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Author Topic: [Type 4] Too big a choice :)  (Read 3832 times)
Farandar
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« on: February 13, 2009, 06:13:45 am »

Hello

As I already said in another topic, I'm currently refactoring my stack with new cards. The process is awful, since there are so many good cards out there, not to talk about the ones we used to play and love... but are outdated anyway.

We want to keep our stack as thin as possible, around 300 or something.

Our main problem is about creatures.
We have this current list :
Aeon Chronicler   X      
Angel of despair   X      Woodfall primus
Arashi the sky asunder   X      
Autochton wurm   X      
Aven fateshaper   X      
Aven mindcensor   X      
Azami, Lady of Scrolls   X      
Azorius Guildmage   X      
Bane of the living   X   Foil   
Blazing archon   X      
Bloodfire colossus   X      
Body Double   X      
Bosh, golem legend   X      
Brine elemental   X      
Bringer of black dawn   X      
Brion stoutarm   X      
Chainer, Dementia Master   X      
Charnelhoard Wurm   X      
Chromshell Crab   X      
Crowd Favorites   X      
Crush of wurms   X      
Desolation Giant   X      
Draco   X      
Draining whelk   X      
Duplicant   X      
Ertai, the corrupted   X      Voidmage prodigy
Ertai, Wizard Adept   X      
Excruciator   X      Jiwari, the earth aflame
False prophet   X   Foil   
Flowstone overseer   X      
Genesis   X      Sedris, the traitor king
Gigapede   X      
Glarecaster   X      
Grozoth   X      
Gurzigost   X      Plated slagwurm
Imperial Helkite   X      
Iname as One   X      
Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil   X      
Inkwell Leviathan   X      
Intet the dreamer   X      
Kaervek the merciless   X      
Krosan cloudscraper   X      
Kuro, pitlord   X      
Limdul the necromancer   X      
Meglonoth   X      
Mortivore   X      
Multani, maro sorcerer   X      
Myojin of cleansing fire   X      
Myojin of life's web   X      
Myojin of Seeing winds   X      The unspeakable
Nightscape battlemage   X      Kederekt leviathan
Nucklavee   X      Garza Zol, plague queen
Nullstone Gargoyle   X      
Opal-eye, Konda's yojimbo   X      Empyrial Archangel
Panglacial wurm   X      
Patron of the kitsune   X      
Patron of the nezumi   X      
Phage, the untouchable   X      
Phantom Nishoba   X      
Plaguebearer   X      
Prince of thralls   X      
Progenitus   X      
Questing phelddagrif   X      
Quicksilver dragon   X      
Reiver demon   X      
Riptide shapeshifter   X      
Root elemental   X      
Scion of the ur dragon   X      
Scourge of Kher Ridge   X      
Sisters of Stone death   X      
Skinthinner   X      
Smokespew invoker   X      
Sphinge sovereign   X      
Stonecloaker   X      
Suncrusher   X      
Symbiotic wurm   X      
Teneb the harvester   X      
Thicket elemental   X      Higure, the still wind (will there be enough ninja in the end ?)
Tomorrow, Azami's familiar   X      
Vampiric dragon   X      
Vesuvan shapeshifter   X      
Voidmage apprentice   X      
Willbender   X      
   
When there are two creatures in the same row, that means we already intend to change to the second card, but don't have it yet.

We've seen these as good, but don't own them yet :
Armored guardian
Blood tyrant
Child of Alara
Creakwood Ghoul
Deep-sea kraken
Guile
Infernal spawn of evil
Ink-eye, Servant of Onis
Knacksaw Clique
Maelstrom Archangel     
Magister sphinx
Mindleech mass
Promise of power
Reya Dawnbringer
Xanthic statue

And here some that we'd like in, but don't know if they'll make it.
Bringer of white dawn
Brooding saurian
Deep-Sea Kraken
Experiment Kraj
Fortune thief
Gleancrawler
Godsire
Heartless Hidetsugu
Hostility
Hoverguard Sweepers
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Paladin of Prahv
Purity
Quicksilver Elemental
Rakdos the Defiler
Rimefeather Owl
Rimescale Dragon
Rockshard Elemental
Ryusei, the Falling Star
Skarrgan Firebird
Soul Collector
Spearbreaker Behemoth
Spirit en-Dal
Spirit of the Hearth
Stone-Tongue Basilisk
Szadek, Lord of Secrets
Throat Slitter
Tsabo Tavoc
Uktabi Kong
Yomiji, Who Bars the Way

In the end, there should be something like 99 creatures.

Our stack doesn't allow Consumptive goo (way too big too quickly), Black Myojin, Nicol Bolas (the EDL) and massive discarding creatures.
We also avoid to spend more than a few bucks in a card (moreover, we're in France, so spendifng bucks is quite hard around here Wink )

Thanks in advance for you precious advices !
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Mr. Type 4
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2009, 03:33:49 pm »

When I evaluate creatures for Type 4, I look at the following things:

For non-uitility creatures:
1. Must be able to protect itself
2. Needs to be significantly big
3. Evasion ability is a plus

SO a creature like Autochron Wurn is usually bad because it doesnt protect itself and doesnt have utility value.  For example: I'd say that Autochron wurm is too easily killed to be very good, while something like Inkwell Leviathan which is untargetable is much better.  A creature that's really big could possibly be above these rules, but such a creature doesnt exist in my opinion.

For Utility Creatures:
1. Ability needs to be useable immediatly
2. If it can't be used immediatly, creature should be able to protect itself
3. if it cant be used immediatly and cant protect itself, then the abilty better be damn good, or the creature should be a serviceable attacker.

SO a creature like Brion Stoutarm is cool, but he might not ever get to use his ability so he would be more cuttable than something that can use its ability right away.  A creature like Nicol Bolas fits as a serviceabler attacker at 7/7 Flying and Ertai, Wizard Adept/bringer of black dawn qualify as a creature who's abilty is damn good.   I cant think of something that fits under rule #2 off the top of my head. 

Moprh creatures are in a special category because being a Morph makes the creature a lot better right off the bat. 

here's my quick opionons just based on my experiences:

Aeon Chronicler   X   keep   
Angel of despair   X      Woodfall primus keep both
Arashi the sky asunder   X keep     
Autochton wurm   X      cut
Aven fateshaper   X      keep
Aven mindcensor   X      maybe
Azami, Lady of Scrolls   X      maybe
Azorius Guildmage   X      keep
Bane of the living   X   Foil   keep
Blazing archon   X      cut (too easily killed)
Bloodfire colossus   X      keep
Body Double   X      keep
Bosh, golem legend   X   keep   
Brine elemental   X      keep
Bringer of black dawn   X    keep 
Brion stoutarm   X      cut
Chainer, Dementia Master   X    keep 
Charnelhoard Wurm   X     maybe, probably cut
Chromshell Crab   X      keep
Crowd Favorites   X      keep
Crush of wurms   X      keep
Desolation Giant   X      keep
Draco   X      cut (but you play Kaboom, so maaaybe keep)
Draining whelk   X      keep
Duplicant   X      keep
Ertai, the corrupted   X      Voidmage prodigy - good switch
Ertai, Wizard Adept   X      keep
Excruciator   X      Jiwari, the earth aflame - good switch
False prophet   X   Foil   maybe
Flowstone overseer   X      keep
Genesis   X      Sedris, the traitor king -  LOVE Genesis.  I'd keep both
Gigapede   X      maybe
Glarecaster   X      keep
Grozoth   X      maybe
Gurzigost   X      Plated slagwurm good switch
Imperial Helkite   X      keep
Iname as One   X   not sure, enough spirits?   
Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil   X  keep     
Inkwell Leviathan   X      keep
Intet the dreamer   X      maybe
Kaervek the merciless   X      keep
Krosan cloudscraper   X      keep
Kuro, pitlord   X      keep
Limdul the necromancer   X       cut
Meglonoth   X      cut
Mortivore   X      keep
Multani, maro sorcerer   X     
Myojin of cleansing fire   X   keep   
Myojin of life's web   X      keep
Myojin of Seeing winds   X      The unspeakable really? what spells are even Arcane? I like Blue Myojin
Nightscape battlemage   X      Kederekt leviathan the battle mage isnt terrible, but Leviathan is way better.  consider keeping both
Nucklavee   X      Garza Zol, plague queen - I like both of these
Nullstone Gargoyle   X      keep
Opal-eye, Konda's yojimbo   X      Empyrial Archangel good switch
Panglacial wurm   X      keep (if you play it doesnt count as your spell to cast from deck)
Patron of the kitsune   X      weak. cut
Patron of the nezumi   X      maybe, prob cut
Phage, the untouchable   X     I keep Phage because I find it to be flavorful and amusing, butI think she actually is trerrible.
Phantom Nishoba   X      keep
Plaguebearer   X      keep
Prince of thralls   X      cut
Progenitus   X      keep
Questing phelddagrif   X    seems broken 
Quicksilver dragon   X      this might as well be untargetable.  Maybe
Reiver demon   X      keep
Riptide shapeshifter   X      keep
Root elemental   X      keep
Scion of the ur dragon   X     maybe, prob keep
Scourge of Kher Ridge   X      keep
Sisters of Stone death   X      cut
Skinthinner   X      keep
Smokespew invoker   X  keep     
Sphinge sovereign   X      maybe
Stonecloaker   X      keep
Suncrusher   X      cut
Symbiotic wurm   X      maybe
Teneb the harvester   X      maybe
Thicket elemental   X      Higure, the still wind (will there be enough ninja in the end ?) I dont know if I like either of these guys
Tomorrow, Azami's familiar   X      ?? no idea of how good this is
Vampiric dragon   X      keep
Vesuvan shapeshifter   X      keep
Voidmage apprentice   X      keep
Willbender   X      keep

Good ones to add:
Armored guardian
Creakwood Ghoul - definitly
Guile
Infernal spawn of evil
Magister sphinx
Promise of power
Reya Dawnbringer
Bringer of white dawn
Uktabi Kong
Kokusho
Dimir Doppleganger

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Farandar
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2009, 08:16:09 am »

Thanks a lot for the time I guess you spent on that list Smile

It helped a lot. I decided to kept more creatures than what you cut just because of he numbers of wrath, removal and counters. I didn't want to run "low on creatures".

What the new stack looks like :

(As before, X-marked cards are the one we own, another card named after the X is the "wannabe in that slot card", comments in parenthesis are... comments... and foil/asian is just the shiny factor...)

Créatures   Aeon Chronicler   X      
   Aerial Caravan   X      (awful draw engine, but so many removal it might not get to chance to ge ugly)
   Angel of despair   X      
   Arashi the sky asunder   X      
   Autochton wurm   X      Woodfall primus
   Aven fateshaper   X      
   Aven mindcensor   X      
   Azami, Lady of Scrolls   X      
   Azorius Guildmage   X      
   Bane of the living   X   Foil   
   Blazing archon   X      Sedris, the traitor king
   Blood tyrant   X      (sounds awfully fun in multiplayer Smile
   Bloodfire colossus   X      
   Body Double   X      
   Bosh, golem legend   X      
   Brine elemental   X      
   Bringer of black dawn   X   (not that much to recurse but Mindslaver, might bring things back you REALLY want)   
   Bringer of white dawn   X      
   Brion stoutarm   X      (not the best, but fun... might be a magnet for removal, or "forget I'm here"... we'll see)
   Brooding saurian   X      (the lightest of the big body, but it has a great abilty since there are so many control magics... might get out as it comes if not that useful)
   Chainer, Dementia Master   X   (the 3 lifepoint thing is a high cost, and its ability can be negate by the above Brooding saurian)   
   Charnelhoard Wurm   X   (no that bad for a filler, and we have it)   
   Chromshell Crab   X      
   Crowd Favorites   X      
   Crush of wurms   X      
   Desolation Giant   X      
   Draco   X   (dragon, and a few drawbacks... remember we consider adding vizzerdrix as a "worst of"... Draco and phage are not THAT bad, after all)   
   Draining whelk   X      
   Duplicant   X      
   Ertai, the corrupted   X      Voidmage prodigy
   Ertai, Wizard Adept   X      
   Excruciator   X      Jiwari, the earth aflame
   False prophet   X   Foil   
   Flowstone overseer   X      
   Genesis   X      
   Gigapede   X      Firemane angel (second sounds a better version of the version, no ?)
   Glarecaster   X      
   Grozoth   X      
   Gurzigost   X      Plated slagwurm
   Hoverguard Sweepers   X   (nice 187 effect, comboes well with flickerform, big body, evasion, we have it... they made it Wink   
   Imperial Helkite   X      
   Iname as One   X      
   Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil   X      
   Inkwell Leviathan   X      
   Intet the dreamer   X      
   Kaervek the merciless   X      
   Kaho, Minamo Historian   X      Knacksaw Clique (might keep both for creatures number sake)
   Keeper of the sacred word X (ever noticed everyone has a langage bad habit, like "you see", "actually", "Attack", "please" - see below for this one Wink
   Krosan cloudscraper   X      
   Kuro, pitlord   X      
   Limdul the necromancer   X   (he stayed thanks to its type, which comboes with Azami, Voidmage prod and he like...)
   Meglonoth   X      
   Mortivore   X      
   Multani, maro sorcerer   X      
   Myojin of cleansing fire   X      
   Myojin of life's web   X      
   Myojin of Seeing winds   X      
   Nightscape battlemage   X      Kederekt leviathan
   Nucklavee   X      
   Nullstone Gargoyle   X      (on the watch list)
   Opal-eye, Konda's yojimbo   X      Empyrial Archangel (this one is very sough after in T2 and by collectionners, so we might wait a bit)
   Paladin of Prahv   X      
   Panglacial wurm   X      
   Patron of the kitsune   X      The unspeakable (target Terashi's grasp, Rend flesh, blind with anger, consuming vortex... wonder if all kamigawa non-permanent spells might be considered as arcane to make it even more worth it)
   Patron of the nezumi   X      
   Phage, the untouchable   X      
   Phantom Nishoba   X      
   Plaguebearer   X      
   Prince of thralls   X      
   Progenitus   X      
   Questing phelddagrif   X      (one errata : if you pump it on your turn, gains defender. Political thing)
   Quicksilver dragon   X      
   Quicksilver elemental   X      Guile
   Reiver demon   X      
   Riptide shapeshifter   X      
   Rockshard elemental   X      Garza Zol, plague queen (I can't wait to have the replacement !!!)
   Root elemental   X      
   Scion of the ur dragon   X      
   Scourge of Kher Ridge   X      
   Sisters of Stone death   X      
   Skinthinner   X      
   Smokespew invoker   X      
   Soul collector   X      Dimir doppleganger (might occur we keep both since Morph collector is nice)
   Sphinge sovereign   X      
   Stone-tongue Basilisk   X   Prerelease foil (we'll just keep this one cause it's shiny)
   Stonecloaker   X      
   Suncrusher   X   (as a 9CC spell, sounds a great target for 187 Grozoth)   
   Symbiotic wurm   X      
   Teneb the harvester   X      
   Thicket elemental   X      Metathran aerostat
   Tomorrow, Azami's familiar   X      
   Vampiric dragon   X      
   Vesuvan shapeshifter   X      
   Voidmage apprentice   X      
   Willbender   X      
   Withered Wretch   X      Creakwood Ghoul

We don't own these yet, but we're waiting for them Wink
            Promise of power
            Reya Dawnbringer (ever noticed it's a 9cc spell ?)
            Uktabi kong
            Armored guardian
            Infernal spawn of evil
            Magister sphinx (Hidestugu second WHAT ?)
removal   Agonizing demise   X      
   Altar's light         
   Annihilate   X      
   Barter in blood   X      
   Brainspoil   X      
   Chastise   X      
   Chill to the bone   X      
   Consuming vortex   X      
   Crack the earth   X      
   Crosis's charm   X      
   Cruel revival   X      
   Dark withering   X      
   Derelict   X      
   Desert twister   X      
   Detonate   X      
   Din of the Fireherd   X      
   Dismantling blow         
   Expunge   X      
   Fissure   X      
   Heat ray   X      
   Hit/run         
   Multani's decree   X      Fracturing Gust
   odds/ends   X      
   Order/chaos   X      
   Orim's thunder   X      
   Phtisis   X      
   Predator, Flagship         
   Radiant's judgment   X      
   Rain of rust   X      
   Razia's Purification   X   Foil   
   Rend flesh   X      
   Resounding silence   X   Foil   
   Resounding wave         
   Root grapple   X      
   Sickening shoal   X      
   Slaughter   X      
   Terashi's grasp   X      
   Tornado   X      
   Treva's Charm   X      
   Tsabo's Decree   X      
   Twisted justice   
   Unmake   X      
   violent ultimatum   X      
   Violet pall         Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
   Wreak havoc   X      Grixis Charm
   Wrecking Ball   X      
Counterspells   Arcane denial         
   Assert authority   X      
   Common Courtesy   X   (what's the magic word ?)
   Controvert   X      
   Counterbore   X      
   Decree of silence   X      
   Deflection   X      
   Discombobulate   X      
   Dismal Failure   X   Foil   
   Dissipate   X      
   Dovescape   X      
   Dream fracture         
   Dromar's Charm   X      
   Ertai's meddling         
   Exclude   X      
   Faery trickery   X      
   Fervent denial   X      
   Foil   X      Disturbing shoal
   Grip of chaos   X      
   Induce paranoia   X      
   Last word   X      
   Null brooch   X      
   Overwhelming Intellect         
   Psychic battle   X      
   Punish Ignorance         
   Put away         
   Radiate   X      
   Rewind   X      
   Scattering stroke   X      
   Spell blast   X
   Spelljack   X      
   Spite/malice   X      
   Suffocating blast   X      
   Swift silence   X      
   Thwart   X   Commandeer
   Time stop   X      
   Vex   X      
   Wild ricochet   X      
Wrath like   Apocalypse   X      
   Austere command   X      
   Balance   X      
   Crime//punishment         
   Curse of the cabal   X      
   Decree of annihilation   X      
   Decree of pain   X      
   Dimensional Breach   X      (tic tac unwrath)
   Dregs of sorrow   X      
   Dwarven catapult   X      
   Evacuation   X      
   Final judgment   X      
   Flowstone slide   X      
   Forced march   X      
   Hail of arrows   X      
   Hour of reckoning   X      
   Jokuhlaups   X      
   March of soul   X      
   Mass calcify   X      Rout
   Neviniral's disk   X      Plague boiler
   Plague Wind   X      
   Planeswalker's scorn   X      
   Savage twister   X      
   Soulscour   X      
   Task mage assembly   X      
   Warp World   X      
   Worldpurge   X      
   Obliterate
   Startstorm
Control magic   Blatant thievery   X      
   Blind with anger   X      
   Confiscate   X      
   Dominate   X      
   Eternal dominion   X      
   Flash conscription         
   Gather specimens   X      
   Govern the guildless   X      
   Grab the reins   X      
   Insurrection   X      
   Krovikan whispers   X      
   Take Possession   X      
   Telemine performance   X      Spinal embrace
   Treacherous Urge         
   Word of seizing   X      
   Yavimaya's embrace   X      
Draw   Armistice   X      (big drawer... with a drawback... rumored too good... wait and see)
   Read the runes   X      (a nice answer to a wrath like effect)
   Nihilistic glee   X      (greed in the first place, since I re-read the card, not that huge, but quite fun)
   Heed the mists   X      
   Mind's eye   X      
   Brilliant ultimatum   X   (Acc rule RULEZ)   
   Thought reflection   X      
   Nivix, aerie of the firemind   X      
   Phyrexian etchings   X   (slow but powerful but heavy feedback... sounds perfect)   
   Tower of fortune   X      
Tutors   Aladdin's lamp   X      
   Chord of calling   X      
   Citanul Flute   X      Mikokoro, center of the sea
   Conflux   X      
   Congregation at dawn   X      
   Flash of insight   X      
   Grinning totem   X      
   Knowledge Exploitation   X      
   Memory plunder   X      
   Planar portal   X      
   Research // Development   X      
   Wild pair   X      
Damage prevention   Captain's manoever   X      
   Chant of Vitu-Ghazi   X      
   Kor haven   X      
   Panacea   X      
   Prahv, spires of the order         
   Protective sphere   X      
   Reflect damage   X      
   Reverse damage   X      
   Shield of the ages   X      
   Sun's bounty   X      (one of my favorite spell ever)
Recursion   Dawn of the dead   X      
   Death Denied   X      
   Hymn of rebirth   X      Deathrender
   Diabolic servitude   X      Debtor's knell
   Living end   X   Foil   
   Miraculous recovery   X      
   Endbringer's revel   X      (symmetry is fun !)
   Twilight's call   X      
   Yawgmoth's Agenda   X      
others   Bant charm         
   Castel Kher   X   Foil   
   Cauldron dance   X      
   Fist of suns   X      
   Flickerform   X      (the combo thing)
   Jund charm   X      
   Mindslaver   X      
   Mirari   X      
   Miren, the moaning well         
   Naya charm         
   Night soil   X      
   Notorious Throng         
   Orzhova, the church of deals         
   Pulse of the fields   X      
   Quicksilver amulet   X   Asian   
   Reviving vapors   X      
   Sprout Swarm   X      
   Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion   X      
   Svogthos, the Resless Tomb   X      (might be out quite quickly imo, but wait and see)
   Sway of the stars   X      
   Tatsumasa, dragon's fang   X      
   Time stretch   X      
   Titanic Ultimatum   X      
   Tower of eons   X      
   Vedalken orrery   X      
   Urza's factory   X      
   Winding canyons         
   Yet another Æther vortex         
Blasts   Aladdin's ring   X      
   Beacon of destruction   X      (comboes well with Armistice)
   Blast from the past   X      (rumored to be too good, but there are plenty of counters : wait and see)
   Hidetsugu's Second Rite   X      
   Inferno   X      
   Kaboom !   X      
   Resounding thunder   X      
   Searing wind   X   Foil   
   Undying flames   X      
   Soul Blast   X      Urza's rage
   Vicious shadows   X      (Rumored to be too good : we'll see. Waiting that, we had the card for free... too good to let it go)
   Parallectric feedback   X      

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