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kingpete
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2009, 01:23:05 pm » |
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Are you unbanned on the starcity forums yet? Also, great article! Ive proxied up teps after having thurmans with you and mark there to convince me to try vintage and i must say its a really powerful strategy and that this article helped shed some light on how to play the deck. Whats the thought process behind inkwell leviathan instead of DSC? I feel like thats something i missed somewhere.
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M.Solymossy
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Sphinx of The Steel Wind
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2009, 01:46:04 pm » |
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Are you unbanned on the starcity forums yet? Also, great article! Ive proxied up teps after having thurmans with you and mark there to convince me to try vintage and i must say its a really powerful strategy and that this article helped shed some light on how to play the deck. Whats the thought process behind inkwell leviathan instead of DSC? I feel like thats something i missed somewhere.
I can't really talk for Steve, but I can give my insight to the Inkwell. #1) It's blue: This is huge for a deck that WANTS to draw blue cards to support Force of Will. #2) It has shroud. Usually,the decks you want to tinker against are playing Mana Denial. This is either Shops or Fish. These fish decks play STPs and shops play welders, making Shroud enormous.
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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Mith
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2009, 04:53:07 pm » |
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Any chance of a decklist? Those of us without premium wouldn't mind getting in on the discussion 
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"Never let your sense of morals keep you from doing what's right." -Salvor Hardin
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M.Solymossy
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Sphinx of The Steel Wind
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2009, 05:11:54 pm » |
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Any chance of a decklist? Those of us without premium wouldn't mind getting in on the discussion  Unfortunately, Steve has requested, and I'm sure he will again, that we not post decklists.
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2009, 06:17:22 pm » |
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Are you unbanned on the starcity forums yet? Also, great article! Ive proxied up teps after having thurmans with you and mark there to convince me to try vintage and i must say its a really powerful strategy and that this article helped shed some light on how to play the deck. Whats the thought process behind inkwell leviathan instead of DSC? I feel like thats something i missed somewhere.
Nope still banned. I have no intention of getting unbanned though. Leviathan is actually just amazing. There are a number of reasons. obvious pros to Inkwell: 1) Can't be bounced by Waterfront Bouncer, Chain of Vapor, or Echoing Truth (or even wipe away), etc. 2) can't be welded by Goblin Welder 3) can be pitched to Force/Misd Downsides: 1) doesn't shuffle in like DSC and prevent decking by brain freeze, etc. 2) can't win a dsc standoff. 3) is a turn slower. The downsides really don't matter. The upsides are huge. I actually think that Karn gets alot better in the Leviathan format, though.
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Marske
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Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2009, 06:24:38 pm » |
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This could be way of topic but:
@Smmenen, Well if you're still bannend on the SCG forums let me say it on TMD:
This is one of the best articles I've read about TPS. Along with your other "primers", they have helped me understand the deck a whole lot better. I think you are right on about some of the traps and play errors people tend to make, I know I made many errors in judgement about how to handle certain matchups (as we discussed in PM's on TMD).
I think this article also tapped into the psychological aspect of playing magic. I know some people have talked about this before (Flores, Chapin) but I think it's pretty different depending on the format you play in. I for one would love to see a more indepth article about this at some point, TPS as a deck lends itself perfectly for this kind of thing because you can basically "bluff" and play mind games because people won't know if you can get critical mass etc.
Back on-topic: I see the upsides to leviathan but remain a bit skeptical (will test it out though) the extra turn it takes to win has proved to be a real problem against certain decks overhere in Europe but it does deserve more testing. Do you still think Leviathan is good when faced with a lot of Shops, Fish and decks that pack Edict / Goyf ? I know the Leviathan tramples but getting your DSC blocked with a 4/5 goyf still gets you 6 damage whilst the leviathan just does 2 and needs yet another extra turn to seal the deal.
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Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane. "Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines 
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andrewpate
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2009, 09:29:12 pm » |
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Note that one more situation where Leviathan shines is against Darksteel Colossus. If you get a swing in with Leviathan, then they Tinker for Colossus, you can unblockably hit two more times and race. A Colossus in that situation would create a stalemate. LSV actually won a game because of this situation as you can read in his most recent report. This has also happened to me at least one or two times in testing.
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kingpete
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2009, 01:48:34 am » |
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Where's LSV's vintage report?
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OwenTheEnchanter
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2009, 03:10:33 am » |
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I don't think the Darksteel Colossus/Inkwell Leviathan discussion is cut and dry, if everyone agrees that Inkwell is superior then id gladly play DSC and win the race everytime (as a previous poster pointed out). Also in Tez, being able to discard DSC to Thirst and still Tinker for him later is pretty relevant.
I do beleive that in the future all blue decks that play the disadvantage tutors and Merchant Scroll should play Rebuild over Echoing Truth.
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IDK why you're looking for so much credibility: You top 8ed a couple tournaments. Nice Job!
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2009, 02:16:07 pm » |
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I don't think the Darksteel Colossus/Inkwell Leviathan discussion is cut and dry, if everyone agrees that Inkwell is superior then id gladly play DSC and win the race everytime (as a previous poster pointed out). Also in Tez, being able to discard DSC to Thirst and still Tinker for him later is pretty relevant.
I do beleive that in the future all blue decks that play the disadvantage tutors and Merchant Scroll should play Rebuild over Echoing Truth.
Personally, I am looking at Hurkyl's over Rebuild in Tez. I don't really want to be bouncing my own Tops and Vault or Key and DSC and crap.
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Team Meandeck Team Serious LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2009, 02:25:59 pm » |
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Against decks where Tinker --> Large Man matters most -- creature-based decks -- Darksteel Colossus is also likely to take three turns to kill the opponent. Fish likely has enough toughness to toss in front of the big man to buy a third turn. The matchups where it might matter most are against decks like Goblins and Zoo, which do not have Islands and also may actually be able to kill the destructible Leviathan.
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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Smmenen
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2009, 03:24:13 pm » |
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I don't think the Darksteel Colossus/Inkwell Leviathan discussion is cut and dry,
I may have created the wrong impression. It's definitely a context dependent decision. Given the immediate context, I think Leviathan is a better choice.
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kingpete
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2009, 04:22:02 pm » |
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But... ones an 11/11 that basically never dies and the other is a 7/11 that cant be targeted?
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kingpete
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2009, 04:47:34 pm » |
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I guess im not really understanding the argument, is there a thread about this anywhere that ive missed?
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2009, 05:09:53 pm » |
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Darksteel Colossus effectively 'dies' to all common removal in the format, which focuses on removing creatures from the game, returning them to their controller's hand, or exchanging them with an artifact in the graveyard. The argument focuses on the difficulty of dealing with Inkwell Leviathan relative to the loss of 4 points of power (and the extra turn needed to kill as a result).
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Tha Gunslinga
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De-Errata Mystical Tutor!
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2009, 05:29:21 pm » |
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One thing I like about Inky is that I can weld it IN, but it can't be welded out. That has definitely won me games.
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Don't tolerate splittin'
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OwenTheEnchanter
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2009, 05:54:21 pm » |
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Against decks where Tinker --> Large Man matters most -- creature-based decks -- Darksteel Colossus is also likely to take three turns to kill the opponent. Fish likely has enough toughness to toss in front of the big man to buy a third turn. The matchups where it might matter most are against decks like Goblins and Zoo, which do not have Islands and also may actually be able to kill the destructible Leviathan.
Aside from a ridiculous goblin draw, even if fish can buy an extra turn buy blocking with all its creatures how will it win with that extra turn after being Plague Winded. Also this usually doesn't happen because the creatures in the fish deck are so small and Confidant and Thoughtseize (obvious fetches and Fow) add up quick.
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IDK why you're looking for so much credibility: You top 8ed a couple tournaments. Nice Job!
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2009, 06:50:34 pm » |
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Aside from a ridiculous goblin draw, even if fish can buy an extra turn buy blocking with all its creatures how will it win with that extra turn after being Plague Winded. Also this usually doesn't happen because the creatures in the fish deck are so small and Confidant and Thoughtseize (obvious fetches and Fow) add up quick.
I would hardly consider losing a single Tarmogoyf to be a "Plague Wind"-like effect. Two 5/6 goyfs + a random guy can take down an Inky. If that guy is Gaddock Teeg or Ethersworn Canonist, only one creature will be dying alongside the Inky. Edit: Fetch+Tinker+artifact for Tinker+any countered creature+any instant to find Tinker = 5/6 So, fairly likely
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« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 08:37:25 pm by AmbivalentDuck »
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the boogie man
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2009, 09:24:00 pm » |
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Thats if you don't control any islands.
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Unrestrict: Gush, Flash, Frantic search, fact or fiction (probably), and burning wish if it doesn't suck now.
this may be the last time you hear the boogie song.
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OwenTheEnchanter
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2009, 10:59:30 pm » |
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Aside from a ridiculous goblin draw, even if fish can buy an extra turn buy blocking with all its creatures how will it win with that extra turn after being Plague Winded. Also this usually doesn't happen because the creatures in the fish deck are so small and Confidant and Thoughtseize (obvious fetches and Fow) add up quick.
I would hardly consider losing a single Tarmogoyf to be a "Plague Wind"-like effect. Two 5/6 goyfs + a random guy can take down an Inky. If that guy is Gaddock Teeg or Ethersworn Canonist, only one creature will be dying alongside the Inky. Edit: Fetch+Tinker+artifact for Tinker+any countered creature+any instant to find Tinker = 5/6 So, fairly likely I was talking about Darksteel so your post doesn't make any sense.
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IDK why you're looking for so much credibility: You top 8ed a couple tournaments. Nice Job!
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2009, 08:09:25 am » |
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It's still not a plague wind if you block DSC with two 5/6 goyfs. All of the damage is blocked, one goyf dies.
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FlyFlySideOfFry
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2009, 08:40:00 am » |
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It's still not a plague wind if you block DSC with two 5/6 goyfs. All of the damage is blocked, one goyf dies.
Would you really block DSC with two goyfs in an aggro deck? You would likely be able to just lose the 11 life and swing back for lethal unless it somehow comes up that you Tinker then they untap and cast 2 goyfs.
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Mickey Mouse is on a Magic card. Your argument is invalid.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2009, 10:36:37 pm » |
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I think most will hate darksteel colossus when they first start playing the deck unless there actually winning with it. Its like the deadest draw when learning to play the deck. I've played grim long, pitch long and then tps since Smemmen started writing these articles and I would say that darksteel is my preffered choice after a ton of thought. Rarely is my colossus chain of vapored because storm decks are the ones that run that card for the most part. It all comes down to mass bounce like hurkyl's recall and rebuild and If you made the smart play to back your tinker with a counterspell or misdirection. If you don't have that but do have a few mana or aftifacts your better choice is to tinker the jar anyway. I think If you want a smoother deck Inkwell is the choice to play because of his benefits,mainly being able to be pitched wich can give you peace of mind and win you games against very good players. I feel this is to defensive minded for myself but different players are better with different strategies. When It comes down to it If you tinker first 9 times out of ten you are going to win the game regardless of your choice so I think it is just personal preference. I've just seen tezzeret decks come out of no where in 1 turn when they looked dead in the face of a darksteel so I figure they have a whole extra turn on top of that to throw the combo together or to find bounce. Personally If I just know I'm playing a Tezz deck I will probably tinker the jar unless I've annihilated there hand. I think against regular drain decks not Tezz decks Leviathan could bring you a huge edge over other tps players. This seems to be a very hard choice to make.
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hitman
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1000% SRSLY
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 10:54:16 pm » |
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I don't get why people are getting on the Inkwell bandwagon. The thing with TPS is, in any given hand, only so many of those cards are generally playable in the context of that hand. Several times, you'll have two to three cards that don't really get you anywhere. It's not until you've built resources and crafted your hand around a certain line of play that you're ready to go off. Until then, you could have a few cards that are trash in the context of your hand. How is Darksteel Colossus any worse in your hand than a Mind's Desire you can't profitably pull off?
The point is, even though Darksteel Colossus is usually a dead draw, his ability to win quicker than any other creature in Vintage is extremely relevant in all matchups. You just need a hand crafted around him, same as any other engine or win condition in the deck. Pitching Inkwell to Force of Will may be useful situationally but I'll bet money that when you cast Tinker, you'll usually wish you had Darksteel. Tight, clean play is rewarding whichever win condition you decide to use. You need to be as careful with Colossus as you are with Tendrils. Set up Time Walk and use Duress and Force of Will intelligently.
TPS players need to realize that there aren't cookie cutter plays with the deck. You can't just play a spell and hope you can ride it to victory unimpeded. You have to set everything up, look several turns in advance and consider more lines of play from your opponent than he necessarily has in his hand. Increasing the number of turns it takes you to win when you could have reduced that time through deck design seems highly unprofitable in the long run.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2009, 11:54:59 pm » |
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I've already changed my mind. Inkwell is the choice for this deck. He turns the spot where colossus makes your draw a mulligan to a nearly guarenteed victory. In the tps players thread somebody said go for the storm 90 percent of the time. Now if you draw colossus where you could be playing inkwell and you have fow there is a huge new way to play tps. Since colossus is in hand you will more than likely mulligan because you know that your not pitching mind's desire because it makes your hand garbage after that. If Inkwell is in hand then you can pitch him and make the critical mass Smemmen spoke of wich a tps player knows to be true. When you mulligan to 6 how many times have you needed to mulligan to 5? or what if this is already the mull to 6 and you needed that spot to be blue? I was wrong I think Inkwell is the edge on drain decks Tezz included. I already ordered mine lol.
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zeus-online
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2009, 02:57:55 am » |
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While i didn't read every bit of it, since i knew most if not all of what i read already, i think this is an excellent article! one of my friends has a TPS deck and was consistently loosing to mana drain decks with it....So i told him alot of what was said in your article (before it was written, that is) and he started to win instead of just folding.
So for anyone who wants to try the deck, but aren't exactly sure how to play it, i think this is one of the best TPS primers.
It's kinda like playing a drain deck, anticipate what your opponent is likely to do...Did he play a workshop? No rush, he probably won't kill you that fast...If it looks like a mana drain deck, don't worry, you still have a good amount of time to set up....Playing combo? You have more disruption and most of the same broken cards. AggroControl can be a bit tricky though (Cannonist or null rod really needs answering).
/Zeus
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The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
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Frenger
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2009, 02:59:09 pm » |
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Great article. I feel it complimented your three part primer very well, with that providing a great understanding of the deck to the reader and this article teaching him how to use that to win. I don't get why people are getting on the Inkwell bandwagon. The thing with TPS is, in any given hand, only so many of those cards are generally playable in the context of that hand. Several times, you'll have two to three cards that don't really get you anywhere. It's not until you've built resources and crafted your hand around a certain line of play that you're ready to go off. Until then, you could have a few cards that are trash in the context of your hand. How is Darksteel Colossus any worse in your hand than a Mind's Desire you can't profitably pull off?
The point is, even though Darksteel Colossus is usually a dead draw, his ability to win quicker than any other creature in Vintage is extremely relevant in all matchups. You just need a hand crafted around him, same as any other engine or win condition in the deck. Pitching Inkwell to Force of Will may be useful situationally but I'll bet money that when you cast Tinker, you'll usually wish you had Darksteel. Tight, clean play is rewarding whichever win condition you decide to use. You need to be as careful with Colossus as you are with Tendrils. Set up Time Walk and use Duress and Force of Will intelligently.
TPS players need to realize that there aren't cookie cutter plays with the deck. You can't just play a spell and hope you can ride it to victory unimpeded. You have to set everything up, look several turns in advance and consider more lines of play from your opponent than he necessarily has in his hand. Increasing the number of turns it takes you to win when you could have reduced that time through deck design seems highly unprofitable in the long run.
The thing is, you won't be winning when your DSC gets bounced into your hand by a Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth. Sure Inkwell can be bounced by Rebuild or Hurkyl's Recall, but by playing Inkwell you cut the number of relevant bounce spells that are usable in half. As has already been mentioned, you won't be winning either when your DSC is welded out. Furthermore, DSC does not always end the game in two turns. A goyf could chump block him to buy a turn, or other decks might even get their own robot into play. If you get one swing in with inkwell, you win the race if your opponent summons his own robot. So saying DSC is faster is only true some of the time, and when is is faster, its just by one turn. I think the pros of Inkwell (less bounce works, can't be welded, unblockable vs blue decks, pitches to FoW) simply outweigh the fact that sometimes he is slower.
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OwenTheEnchanter
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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2009, 03:32:04 pm » |
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Except for the fact that since Inkwell was so popular at these last tournaments and Empty the Warrens sees no play Echoing Truth should be completely replaced by Hurykl's Recall/Rebuild, meaning its shroud is basically irrelevant.
Please do not quote this and explain that Inkwell is still better because <instert card as playable as Stingscourger>, I don't care.
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IDK why you're looking for so much credibility: You top 8ed a couple tournaments. Nice Job!
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Smmenen
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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2009, 03:45:17 pm » |
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DSC and Colossus are close enough that the biggest reason I'm running Leviathan is that it's blue and can pitch to Misdirection and Force of Will.
Thanks for all of the positive feedback. Writing an article like this takes alot of time and preparation, and I used several months of testing to accumulate the notes and examples (with many others I didn't use). The idea for the article came from AJ Grasso, who suggested that I was writing too many articles for beginners, and wanted to see something more like this. I hope articles like this will encourages others to subscribe to premium.
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« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 03:50:08 pm by Smmenen »
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