TPS players

[WhiteLotus]

Does Cruise not affect Will much?

It doesn't hurt it too much, normally if you can leave one ritual/recall/lotus in there your will's are still really broken.  You're mostly eating probes, duress, and fetchlands.

your list looks very close to mine and even closer to what I'm working on now.

I think you should add Library of alexandria, wins games where you draw it more reliably than necropotence does Imo.

4 probes are way too much especially when you have the 6 duress effects, 10 slot for hand info isn't necessary, and they suck vs Workshops and dredge. You should swap 2 probes for 2 preordain, as it improves opening hands consistency a lot better than probe does.
 I think you should also definitely add Mox opal to the deck (personally, I upped count to 2 opals) because it needs to be able to access it's 3 colors in first two turns consistently.
Especially since you only have 28 mana sources. A big part of the deck's inconsistency is having enough mana to power out it's brokeness

8 tutors are too much imo, since they are tempo negative and sometimes card negative, I think you should cut at least the consult or Mystical since they are the narrowest. although there is some merit in combining probe and topdeck tutors , I don't think it will really help you to go off as another card would, you already have more than enough tutors/ manipulation that your deck is always able to sculpt it's hand. I just don't think its a good idea to do that at the cost of a card or a good chunk of your library.

I agree with treasure cruise, I initially tried dig, but turns out the UU is really too much of a difference for this deck, even though dig is stronger effect, Cruise is less mana intensive and perfect for reloading against blue decks when you have spent all your gas on their counters. I dont think you should add a second one (although i need to test more to be sure), because Dig is usually better any time you are not delving the full amount, and treasure cruise can't be used as a bait spell in their eot to clear a path of victory. I Also don't think it's necessarily very good against shops in this deck, if you can cast it you were probably already in a position where you could setup hurkyls ftw. If a second copy were to be added to the deck it would most likely be the sideboard in any case.

-Library sounds like a great idea to fight against control decks that just draw go with 3+ counters in hand.

-I think this is the biggest spots are lists are going to differ.  I love having all 4 probes, having information on exactly what to play around at all points is so important.  And I'm not sure if this is because I'm playing against inexperienced players but it's so nice when a turn 1 probe gets misstepped and you follow it right up with a duress.  In the shops matchup I'll normally board out two of them, but even having them on the play against them is nice to see which lock piece you have to play around.

-Mox Opal is something I've been thinking about as I play but it feels like most of my games I wouldn't be able to turn on metalcraft until I'm already going off.  Now that might be different if I had 1-2 more artifacts in the deck.

-Mystical has been pretty good for me so far, not amazing, just good.  Consultation is probably getting cut though, it serves it's purpose as an emergency lotus or burning wish.  But whenever I see it in my opening hand it feels like a mulligan because you can't reasonably cast it and risk removing half your deck.

-Cruise has been amazing as a one of so far.  I don't know if you can reliably cast it twice in a game without wheel happening.  I do want access to a second one in games you know cage is coming in post board.

Overall though I'm really liking this deck so far.  I don't feel like there's any matchups that I'm completely out of.  Even the preboard shops games aren't blowouts most of the time.  Blue decks have been about 50/50.  I rarely have trouble in the combo mirror.  I haven't felt any pain not having dredge hate.

Opal seems unreliable in a vacuum but just Test it and I guarantee you are never going back, the card is just great. Especially considering we are playing a 3 color deck that is a turn 2 clock.

Cruise is a one of, I've tested a bit more and you really do not want to draw it in the early or in the opener and I can't see myself needing two of those in most games. Although you could maybe find room to fit one in the Wish board in certain situations where you are out of gas and wish flooded. It's funny you mention Cage, I haven't found the card to do anything at all vs me, With burning wish I will never have a dead Ywill in hand, and I can easily just go for Mind's Desire anyway. In any case you still have chain of vapor, hurkyls recall or shattering spree to deal with it if you really wanted to.

Loa is a win condition by itself vs blue decks ( and Uncounterable at that), It's so busted in this deck like it doesn't even compare to when they have it. it's easy to keep library active while putting pressure though duress and bait spells, while the average card you draw off library is a potential game changer. It also Gives slightly more reach to draw 7s and Necropotence.

Probe is really bad for Mulligan decisions which is one the most shaky subjects for the deck already, so adding an unknown card to a lot of hands is not what you want, on the other hand if your hand has a land and a preordain its already pretty keepable imo. Also preordain adds more consistency in general to the deck when going off or setting up.  Only a bad player would misstep a probe from this deck as it's the most expendable one drop in the deck unless they don't want you knowing they have mindbreak trap or notion thief and gamble that you don't have a duress.  The info ofc is important but you don't need info at every stage of the game in every matchup to the extent of devoting 10 slots to it or else Telepathy might be playable and it's clearly not.

Mystical and Consult ultimately didn't make the cut in my list because they couldn't get Black lotus.

The matchups are pretty decent overall but that is the result of a long road of exploring the deck back in forth between different iterations until I got to this build that I completely tossed around a number of times in regards to non auto include slots. And lately I have been adapting towards the meta shift. Also worth noting that this deck has the best sideboard in the format (Burning wish versatility and not warped by dredge hate, only cards that compensate for it's weaknesses in key matchups).
It requires extremely tight playing and can be quite susceptible to some forms of hate, which are compensated by the resiliency and the potential of outplaying it offers to a dedicated and competent pilot.
Of course the current deck is soft to hatebears but what it takes to make that matchup better isn't worth making the deck worse vs the field. Especially since its the only matchup where you actually want to destroy their creatures. And Hatebears aren't even a tier 2 strategy or a sufficient part of the metagame that you need to be prepared for it.

[jamestosetti]

That's a nice quote White Lotus. The Atog Lord took what I saying out of context, gave it new meaning, and you are going to tag this on everything you write. That is really great considering the criticism I received.

[The Atog Lord]

James, please don't derail this thread about Storm by complaining about WhiteLotus's signature. I'm sure that if you send him a polite private message, he would be happy to remove the quote.

[WhiteLotus]

I changed my Signature James, sorry if you perceived it as offensive.

Back to the original thread.

I Think the latest build I'm testing is extremely potent, The deck is really geared towards beating blue decks and in particular delver, Defense Grid is Basically like a Trinisphere vs them, they usually can't play around the grid until turn 3 and at that point they can't commit any mana during their turn or they loose, usually they try to ignore it and go full race mode, but their deck isnt close to having the same clock as this one when it's not interacted with. Other blue decks can usually play around the grid easier since they have stronger mana bases but defense grid insures they will only be able to counter one spell a turn, which is usually pretty easy to win through and in any case it's a great Force of will Bait.

On the other hand the shop matchup still remains very strong for a storm deck (This deck is much more a player against shops than Your Gush storm or Doomsday List) thanks to the raw power of the deck and a very effective sideboard plan I feel like people have misconceptions of what happens when this kinda deck and Workshops go head to head, Imo this deck has a better shop matchup than most mana drain decks). Burning Wish for shattering spree is pretty nice in g1s even though sometimes it will cost too much tempo and they will see it coming since it's likely you want to cast burning wish and spree on different turns to maximize spree. Chalice is the most potent card against the deck since you really want your artifact mana and your one drops. Game ones are inevitably close to lost on the draw, espcially since you are likely making your mulligan decisions to be strong vs blue decks. But on the play, just getting a turn to play your mana and spells unchallenged is going to put you in a great spot to be able to dig out of their locks in time to find hurkyls or spree, nuke them and win.
Post board games I feel very strongly about the matchup, even on the draw you have a good chance of getting there anyway. I have hardcasted Ingot chewer more times than I ever thought just to burn a chalice and keep a golem at bay. The deck can still produce quite some mana even through spheres and the artifact removal to support hurkyl's really makes a difference from the standard hurkyl only plan.

Burning Long aka MacDeath's fuc fest:
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
2 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Defense Grid
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 1 Mind's Desire
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

SB: 1 Island
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Scalding Tarn
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Rebuild


Propz to Adrian Becker for Library of Alexandria, the card is just insane in this deck.

[Hrishi]

To get things back on track, I was thinking I'd share my latest storm build that I've been running. I have been very impressed with how powerful it is against blue in general. In fact, I almost feel it's favored against Delver variants for how powerful it is. The problem is shops. I'm not convinced my SB strategy is working. Perhaps some of you can think of a better one!

Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

Creatures
1 Blightsteel Colossus // 1 Inkwell Leviathan // 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind (Pick your bot based on the expected metagame)

Acceleration
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

Disruption
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Mental Misstep

Cantrips
1 Ponder
2 Preordain

Broken
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

Additional Tutors
2 Grim Tutor

Bombs
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar

Finisher
1 Tendrils of Agony

Other
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Sideboard
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
4 Yixlid Jailer
3 Defense Grid

*

Notes
- As you can see, this list is sort of loosely based on the Grim Long decks of old. I've been very impressed with Grim Tutor of late, so wanted to incorporate it into a shell.
- Mental Misstep has been the biggest thorn in my side when facing any sort of blue deck. Running 4 myself makes your Duress effects so much more likely to hit, and that alone gives you a huge advantage in the match up.
- No Force of Will in the deck, even if you could argue it's necessary to fight shops. FoW just lowers your threat density so much and makes your blue matchup worse. I am seeking to fix the shop matchup in my board, so hopefully FoW will not be necessary.
- No Probes, although they could easily go back in. They were in place of the Thoughtseizes, but I wanted to try this configuration out and it seems to work decently. Probe is also awful against shops. The free information is amazing though.
- The SB plan is to board in a bunch of basics and Ancient Tombs and attempt to EoT Hurkyl's them. If successful, you should have the threat density to win on the spot.
- I stayed U/B for greater manabase stability in exchange for losing both Wheel of Fortune and Red sideboard options. I'm not sure if it's the right call, but the manabase is incredibly stable.
- Library in your opener is just insane. Thanks WhiteLotus!
- Defense Grid post-board makes the blue matchup even more unfair if you can access and resolve one.
- Maindeck bot is insane in so many matchups that I'll take the dead draw when I have the misfortune of drawing it. Sphinx is especially unbeatable for creature decks.

Questions
- Is there a better SB strategy for shops possible under these constraints? I tried Snuff Out but it wasn't great. U/B apparently don't have many good 1-for-1 answers.
- 4 Mental Misstep? It's purpose is to force through Rituals and Duresses. Thoughts?
- Four hate pieces enough for Dredge? Jailer is hard for them to interact with, it's just the Darkblasts and I have missteps for that. Plus, I can also race them.
- Can I run FoW and keep the threat density and discard power I have now? FoW would almost certainly replace the Missteps if I used them and I'm not sure that would be a good thing for the blue matchup. Thoughts?

Look forward to any replies and suggestions!

[jamestosetti]

WhiteLotus, the Shops match up being bad for TPS must be a myth. I am beating them more than with Drain decks. I like the Defense Grid Idea. If that resolves a Gush player may be in a lot trouble. I'm not sure what is happening sometimes because I ended taking Missteps out of my deck, and I can still beat blue. There are no Force of Wills either. I've been using two and three Flusterstorm. These changes are not proven through rigorous testing, but I think we are on to something here. I know that I need to write down my s/bing for each match, so that I can memorize it to a T. This is something that really rewards a player. I am also only running two dark rituals. I know that when I was playing around the start of this thread, that would not have worked out. It seems strange, so I think I am going to thoroughly test some theories I have about what is going on.

[Hrishi]

How far-fetched and crazy do you think it sounds to simply dump 4 Forces in my sideboard to bring in for shops or whatever else? I really don't want them for most matches, but they are invaluable sometimes.

[jamestosetti]

I have heard of crazier things. I think this deck will continue to be on the decline until a lot of work into it to find the optimal build every time the meta shifts. There would also need to be more people playing this deck in tournaments to say that it was given a chance. It is definitely an uphill battle. I have been playing Gush/Drain Tendrils, and I have found that certain lines of play remind me of this deck, and I can also play with Gush.
I think TPS in its original form would be a difficult deck to play in a tournament. I haven't been using Gifts Ungiven for a long time, maybe this card could help me out.

[Hrishi]

For what it's worth, I top 8'd today with a variant of the list I posted a few posts above. I actually felt favored against much of the field, save shops. Shops smashed me both games.

[WhiteLotus]

For what it's worth, I top 8'd today with a variant of the list I posted a few posts above. I actually felt favored against much of the field, save shops. Shops smashed me both games.

Did you run the sideboard from your list in this thread or did you try the spirit guide +hurkyl tech? Do you think you Los because your plan wasn't solid enough or the shops deck were just everywhere and there was simply nothing to be done.

If it was the former rather than the later, I suggest adding red to the deck, your mana stability hardly suffers and you get the tools you need to implement the hurkyls plan.

[jamestosetti]

Just some thoughts about some deck choices, HrishiQQ. Grim Tutor costs three mana causing it to be unplayable sometimes in a Shop match. If you want to use Force of Will, it may be at its best in a Gush list. Discard combined with bounce and Twister effects are really good against Shops. The meta game is somewhat tricky for these types of Storm lists right now. Against Shops, with the deck that I include the Time Vault package in, I use green because I do not focus so heavily on a Storm win. I can win with Trygon Predator, Time Vault, Tendrils, and even Blightsteel Colossus. There are only two Dark Ritual in the list I have been running, but that is because I can choose from alternate win conditions, and bait counterspells from my opponents hand with the win condition I am not really trying to win with.

My deck is a hybrid, and I would not emphasize it as the list to learn about TPS with. Moving to the s/b, I would include red as WhiteLotus suggested. You need to accumulate enough mana sources to be able to bounce the Shops player's permanents when you are ready to make a critical play. Repeal may be a good card to use, as well as Dig Through Time. Repeal can bounce a Chalice on zero, so that you can play your Moxes, draw another card, and be more prepared to cast Hurkyl's Recall.

With the prevalence of Shops and Mental Missteps, the problems are easily identifiable, therefore we can begin to work on a meta specific TPS build. One drops can be difficult to resolve, but if TPS uses Mental Missteps of its own, then it runs more blanks against Shops. An idea would be to use Hymn to Tourach, but Shop's sphere package is too dense for this to be effective in combination with the other discard spells. It would just be a top deck race to win. This may work, but it would need to be tested. I do not personally use Gifts Ungiven because it is hard to use in the Shops match. Gifts is an ideal card in this deck, so it is still worth consideration. I am certain that if players continue to brainstorm TPS builds, and optimized list for the meta will be achieved. TPS is like any other deck, if the meta shifts, it must change too.

I have also played against the build that uses Burning Wish, and it has its strengths. I have never used Burning Wish in a Storm list, so I am not the right person to be giving advice on that card at this time. However, I will test it out when I have some time. Different TPS variants are possible today, whereas in the past there was basically one build. I can identify problems that the current meta presents for some of the TPS staples, so I could either attempt to find cards that are synergistic with them in some way to make them stronger, or I can attempt to replace them with other cards. I can tell you I will be working on this issue. This is a good time to address this problem because Shops is so prevalent, and so are decks that make it difficult to utilize Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain.

TPS shares similarities with Gush Tendrils, in that sometimes you are forced to just chain spells together for storm wins. The Gush draw engine can open up a variety of plays, but the deck does not play Dark Ritual. It almost plays the opposite role of TPS, choosing to counter spells, and wait for an opportune time. This is distinctly different from a Dark Ritual strategy. The other end of that spectrum contains Ritual Doomsday. I do not personally advocate Dark Rituals in that deck, but they are obviously putting up results. This strategy is similar to what TPS would like to do. It wants to cast a Dark Ritual, and end the game as a result of some uncontested play. These decks all have their strengths and weaknesses in different meta games, but only TPS actively seeks to use Timetwister effects. It seems that giving up Force of Will to incorporate these effects should be reinforced by cards that facilitate them, as well have some strength against Blue. Whether or not Hymn to Tourach is an answer is something to be tested, but I am certain that Gitaxian Probe is a card that enables this strategy. It is difficult to say, but it is probably necessary to use educated guesses as to the composition of your opponents hand. Sometimes playing into a counter with a card you do not exactly need at the moment will allow you to resolve a bomb.

In the end, card choice effectiveness comes down to the probability of its effectiveness before the match ever starts. This is why Shops is so good. It is very probable that increasing the cost of spells while using Misrha's Workshop will be a strong play. When selecting cards for your deck, it is wise to do some meta game analysis. If you are likely to face this card or that one, then you must make the appropriate card change. This is just some basic advice, and I hope someone comes up with a build that puts up strong results.  

[WhiteLotus]

Just some thoughts about some deck choices, HrishiQQ. Grim Tutor costs three mana causing it to be unplayable sometimes in a Shop match. If you want to use Force of Will, it may be at its best in a Gush list. Discard combined with bounce and Twister effects are really good against Shops. The meta game is somewhat tricky for these types of Storm lists right now. Against Shops, with the deck that I include the Time Vault package in, I use green because I do not focus so heavily on a Storm win. I can win with Trygon Predator, Time Vault, Tendrils, and even Blightsteel Colossus. There are only two Dark Ritual in the list I have been running, but that is because I can choose from alternate win conditions, and bait counterspells from my opponents hand with the win condition I am not really trying to win with.

My deck is a hybrid, and I would not emphasize it as the list to learn about TPS with. Moving to the s/b, I would include red as WhiteLotus suggested. You need to accumulate enough mana sources to be able to bounce the Shops player's permanents when you are ready to make a critical play. Repeal may be a good card to use, as well as Dig Through Time. Repeal can bounce a Chalice on zero, so that you can play your Moxes, draw another card, and be more prepared to cast Hurkyl's Recall.

With the prevalence of Shops and Mental Missteps, the problems are easily identifiable, therefore we can begin to work on a meta specific TPS build. One drops can be difficult to resolve, but if TPS uses Mental Missteps of its own, then it runs more blanks against Shops. An idea would be to use Hymn to Tourach, but Shop's sphere package is too dense for this to be effective in combination with the other discard spells. It would just be a top deck race to win. This may work, but it would need to be tested. I do not personally use Gifts Ungiven because it is hard to use in the Shops match. Gifts is an ideal card in this deck, so it is still worth consideration. I am certain that if players continue to brainstorm TPS builds, and optimized list for the meta will be achieved. TPS is like any other deck, if the meta shifts, it must change too.

I have also played against the build that uses Burning Wish, and it has its strengths. I have never used Burning Wish in a Storm list, so I am not the right person to be giving advice on that card at this time. However, I will test it out when I have some time. Different TPS variants are possible today, whereas in the past there was basically one build. I can identify problems that the current meta presents for some of the TPS staples, so I could either attempt to find cards that are synergistic with them in some way to make them stronger, or I can attempt to replace them with other cards. I can tell you I will be working on this issue. This is a good time to address this problem because Shops is so prevalent, and so are decks that make it difficult to utilize Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain.

TPS shares similarities with Gush Tendrils, in that sometimes you are forced to just chain spells together for storm wins. The Gush draw engine can open up a variety of plays, but the deck does not play Dark Ritual. It almost plays the opposite role of TPS, choosing to counter spells, and wait for an opportune time. This is distinctly different from a Dark Ritual strategy. The other end of that spectrum contains Ritual Doomsday. I do not personally advocate Dark Rituals in that deck, but they are obviously putting up results. This strategy is similar to what TPS would like to do. It wants to cast a Dark Ritual, and end the game as a result of some uncontested play. These decks all have their strengths and weaknesses in different meta games, but only TPS actively seeks to use Timetwister effects. It seems that giving up Force of Will to incorporate these effects should be reinforced by cards that facilitate them, as well have some strength against Blue. Whether or not Hymn to Tourach is an answer is something to be tested, but I am certain that Gitaxian Probe is a card that enables this strategy. It is difficult to say, but it is probably necessary to use educated guesses as to the composition of your opponents hand. Sometimes playing into a counter with a card you do not exactly need at the moment will allow you to resolve a bomb.

In the end, card choice effectiveness comes down to the probability of its effectiveness before the match ever starts. This is why Shops is so good. It is very probable that increasing the cost of spells while using Misrha's Workshop will be a strong play. When selecting cards for your deck, it is wise to do some meta game analysis. If you are likely to face this card or that one, then you must make the appropriate card change. This is just some basic advice, and I hope someone comes up with a build that puts up strong results.  

James we are already metagaming our lists. We are playing 6 + anti control slots maindeck and 8+ sideboard cards vs shops, and eshewing cards that make the deck faster for a more resilient deck that can win through multiple counterspells. This is a different way of building storm decks compared to the decks that came before (even the most recent ones like Burning Oath).

Don't call any ritual deck TPS because that is not necessary their name or strategy, It's like comparing Landstill to Tezzeret Control because they both play mana drain x4. Tps actually plays a lot closer to gush storm than the decks we've been discussing lately which are Grim Long and Burning Long variants.

hymn to tourrach is not a card these decks will ever want imo. The idea of duress effects is info for optimal sequencing + getting rid of stuff like flusterstorm and co, tourrach doesn't really give you any info and doesn't take the card you want.

[Hrishi]

For what it's worth, I top 8'd today with a variant of the list I posted a few posts above. I actually felt favored against much of the field, save shops. Shops smashed me both games.

Did you run the sideboard from your list in this thread or did you try the spirit guide +hurkyl tech? Do you think you Los because your plan wasn't solid enough or the shops deck were just everywhere and there was simply nothing to be done.

If it was the former rather than the later, I suggest adding red to the deck, your mana stability hardly suffers and you get the tools you need to implement the hurkyls plan.

I think it was a combination of both. There was shops everywhere and I was guaranteed to face the deck. The plan might not be solid enough (it felt decent though) and I'm certainly going to be experimenting with a bunch of different plans. Red might indeed be the answer and will be something I try, but I do dislike losing access to playing Deltas and the basic swamp.

And yes, the list has multiple anti-control cards in the maindeck. I recognized that the deck can prey on blue by being both resilient and capable of forcing it's disruption through. Of course, the cost is losing maindeck cards against shops. A better sideboard plan might be the prudent course of action.

[WhiteLotus]

I strongly advise you to add red to the deck for shops, Ingot chewer's versatility really helps in my experience. You don't even have to warp your mana base, consider something like this:

5 Fetches
1 badlands/Volcanic island
2 underground sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy

and in the sb
3 Ingot Chewer
3 hurkyl/rebuild
1 island
1 mountain
1 scalding tarn

On another note, I've been running a split 1 thoughtseize/ 1 defense grid maindeck and 2 Grid/1 seize(with bwish access) sideboard. I am wondering if it wouldn't be better to simply play 2 grids main deck and another wish target instead of seizes. I think I want another enabler but I can't figure out which one. Spiral is strictly worse target than Mind's Desire. Wish for cruise seems to kinda defeat the strengths of cruise and probably a worse target than ywill most of the time. Diminishing Returns seems just awful.

Toxic deluge and Pyroclasm are options too but I'm not sure I really want that since I'm not likely to be facing Aegis, thalia and co. And killing pyromancer armies isn't really going to help my game plan at the cost of 4/5 mana.

[jamestosetti]

I understand the differences of TPS and Long variants, but it is useful to find parallels, and to identify the differences of decks. I personally do not think that the deck has an adequate number of main deck answers for Shops. Burning Wish might be better off as another bounce spell. Hymn to Tourach was just an example. It came to mind because it was played from the s/b in the past. I think Long struggles against blue, but can also be explosive enough against Shops if it is on the play. I generally prefer to have more control and to use proper timing as a means to resolve spells. I would probably not be much help with Long decks.

[Hrishi]

I understand the differences of TPS and Long variants, but it is useful to find parallels, and to identify the differences of decks. I personally do not think that the deck has an adequate number of main deck answers for Shops. Burning Wish might be better off as another bounce spell. Hymn to Tourach was just an example. It came to mind because it was played from the s/b in the past. I think Long struggles against blue, but can also be explosive enough against Shops if it is on the play. I generally prefer to have more control and to use proper timing as a means to resolve spells. I would probably not be much help with Long decks.

I do not think you are incorrect at all. Honestly I also have more experience with TPS than with Long variants. The issue with having more relevant shop cards in the main is weakening the blue matchup (which is, traditionally, your strong match). In fact, a couple threads down I attempted to build a storm list more reliant on Hurkyl's Recall, but testing showed that the cost was weakening your Delver/blue match.

It might be correct to add more Hurkyl's Recall maindeck and play with a manabase which has more stability. Will be testing for sure!

[Chaam]

So is anyone still playing TPS?

I am trying to decide if I should play a Gifts control deck or TPS. What do you guys think of the following list? Is there anything that I am blatantly missing?

Sorcery (17)
4x Duress
1x Thoughtseize
1x Ponder
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Time Walk
1x Grim Tutor
1x Timetwister
1x Tinker
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Windfall
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Mind's Desire
1x Treasure Cruise

Instant (15)
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
4x Mental Misstep
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
4x Dark Ritual
1x Cabal Ritual
1x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Rebuild

Artifacts (14)
1x Black Lotus
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Opal
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Memory Jar

Enchantments (2)
1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain

Lands (12)
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Tolarian Academy

Sideboard (15)
1x Defense Grid
1x Thoughtseize
1x Pyroblast
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rebuild
3x Ingot Chewer
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Tormod's Crypt

[TheBrassMan]

So is anyone still playing TPS?

I am trying to decide if I should play a Gifts control deck or TPS. What do you guys think of the following list? Is there anything that I am blatantly missing?

I'd love to say Gifts Control is a strong choice - it's one of my favorite decks ever - but I'm not sure anyone's found a build yet that holds up in this meta. I'm a big fan of TPS right now, this is my current list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/276527 , though I'm changing the cards up all the time.

I don't think you're missing anything 100% essential, but I would strongly consider running some of the following:

Preordain: It's real hard to cut bombs for cantrips, but they've been very good for me - I started with a handful and quickly moved to 4, they give you action on turn 1 and smooth out your draws. You may not want to run Dig Through Time, which I have in my list. It fills a similar role to cards like Wheel and Tinker, which I'm sure are just as good - but if you do want to give Dig a try, you kind of have to run Preordains or something similar.

Defense Grid: this is a metagame consideration, but Defense Grids are very strong against decks packing Mental Misstep, Flusterstorms, Mindbreak Traps. It's not too difficult to play around Spell Pierce with a Defense Grid, either. All of those cards are very popular online - if you don't see them in your meta, you may not want them. If you see a lot of Duress, Combo, Stax, or Dredge, Defense Grid doesn't help in those matchups.

Basic Lands: I see your basics in the board, but I'd be really uncomfortable running that few. I don't have a sideboard plan I'm truly happy with for TPS vs Shops, but I'm pretty sure lands are an important part of them. I haven't gotten a chance to try Chewers out of TPS yet, so I'm not sure how much basic Mountain hurts your black mana development.

Your deck will probably operate fine without any of those changes though. You'll need to tailor the list to your meta, which for TPS, I've found so far, means switching up your defensive cards, choosing which (if any) backup win conditions you want, and deciding how much space you want to dedicate to shops.

Good luck with your deck!

[jamestosetti]

TPS is a really strong deck, but the fact of the matter is that Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, and any other newer printing, have decreased the win percentage for this archetype. I basically like to cast Tendrils of Agony, so I just switched to Gush Tendrils. However, Tendrils always has a shot at winning. You just have to experiment with deck changes that are effective in the current meta.

[TheBrassMan]

TPS is a really strong deck, but the fact of the matter is that Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, and any other newer printing, have decreased the win percentage for this archetype.

I actually disagree here, in cases where your list can support Duress and Defense Grid. I think Mental Misstep and Flusterstorm are actually more damaging to other controllish decks than to TPS, which has threats with a wider variety of casting cost and card type, making it easier to push through the highly conditional counters decks are using now. (Compared to say, a current Gifts list, which in my experience kept losing to Flusterstorm and couldn't do anything about it).

On the other hand, I haven't been able to come up with any strategy for any Ritual deck which has any game against a Sphere-heavy Workshop list ... so it might be a lost cause outside of a metagame deck.

[kalisia]

The surprising thing in your list is that you don't include Gifts Ungiven.
Before the restriction, TPS usually used to play two copies of the card.
Now that Gifts is unrestricted again, if I had to play TPS, I would probably try several Gifts in the deck.

[Hrishi]

The surprising thing in your list is that you don't include Gifts Ungiven.
Before the restriction, TPS usually used to play two copies of the card.
Now that Gifts is unrestricted again, if I had to play TPS, I would probably try several Gifts in the deck.

I think that while Gifts is an incredibly powerful bomb, it is also dependent on your graveyard and your opponents are probably going to hate out the graveyard. Having multiple bombs that require a yard to "win" you the game might not be ideal. This is why I like bombs which can bypass hate such as Grafdigger's Cage because your plan A will typically be a monster Yawgmoth's Will.

That being said, I have tried Gifts in this shell and it's pretty great, outside of the problems I outlined above.

[desolutionist]

I stopped playing TPS because I feel that "going off" might as well be "jerking off"; it's time consuming, boring, repetitive, and unnecessary. Once you make the decision to storm off, the game isn't fun anymore and it's not like you spent the early game doing fun grindy things to get there. I got tired of the bored yawns from my opponents as I play solitaire; it's healthier to just play a deck like Mentor.

Some of the people I play with are quite new so maybe if you've ever played a storm deck against a new player you would know what I'm talking about.

[The Atog Lord]

it's time consuming, boring, repetitive, and unnecessary.

One could say this about any archetype. Playing Delver becomes "dumb" once you've gotten lethal on the board and decide to attack. Please try to restrict yourself to meaningful contributions, rather than dismissing the fun-value of an archetype that many people enjoy.

[jamestosetti]

TPS is a really strong deck, but the fact of the matter is that Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, and any other newer printing, have decreased the win percentage for this archetype.

I actually disagree here, in cases where your list can support Duress and Defense Grid. I think Mental Misstep and Flusterstorm are actually more damaging to other controllish decks than to TPS, which has threats with a wider variety of casting cost and card type, making it easier to push through the highly conditional counters decks are using now. (Compared to say, a current Gifts list, which in my experience kept losing to Flusterstorm and couldn't do anything about it).

On the other hand, I haven't been able to come up with any strategy for any Ritual deck which has any game against a Sphere-heavy Workshop list ... so it might be a lost cause outside of a metagame deck.

If the deck can produce the Defense Grid, that is definitely good news. Although conditional counters are good against other blue decks, at the end of the day there will still be a ton of blue decks left to face. So, if TPS is going to make the top 8, a lot will have to go right with the draws and pairings. I'm not a professional deck analyst, but I don't think TPS possesses the consistency that other decks do with their lines of play. Control decks, or even Gush Tendrils can set up what disruption they have, but they also have ways to grind out their opponents after the initial counter wars. A prime example is Gush. I think that TPS is a very powerful strategy, but it lacks the competitive advantage that Gush provides.

I have been testing Monastery Siege in Gush Tendrils, and it is actually very good. The disruption packages are not so far apart that it would be unthinkable to try in TPS as well. Its just another bomb that requires an answer, or an extreme advantage develops. TPS can also incorporate Flusterstorm, so its just a matter of where to cut one card for a Siege, if the card will work at all in the deck.

[Space_Stormy]

@TheBrassMan

I see you only run 3x FoW but with 3x Misstep and Dig Through Time in some situations how often do you find yourself locked out by your own Defense Grid? Or are the counterspells more defensive? It has been a while since I played TPS and I used to run the Duress over countermagic version.  Also if you find yourself in a more Stax/Dredge/Combo/NonblueDisruption what do you play in those flex spots? Just max out on FoW/Misstep or are there better cards?

[TheBrassMan]

I see you only run 3x FoW but with 3x Misstep and Dig Through Time in some situations how often do you find yourself locked out by your own Defense Grid? Or are the counterspells more defensive? It has been a while since I played TPS and I used to run the Duress over countermagic version. 

Note that the list I linked before ALSO has 4 Duress, which work fine with DGrid. Usually the counterspells are used to protect my own stuff, which is fine with or without a Grid.

If you do have a hand with both Grid and some number of counters, you can choose to use those counters more aggressively, before you stick the Grid. For instance, if I had Grid and Misstep in hand, I might counter a turn one Preordain out of my opponent. If I had Misstep without the Grid, I probably wouldn't.

Of course if you play Grid and then draw nothing but Forces and Missteps afterwards ... that's unfortunate, and it can definitely happen. 

Also if you find yourself in a more Stax/Dredge/Combo/NonblueDisruption what do you play in those flex spots? Just max out on FoW/Misstep or are there better cards?

You could add Force/Misstep, I think I'd rather add more threats though. The list I posted could move Tinker/Jar to the maindeck, more Hurkyls or Rituals or GTs, it depends of course on what you expect to see.

There's a lot of directions you can take. If the metagame was Stax heavy and Misstep/Flusterstorm light, I probably wouldn't be playing TPS at all. I do have a rather insane looking build I've been using to handle stax with which I'll probably post later this week ... but it's definitely not for everyone.

I actually have a TPS list that runs Monastery Mentor, which I've been happy with ... I'm thinking that could be a strong call if you're really expecting non-blue disruption to be a thing. They ignore hatebears and leylines without dropping your threat density too much.

The Dredge/Combo matchups are pretty straightforward, there's nothing really new I can offer there. Trap/Jailer/Leyline are good against dredge, Mindbreak/Flusterstorm/Discard is good against combo. I'm sure theres' some more clever way to beat those decks, but Dredge is already a strong matchup, and combo isn't super popular - I'm not sure if it's worth dedicating much maindeck space against either.

[WhiteLotus]

I see you only run 3x FoW but with 3x Misstep and Dig Through Time in some situations how often do you find yourself locked out by your own Defense Grid? Or are the counterspells more defensive? It has been a while since I played TPS and I used to run the Duress over countermagic version.

Note that the list I linked before ALSO has 4 Duress, which work fine with DGrid. Usually the counterspells are used to protect my own stuff, which is fine with or without a Grid.

If you do have a hand with both Grid and some number of counters, you can choose to use those counters more aggressively, before you stick the Grid. For instance, if I had Grid and Misstep in hand, I might counter a turn one Preordain out of my opponent. If I had Misstep without the Grid, I probably wouldn't.

Of course if you play Grid and then draw nothing but Forces and Missteps afterwards ... that's unfortunate, and it can definitely happen.  

Also if you find yourself in a more Stax/Dredge/Combo/NonblueDisruption what do you play in those flex spots? Just max out on FoW/Misstep or are there better cards?

You could add Force/Misstep, I think I'd rather add more threats though. The list I posted could move Tinker/Jar to the maindeck, more Hurkyls or Rituals or GTs, it depends of course on what you expect to see.

There's a lot of directions you can take. If the metagame was Stax heavy and Misstep/Flusterstorm light, I probably wouldn't be playing TPS at all. I do have a rather insane looking build I've been using to handle stax with which I'll probably post later this week ... but it's definitely not for everyone.

I actually have a TPS list that runs Monastery Mentor, which I've been happy with ... I'm thinking that could be a strong call if you're really expecting non-blue disruption to be a thing. They ignore hatebears and leylines without dropping your threat density too much.

The Dredge/Combo matchups are pretty straightforward, there's nothing really new I can offer there. Trap/Jailer/Leyline are good against dredge, Mindbreak/Flusterstorm/Discard is good against combo. I'm sure theres' some more clever way to beat those decks, but Dredge is already a strong matchup, and combo isn't super popular - I'm not sure if it's worth dedicating much maindeck space against either.

Why would you bother taking so many precious slots to play duress, grid AND counterspells. From my perspective Duress + grid is more than enough to play around countermagic. Imo either you want to play a fast combo deck and get away with running a higher threat density and only a few slots of disruption (In which case duress and grid are all you need), either you want to play a slightly slower deck that is able to generate card advantage and play a legitimate defensive role (wants to play missteps, flusters and fows along side a few duresses + probes).

My main concern is that the TPS (more controlish) approach has a lot more difficulties vs Gush decks due to them trying to play a card advantage/attrition game which fits perfectly into the opponent's game plan. Instead of denying the opponent interaction and closing the game quickly like a defense grid deck would.

Essentially Force of will builds are only ever so slightly better vs shops, but a lot worse vs the rest of the field.

I think Burning wish deserves far more credits, it improves the consistency and resiliency a lot more than stuff like Dig through time, all the while the red splash lets you complement the basics + hurkyl's plan with artifact removal like Ingot chewer.
I don't think dig through time is very good in these decks, I would much rather play more powerful additional threats such as Gifts ungiven or draw 7s, stop trying to make your ritual decks to be so much like mana drain decks.
There is so much room for innovation in storm lists, yet we always keep seeing the same lists over and over again with maybe 1-2 different cards, that are based off pre brainstorm's restriction lists (seriously?)

[TheBrassMan]

woah, that's an information-dense post right there.

I agree that playing an attrition game against decks with Gush/Dack is a losing proposition. It just hasn't been my experience that games play out that way. I find that the quality level in combo bombs drops off pretty rapidly after the upper tier. I would much rather have a (Necro/DT->Will) + (Duress/Force/Grid) than a (Necro/DT->Will)+(Windfall/Tinker). Of course, if you just draw a handful of disruption and never find a bomb, you're in trouble. It just hasn't happened to me enough to make me want to dip into the weaker combo enablers. Note that the list I pasted earlier is just one of 7 storm combo decks I've 3-1'd or better dailies with in the past 2 months, and I've tried other configurations that were not as effective for me.

I complete agree that Force of Will is only slightly better against Shops, and worse against most of the rest of the field - but I also think that Shops are TPS/Storm combo's worst matchup, and I'm not willing to play a deck that concedes that matchup. In some metagames that may be a worthwhile gamble, but I can't do that online, or in my local paper meta.

I tried to make Burning Wish work, but it was making progress much slower than other builds - particularly against shops, despite access to cards that are good against shops in other archetypes. I wouldn't rule out the card (I think Treasure Cruise in particular made Burning Wish a lot more flexible than it used to be), but I wasn't able to come up with any playable build myself.

I've mentioned my DTT vs Gifts feelings in another thread and won't rehash them here - but honestly I'm not blown away by either card in the deck.

[desolutionist]

I saw this post on another thread that I think is related to my vision of TPS being pretty terrible:

Roughly 11 years ago, Darren Di Battista observed a curious trend in Type I, which was that Control decks were increasingly including a "combo finish." Instead a finisher that took 4-5 turns to win the game, like Morphling, they were shifting to threats like Psychatog + Berserk, that could win in a single turn.

The dominant trend manifest in the format right now is strategic role duality and flexibility.  Not only are most of the top strategies in Vintage right now hybrid decks, but they are capable of playing multiple roles well.  Decks that are less flexible -- focused combo or focused control decks (even Dredge Aggro decks) -- are falling by the wayside in favor of seemingly 'weaker' hybrid strategies like blue angels and decks like this.  In a sense, Workshops also embody this duality, since they shift between aggro and control roles so effortlessly.  

Decks that are role flexible can exploit situations by adopting the optimal role.  Decks like Bomberman can play all three basic strategic modes in Magic (and each correlate role), which is pretty awesome if you are a good player that can suss out the optimal role in any given board state.  

smmenen is a pretty credible source in my book and I can see what he is saying about role flexibility.  Role flexibility is just too much for TPS, the deck is designed to just flip over onto the table.  Any attempt to modernize TPS has to be to give it role flexibility.  That used to mean some FoWs and a few Duresses; now it means you should play Monestary Mentor/Gush and forget Dark Ritual all together.  

Fundamentally, the objective is to win the game.  So when you honestly think about what decks have the best chance to win, you think about what decks can tango with Gush and Workshops, two highly interactive and explosive decks.  Dark Ritual is a joke of a Magic card against "Sphere of Resistance" and "Counterspell".

So right now it is just a kind of roll-the-dice strategy and not fun for the pilot when losing; not fun for the opponent when winning.  Boredom is magnified with TPS because you're either completely out of it or just have 4-of-a-kind.

No offense to anyone, I just think this deck is becoming a flop.  This is addressed to TPS Players. I was a TPS player.  Why cast a Dark Ritual, Timetwister, and Brainstorm, each time on the edge of your seat needing to draw the right cards, when you could just play that super consistent Gush strategy?