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Author Topic: TMD day one split w/ Dredge  (Read 10404 times)
sorcutt
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« on: March 22, 2009, 09:26:20 pm »

I split 1st place in TMD 13 with Dredge/Mana'd Ichorid/whatever you want to call it these days.  It was a 113 person tournament with 7 rounds of Swiss + cut to T16.

I barely took any notes and most of this is from memory.  If I played against you feel free to make any corrections to our games.  I doubt anyone wants to read a Dredge report other than a Dredge player but here it is anyways  Wink.  I'll give a full explanation of the card choices and why the list was successful after the tournament report.  Here's the list:

main (60)
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Fatestitcher
2x Sadistic Hypnotist
4x Serum Powder
4x Bridge from Below
2x Dread Return
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Unmask

side
1x Platinum Angel
4x Ingot Chewer
3x Oxidize
3x Pithing Needle
2x Darkblast
2x Contagion

Round 1 vs Nick w/ Painter

g1 - I mull to 3 and end up with 2 Bazaars and a non-dredger.  I get both Bazaars active after turn 2 and proceed to win from there.  A therapy shows me Yawg Will Echoing Truth, Thirst, and REB.  I figure he's playing painter because of the REB.
g2 - In comes the artifact hate.  I Therapy naming E.T.  I whiff and see Walk, Gifts, Volt Key, and Tinker.  On to game 3...
g3 - Back in come the Unmasks and Chalices.  I have an amazing 7 consisting of Bazaar, Unmask, and Chalice.  I Unmask him and lay the Bazaar and Chalice down.  It's nearly impossible for any deck to overcome that kind of hate from a Dredge deck on the play. 

(1-0)

Round 2 - Andy w/Bomberman

g1 - I have a solid hand but he is on the play. He has an E.E. on 0 once he sees Bazaar and gets a turn 2 Trinket Mage for Pithing needle and plays it.  On my draw step I dredge Golgari Thug who yields no dredgers and I'm pretty much screwed from there because I only have 3 cards in my hand.  4 turns to get a dredger online doesn't cut it in Type 1, especially with an E.E. on the board.  I scoop.  Great, Ichorid doesn't lose turn 1, WTF, lol?!  I can't stand having to win two post board games with Dredge; it usually doesn't work out so well.
g2 - I see hate for his hate and I win.
g3 - I have an amazing hand with Bazaar, City, Darkblast, Chewer, and 2 dredgers.  It was the best post board hand I saw all day.  That would win against 95% of the match-ups out there.  Unfortunately, he plays Leyline turn 0.  I did not expect him to play Leyline at all because he I saw Jailers and and T.C. game two.  He later tells me that he only runs 1 Leyline as in his board.  I am both pissed that he saw it and I disagree with his logic of only running it as a one of in Bomberman.  You should run 4 Leylines or no Leylines; consistency is better than a silver bullet.  He's a nice guy and he wishes me luck anyways.  Great, a loss on round two of a seven round tournament.  I figure 5-2 is not strong enough to make it so this means that I need to win out, or only draw one match-up. 

(1-1)

Round 3 - Mike French w/ MUD + a splash of artifact aggro

Mike is a really nice guy that flew all the way from Japan to see if he was a match for a relative that needed an organ transplant.  He tells me that unfortunately he was not a match for his relative.  He has some downtime before going back to Japan though, so he gets to play with expensive cardboard! 
g1 - I get a solid hand and do the dredge thing + Sadistic Hypnotist on turn 2 to make him discard his whole hand.  I win from there.
g2 - I'm not sure about the chain of events this match.  I know there was copious amounts of hate on both sides.  He played a Pithing Needle naming Bazaar and played a Crypt.  I had a City and played a Needle naming Crypt.  He plays a second Needle naming Golgari Thug.  I proceed to dredge off Thug during my draw step, informing him that a Needle doesn't affect replacement effects.  He sighs and says "yeah, I really haven't played Magic in awhile; I should probably know these things!"  We get a good laugh off that.  I proceed to Oxidize his Needle naming Bazaar and go nuts from there.  I give him some pointers on his boarding tactics for dredge decks and he is very appreciative.

(2-1)

Round 4 - Aaron w/ 5c Stax

g1 - We both mull to 5 and take up I do nutty things with Fatestichers and win game one. 
g2 - He wins it. I have no idea what happened this game.
g3 - This game takes a very long time.  He gets a Welder and a Masticore (circa Urza's Destiny) out and lays out beats.  I have Needle on Crypt and the only artifact in my graveyard is a Platinum Angel.  I almost convince him into welding in the Angel so he can crypt me.  He realizes though that he would not have an answer to Platz and she could just fly over his creatures and smash him in the face to win the game.  My Jedi Mind Tricks do not work on him though.  I end up needing to dredge up more stuff to stay afloat in the game.  This causes Serum Powder to enter my graveyard.  He promptly welds out my Needle for Powder and proceeds to Crypt me.  I'm able to stabilize, but time runs out.

(2-1-1)

Round 5 - Dan Gagooch - the mirror but w/Flame-Kin combo kill

I've played T1 and T4 with Dan for several years at a local shop.  He's a laid back, chill guy.

g1 - He wins game one via Flame-Kin kill.  He ended up having to dig pretty deep to see Flame-Kin, but he got there from Fatestitchers.  At this point I think I'm screwed because he's a lot faster than me.  Then I realized I should just leave my Unmasks and Chalices in for his spells, such as Breakthrough, Lotus, etc., and bring in a Platinum Angel.
g2 - Turn one I play Bazaar and do stuff.  His turn he plays Bazaar and passes.  My turn I play City and hardcast Cabal naming Breakthrough - bingo!  That play won me this game because he didn't see enough dredges to combo out quick enough.  A Platinum Angel finishes the job.
g3 - This was a very intense game.  Both of us emptied our libraries with crazy Fatestitcher shenanigans.  I had a better board position the entire game.  I made a huge misplay and somehow forgot to activate 2 Ichorid triggers one turn.  This would have ended the game much sooner.  I end up getting a Platz and am able to get him to 2 life.  He Dread Returns and Ingot chewer to kill my Platz and has another Return + Flame-Kin in his yard.  I am still at 20 life though and he is unable to get enough gas to finish me off.  I win my next turn.  Apparently he forgot to dredge somewhere in the match.  Thankfully I pulled it off despite sloppy play.  Platz was a huge help in this match-up.

(3-1-1)

Round 6 - Bob w/ Tez

g1 - I have the nuts and go off.  Sadistic Hypnotist was clutch in this match.  It discarded 4 of his cards and won me the game where Flame-Kin or Realm Razer/Titan would not.
g2 - I'm pretty sure I had the nuts in this game.  Bazaar + Needle for his Crypt and Darkblast for his Jailer.  At some point in this match I mistake a dredge of Stinkweed and dredge 6 instead of 5.  Bob knows that this is an honest mistake and I felt really bad for doing it.  Also, it sucked because Narco was the 6th card which had to be shuffled back into my library  Sad.  The judge gives me a warning for the action.  I don't remember how exactly the match went down but I know that my hands could not have been better.  Running 14 hate cards was awesome.

(4-1-1)

Round 7 - young guy w/ landstill (I forgot his name)

This is do-or-die time.  I need to win to make top 16.

g1 - He sees I'm running Dredge and scoops to a Therapy on stack.  I really didn't have a good idea what he was playing, but he gave me the impression he was not prepared for the match-up.
g2 - He plays Mishra's Factory and Relic of Progenitus.  I have a Chewer for his Relic and he has no blue mana after that.  I Therapy his hand away and he scoops shortly after.

(5-1-1)

I sneak into the top 16 in 15th place.

First round - Andrew with R/G/W/B beatz

Andrew pile shuffles like a champ, 2 or 3 times every time he mulls.  It tags on a lot of time to the matches, but who cares, there's no time limit post Swiss rounds.

g1 - I Serum Powder a couple of times and he puts on his 'oh crap, this is a bad match-up for me' face.  I see two Ooze creatures that remain 1/1's for the entire game.  The game would have ended much sooner if I ran the Flame-Kin kill.  Andrew and I exchange laughs over the awesomeness of THA OOOOZZZE. 
g2 - He wins game 2.  I have no recollection what happened.
g3 - He plays lots of interesting critters that are good against most decks, but not so hot against Dredge.  Children of Korlis is not enough to do the trick against Dredge.  I ended up Darkblasting it for good measure though.  At one point I make the mistake again of dredging for 6 instead of 5 on a Stinkweed.  It was the freaking second time I mistook it for a Troll.  Anyways, the judge comes over and asks me if I had gotten any warnings for the same action earlier in the day.  I manned up and said "yes, I did the exact thing in an earlier match."  He informs me that I have a second warning  for the same action.  If I make that mistake again, I will be DQ'd from the entire tournament.  That is not something I wanted to do, seeing how I made it that far.  From then on out I play painfully slow, as to not allow myself to make the same mistake again.  This obviously frustrated my future opponents, but I absolutely had to make sure I would not make the same mistake again due to fatigue from a long ass tournament.

Top 8 - Noah w/ U/G/W fish

Noah was a really laid back guy with some cool boots from Vermont.  He said he was glad he made it this far in the tournament.

g1 - I take damage from his fishy dudes but I Unmask/Therapy away the rest of his threats and overrun him with Zombies.  This was another game that would have ended much sooner with the Flame-Kin kill.  He admits that he is unprepared for the Dredge match-up.  I let him know that many of my opponents have not packed enough hate which has allowed me to progress this far.
g2 - He did not seem to pack any hate for Dredge.  I ended up playing Contagion killing two of his creatures.  The spell resolved, his creatures entered the graveyard, about 20 seconds passed and I went to move to my attack step.  Noah then announces that he will cast Force of Will, pitching Daze.  I feel kind of bad for him but I call the judge over and the judge states that since the creatures have already entered the graveyard zone it is too late to respond to Contagion.  This error may may not have cost him the game, but it definitely did completely turn the tides and allowed me to Dread Return a ridiculous 20/20 Troll.

Top 4 - Steve Menendian w/ a Grow variant

I didn't even take notes this match.  I was pretty exhausted from a long day and I was happy to be where I was.  I talked to Steve about his long ass trip here, old school Star Wars toys, and the old Decipher CCG.  Steve was hacking up a lung the entire match which caused onlookers to back up, lol.  If anyone gets sick, call it "The Smemmen!"  Steve, please correct/add to these crappy notes as you see fit:

g1 - He makes comments about Ichorid/Dredge before I sit down.  The mulliganing made all these games very long and drawn out.  I played very slowly game one due to the fact that if I made the aforementioned play error one more time I would be DQ'd.  Steve and the onlookers seemed a little frustrated by my slow play, but whatever.  That was the speed that made me comfortable and assured I would not be DQ'd for a dumb misplay.  Steve never mentioned or complained about my slow play which was nice.  I eventually over ran him with tokens and Ichorids for the win. 
g2 - I side in 14 cards including a Platz.  He makes it quite clear that he has a good hand early on.  By turn 2 he has both a Jailer and a Crypt out.  I'm able to deal with the Jailer but he Yawg Wills turn 3 and replays it ->  prompt scooping ensues.
g3 - He gets his mull on, from 6 to 5 to 4.  An opponent mulliganing is, has, and always will be, the best hate out there.  This was obviously a very anticlimactic game.  Bridge tokens + Ichorids go the distance.  "It's the nature of the beast."

I made a couple minor play errors during the match, but they were inconsequential in the end.  I was absolutely beat after that match.

Finals w/ Matt McNally w/ Tez

Matt and I have known and bashed each other for years, all in good fun.  We used to play a lot at Sam Best's old shop in Meriden.  He initially states that he wants to play it out.  I say "fuck you Matt, you would." Upon learning that if we agree to a split he will be declared victor due to better standing, he agrees to the split.  I couldn't care less about a tittle.  We each get $588.  He had to split his winnings so I ended up walking away without a tittle but with more cash anyways.

Now, onto the decklist discussion:
The maindeck is more of a disruptive control styled Dredge deck than a combo deck.  Unmask and Chalice were pure gold all day.  I opted to cut the Flame-Kin combo kill for Sadistic Hypnotist.  In testing, Flame-Kin was more of an "all-in" combo strategy that did not suit my playstyle.  Hypnotist has three things going for him:
1. Surprise factor - no one knew what his ability was and some opponents did not make correct decisions when they saw him hit the yard.
2. He doesn't need 6 tokens out to be good -  Let's face it, unless you're playing the uber-agressive Chrome Mox/Breakthrough version of the Dredge deck, Flame-Kin is going to suck in a lot of match-ups.  If you have 6 tokens out, chances are your board position is so good there is no reason you should lose the game anyways.  Hypnotist only needs 1 or 2 Zombie tokens/creatures out to dump an opponent's hand (don't forget, you can sac him to his own ability for another 2 card discard).  This strategy is pretty strong against decks like Tez and Combo.  If your Flame-Kin kill fizzles, those decks are most likely going to kill you next turn.  If you can get off 2 Hypnotist activations, in combination with Therapy, you're all set. 
3. He pitches to Unmask - meh, it was relevant in at least 3 games. 

In reality, no matter what Dread Return target you chose, albeit Flame-Kin, Titan, Razor, Troll, Angel of Despair, Hypnotist, etc., you will probably have the game locked up anyways had you not D.R.'d anything.  I probably would not run Hypnotist again.  He usually just sat in my graveyard while I animated a 13/13 Troll or got boarded out games 2 and 3.  Fatestitcher was amazing every game one.  He adds enough speed to consistently give you the game 1 victory.  It's almost imperative that Ichorid wins game one.  Overcoming the 2 following games of hate is never an easy task.  Ichorid's primary strength game 1 is in it's consistency; if you find a Bazaar, you can pretty much lay down some disruption and auto-pilot it to victory.  If you're running Unmask you should always activate Bazaar the turn it comes into play.  I often dug up either an Unmask or fodder for the Unmask I was holding.  Also, you need to be aggressive with Unmask - if you have an Unmask, and your only fodder for it is a Bridge, screw the Bridge.  Pitching it for Unmask would just about always be the correct call against any deck.

Now for the sideboard:

The most noticeable feature is the complete lack of Leyline/Planar Void disruption.  Going into this TMD I had a very strong suspicion both these cards would not be making an appearance in anyone's deck.  That suspicion was right.  Out of the 10 total opponents I faced for the day, a only singular Leyline was present in one opponent's deck.  My suspicion was founded on the premise that Leyline had barely made an appearance of the last 20 major top 8's therefore, no one is going to run it at TMD.  With freed up room from Leyline hate, I devoted a solid 10 spots to Crypt/Relic of Progenitus hate.  Those are were the most prevalent Dredge hate cards in the last 20 top 8's.   Chewer is great because he can't be targeted from Duress and you can D.R. him to blow up annoying artifacts such as Time Vault/Painter's Servant.  Oxidize is good because you can blow up one piece of a 2 part artifact-combo at instant speed (not to mention taking out Crypt/Relic).  Pithing Needle is obviously more of a utility card and it's good when you're on the draw.  Shutting down Wastes, Welders, Trikes, and a slew of other annoying activated abilities is always handy.

I devoted 4 slots to Jailer hate. Two Darkblasts and two Contagions proved to be the correct number.  I hate that ugly looking little wizard bastard.  Damn your scrawny white ass to hell. 

Platz was pretty strong and I'm glad I included it.  It makes people waste their Echoing Truths/other bounces and creature removal on Angel while your Bridge tokens and Ichorids go to town.  It's a strategy many of opponents did not expect and it threw some of their post board strategies off balance.

Here was the general board plan:
game 2
- 3 Fatestitcher, -4 Unmask, -4 Chalice    +4 Chewer, +3 Oxidize, +3 Pithing Needle, +1 Platz

in addition, if I saw a black source game 1:
-1 Hypnotist, -1 Thug, -1 Ichorid          +2 Darkblast, +2 Contagion -1 Needle

Game 3:

Bring back in the Unmasks and Chalices and cut what needs to be cut. My sideboard and proper metagaming definitely won me this tournament. 

Thank you Ray for hosting another well run TMD.  The judges were great and every player I faced was fun to play against and courteous.

Closing sentiments about Dredge - "it's the nature of the beast" pretty much sums it up.  You win a lot of game 1's and you have to eek by a lot of game 2/3's.  It's not the best deck in the format, but for $50-$60 it does a damn good job.

-Sean
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 10:30:03 pm by sorcutt » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2009, 09:39:04 pm »

Is there a game missing from from round 4.  It said you won game one and then to went to time, but you marked at as a draw.
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2009, 09:40:08 pm »

Is this something I should have known about already, or did you invent an entirely new Ichorid deck?  I mean, DAMN.  This thing looks like a house.  Congratulations.

Oh, and I was amused by this one:
Quote
Steve never mentioned or complained about my slow play which was nice.
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2009, 10:18:41 pm »

Is this something I should have known about already, or did you invent an entirely new Ichorid deck?  I mean, DAMN.  This thing looks like a house.  Congratulations.

Meadbert put up an extremely similar build in his thread a while back.  The changes between the 2 that I can see are:
-4 leyline, -1 dread return, -1 hypno
+1 stitcher, +1 gemstone, +4 Unmask

and a completely reworked sideboard.

I really like what you did.  I guess reliance on will is much lower than it has been in recent past, easily making room for leylines to come out.  The only other match that matters for is ichorid, which you have plats and needles for.  Great job with the deck.

Also, aggro-control/combo does well at yet another waterbury.  At least Stephen was right about that.
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2009, 11:00:23 pm »

Quote
g3 - I have an amazing hand with Bazaar, City, Darkblast, Chewer, and 2 dredgers.  It was the best post board hand I saw all day.  That would win against 95% of the match-ups out there.  Unfortunately, he plays Leyline turn 0.  I did not expect him to play Leyline at all because he I saw Jailers and and T.C. game two.  He later tells me that he only runs 1 Leyline as in his board.  I am both pissed that he saw it and I disagree with his logic of only running it as a one of in Bomberman.  You should run 4 Leylines or no Leylines; consistency is better than a silver bullet.

To be fair, you're the one who signed up for a tournament playing ichorid with exactly 0 answers to a Leyline of the Void so you knew going in that if someone started a game with a Leyline you were left to 1 power beatdown. Coincidentally playing no answers to leyline also means you can't complain when you lose to one.

Playing 1 Leyline of the Void is actually totally fine, because it means that you can play more flexible ichorid hate while also being diverse. You can build a real sideboard then jam in 1 Leyline and be in a position where you are happy if your opponent sideboards in Emerald Charm or Wispmare or whatever answer they have to leyline because its going to be a blank so often for them while also having that random shot at locking them out completely the times that they don't sideboard to beat your singleton.
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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2009, 11:12:09 pm »

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I manned up and said "yes, I did the exact thing in an earlier match."  He informs me that I have a second warning  for the same action.  If I make that mistake again, I will be DQ'd from the entire tournament.
I assume "DQ" here actually means "receive a Game Loss"?  Otherwise, what the hell is going on?  The upgrade path for Game Rules Violations is Warning - Warning - Game Loss - Match Loss before it would ever get to that point.

Edit: I agree with running a weird mix of Ichorid hate to beat whatever they side in.  Richard Feldman in a few articles said it was pretty much the best way to go.
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2009, 11:58:08 pm »

No worries about the FoW play Sean Smile. With my SB those games were kinda akin to bring a knife to a Plasma Cannon fight so I really don't think that would have pulled it out for me. Good games though and I do really like your build (though I know nothing about how to play Ichorid properly). I have a question to pick your brain as an Ichorid Pilot. Is there any good non-artifact and non-Black hate for Ichorid out there that Fish could play? I've been thinking of Wheel Of Sun and Moon, but I'm not sure about that. Honor The Fallen? Ideas for me *twiddles thumbs*?
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2009, 12:21:44 am »

Gifts-era Bomberman used Honor the Fallen.  It was pretty good, but it's a little slow.  What about just running a mix of EE, Crypt and Relic?
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2009, 02:00:54 am »

I play a painter-styled deck, and my sb is like this:

3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
4 Ingot Chewer
4 others.

When I run TPS, I play this:

3 Leyline otV
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
...

I've always in a good position against Ichorid, and until now I never lost to Ichorid. Surprised

Gratulations for the "victory"!
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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2009, 09:44:12 am »

No worries about the FoW play Sean Smile. With my SB those games were kinda akin to bring a knife to a Plasma Cannon fight so I really don't think that would have pulled it out for me. Good games though and I do really like your build (though I know nothing about how to play Ichorid properly). I have a question to pick your brain as an Ichorid Pilot. Is there any good non-artifact and non-Black hate for Ichorid out there that Fish could play? I've been thinking of Wheel Of Sun and Moon, but I'm not sure about that. Honor The Fallen? Ideas for me *twiddles thumbs*?

I'm not an ichorid *or* fish player 99% of the tide, but what about 'Morningtide'?
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2009, 10:37:31 am »


Round 7 - young guy w/ landstill (I forgot his name)

This is do-or-die time.  I need to win to make top 16.

g1 - He sees I'm running Dredge and scoops to a Therapy on stack.  I really didn't have a good idea what he was playing, but he gave me the impression he was not prepared for the match-up.
g2 - He plays Mishra's Factory and Relic of Progenitus.  I have a Chewer for his Relic and he has no blue mana after that.  I Therapy his hand away and he scoops shortly after.

(5-1-1)


Just wanted to fix this a little...
1) My name is AJ Grasso and I'm 22
2) Game one you mull to 5 on the play, activate bazaar and pass. I wasteland the bazaar. You savagely top deck the 2nd Bazaar...(as you told me after the match).
3) Game 2 was an oxidize not a chewer.
4) Congrats on your progress through the T16 and your final table appearance, Well done!  Very Happy
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2009, 11:01:36 am »

To be fair, you're the one who signed up for a tournament playing ichorid with exactly 0 answers to a Leyline of the Void so you knew going in that if someone started a game with a Leyline you were left to 1 power beatdown. Coincidentally playing no answers to leyline also means you can't complain when you lose to one.

I see your point.  I was mainly upset because it was the best post-board hand I saw all day and Leyline decided to rear it's ugly head then and there.

Quote
Playing 1 Leyline of the Void is actually totally fine, because it means that you can play more flexible ichorid hate while also being diverse. You can build a real sideboard then jam in 1 Leyline and be in a position where you are happy if your opponent sideboards in Emerald Charm or Wispmare or whatever answer they have to leyline because its going to be a blank so often for them while also having that random shot at locking them out completely the times that they don't sideboard to beat your singleton.

I realize the merit in diversity of Ichorid hate.  I think Bomberman would be better off sticking with the artifact/Jailer package.  It already runs Pithing Needle, Explosives, and one Crypt in the mainboard.  His Ichorid hate sideboard package was 1x Leyline, 1x Crypt, 2x Jailers.  I would replace Leyline with Crypt in the sideboard.  It's extremely strong in that deck because it can be tutored from Trinket Mage and recurred for free by Auriok Salvagers.  Plus he has a hard time casting it if he sees it via a draw.  That's my reasoning for not liking that tactic in Bomberman.  I see the singleton Leyline strategy occasionally being good in sideboards of other decks, such as grow, Tez, and even Stax.

I assume "DQ" here actually means "receive a Game Loss"?  Otherwise, what the hell is going on?  The upgrade path for Game Rules Violations is Warning - Warning - Game Loss - Match Loss before it would ever get to that point.

I don't think the judge was clear enough here then.  I know it was only my second infraction of the day and he made it seem like I would be kicked out of the tournament if I did it again.  That's why I played at a snail's pace for the rest of the finals.

I play a painter-styled deck, and my sb is like this:

3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
4 Ingot Chewer
4 others.

When I run TPS, I play this:

3 Leyline otV
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle

Those are extremely strong Ichorid packages.  They also kick the shit out of random decks like threshold-aggro, that rely on Life from the Loam and the Bazaar/Squee engine.  In addition Relic, Crypt, and Needle, are utility cards vs. other decks.

Is there any good non-artifact and non-Black hate for Ichorid out there that Fish could play? I've been thinking of Wheel Of Sun and Moon, but I'm not sure about that. Honor The Fallen? Ideas for me *twiddles thumbs*?

Wheel of Sun and Moon is decent, as is Morningtide, and Honor the Fallen.  They're definitely not as strong as Planar Void, Jailer, Crypt, Relic, and Leyline.  You could run Faerie Macabre.  It's usage is colorless and can be played at instant speed.  There are many situations where that would slow an Ichorid deck down considerably.  If I had only one dredger or two dredgers in my graveyard, you could play it in response to a Bazaar activation and really screw the my tempo up.  The thing is, it's only a temporary solution for the inevitable.  I'm sure someone will find some other neat graveyard hate.  Those were really fun games Noah!


Thanks  for clarifying that AJ. I wish our games could have been a little more interactive.
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2009, 11:34:24 am »

Thanks  for clarifying that AJ. I wish our games could have been a little more interactive.

You were playing Ichorid! LOL

Just a question, do you auto scoop to leyline? I'm not seeing an obvious answer from your list. Sorry if this has already been covered in the thread.
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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2009, 11:58:54 am »

Just a question, do you auto scoop to leyline? I'm not seeing an obvious answer from your list. Sorry if this has already been covered in the thread.

It pretty much is an auto-loss.  I could be a douche and try to pums out sexy 1/1's like Thugs, Narcos, and even the saucy 1/2 Stinkweed, but let's be serious, a 20 turn clock doesn't cut it against any deck in any format.
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2009, 12:09:39 pm »

I assume "DQ" here actually means "receive a Game Loss"?  Otherwise, what the hell is going on?  The upgrade path for Game Rules Violations is Warning - Warning - Game Loss - Match Loss before it would ever get to that point.

I don't think the judge was clear enough here then.  I know it was only my second infraction of the day and he made it seem like I would be kicked out of the tournament if I did it again.  That's why I played at a snail's pace for the rest of the finals.

At one point I make the mistake again of dredging for 6 instead of 5 on a Stinkweed.  It was the freaking second time I mistook it for a Troll.  Anyways, the judge comes over and asks me if I had gotten any warnings for the same action earlier in the day.  I manned up and said "yes, I did the exact thing in an earlier match."  He informs me that I have a second warning  for the same action.  If I make that mistake again, I will be DQ'd from the entire tournament.  That is not something I wanted to do, seeing how I made it that far.

I don't think that DQ was ever mentioned. You would have had to commit that infraction 3 more times for that to happen. It was stated that if you committed that infraction again it would be upgraded to a more severe penalty. If you interpreted that as DQ then I probably wasn't clear and I am sorry. If you did do it again the penalty would have been upgraded to a game loss. When you were asked if you had gotten any earlier warning you were required to tell the truth (lying to a judge will get a player DQ'd). I don't want to sound like I was trying to trap you but I already knew about the prior penalty. Anyway Congrats on an excellent finish.
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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2009, 12:23:54 pm »

if you're only going to play 1 enchantment shouldn't that enchantment be planar void so you're not so dependant on having it in your opening hand?  with void, you can draw it later or tutor for it and play it on turn 1 or 2 which may be soon enough to save you games 2 and 3.

How do you feel about tabernacle at pendrell vale as a hate card for ichorid?
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2009, 12:24:18 pm »

Is there any good non-artifact and non-Black hate for Ichorid out there that Fish could play? I've been thinking of Wheel Of Sun and Moon, but I'm not sure about that. Honor The Fallen? Ideas for me *twiddles thumbs*?

The worst cards are basically leyline combined with something like extirpate.   Everything else is easily therapy-able.  Sticking to the constraints there are some annoying cards like Samurai of the Pale Curtain (shuts off Ichorids and Bridges but not dredge), Gaddock Teeg (shuts off Dread Return, Contagion), Glowrider (makes is difficult to cast spells in the manaless version).  You need to have: More than 1 hate card, more than 1 type of hate card, and some pressure.  Most people will have Chain of Vapor so if you don't double down on hate, you'll just get it Therapied or unmasked away when they can cast chain.  You could just give the matchup away if you think you can't satisfy those 3 conditions.  There are a lot of sideboard spots available if you do that.  It is not a recommendation but I am raising the possibility.  Most every game I lost all weekend (and they numbered many) consisted of my opponent having at least 3 different sideboard cards.  I won't keep many hands that can't deal with 1 hate card; most hands can squirm through 2 if there's not enough pressure but 3 is a bit ridiculous.
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2009, 12:39:09 pm »

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I manned up and said "yes, I did the exact thing in an earlier match."  He informs me that I have a second warning  for the same action.  If I make that mistake again, I will be DQ'd from the entire tournament.
I assume "DQ" here actually means "receive a Game Loss"?  Otherwise, what the hell is going on?  The upgrade path for Game Rules Violations is Warning - Warning - Game Loss - Match Loss before it would ever get to that point.

Edit: I agree with running a weird mix of Ichorid hate to beat whatever they side in.  Richard Feldman in a few articles said it was pretty much the best way to go.

I was watching the game when he received the warning and the judge did tell him he'd receive a game loss if he screwed up again. Just to clarify.
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2009, 07:47:28 pm »

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How do you feel about tabernacle at pendrell vale as a hate card for ichorid?

I'm pretty sure it's close to useless against Ichorid because it's an "at the beginning of your upkeep" trigger.  There won't be any Ichorids to destroy because their come into play ability is an "at the beginning of your upkeep" trigger, as well.  The Ichorid would have to already be in play at the beginning of your upkeep for Tabernacle to have a meaningful trigger.  Besides, they can just make an army of Bridge tokens in one turn with Cabal Therapy and Dread Return.  It would be much better if you had to pay one in your attack step in order to attack.
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« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2009, 07:58:54 pm »

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How do you feel about tabernacle at pendrell vale as a hate card for ichorid?
  It would be much better if you had to pay one in your attack step in order to attack.

Which is why Propaganda is the nuts vs Ichorid.
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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2009, 10:00:02 pm »

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Which is why Propaganda is the nuts vs Ichorid.

The problem with Propaganda is the mana cost.  At three mana, it's very vulnerable to Chalice at zero and can be Therapied or Unmasked out of your hand before your close to being able to cast it.  The effect is amazing against Ichorid but it has legitimate downsides.
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2009, 11:00:09 pm »

Hey Sean,

I was your round one opponent in the swiss.  Sorry if I acted frustrated after our match finished, I'm something like 0-10 vs Ichorid in the last six months.

For reference, my opening hand on the draw G3 was:

Land
Mox
Time Walk
Extirpate
Tormod's Crypt
Trinisphere
Tinker

Unmask + Chalice definitely locked me out of that game, since my subsequent draws were black lotus into ancestral into mox, mox, crypt #2.

Congrats on the strong finish, and good deck choice.

-Nick
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2009, 11:25:11 pm »

Samurai doesn't seem half-bad actually and it is a creature too and thus fits in to the fish mold. I'll give it some consideration. I don't think turn 2 is too late to lay something on the table that can stop Ichorid's strategy. I do agree that turn 3 is too late however, and thus propaganda does not get the nod.

Question: Would Relic Of Progenitus really be that bad in a deck running Tarmogoyf? It avoids Chalice at 0 and cantrips to boot. Would you run some mix of Relic + Crypt and perhaps Samurai in your SB and side OUT Tarmogoyf because of the anti-synergy?

If we are cool with a three mana answer why not try Dueling Grounds?
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2009, 11:26:05 pm »

Hi. I was your opponent for the first round of top 16.

Just to clarify, you received the warning from the judge in the first game.
He said that if you made another mistake, you would get a game loss, not a DQ.

Game two, I dropped some guys, then Children, then Thorn, then a Jailer, which prompted a scoop.

Also, Game three, you kept a seven card hand with double Bazaar,
then proceeded to dredge out four Narcomoeba on turn two with triple Bridge from Below in the graveyard,
Therapy, and Dread Return for Platinum Angel. lol

I enjoyed our games, despite playing against Ichorid.
Next time, I will bring more hate.

Congratulations on your split!


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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2009, 11:47:12 pm »

I don't think that DQ was ever mentioned. You would have had to commit that infraction 3 more times for that to happen. It was stated that if you committed that infraction again it would be upgraded to a more severe penalty. If you interpreted that as DQ then I probably wasn't clear and I am sorry.

It's no problem, it was my mistake.


Thanks for all the congratulations everyone!  Chances are I will be running something that will be slightly more interactive next time. Smile
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« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2009, 12:45:03 am »

I assume "DQ" here actually means "receive a Game Loss"?  Otherwise, what the hell is going on?  The upgrade path for Game Rules Violations is Warning - Warning - Game Loss - Match Loss before it would ever get to that point.

I don't think the judge was clear enough here then.  I know it was only my second infraction of the day and he made it seem like I would be kicked out of the tournament if I did it again.  That's why I played at a snail's pace for the rest of the finals.

At one point I make the mistake again of dredging for 6 instead of 5 on a Stinkweed.  It was the freaking second time I mistook it for a Troll.  Anyways, the judge comes over and asks me if I had gotten any warnings for the same action earlier in the day.  I manned up and said "yes, I did the exact thing in an earlier match."  He informs me that I have a second warning  for the same action.  If I make that mistake again, I will be DQ'd from the entire tournament.  That is not something I wanted to do, seeing how I made it that far.

I don't think that DQ was ever mentioned. You would have had to commit that infraction 3 more times for that to happen. It was stated that if you committed that infraction again it would be upgraded to a more severe penalty. If you interpreted that as DQ then I probably wasn't clear and I am sorry. If you did do it again the penalty would have been upgraded to a game loss. When you were asked if you had gotten any earlier warning you were required to tell the truth (lying to a judge will get a player DQ'd). I don't want to sound like I was trying to trap you but I already knew about the prior penalty. Anyway Congrats on an excellent finish.
If you already knew about the earlier infraction, why ask?  It does seem like you're trying to trap the player.
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« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2009, 01:23:00 am »

If you are already running green for tarmogoyf, and you can consistently get green mana online, Elephant Grass is the nuts against ichorid... at least in my legacy enchantress deck (I play mostly legacy). I don't think I've ever lost a match vs ichorid with it.
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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2009, 01:29:49 am »

If you are already running green for tarmogoyf, and you can consistently get green mana online, Elephant Grass is the nuts against ichorid... at least in my legacy enchantress deck (I play mostly legacy). I don't think I've ever lost a match vs ichorid with it.

I like your avatar, and will seriously consider your feedback because of this.
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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2009, 01:43:23 am »

I realize the merit in diversity of Ichorid hate.  I think Bomberman would be better off sticking with the artifact/Jailer package.  It already runs Pithing Needle, Explosives, and one Crypt in the mainboard.  His Ichorid hate sideboard package was 1x Leyline, 1x Crypt, 2x Jailers.  I would replace Leyline with Crypt in the sideboard.  It's extremely strong in that deck because it can be tutored from Trinket Mage and recurred for free by Auriok Salvagers.  Plus he has a hard time casting it if he sees it via a draw.  That's my reasoning for not liking that tactic in Bomberman.  I see the singleton Leyline strategy occasionally being good in sideboards of other decks, such as grow, Tez, and even Stax.

I'm the Bomberman player. My board was 2 Jailer, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Leyline, 1 Relic, and I had 1 Tormod's, 1 EE, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Echoing Truth and Strip Mine in the main as far as relevant cards go.

My theory obviously was that of diversity, and the reason that one Leyline isn't a Crypt is because if I am casting a Trinket Mage, I'm going to go for one of the two Crypts that are already in my deck, or in some cases the Relic/EE/Needle depending on what's more relevant. Having a third one there is irrelevant. And while Crypt is generally better than Leyline to draw later (though not strictly so considering CotV), Leyline is much better in the openner. Plus, I don't keep an opening hand that doesn't have at least one hate card plus some sort of business, so if I ever draw Leyline beyond that chances are the game has progressed to a point where I'm in a good position to cast it since whatever hate card I had in the opener probably bought me some time. However, if I'm not in a position to cast it, at least my chances of drawing it as a dead card are pretty slim since I'm not running the full 4. In all honesty though that 1 Leyline would normally be something against a completely different deck, since I already have a bunch of hate in the main, but I predicted a huge Ichorid turnout last weekend and it was absolutely true, even though I only played against it the one time.

If it makes you feel any better though, I lost with pretty much the best hand you could ask for in a control mirror. Library, Sapphire, Ancestral on the draw. I don't even remember the other stuff but it included at least Tinker and Tezzeret.

if you're only going to play 1 enchantment shouldn't that enchantment be planar void so you're not so dependant on having it in your opening hand?  with void, you can draw it later or tutor for it and play it on turn 1 or 2 which may be soon enough to save you games 2 and 3.

That could be true in other decks but it's not so hot in Bomberman.
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« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2009, 05:46:33 am »

Question: Would Relic Of Progenitus really be that bad in a deck running Tarmogoyf? It avoids Chalice at 0 and cantrips to boot. Would you run some mix of Relic + Crypt and perhaps Samurai in your SB and side OUT Tarmogoyf because of the anti-synergy?

I would (and did) mix Relic and Crypt in my Sideboard, but I ran Wheel of Sun and Moon as the other hate card. I would side out Goyf, due to you just need to stop Ichorid and can win anytime afterwards. You don't need to do it fast, you can't race Ichorid with Fish with or without Goyf, but you can stall or stop them with enough hate.
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