With Tezzeret dominating, what would it be safe to unrestrict?

[Evergreen]

While I feel this thread has been quite productive thus far, I cannot believe that some have suggested the un-restriction of Balance.  Balance is one of the most powerful cards ever printed, FAR better than Gush, Fact, Gifts, Flash, Brainstorm, 3sphere etc.  You can make a reasonable argument that most of those cards could be safely unrestricted (although I haven't decided if I actually want to see this happen) but Balance is closer to Yawgmoth's Will power-wise than it is to something like Gush.  I could be wrong, but I can't see how un-restricting Balance would be anything but a colossal mistake, or how anyone who has ever had 5 color stax resolve a Balance against them would disagree.

Also un-restricting Strip Mine seems like a pretty terrible idea.

Comparing "power levels" of cards is meaningless outside the context of the decks themselves. To state that Balance is "more powerful" than Gush or Gifts is a non-argument without outlining how you quantify and compare power levels.

Balance fundamentally is a parity card. To break parity, some investment is required (meaning: useful non-creature artifacts have to resolve first). Balance in fact is part of a strategy antithetical to that of most Mana Drain archetypes, which typically focus on building card advantage. It would therefore be quite interesting to see whether Balance would be sufficient to making 5CWorkshop archetypes on par with or more powerful than Tezzeret decks.

5 color Stax would not just be on-par, but far superior to the Tezzeret decks people are currently complaining about.  I understand that Balance is a parity card, but making it asymmetrical is not exactly difficult, especially in a deck like 5 color Stax where abusing Balance is a natural part of the game-plan.  Yes this is theory on my part, but this is a thread about possible un-restrictions, a little theory is necessary.  I don't think there would be anything interesting about the un-restriction of Balance.  5 color Stax (what would most likely be the best deck at abusing Balance) would dominate until Balance was restricted again, or something equally disgusting was unrestricted.

[Smmenen]

Gush decks are 25% of the metagame, how is that a problem. Trinisphere decks are 10% of Top 8 and are not even considered the best deck, how was that a problem.

Well, once again, format dominance is NOT the only criterion for restriction.

You know that I agree with you on this point, as I believe that the DCI is within its prerogative to restrict whatever it feels is in the best interest of the format.   It's just the format dominance tends to be the most universally acceptable criteria for restriction.

I think much of the problem in this conversation actually comes from the converse of your point here Peter.   There is assumption (see the Title) that Tez/Drain decks are dominating, and therefore something should be done about it.   This is a conflation of two different claims.   While dominance is a criteria for restriction, that doesn't mean that every truly dominant deck/ engine should be restricted.   The assumption that it is (or that it requires unrestrictions, in the alternative) leads to a silly debate over whether Tez/Drain decks are even dominant or not.  That's because those people who don't think that Drain (or some other card should be restricted) think that the battle is lost if it can be established that Drains are dominant.

In my view, a deck or engine should not necessarily prompt restrictions (or unrestrictions) if it is dominant.  Factors such as the duration of that dominance matter alot.   Drains are 45% of the metagame now, and Tez decks are 24% now, but those numbers could change.   Tez has only really had (by my own monitoring) two months of accumulated data. 

Even if Drains/Tez persist in being dominant, that doesn't automatically mean that something should be done.  However, it does mean that prior restrictions need to be squared, or, it suggests that some previous restrictions, such as Gush, could be justifiably reversed.   

two more cents.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Balance is not enough broken, it's a parity card, it doesn't win you games.

Mayonset Rack-Balance would disagree with you.

[JACO]

Balance is not enough broken, it's a parity card, it doesn't win you games.

Mayonset Rack-Balance would disagree with you.

Ben, it's actually Maysonet, as in Adam Maysonet. 1994 was just a little bit different in terms of deck construction, so if doing well in 1994 is the basis of your argument, you might want to rethink your stance. The card pool and deck theory have changed quite a bit since then.

To all of the people who have a problem with Balance, please create your best deck based around it, and feel free to post it here. I doubt it would be any more 'broken' than TPS, Control Slaver, Gifts, or GushBond, and would probably help the format. By all means, prove me wrong, and do your best to break Vintage with Balance.

[yatagirlofchaos]

Restricting more cards is not the answer, unrestricting more is.

You want to shake up the format? Unrestrict:

Balance
Brainstorm
Burning Wish
Channel
Chrome Mox
Crop Rotation
Demonic Consultation
Dream Halls
Enlightened Tutor
Entomb
Fact or Fiction
Fastbond
Flash
Frantic Search
Gifts Ungiven
Grim Monolith
Gush   
Library of Alexandria 
Mox Diamond
Personal Tutor
Ponder 
Regrowth 
Time Spiral
Windfall

Just see what happens. It would be very, very interesting. Some things might need re-restricting (Channel, Crop Rotate, Demonic Consult, Fastbond, Frantic Search, Regrowth, Windfall, all possibilities)

You would have a whole new format, but with more possibilities, not less. It would be broken, but things would balance each other out. There would be so much room for innovation, it's just ridiculous.

That was a couple of months ago, so obviously ignore Chrome Mox, Dream Halls, Personal Tutor, and Mox Diamond. Looking back, unrestricting Demonic Consult may not be the best idea, but the point I was trying to make still stands.

Also, I'm not sure why I didn't include Trinisphere on that list, but that might be okay to unresrict too (maybe not in conjunction with Balance, though). Trinisphere would help to keep the new combo decks in check, but it would also just blank a lot of those strategies, so maybe it would be best to leave it where it is.

[Troy_Costisick]

To all of the people who have a problem with Balance, please create your best deck based around it, and feel free to post it here. I doubt it would be any more 'broken' than TPS, Control Slaver, Gifts, or GushBond, and would probably help the format. By all means, prove me wrong, and do your best to break Vintage with Balance.

Sure. Easy.  Any Tez list with 1 Balance in the main and 3 more in the SB so it can beat its only true threat: Dissruptive Aggro decks.  I'd like to see you get Shop Aggro and Fish players behind your idea.  I'm sure they'll find it reasonble to believe that Drain decks need a two mana board sweeper. 

[Tempus]

To all of the people who have a problem with Balance, please create your best deck based around it, and feel free to post it here. I doubt it would be any more 'broken' than TPS, Control Slaver, Gifts, or GushBond, and would probably help the format. By all means, prove me wrong, and do your best to break Vintage with Balance.

Sure. Easy.  Any Tez list with 1 Balance in the main and 3 more in the SB so it can beat its only true threat: Dissruptive Aggro decks.  I'd like to see you get Shop Aggro and Fish players behind your idea.  I'm sure they'll find it reasonble to believe that Drain decks need a two mana board sweeper. 

But I think, that most disruptive Aggro decks don't have a lot of card draw, which leads to empty hands. And if I didn't get anything wrong, Tez/Draindecks are Control/Combo decks which afaik love to have cards in hand, which would be reduced due to Balance. So maybe is EE or Pernicious Deed the better choice for such a deck...

[BruiZar]

*Trinisphere. Seriously, wtf are you smoking? Have you even been around back then? The collateral damage against budget decks in vintage (fish, elf combo, lich mirror, goblins, etc) is going to damage the player base, which makes this a bad idea even if it wouldnt be as overpowered as it is.

*Grim Monolith isn't restricted because its better than sol ring mana crypt or mana vault, it's restricted because of power artifact. Metal Worker / Staff of Domination is a much stronger combination in that it can draw your deck the same turn. I'd say its save to unrestrict

*Crop Rotation, 4x Crop Rotation is going to hurt fetch for basic land, you're essentially playing 4x waste 5x strip. I would like to see this card unrestricted so that cards such as Knight of the Reliquary, Countryide Crusher and Terravore may make an appearance in the Vintage Scene.

*Flash, I'd keep this restricted for a while, we've all seen what it can do.

*Entomb, off the top of my hat i'd say its safe

*Enlightened Tutor, Saying this won't get played because its white is the most stupid comment ever. As long as we're living in a world with duals and fetch, you can't use that excuse for a card that's costed at just one W mana.

*Balance, THis is just too broken. A deck using mox diamonds or chrome moxen can go way too broken in the fiirst turn with balance

[TopSecret]

So, I thought this was just another Ban/Restricted discussion thread.
However, I just noticed that calls to unrestrict Balance have been made.

I admit I'm a little confused.

I didn't think anybody would want to encourage the use of Balance.
I thought everyone else here thought that kind of thing wasn't fun.
But apparently I was wrong.

I wasn't going to offer my list before because I assumed no one would appreciate my input,
but the comments on some of these past pages have given me hope.

So, here's my proposed list of unrestrictions:

Balance
Burning Wish
Channel
Grim Monolith
Gush
Library of Alexandria
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Mana Vault
Mox Emerald
Mox Peal
Mox Ruby
Regrowth
Strip Mine
Trinisphere


Balance - There have already been a couple good arguments given about this one.

Burning Wish - There are better tutors out there.

Channel - It's double green and it only adds colorless.

Grim Monolith - It's not even as good as Dark Ritual.

Gush - This isn't over the top without Merchant Scroll.

Library of Alexandria - This is too slow to be a problem. It also taps for colorless.

Lion's Eye Diamond - I don't see this being any more busted than it is in Legacy.

Lotus Petal - It should see about as much play as Chrome Mox. Maybe a little more.

Mana Vault - It's worse than Dark Ritual.

Mox Emerald - It taps for Green. Not a candidate for degeneracy in my book.

Mox Pearl - Same as Mox Emerald, except White.

Mox Ruby - Same as Mox Pearl, except Red.

Regrowth - It's cost is too prohibitive to do anything dangerous.

Strip Mine - Same thing as Balance.

Trinisphere - Same thing as Strip Mine.

[hitman]

Sure. Easy.  Any Tez list with 1 Balance in the main and 3 more in the SB so it can beat its only true threat: Dissruptive Aggro decks.  I'd like to see you get Shop Aggro and Fish players behind your idea.  I'm sure they'll find it reasonble to believe that Drain decks need a two mana board sweeper.  Rolling Eyes

...except Drain decks have higher mana demands and need more lands in play along with the tendency to value a healthy number of cards in hand.  Aggro decks in Vintage run off a lighter mana base and tend to run their hand out relatively fast.  Anyone playing Balance in a Tezzeret deck obviously doesn't understand the deck.

[BruiZar]

@TopSecret:

I agree with the unrestriction of Library of Alexandria

[JACO]

To all of the people who have a problem with Balance, please create your best deck based around it, and feel free to post it here. I doubt it would be any more 'broken' than TPS, Control Slaver, Gifts, or GushBond, and would probably help the format. By all means, prove me wrong, and do your best to break Vintage with Balance.

Sure. Easy.  Any Tez list with 1 Balance in the main and 3 more in the SB so it can beat its only true threat: Dissruptive Aggro decks.  I'd like to see you get Shop Aggro and Fish players behind your idea.  I'm sure they'll find it reasonble to believe that Drain decks need a two mana board sweeper.

Do you actually know how to play Tezzeret, or have you played it successfully in any tournaments? It's a deck that wants to spend time developing its mana base, drawing cards, and tutoring, not losing their own cards/resources to play removal. Repeal is much better at dealing with aggro (on color, cantrips, never dead, etc.). Go ahead and build your Tezzeret deck with Balances in it, and then get blown out by the other Tezzeret players not playing dead cards in their decks.

However, I just noticed that calls to unrestrict Balance have been made.

I admit I'm a little confused.

I didn't think anybody would want to encourage the use of Balance.
I thought everyone else here thought that kind of thing wasn't fun.
But apparently I was wrong.

For all the crying people do about the incredible card draw and manipulation of cards like Brainstorm, Gush, Gifts, Thirst, or whatever other Blue card draw is en vogue at the time, wouldn't Balance be a good card to combat that? Wouldn't Balance be a good card to combat the incredible power of cards like Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will as well?

Balance is a great card, and very powerful. I just don't think a strategy based around Balance is any stronger than other strategies that already exist. Like I said, everyone who has a major problem with Balance in a modern format where plenty of other powerful decks exist, please design some decks you think are broken and would dominate. I'd be interested in teaming up with Smennen, The Atog Lord, LHC, GWS, Owen and ICBM, the Ohio posse, and any others to create a "future future league," akin to what Wizards' development department has, to actually test a format where people could actually play more cards and have access to more decks.

[Implacable]

Yeah, I'm thinking 4Balance Stax might be the biggest problem; it's a real beating in 5C, and they could up the artifact count with, say, Diamonds, to make it more explosive.  But your FFL idea sounds really solid on the face of itl, and I agree that there should be more unrestrictions. 

[Suicideking]

To all of the people who have a problem with Balance, please create your best deck based around it, and feel free to post it here. I doubt it would be any more 'broken' than TPS, Control Slaver, Gifts, or GushBond, and would probably help the format. By all means, prove me wrong, and do your best to break Vintage with Balance.

Sure. Easy.  Any Tez list with 1 Balance in the main and 3 more in the SB so it can beat its only true threat: Dissruptive Aggro decks.  I'd like to see you get Shop Aggro and Fish players behind your idea.  I'm sure they'll find it reasonble to believe that Drain decks need a two mana board sweeper.

Do you actually know how to play Tezzeret, or have you played it successfully in any tournaments? It's a deck that wants to spend time developing its mana base, drawing cards, and tutoring, not losing their own cards/resources to play removal. Repeal is much better at dealing with aggro (on color, cantrips, never dead, etc.). Go ahead and build your Tezzeret deck with Balances in it, and then get blown out by the other Tezzeret players not playing dead cards in their decks.

However, I just noticed that calls to unrestrict Balance have been made.

I admit I'm a little confused.

I didn't think anybody would want to encourage the use of Balance.
I thought everyone else here thought that kind of thing wasn't fun.
But apparently I was wrong.

For all the crying people do about the incredible card draw and manipulation of cards like Brainstorm, Gush, Gifts, Thirst, or whatever other Blue card draw is en vogue at the time, wouldn't Balance be a good card to combat that? Wouldn't Balance be a good card to combat the incredible power of cards like Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will as well?

Balance is a great card, and very powerful. I just don't think a strategy based around Balance is any stronger than other strategies that already exist. Like I said, everyone who has a major problem with Balance in a modern format where plenty of other powerful decks exist, please design some decks you think are broken and would dominate. I'd be interested in teaming up with Smennen, The Atog Lord, LHC, GWS, Owen and ICBM, the Ohio posse, and any others to create a "future future league," akin to what Wizards' development department has, to actually test a format where people could actually play more cards and have access to more decks.

JACO, I'd agree with you on this point.  I actually would like to see what would happen if most of the list was unrestricted, besides for the obvious shit like Moxes and power.  The problem with these cumulative restricted lists is that we never see how certain 4 offs would balance each other out.  Realistically, I don't see a Mox diamond, mox diamond, balance opener being more broken then, ritual, ritual, mind twist plays that already exist.   

[Troy_Costisick]

Do you actually know how to play Tezzeret, or have you played it successfully in any tournaments?

Did you actually play Magic back when 4 Balances were legal?

[hitman]

Did you actually play Magic back when 4 Balances were legal?

JACO keeps saying that deck construction then and now are very different and that currently played cards are as powerful, if not more so, than the competitive cardpool of the past.  Again, we know Balance was very good.  The argument hinges on whether it's better than what we have now.

[Implacable]

JACO, I'd agree with you on this point.  I actually would like to see what would happen if most of the list was unrestricted, besides for the obvious shit like Moxes and power.  The problem with these cumulative restricted lists is that we never see how certain 4 offs would balance each other out.  Realistically, I don't see a Mox diamond, mox diamond, balance opener being more broken then, ritual, ritual, mind twist plays that already exist.   

Just a quick side-note: Mox, Diamond, Balance (a perfectly reasonable opener) = discard four cards.  Pretty sick.  But I don't know if it's too sick for Vintage.

[Wagner]

JACO, I'd agree with you on this point.  I actually would like to see what would happen if most of the list was unrestricted, besides for the obvious shit like Moxes and power.  The problem with these cumulative restricted lists is that we never see how certain 4 offs would balance each other out.  Realistically, I don't see a Mox diamond, mox diamond, balance opener being more broken then, ritual, ritual, mind twist plays that already exist.   

Just a quick side-note: Mox, Diamond, Balance (a perfectly reasonable opener) = discard four cards.  Pretty sick.  But I don't know if it's too sick for Vintage.

You also lose your land. Giving you a total of +1 cards advantage. Good yes, but I feel you are making if appear as super busted.

[Suicideking]

JACO, I'd agree with you on this point.  I actually would like to see what would happen if most of the list was unrestricted, besides for the obvious shit like Moxes and power.  The problem with these cumulative restricted lists is that we never see how certain 4 offs would balance each other out.  Realistically, I don't see a Mox diamond, mox diamond, balance opener being more broken then, ritual, ritual, mind twist plays that already exist.   

Just a quick side-note: Mox, Diamond, Balance (a perfectly reasonable opener) = discard four cards.  Pretty sick.  But I don't know if it's too sick for Vintage.

I agree.  It is really good but this is vintage.  There are sicker turn one plays all the time.  Tell me thats better then just winning on turn one. 

You also lose your land. Giving you a total of +1 cards advantage. Good yes, but I feel you are making if appear as super busted.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

JACO, I'd agree with you on this point.  I actually would like to see what would happen if most of the list was unrestricted, besides for the obvious shit like Moxes and power.  The problem with these cumulative restricted lists is that we never see how certain 4 offs would balance each other out.  Realistically, I don't see a Mox diamond, mox diamond, balance opener being more broken then, ritual, ritual, mind twist plays that already exist.   

Just a quick side-note: Mox, Diamond, Balance (a perfectly reasonable opener) = discard four cards.  Pretty sick.  But I don't know if it's too sick for Vintage.

You also lose your land. Giving you a total of +1 cards advantage. Good yes, but I feel you are making if appear as super busted.

He said mox, diamond. Not play a land, mox, mox diamond. In any case its not that balance is good turn 1 what makes balance broken is the raw power you get mid-late game off it. Against aggro/colossus/oath its more or less discard x cards destroy y creatures including those with shroud and indestructability. Not to mention if you're running card draw balance becomes more busted. While your opponent burns draw spells you just play lands/moxes and turn 3 balance destroying his hand followed by your own draw spells. Its a 2 mana super wrath of god or a 2 mana mind twist or a 2 mana completely screw your opponent over card. Its literally a 2 mana swiss army knife that in the hands of a skilled opponent or just shoved into a random stax deck that can support it wins games. I would hate to give every deck out there the option to splash a 2 mana game ending spell.

[Sean Ryan]

What's the point of arguing over Balance right now?  Is that the best response we can come up with to the current issue of Tezzeret domination?  Or more appropriately, Timevault domination. 

FFY was right on.  This isn't a problem with Drain it's TimeVault/Key.  With all of the Tutoring and acceleration a two card 4 mana I win combo is simply dominating.  It's not unbeatable by any means, see decks with Null Rod, but things are degenerating into decks that abuse Timevault and decks that Beat Timevault.  The other primary strategies have to work much harder to be able to compete becoming simply inferior.  Why try to chain 10 spells together with TPS when you can cast two for the win?  Why try and lock someone out when they only need the smallest sliver of space and time to put together 2 cards for the win?  Is that acceptable? 

A word for those calling for Drains restriction: Be careful what you wish for.  The metagame would most likely become less interactive centering around Oath as the new shell for Time vault with TPS and Shops at tier 2.  A Mana Drain centered metagame tends to be more enjoyable and balanced for everyone involved.  Painter and Slaver have much less raw power than Timevault combo leaving more space for competing strategies.  Similarly, restricting Thirst just leads to Intuition AK as the next way to assemble Vault Key.       

I see two realistic options neither of which involves unrestrictions:
1) Do nothing and allow the metagame to adjust around beating Timevault combo

2) Axe Timevault

It's not that unrestricting of certain cards isn't needed, but that it will not solve the problem of Timevault without things degenerating into blackjack.  Trinisphere or Balance may be able to compete, but what does that accomplish?  Both less 'fun' and less skill.  Some have suggested unrestricting Gush/Ponder.  Okay, but why not simply use the Gush engine to win with Timevault?  Then we are back where we started, and maybe even worse off.


From the recent data the burden of proof is on why NOT to have Timevault/Key in your deck.

Here is a question for everyone:  If you aren't packing Null Rods why shouldn't your deck have the Timevault combo in it? 

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Axe Time Vault seems fine, people were happy with the metagame before right?

[Eastman]

FFY was right on.  This isn't a problem with Drain it's TimeVault/Key.  With all of the Tutoring and acceleration a two card 4 mana I win combo is simply dominating.  It's not unbeatable by any means, see decks with Null Rod, but things are degenerating into decks that abuse Timevault and decks that Beat Timevault.  The other primary strategies have to work much harder to be able to compete becoming simply inferior.  Why try to chain 10 spells together with TPS when you can cast two for the win?  Why try and lock someone out when they only need the smallest sliver of space and time to put together 2 cards for the win?  Is that acceptable? 

So true.  I played around with a TPS list that had vault and key thrown in, and couldn't believe how frequently I just went for vault/key since it's such an easier win.  I'd then tell the opponent 'ok now i'll sit here and draw and build mana for awhile, then eventually do that whole bothersome tendrils thing.'  It really does seem too easy sometimes.

Balance........

I wonder how many times the people arguing for its restriction have actually cast Balance.  It is NOT a card about parity, these arguments are wrong.  It isn't about parity because only one player gets to decide when it happens - you. 

5c Stax would instantly become much much better. All of the key matchups would be improved by a significant margin:

Against TPS or Drains: The Rebuild plan (probably the most important way that decks running Blue win games against Workshops - waiting all day till the perfect time to cast rebuild/hurkyl's) would be completely eviscerated by mid/late game balances off the top. (because those balances would clear the hand and prevent players from hoarding rebuild and/or the resources necessary to win after the rebuild)  I'd guess the overall matchup against TPS would swing by like 20% or more, and against drains by 10% or so.  I'm basing those numbers off my guess for how often the rebuild plan wins that matchup these days.

Against Fish strategies: Currently the Fish player beats STAX by loading up the board with permanents (creatures) and overwhelming the lock.  Suffice it to say that a handful of 2-cost board sweepers would help the STAX player.  I don't play Fish myself so I'm not gonna venture a guess on the percentage, but I highly doubt it is insignificant. 

Anyway with across-the-board improvements in matchups, one deck that's already good would get a lot better.  So that's worrisome.  And who knows what else people would concoct?  I don't think there are many criteria for unrestriction that would counsel in favor of it for a card with (1) low cost, (2) a broken effect, (3) an obvious home for it in an already competitive deck. 

[TK]

Tezzeret may be the best deck right now but I don't think its anywere near being a problem.  I do think that time vault/voltaic key combo is petty stupid but its not that hard to stop. If you aren't playing tezzeret when you go to build whatever deck you want to play ask yourself whats my plan to beat tezz. If you cant figure out a legitimate strategy to do that go ahead and pick a different deck.

As long as nothing changes to the b&r list tezz probably will continue to put up the best results but that's mainly because the better players will continue to run it.

As far as the B&R talks have been going Ill through in my two cents.

Balance - is still to broken to take off the list. like many have said stax decks would run 4 immediately

Crop rotation - can defiantly come off

gifts and fact - should both stay on. Gifts would allow the tezz decks to operate similar to the flame/vault gifts decks of old and fact is still just to good.

enlightened tutor - can come off someone said earlier this would be played in combo to get bargain or necro but that seems really terrible

Channel - far to good yet belcher would run 4 with 4 belcher and 4 lichs mirror between those effects and the easiness of casting channel with esg and manamorphose the turn one possibilities would be to great.

Burning wish - can probably come off its not as broken without LED

Grim Monolith - not even that good belcher would possibly run 4 I don't know if that would even be good. and it would make power artfact combo almost playable

Strip mine - can definitely not come off its just to good

Library of Alexandria - this one I'm not sure about, I don't see running 4 in a drain deck but i definitely see a deck with negate, mana leak, rune snag etc running 4 of these with ease, so its probably safer to just leave this one on the list.

Mana drain - I don't think restricting drain, shop, bazaar, or ritual is ever the right choice because they make up the main vintage archtypes and are the reason many people like vintage over say legacy.

The format kinda sucks right now but as long as you design a deck properly you can still win with anything.

Kinda like owens idea

[LordHomerCat]

By "axe time vault", what do you guys mean?  Do you want to see it banned?  Re-errataed again?

If it is a banning you want, I can't get behind that.  There is no way that Time Vault is more powerful than Yawgmoth's Will and that card has not been banned.  I'm not sure how you could justify banning Vault over Will or Tinker or Lotus or Ancestral.

If it is errata, well, I don't like that either.  I think the current wording is excellent.  I mean, it's really powerful and is a ridiculous interaction with Voltaic Key, but as far as being true to how one would expect it to work, the card is better than it has been since it was first printed.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

By "axe time vault", what do you guys mean?  Do you want to see it banned?  Re-errataed again?

These are the same thing.

What I mean is if you think Tez is a problem (not that I do) then removing Time Vault from the picture means youd have to play a different win condition and I think the next best is Painter+Grindstone. People never complained about that being degenerate.

[Bongo]

A word for those calling for Drains restriction: Be careful what you wish for.  The metagame would most likely become less interactive centering around Oath as the new shell for Time vault with TPS and Shops at tier 2.  A Mana Drain centered metagame tends to be more enjoyable and balanced for everyone involved.  Painter and Slaver have much less raw power than Timevault combo leaving more space for competing strategies.  Similarly, restricting Thirst just leads to Intuition AK as the next way to assemble Vault Key.       

It's highly subjective what kind of metagame one might find enjoyable. I don't find Drain metagames enjoying, I'd rather have a more diverse metagame. Control mirrors are fine and dandy, but at some point it gets tiresome. In my opinion, that tipping point has been eclipsed, there is more than enough statistical evidence proving that Mana Drain is absolutely dominating, on par with Skullclamp-era Affinity.
Some people disliked the Trinisphere, some people disliked the Flash. Just the disliking of those cards led to their restricting, even without numerical proof. Mana Drain is dominating and the numbers are there. I don't know what else a card needs to be restricted.

You can't make precise future metagame predictions. A metagame without Drain might turn out entirely different. There is no proof that Oath will dominate.

As I said before, Mana Drain is the fuel that gets the engine of the dominant blue control decks running. Without Drain, any deck using Thirst/IntuAK/RemoraMeditate are going to be a lot slower, giving other decks a better chance. Restrict Thirst, and another draw engine will take its place swiftly. I have the same opinion here.

I also don't think nerfing TimeVault is an action the DCI is going to take. They re-erratad Time Vault numerous times, and they even stated that they're removing power-level errata. Restricting Key doesn't accomplish anything, so that leaves banning. I don't think that is going to happen. There were calls for bannings before (Will and Welder comes to mind), and it didn't happen. While TimeVault is certainly the number one win condition right now, I think that its dominance comes from the fact that people are not sufficiently prepared. The combo can be intercepted at many levels, people are just not adjusting to it (yet).

The problem is the Drain shell around the TimeVault combo. It is by far the best deck shell for the combo as Drain defends and accelerates into the combo at the same time. With Shops you have the mulligan inconsistencies and the dependancy on the coinflip, while Rituals in TPS sometimes sit in your hand without doing anything. With Drains, you have the best protection, acceleration, card draw and win condition in Vintage. No wonder Tezzeret is dominant right now. The only restriction that would change this is the restriction of Mana Drain.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

By "axe time vault", what do you guys mean?  Do you want to see it banned?  Re-errataed again?

If it is a banning you want, I can't get behind that.  There is no way that Time Vault is more powerful than Yawgmoth's Will and that card has not been banned.  I'm not sure how you could justify banning Vault over Will or Tinker or Lotus or Ancestral.

If it is errata, well, I don't like that either.  I think the current wording is excellent.  I mean, it's really powerful and is a ridiculous interaction with Voltaic Key, but as far as being true to how one would expect it to work, the card is better than it has been since it was first printed.

I don't know if people are reading my posts since they seem to be ignored but how is Will better? Will costs 1 less mana, but can easily get hated with general cards . Will requires colored mana. Will is useless in your hand early game. Will doesn't have a recursion engine if it gets countered, vault/key has Welder/Will/Academy Ruins/etc. Will has to be set up, vault/key can get dropped any point in the game. Will is massive card advantage that usually leads to winning the game, vault/key does the same thing but on a much larger scale requiring no graveyard dependance. Vault/key has all the same tutors as Will but also tinker/tezzeret/enlightened tutor/random artifact tutors. Absolutely any deck can run key/vault and have it randomly win games. Will requires a color splash+the possibility of lots of mana+cards significantly worth recasting. (AKA you can't randomly toss it into a Fish deck even if the deck runs tutors)

As I've said before vault+key is Yawgmoth's Bargain on crack. If tomorrow morning WotC printed a 4BB cc artifact that had 1: Untap all your permanents, take an upkeep phase, draw a card, gain an additional attack phase, you may play an additional land. it would be considered madness and instantly banned in all formats. This costs BB less at the cost of being split into 2 cards. The only hate most decks can run against it is Pithing Needle and Null Rod, niether of which stop actually casting the card and niether of which are immune to bounce->win. I don't think an errata is the solution since a card should work as it was printed. However, there is absolutely no reason that this format won't turn into key/vault vs null rod unless its locally banned to the point where WotC eventually does it as well. Drain decks were never this dominant before and the only thing that has changed since Gifts was the bombshell deck is that aggro decks got better tools and drain got a combo that laughs at those tools. People keep saying that the combo isn't that broken but in all honesty how is it not the best win condition in the history of vintage? Once again, painter/stone is more vulnerable, costs more mana, and is harder to tutor for. Just remember tezz doesn't win the game when he resolves without vault/key.

[jamestosetti]

I just read this post. I'm not sure if your serious about the named cards or not but those would definitely be to much. Mana drain is definitely not the problem. It's not hard to see that 2 tezzeret the seekers causes alot of top 8s. With your proposed unrestrictions it would be a parfait metagame.I think Tezzeret should be resticted as well as sphere of resistance. Artifact isn't a color anyway so why should it be let to run lose with all crazy artifacts? It kind of shapes the metagame right there. This is just obvious stuff.You can either state the obvious fix it and move on or you can add to the problem and say you don't know what to do.If more archetypes were created 2 Tezzerets would not be a huge thing and mana drain would not seem so dominant. Wizards makes a killer archetype and lets it run things for a while then they print a card that totally owns that deck and so on and so on. That's not what I call a healthy metagame. They need to make more archetypes that have balanced matchups so skill determines the wins. Of course every time I say things to people there like nuh uh your dumb and nothing gets done but the wrong thing.So you'll all forget about this in 3 posts and keep the topic rolling. Thanks for reading.Lol.

[nineisnoone]

Anyway with across-the-board improvements in matchups, one deck that's already good would get a lot better.  So that's worrisome.  And who knows what else people would concoct?  I don't think there are many criteria for unrestriction that would counsel in favor of it for a card with (1) low cost, (2) a broken effect, (3) an obvious home for it in an already competitive deck.

I don't know.  To me that's more of a plus, then a minus.  I'm sitting here wondering what sort of crazy horrifically broken deck someone could concoct.  And I want to see that.  What's the point of unrestricting something with a high cost, non-broken effect, and no obvious home in competitive decks?  In the situations that you list, you there are still the basic defenses like FoW and various counterspells.  

I mean, sure it's a Wrath of God, Armageddon, and Mind Twist (or something like that), but those cards have never exactly been Vintage playable.  I'm sure the card would walk into the same hallowed ground as cards like Duress, Force of Will, and Mana Drain... it might even surpass those cards.  But I don't see that as a problem.  What would be so wrong about a format where the #1 card was Balance?  There are plenty of tools to adapt: artifact mana, card draw, and recursion tools.  You can still cast Force of Will against it.  You can still Drain it.  You can still Duress or Thoughtseize it out of their hand since it is sorcery speed.  It's an entirely interactive card that can be dealt with in a conventional manner.