong yet relatively even powered strategies, legal together at the same time, is what would make it interesting, and let Vintage players have even more options

Jason, I agree that the format would be "interesting" in the sense that immediately following such mass restrictions plenty of archetypes would become contenders. The problem is that it would likely turn the format into blackjack with an even greater emphasis on the opening 7, and it would inevitably produce a winner out of all of the degeneracy leading us right back to the exact same "problem". Specifically I would argue that we should never allow the return of Trinisphere, Flash, and Entomb - it was the fact that they reduced quality of play that landed them on the restricted list, not because of any format dominance.

Now, if you are willing to accept a dynamic B&R list, in which cards get added and removed periodically without attempting to steer the list towards some non-existent "ideal" state, then I would be all for that suggestion as an experiment - briefly bring back the broken toys, with the anticipation that they *will* be taken away again (some of them anyways) after a short period of time.

Nevertheless, before we consider any B&R action, I'd like to see more evidence that there is a problem in the first place. It is entirely possible that this Tezzeret dominance stems from a self-fulfilling prophecy - strong players anticipated that Mana Drain strategies would be dominant, so they decided to play Mana Drain strategies, so Mana Drain strategies are naturally dominant. Furthermore, stronger players seem to gravitate towards control archetypes, and unless there is an outstanding non-control strategy to tempt them away, the stronger players will stick with that preference.

I find it paradoxical that we take Brainstorm and Scroll away without really touching any of the archetypes aside from Long combo (Fish is affected but one would like to think that the loss of Brainstorm should have more impact on control than aggro-control), and yet a Mana Drain deck becomes even more "dominant". Is this really due to the power of two singletons in a deck (Vault + Key)?

Quote from: Akuma on Yesterday at 10:15:18 AM

2) If people had not been little b*tc*es before, crying for the restriction of EVERYTHING that was remotely useful in this format (Trinisphere, Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, Flash, Brainstorm, Gush, etc.), we would have a better format today. Of course Mana Drain is the best now, everything that was competitive has been restricted. Looks like Vintage is "Restrict everything until Mana Drain is the best, then restrict Mana Drain".

With all due respect, you should turn it down a notch. What you call "b*tching" I call discussion concerning the welfare of the format to maximize the happiness of as many vintage players as possible. It's really becoming a pet peeve to see a handful of people coming onto a thread discussing the health of the format and start chewing out those wanting to engage in serious discussion, accusing them of whining and b*tching; posts like yours are the very reason why B&R discussions have been so problematic in the past. If I recall correctly you have shown displeasure with the format at every turn over the past 3-4 years, despite the fact that the format through all of the changes has been pretty varied and interesting and exciting, even with Gush and Flash around (which didn't exist for long, rightfully so, once people optimized the archetypes utilizing those cards and it was becoming a little stale).

[Tha Gunslinga]

I feel it's ridiculous to conclude that Mana Drain shouldl be restricted

Everyone thought Brainstorm would never be restricted too.

I can count the times I've burned or done nothing of substance with Mana Drain

Man, this one time I had YawgWill in my opening hand, and it didn't do ANYTHING!

more than I can count the times It's fueled a Thirst, Gifts, or Fact or Fiction, and I've even won events with Drains.

I'm pretty sure most people use the Drain mana more often than not, and I'm pretty sure you have too.  Drain is clearly miles over the power curve.  Wizards quit printing COUNTERSPELL; you really think Drain is "fair?"

  Dark Ritual decks beat Drain decks, as do decks like Urbana Fish, Bug Fish, or a well-played Stax deck (see TK).

No they don't.  No one is top-8ing with Rituals.  My Drain deck crushed the last few Ritual decks I faced.  URBana Fish is years obsolete.  BUG Fish isn't showing up anywhere.  Drains can beat Stax fairly easily too.  The fact that TOMMY FUCKING KOLOWITH does well with Stax is not indicative of Stax beating Drains, it's indicative of Tommy Kolowith beating Tezzeret.  Drain and Tez are not the same.

The fact is, everyone loses to a deck they don't personally play, and they want it restricted so that their pet deck gets better.

Your pet deck is currently Tezzeret.  Half the people in this thread play Tez.  Should I discount all their opinions as biased, the way you're discounting mine?

and they want it restricted so that their pet deck gets better.  

Um, I'm pretty sure my pet deck crushes Tez.  4 REBS and 2 Welders have a way of doing that.

Shop players want Mana Drain restricted so that they can play their spells freely, without worrying about punishment.  Aggro players want drain restricted because mana draining their precious tarmogoyf allows the Tezzeret deck to cast tinker.

A fair playing field?  Whatever would blue mages do?

If you don't like Key/Vault, play Tezzeret yourself until you're comfortable in the mirror

If you don't like them, join them?  So you want EVERYONE to play that deck now?  Will THAT prove to people that Drains are dominant, when top 8s are 32 Drains and 8 Time Vaults?

If you're not winning or top8ing tournaments consistantly, don't blame "the brokenness of key/vault" and start seeing what you can do to beat it.

No problems here, hon.

[Purple Hat]

more than I can count the times It's fueled a Thirst, Gifts, or Fact or Fiction, and I've even won events with Drains.

I'm pretty sure most people use the Drain mana more often than not, and I'm pretty sure you have too.  Drain is clearly miles over the power curve.  Wizards quit printing COUNTERSPELL; you really think Drain is "fair?"

When did we start playing Standard around here?  Why the heck would we care what wizards is currently printing?


EDIT:  JACO is totally right by the way

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

@dicemanx: Do you think if entomb was unrestricted it would really be that broken? I agree with keeping trinisphere restricted and flash should only come off if it was proven the deck wouldn't be good enough to warrant restriction. However, I don't really see entomb being busted enough that it would be mass played in 4-ofs or push a deck over the top. What are your thoughts?

[dicemanx]

@dicemanx: Do you think if entomb was unrestricted it would really be that broken? I agree with keeping trinisphere restricted and flash should only come off if it was proven the deck wouldn't be good enough to warrant restriction. However, I don't really see entomb being busted enough that it would be mass played in 4-ofs or push a deck over the top. What are your thoughts?

The term "broken" is too ambiguous. Entomb will hardly make WGD dominant, but it will create coin-flip situations based on how ridiculously easy and rapidly it is to pull off the Entomb-Animate combo. Keeping Entomb restricted is based on the same reason to keep Trinisphere or Flash restricted.

Your post suggests that you believe format dominance is the only criterion for restriction, but we need to keep in mind that game quality is an important consideration too (I equate degree of game quality with the degree to which playskill dominates over luck; heavy dependency on the opening 7 lowers that degree considerably). It is possible, for instance, to have format diversity, but at the same time have low average game quality to the extent that the format becomes "unfun". 

[M.Solymossy]

I find it paradoxical that we take Brainstorm and Scroll away without really touching any of the archetypes aside from Long combo (Fish is affected but one would like to think that the loss of Brainstorm should have more impact on control than aggro-control), and yet a Mana Drain deck becomes even more "dominant". Is this really due to the power of two singletons in a deck (Vault + Key)?

I wholeheartedly agree.

I won a tournament with UBR Drain Tendrils, I top8ed Vintage Champs with UB Drain Tendrils, and then I made took 2nd at another tournament with UBG Drain Tendrils.   Jimmy McCarthy top8ed a couple tournaments before Vintage Champs with Slaver, and then obviously did well with it at Champs.  Tommy Kolowith prior to Tezzeret had success with his various blue-based control strategies that really brought Glen-Elendra Archmage to the Vintage spotlight.   Sure, all these people have played Key/Vault and won a tournament or two with it, but if you took away key/vault, we will just go back to those strategies. 

However, if you take away Drain, I promise youJimmy, Tommy and I all move to Dark Ritual strategies, without any real control viable to stop the deck.


@ Ben:  I believe Mana Drain is just as fair as Dark Ritual, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, and Force of Will. 

Also, if you think Key/Vault is too degenerate, isn't Painter/Grindstone.  It actually win's the game, as opposed to just taking turns until you find (and hopefully resolve) the win.

[oneofchaos]

I hope to god if drain is restricted, shops and rituals feel the wrath of the DCI also.  Even a civil engineer will tell you if you remove one of the key pillars of the foundation, the structure will crumble.  Restricting drain would be a terrible idea as suddenly it's shops vs rituals.  Also, if you restrict drains, New England would explode.  Twice.

[dicemanx]

I would always fight to keep Mana Drain, Dark Ritual, Mishra's Workshop, and Bazaar of Baghdad unrestricted in the format, even if they were part of a dominant strategy. These cards enable a huge number of strategies - Workshops enable a whole host of archetypes (Stax, Shop-Aggro, MUD and all the variants of these three), as do Mana Drain strategies (too numerous to mention) and Ritual-fueled strategies (again, too numerous to mention). While Bazaar of Baghdad has fallen off the radar when it comes to restriction considerations, it also gives rise to many archetypes.

If any one archetype gets out of control I would always propose to go after the elements other than those listed above. I'm just not convinced that this latest iteration of a Drain deck is positioned better than any prior Drain deck that had Brainstorm and/or Scroll as tools. It just doesn't "feel" like it should be as dominant as the numbers suggest, again maybe because the "dominance" was a prophecy fulfilled.

[Evergreen]

While I feel this thread has been quite productive thus far, I cannot believe that some have suggested the un-restriction of Balance.  Balance is one of the most powerful cards ever printed, FAR better than Gush, Fact, Gifts, Flash, Brainstorm, 3sphere etc.  You can make a reasonable argument that most of those cards could be safely unrestricted (although I haven't decided if I actually want to see this happen) but Balance is closer to Yawgmoth's Will power-wise than it is to something like Gush.  I could be wrong, but I can't see how un-restricting Balance would be anything but a colossal mistake, or how anyone who has ever had 5 color stax resolve a Balance against them would disagree.

Also un-restricting Strip Mine seems like a pretty terrible idea.

[dicemanx]

While I feel this thread has been quite productive thus far, I cannot believe that some have suggested the un-restriction of Balance.  Balance is one of the most powerful cards ever printed, FAR better than Gush, Fact, Gifts, Flash, Brainstorm, 3sphere etc.  You can make a reasonable argument that most of those cards could be safely unrestricted (although I haven't decided if I actually want to see this happen) but Balance is closer to Yawgmoth's Will power-wise than it is to something like Gush.  I could be wrong, but I can't see how un-restricting Balance would be anything but a colossal mistake, or how anyone who has ever had 5 color stax resolve a Balance against them would disagree.

Also un-restricting Strip Mine seems like a pretty terrible idea.

Comparing "power levels" of cards is meaningless outside the context of the decks themselves. To state that Balance is "more powerful" than Gush or Gifts is a non-argument without outlining how you quantify and compare power levels.

Balance fundamentally is a parity card. To break parity, some investment is required (meaning: useful non-creature artifacts have to resolve first). Balance in fact is part of a strategy antithetical to that of most Mana Drain archetypes, which typically focus on building card advantage. It would therefore be quite interesting to see whether Balance would be sufficient to making 5CWorkshop archetypes on par with or more powerful than Tezzeret decks.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I find it paradoxical that we take Brainstorm and Scroll away without really touching any of the archetypes aside from Long combo (Fish is affected but one would like to think that the loss of Brainstorm should have more impact on control than aggro-control), and yet a Mana Drain deck becomes even more "dominant". Is this really due to the power of two singletons in a deck (Vault + Key)?

I wholeheartedly agree.

I won a tournament with UBR Drain Tendrils, I top8ed Vintage Champs with UB Drain Tendrils, and then I made took 2nd at another tournament with UBG Drain Tendrils.   Jimmy McCarthy top8ed a couple tournaments before Vintage Champs with Slaver, and then obviously did well with it at Champs.  Tommy Kolowith prior to Tezzeret had success with his various blue-based control strategies that really brought Glen-Elendra Archmage to the Vintage spotlight.   Sure, all these people have played Key/Vault and won a tournament or two with it, but if you took away key/vault, we will just go back to those strategies. 

However, if you take away Drain, I promise youJimmy, Tommy and I all move to Dark Ritual strategies, without any real control viable to stop the deck.


@ Ben:  I believe Mana Drain is just as fair as Dark Ritual, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, and Force of Will. 

Also, if you think Key/Vault is too degenerate, isn't Painter/Grindstone.  It actually win's the game, as opposed to just taking turns until you find (and hopefully resolve) the win.

Well I think that there is a huge difference between painter/stone and key/vault as I put it here:

Let me start by saying that I am one of the people who plays the Time Vault/Voltaic Key Tez deck.  And while I do think it is the best deck right now, there are many cards that can stop it.  The problem is that people just don't seem to be playing them.  I can think of at least 8 cards, that would really give the Tez deck trouble.  These cards are Vintage playables, and I haven't seen them played yet in the Time Vault era.  I really don't care to list them because I enjoy the success I have been having with the Tez deck.  Besides, these cards have been played in the past, and are no secret.   

That's just my 2 cents on this thread.  What I really wanted to respond to is what Jaco and Co. were talking about.  I have only been playing competitive Vintage since 2006.  And the idea of a Vintage rebirth, via mass unrestrictions, is exciting to me.  There are many decks and archetypes that I missed out on.  Personally I regret not playing Gush when it was recently unrestricted.  At the time I was playing only Workshop strategies.  When I finally decided to put the Gush deck together, it became re-restricted before the next tournament.  There are other things I never got to explore because for me, they have always been restricted.   

All this being said I think the metagame is fine right now.  We just need to give it a little more time to evolve.  There are ways of dealing with the Tez deck, that don't involve restricting Mana Drain or Thirst for Knowledge. 

But, if it does prove to be too powerful to handle.  I would be in favor of a figurative reset of the restricted list.  Perhaps this would even bring people back into Vintage?  Some people may have quit playing, because some of their favorite cards or decks were no longer playable?  Perhaps this would also bring some new Vintage players in?  I know some people have been concerned with declining numbers in attendance.  Maybe I am wrong and 95% of the restricted list is where it belongs.  But personally I would be excited by the idea of unrestricting everything that doesn't obviously belong on the restricted list.  And then re-restricting from there. 

Pithing Needle, Null Rod, and artifact destruction are the only cards that actually stop the combo directly of key/vault. This isn't like dragon where any bounce, any creature hate, any graveyard hate, pithing needle, strip/waste, any enchantment hate, player shroud, (like true believer), stifle and trickbind can stop the combo. Painter/stone is also stopped by Needle, Rob, and artifact hate. However, it also falls to any creature removal, proper elemental blasts, player shroud, library refresher(like krosan reclamation and gaea's blessing). Finally storm is stopped by stifle, trickbind, arcane lab/rule of law, player shroud, orim's chant, abeyance, and any decent combination of lesser general hate(such as stax lock pieces or fish lock pieces). The bottom line is all those combos win the game but only 1 of them is cheap(can come out of nowhere off just basic land drops), 2-card(plenty of deck space for draw, tutors, and protection), colorless(aka any deck with tutors could run it), savagely resistant to hate (2/3 of the ways to stop it can just be bounced->win and the last just moves it to the graveyard for will/welder/regrowth/etc.), and just flat out nuts. Forgive me if I've missed something that physically stops the combo itself other than what I've listed but I mean restricting drains just moves the combo into ritual->tutor->vault/key->take all the time in the world to build up lethal tendrils.

The best way I can describe it is that key/vault is yawgmoth's bargain that costs no life and 2 less black mana. I think we can all agree 6 mana for 15+cards is broken. Well here is 4 mana for 50 cards how can that possibly be healthy? The problem is that restricting it does nothing and I seriously think that drain decks are doing so well at the moment solely because they are the only decks running this (or at least the main decks running it if anyone else runs it). Its only a matter of time until people start coming up with ritual decks to abuse this combo (and with brilliant deckbuilders here on TMD it may be a short matter of time) and then we're really in trouble. Then all that would literally be left is vault/key decks and 4xRod/4xPithing/4xCotV/10+instant speed artifact kill.deck. The fact that the combo fits into so many decks may keep the metagame diverse in terms of the other 56-58 cards in the deck but it will end up being worse than Will and plenty of people think that Will should be banned.

Key/vault isn't a win condition but its like bargain on crack. At least you have to set up yawgmoth's will. This is just "oops I win". You basically have 40+turns to goldfish your opponent. Any deck that can't win in 40 turns should probably be remade. I mean you should be able to seriously run tarpan as a win condition with this just to humiliate your opponent, and the deck would still be almost as good. This is beside the point anyways since any deck that can assemble key/vault likely has a good tutor base and can also win with tez/DSC/tendrils/etw if you focus too much on stopping just the key/vault. In my opinion unrestricting cards just give key/vault more ways of assembling itself, so we should ban time vault and start unrestricting cards for more diversity.

Edit: What I meant by will needing to be set up is it usually takes a full grip or late game to win with will. Key/vault just comes down the moment you're ready.

[arctic79]

There is no reason to ban or restrict mana drain.  It can easily be played around, and decks built around it can easily be disrupted.  A lot of times the Drain player ends up burning or wasting a drain on a low CC spell to prevent the opponent from winning, Hell I've drained a lotus before, a one for one that gained me nothing other than a few more turns.  

Of the current crop of decks running around I would say that Vault is the next banning.  I love the deck but I feel the same as someone mentioned earlier, it feels unfair sometimes.  

I think Jaco is on to something with the unrestriction of cards, sure a lot of crazy decks would come back but they are all nuts enough to be competitive against each other. A new B/R list from the ground up is something I would support.

[Akuma]

With all due respect, you should turn it down a notch. What you call "b*tching" I call discussion concerning the welfare of the format to maximize the happiness of as many vintage players as possible. It's really becoming a pet peeve to see a handful of people coming onto a thread discussing the health of the format and start chewing out those wanting to engage in serious discussion, accusing them of whining and b*tching; posts like yours are the very reason why B&R discussions have been so problematic in the past. If I recall correctly you have shown displeasure with the format at every turn over the past 3-4 years, despite the fact that the format through all of the changes has been pretty varied and interesting and exciting, even with Gush and Flash around (which didn't exist for long, rightfully so, once people optimized the archetypes utilizing those cards and it was becoming a little stale).

I don't consider discussions on the welfare of the format b*tch*ng, I consider the advocation for restriction of whatever every 3-4 months b*tch*ng. I can't see how you can consider this type of discussion constructive, this type of thread comes up every 2 weeks, "What should be restrict to fix the format? blah, blah" or "Why is there no diversity?". Posts like mine are not the reason B&R discussions have been problematic in the past, the REASON B&R discussions are problematic is that there is no objectivity here. With all due respect, the tournament data should be consulted when restricting something, not my personal likes and dislikes or yours or some other persons "gut" feeling. Gush decks are 25% of the metagame, how is that a problem. Trinisphere decks are 10% of Top 8 and are not even considered the best deck, how was that a problem. Just look at the way the banned lists are generally handled in Type 2 and Extended, that is all I want for Vintage (and Legacy).

Also, you actually are recalling incorrectly, I have not shown displeasure with this format over the past 3-4 years, I have shown displeasure with this format for approximately 7 months. I have always been a staunch supporter of Vintage in my area, I have been playing Vintage avidly for over ten years, but have been extremely displeased with Vintage since June 20th. I have the same position JACO has, I'm just not as calm as he is.

I don't understand how the Gush/Flash era can be considered stale either. We had twice as much variety as we do now and a very dynamic metagame (consult the first half of Steve's 2008 Year in Review at WotC site). The stint of about 8 or so years of Keeper/The Deck, now that was stale.

[kalisia]

While I feel this thread has been quite productive thus far, I cannot believe that some have suggested the un-restriction of Balance.  Balance is one of the most powerful cards ever printed, FAR better than Gush, Fact, Gifts, Flash, Brainstorm, 3sphere etc.  You can make a reasonable argument that most of those cards could be safely unrestricted (although I haven't decided if I actually want to see this happen) but Balance is closer to Yawgmoth's Will power-wise than it is to something like Gush.  I could be wrong, but I can't see how un-restricting Balance would be anything but a colossal mistake, or how anyone who has ever had 5 color stax resolve a Balance against them would disagree.

I completely agree with dicemanx : Balance is not enough broken, it's a parity card, it doesn't win you games. At the era of Gift.decks, Gifts Ungiven was broken , because when it was solved, you were winning immediatly.

[dicemanx]

I don't consider discussions on the welfare of the format b*tch*ng, I consider the advocation for restriction of whatever every 3-4 months b*tch*ng. I can't see how you can consider this type of discussion constructive, this type of thread comes up every 2 weeks, "What should be restrict to fix the format? blah, blah" or "Why is there no diversity?".

Players will inevitably make suggestions without evidence, which either prompts discussion or is deservedly ignored. This has happened a number of times already in this thread.

Posts like mine are not the reason B&R discussions have been problematic in the past, the REASON B&R discussions are problematic is that there is no objectivity here. With all due respect, the tournament data should be consulted when restricting something, not my personal likes and dislikes or yours or some other persons "gut" feeling.

There are certain arguments regarding restrictions that are not based on tournament data.

You might choose to deny culpability, but I'm asking that you kindly refrain from taking on an accusatory tone in these threads. It's not helping and as a full member you're encouraging such behavior in others to the detriment of the discussion.

Gush decks are 25% of the metagame, how is that a problem. Trinisphere decks are 10% of Top 8 and are not even considered the best deck, how was that a problem.

Well, once again, format dominance is NOT the only criterion for restriction. We covered this thoroughly before, and those discussions culminated in the restriction of cards like Trinisphere and Flash. It is your prerogative to believe that dominance should be the only determinant for restriction, but don't cry foul if the majority of the DCI don't agree.