Fish

[jamestosetti]

I've played against fish alot and I think it is a pretty solid archetype so I've been testing it. I know there are w/u and r/u variants that are very good but anyone can post anything they want about fish in this thread. The first list I'm going to put up is for a tezz,ichorid,tps metagame.

2 island
1 plains
2 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

4 sage of epiter
4 ninja of the deep hours
4 meddling mage
4 jotun grunt

1 black lotus
1 mox sapphire
1 mox pearl
1 sol ring

3 null rod
2 pithing needle

1 ancestral recall
1 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 daze
3 disrupt
4 stifle
1 hurkyl's recall
1 time walk

1 serenity

s/b
1 serenity
4 relic of progenitus
3 tormod's crypt
3 aven mindcensor
2 ethersworn canonist
2 sower of temptation

[mishraw]

I think your list sounds like something already seen and see again:

1) pithing needles maindeck are horrible in fish.
2)you play just only 4 one-mana-drop for ninja, too few.
3)sol ring? uhmmm for what?!
4)only 20 mana fonts?Consider that 4 of these goin' under null rod effect.
5)no sword to plows. ? In my metagame it's a suicide choice,have  you decided to completely suck in aggrocontroll mirror?
6)Serenity maindeck? Horrible for a statistic deck like fish, thre's the risk to have some dead cards in the hand, don't you think so?
7)sower of temptation is really too mana intensive for this deck, we need to run cards like stp, faster and cheaper than sower.

[jamestosetti]

This version hasn't lost a match for me yet. Yes this deck is similar to something you've seen time and time again. I would like some other lists you've seen time and time again posted in here. Also if you read up it says this deck is for a tps,ichorid,tezz metagame. If I think I need to rock swords to plowshares in type 1 I think I'll play another deck.

[mishraw]

This version hasn't lost a match for me yet.

Ouch, you posted a new tier 1, sorry i understimated it.

Your deck has some structural weakness: mana base, draw engine support( for ninja) and removals; if  u are sure to face just only tezz, ichoride and storm deck, ok, i completely agree with you. But in 7 turns tournaments like usually we play in Italy, i assure this deck is a _BYE for a 40% of the  field.

[andrewpate]

Why the miser's Serenity?  Oath still gets one activation, and you have 0 maindeck answers for anything they might get.  In fact, even after boarding, I can't imagine how you could win even a single game against any build of Oath, since your only relevant lock parts are Meddling Mage, which is easy enough to bounce or counter, and a couple of untutorable, equally bounceable/counterable Sowers (which can't even target Progenitus or Inkwell).  The Serenity is only good against Stax, but since you are destroying your own Null Rods and Pithing Needles, it's kind of a wash.  I would cut the Serenity and go to 4 Null Rod, which is the best card in your deck anyway.

I also think that 4 Jotun Grunt and 4 Stifle are both too many.  Both can sometimes be dead or of limited utility.  I think that you could do something like go down to 3 Grunt, 2 Stifle, and add 3 Cursecatcher, which is really good right now.  It's also another 1-drop for Ninja of the Deep Hours.

Did you consider Threads of Disloyalty over Sower in the sideboard?  It steals Goyf one turn earlier.  You could soup up your board with some combination of Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing/Spell Snare/Swords to Plowshares, all of which are good in various matchups, such as Stax and the mirror, probably better than your 7 anti-Ichorid cards when you already have 5 strips and 2 Needles in the maindeck.  Any of those cards would also give you game against Oath and mitigate the uselessness of Threads in that matchup, making more of your sideboard do double-duty, which is always good.

This version hasn't lost a match for me yet.

Please don't say things like this.  It just sounds defensive and exaggerated, and it makes your other claims less meaningful.  Even 4 Burning Wish/4 LED Long decks lost matches occasionally.  We also don't know with whom you're testing or against what decks.  Even if true, this statement doesn't really tell us anything useful about your build.

[jamestosetti]

The only reason I'm trying to get tier decks posted here is so the people who play in mws play can step it up because it's full of by's. When I say it hasn't lost a match yet your talking to someone who owns the cards but only plays in mwsplay. Also the person who made me say that only had negatives and no criticism for anyone to improve.I'm all for you saying my deck sucks and I'm a bad player as long as you tell me why and and how to fix it. I've only played type 1 since right around the restriction of brainstorm and then I've only played storm decks until recently. Then for the bye for 40 percent of the field in Europe or wherever. I've never played in Europe but I've heard it's a bunch of weird decks for the most part that would get hammered in the states?

EDIT:
Yea I made those changes you guys suggested and it's very good. Does anyone know anything about red and blue fish?

Posts merged.  Please don't double post.  Verbal warning for repeated violations. -Eastman

[garathiel]

I would like to ... Lol ... reThink about this list...

Why Sage of epityr?
...Epityr is good to avoid mana screw mulligans , and is necessary in U+R/G lists of fish.
...Here we could fetch for the 2 type basic lands and we have stifle to support both of Mana/Grunt/Denial.
...I really think we could use 4of Cursecatcher instead of "sage" and Disrupt.

To don't change too much your Idea i think its good to have a 1x of "SAGE"(5°drop cc1 for ninja) and a 1xDisrupt(it goes to complete the set of DAZE/CURSECATCHER).

1x Hurkyl's recall is very good against Leviatan...but...is an 1x...
...Merchant?
...Mystical?
...They give us Ancestral/protections and the 1x bounc eof the deck ... a must-in if we choice the 1x Bounce in the deck !!!

---

Regards^^

p.s. Italian UR Fish Players Do It Better ! !!!

[jamestosetti]

Yea I've seen some awesome blue and red fish lists that completely shut the opp out. Someone pmd me a partial list so I should have a list up in about a week. I was wondering your stance on standstill in red and blue fish.

[swawagon]

For Standstill to work it needs to apply pressure usually in the form of man-lands. If Fish is whittling life totals with attackers it can use that 2 mana needed to drop Standstill for disruption in the form of Mana Leak or Negate instead of dropping a situational draw spell.

Ninja of the Deep Hours or Dark Confidant are pretty solid draw engines for fish decks. I honestly would probably rather play Ancestral Visions a turn earlier that in time will net +2, than drop Standstill for 1U that might net +2.

Also if fish ever gets behind or is facing down a Tinkered in robot, Standstill is completely dead. Standstill feels like a win more. When you are winning it might draw a few spells,  but anything in that slot would do similiar things. Impulse as an instant would let you see more cards, right now, than a triggered Standstill.

Standstill is a horrible top deck too, unless you are already in a good position.

[andrewpate]

Fish also has a problem taking advantage of Standstill because it runs such a small number of permission spells.  Combo can set up a kill, then Duress you.  The Standstill will resolve before the Duress, and then you lose your Force of Will, likely the only card they care about, even if Standstill drew you into it.  Better to run cards like Dark Confidant that allow you to lay consistent pressure over time than to put your resources into a single large burst of card advantage which only comes at the time of your opponent's choosing.

[PhillyCheeseSteak]

After reading this post I realize I haven't really looked at Standstill like this before.  I have almost always considered it an auto-include in fish style decks because in my mind it "evens" the card drawing between other decks and fish.  I never really thought about it as a liability especially when it comes to topdecking or an unfavorable board position.  Very interesting.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

On Standstill I've always played my denial spells before working on trying to draw spells unless it is Dark Confidant because the earlier it is played the more it does. I've never been able to justify Ninja because in all honesty the guy costs you 2 turns of likely tapping out without putting down any pressure. Best case typical scenario:

You: Turn 1: Cursecatcher
Opp: Turn 1: mana, go
You: Turn 2: Swing ninja, opponent casts the instant that curse was holding back
Opp: Turn 2: Can do whatever he wants because all you've done in 2 turns is tap down and cantrip a sudden shock.

On the other hand if you wait longer to drop Ninja he'll do less and less as the turns go on. On the other hand if that ninja was a Standstill you could easily justify dropping another creature that puts pressure on turn 2 keeping your opponent locked out since your draw engine doesn't require Time Walks to be decent. I agree that you can't just slap Standstill into any fish deck, it takes a deck built around it where you run a lot of instants or the creatures you'll drop turns 1-3 can do a lot. This means either beat hard like goyf, have instant effects like Gorilla Shaman/Cursecatcher, or abuse Time Walks like Dark Confidant/Ninja. It isn't as simple as your opponent just drawing a pile of cards because you'll be drawing at least as many per turn while also winning.

Your deck must be built horribly wrong if your opponent can cast 1 Duress and then win through 3-4 lock pieces you've dropped before Standstill+the counterspells you should have drawn. Fish isn't the kind of deck that can ever afford to get into an unfavorable position. This isn't Ichorid where you can just dredge another 30 cards in 2 turns or TPS where you can rip a Yawgmoth's Will. Once you start to lose you will continue to lose and there is pretty much no Fish card that can ever change this fact against non-creature decks. If your opponent resolves tinker->DSC with counter backup everything you draw is dead why single out Standstill?

This is why Standstill is so important, because it IS win more. It isn't a card that is only useful if your opponent has no way to win, but it keeps you from swinging to an unfavorable position. Obviously you should have no problem if your opponent cracks it fast running 5xAncestral Recall is always good. However, if your opponent keeps it around for a while you'll be building up mana to drop multiple counterspells or maybe even eat a Time Vault with Gorilla Shaman. Worst case scenario you draw a bunch of mana and swing with man-lands increasing your clock.

Putting it this way a Fish player will always lose every goldfish. (pun) Thus every card you run has to push their turn 3 goldfish back, hopefully while beating. Standstill does exactly what the name suggests, it freezes your opponent's goldfish. Obviously it helps to have cards you can play under Standstill, but I would hardly say it is necessary to justify running the card. Your opponent will almost never be able to do anything but draw->go while you draw->beat->go. Sure your opponent can justify holding off Standstill to drop lands, but you should be drawing Negates/FoWs/Leaks/Spell Snares/Misdirections to punish them waiting too long. Putting it quite simply if you run about as many counterspells as your opponent you have nothing to worry about stalling with Standstill. Then when your opponent cracks Standstill you'll have drawn even more. You shouldn't be arbitrarily tapping out to shock your opponent you should still leave up mana to cast your permission for when Standstill is cracked.

[swawagon]

Standstill isn't an answer, it doesn't find an answer, and it doesn't disrupt an opponent. It doesn't even draw a card right away the way a Ninja can. Nor is Standstill a win condition, nor even do one-time damage. Standstill just offers a bit of a draw engine, situationally, that extends the early tempo jumps Fish decks ought to have an advantage of in the early parts of a match. However dropping a Cursecather or Gorilla Shaman really is hardly a huge tempo advantage. Especially when multiple Moxen, Time Vaults and Voltaic Keys are equally low casting costs to many cards in current Fish decks. Getting a tempo advantage with Fish decks is arguably harder than ever in current Vintage. Getting a more fluid draw engine online/small beater (Dark Confidant, Ninja) is what Fish can do fairly well. Or fish can get bigger beaters (Tarmogoyf) online fast.

I don't know perhaps it's preference. Fish to me, wants to constantly apply pressure and win early. Standstill doesn't apply pressure, can slow your growth down. Standstill extends games and allows opponents more turns and more draws, even if potentially Fish players may get more card advantage in the long run. Game position pending Standtill offers opponents a choice, crack it now or later and will use that choice to best suite their needs.

Comparing Standstill to Ninja of the Deep Hours is probably fair. That is in decks light on Duress/Thoughthseizes and focusses more on one drop creatures (Curscatcher, Gorilla Shaman, Savannah Lions, Stormscape Apprentice...)
So in UW or UR fish decks, Ninja arguably just does more. It is a win condition, can draw a card now, can over time draw many more than Standstill could, cannot be countered. Ninja even has great synergy with Spellstutter Sprites, Cloud of Faeries, or any Fish card with a comes into play ability (Sower of Temptation, Vendillion Clique) or it resets Jotun Grunt. That's not to say Standstill and Ninja cannot be in the same deck, in fact they have synergy in that fact that Ninja can come into play, with help from another creature obviously, without triggering Standstill.

I often don't rush to play Ninja, or Standstill for that matter, unless I have nothing else to do (no Mana Leak, Negate, etc... left in hand to counter with).

Standstill in a deck with more of a focus on discard (Duress, Thoughtseize) and free counters (Daze, Misdirection, Disruption Shoal, Commandeer) and or man-lands (Mishra's Factory, Faerie Conclave, Mutuvault) is where Standstills stock rises.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Well I am a player who has always hated small vanilla beaters like Savannah Lions in Fish. I want all my creatures to do something unless they are obnoxiously large like Grunt/goyf/Tinker. Basically you'll never race anything with Savannah Lions so you may as well pay 1 more mana and have it give you a Time Walk with it forcing them to deal with it or play around it. Thus I would prefer Standstill because my creatures already do something. If you're just waiting until your hand is almost empty to cast Ninja then what is the point of not running something else? You should already have about 5-6 power on the table if you're waiting for an empty hand so if you can hold your position Ninja draws about as much as Standstill except Standstill does it instantly for less mana. At the very least you may as well just run Dimir Cutpurse since it does more if you are really able to capitalize on Ninja so much.

Standstill finds an answer and it certainly disrupts an opponent unless they give you 5 copies of a restricted bomb. It is either massive tempo with a draw engine or just a draw engine.

Comparing Standstill to Ninja of the Deep Hours is probably fair. That is in decks light on Duress/Thoughthseizes and focusses more on one drop creatures (Curscatcher, Gorilla Shaman, Savannah Lions, Stormscape Apprentice...)

This right here really just makes it seem like Ninja is better in a worse deck. If fast vanilla beaters were so good goblins would be the deck to beat in Vintage right now since they can run much more disruptive cards than Ninja and Piledriver slaps Savannah Lions when it comes to damage output. Basically I stand by what I said earlier that Fish will never goldfish any other deck so you should be running cards that stop your opponent. Rather than run 1-drop fail beaters to support Ninja I would rather run cards that absolutely wreck my opponents but cost more mana. Thus my disruptive elements will be stronger and my vanilla beaters will do more damage. There is little if any change in the overall goldfish except my disruption is stronger.

Then again we could both be wrong because people seem to love Standstill+Savannah Lions and place well with it. Here are a ton of decks that run both and have top-8 finishes in strong tournaments in late 08.

http://decklist.zmx.cc/decklist/Vintage/Benjamin%20Paton/3277.html

[nineisnoone]

Yea I've seen some awesome blue and red fish lists that completely shut the opp out. Someone pmd me a partial list so I should have a list up in about a week. I was wondering your stance on standstill in red and blue fish.

Standstill would be horrible in this deck.  You need instants and man-lands.

As far as it going into "fish" decks, it dilutes the consistency (because sometimes it's just a bad draw) but offers a bit more explosiveness (because sometimes it's a good draw).  I don't really run fish for that sort of explosiveness, so I usually don't run standstill in fish decks. 

I'm a steady stream of disruption or combo deck type of player.  I don't like decks with lots of little mini-combos that are minimal strength otherwise.  Other people might like it.  But I wouldn't play it.

And as far as Cats and Dogs go, they are wonderful when you get one to come down turn 1 and never see another in the game. The problem is when you draw them too late or draw too many too early. 

Again, it plays into the sort of explosiveness that a Fish-Still deck can provide. Turn 1 Cat with FoW (not to protect it, but to not lose if they try to combo), into turn 1 Standstill is a tough draw against ANY deck. It will typically be stronger than a more even deck that packs more purely disruption.  Simply because counters are better than anything and if you are out drawing them you will have more counters than them.  However, it becomes much more draw dependent.

[swawagon]

Hypothetically this is just about all fish does:

Turn one: Play a one drop of some kind; play Curscatcher, Gorilla Shaman, Savannah Lions, Stormscape Apprentice, etc... Or cast Duress/Thoughtseize.

Then turn two: Attack. Leave 2 mana up for Mana Leak, Negate, or Spellstutter Sprite. If you don't have a counter, or already have a Force of Will online; Ninjitsu in Ninja of the Deep Hours, cast Dark Confidant/Standstill. Or drop Null Rod. Or cast Tarmogoyf.

Turn three: Waste a land, and/or do more of what you did on turn 2.

Win in 7-10 turns.

[Mantis]

Why is there a debate between running either Standstill or Ninja while they have so much synergy.. Just play them both.

[andrewpate]

Hypothetically this is just about all fish does:

Turn one: Play a one drop of some kind; play Curscatcher, Gorilla Shaman, Savannah Lions, Stormscape Apprentice, etc... Or cast Duress/Thoughtseize.

Then turn two: Attack. Leave 2 mana up for Mana Leak, Negate, or Spellstutter Sprite. If you don't have a counter, or already have a Force of Will online; Ninjitsu in Ninja of the Deep Hours, cast Dark Confidant/Standstill. Or drop Null Rod. Or cast Tarmogoyf.

Turn three: Waste a land, and/or do more of what you did on turn 2.

Win in 7-10 turns.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to tell us.  I don't necessarily disagree with most of it (although I would gladly use Wasteland and then Stifle a fetch on turn 2 as much as play any of the 2-drops you mentioned), but what is the utility of the observation?

Also, this only helps prove the weakness of Standstill compared to engines like Dark Confidant.  All of the 1-drops you list have 1 power except for Savannah Lions (which, as mentioned above, suffers from the fact that it doesn't DO anything).  Turn 1, 20-turn clock, turn 2 something that won't let you play Null Rod?  And remind me just one more time, why do I want to let my opponent decide when to let me draw cards?  Maybe in Landstill, with like 14 permission slots.

I suppose that in certain colors, there might be no good alternative to Standstill.  This seems like a really good argument in favor of colors that can support Cold-Eyed Selkie or Dark Confidant.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Hypothetically this is just about all fish does:

Turn one: Play a one drop of some kind; play Curscatcher, Gorilla Shaman, Savannah Lions, Stormscape Apprentice, etc... Or cast Duress/Thoughtseize.

Then turn two: Attack. Leave 2 mana up for Mana Leak, Negate, or Spellstutter Sprite. If you don't have a counter, or already have a Force of Will online; Ninjitsu in Ninja of the Deep Hours, cast Dark Confidant/Standstill. Or drop Null Rod. Or cast Tarmogoyf.

Turn three: Waste a land, and/or do more of what you did on turn 2.

Win in 7-10 turns.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to tell us.  I don't necessarily disagree with most of it (although I would gladly use Wasteland and then Stifle a fetch on turn 2 as much as play any of the 2-drops you mentioned), but what is the utility of the observation?

Also, this only helps prove the weakness of Standstill compared to engines like Dark Confidant.  All of the 1-drops you list have 1 power except for Savannah Lions (which, as mentioned above, suffers from the fact that it doesn't DO anything).  Turn 1, 20-turn clock, turn 2 something that won't let you play Null Rod?  And remind me just one more time, why do I want to let my opponent decide when to let me draw cards?  Maybe in Landstill, with like 14 permission slots.

I suppose that in certain colors, there might be no good alternative to Standstill.  This seems like a really good argument in favor of colors that can support Cold-Eyed Selkie or Dark Confidant.

You're clearly playing Standstill wrong if you're dropping it before you cast the actual threats in your hand. The whole advantage to Standstill is that it doesn't force you to drop it on turn 2 like Ninja or Confidant to get the maximum benefit. I would rather go 1 drop, 2 drop, 2 drop+1 drop, standstill with 2 mana open for a counterspell than 1 drop(which has to be a creature not Duress/Thoughtseize), Ninja, cross my fingers. Once again if the first 2-3 turns as fish are spent doing anything but playing things to stop your opponent from winning you're probably going to get goldfished and lose. I don't see why you would ever cast Standstill on turn 2 unless your hand is full of man-lands or something.

[andrewpate]

Of course that's the better way to get more mileage out of Standstill.  But Dark Confidant can come down early and start generating card advantage right away.  If you use a Wasteland and pitch a card to Force of Will, both of which frequently happen in the first 2 turns, you can run out of cards very fast, and refueling immediately (even early U/R builds had Curiosity!) is often clutch.  A combo or Remora player will be glad to let you sit there under a Standstill while both players topdeck, since their topdecks are so much better.  As has been repeatedly mentioned in this thread, Fish doesn't get to play with broken cards!  For Standstill to be good, you have to rush them into breaking it, which means already having a relevant clock in play (which probably means Tarmogoyf).

Sure, in your hypothetical of curving out perfectly, that Standstill is a good punctuation mark.  But what about when you don't pull one of those sweet double-Goyf or Ancestral-with-backup hands off the top, and end up with a mulligan into fetchland, Wasteland, Mox, Cursecatcher, Null Rod, and X?  These happen just as often.  Would you rather have Standstill in that last slot, or a hybrid threat/draw engine like Augury Adept, Selkie, or Bob?  The answer should be obvious.  And what's more, these cards would also be relevant in your scenario of curving out and playing a card to refuel on like turn 5.  They are good on turn 2, they are good backup to a board with threats already committed, and they are good off the top.  The only time they are bad is in extremely disadvantageous board positions, like when the opponent already has a robot or a Tezzeret out.  This isn't really a problem, since every card in the deck, including Standstill, is dead at that point.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Of course that's the better way to get more mileage out of Standstill.  But Dark Confidant can come down early and start generating card advantage right away.  If you use a Wasteland and pitch a card to Force of Will, both of which frequently happen in the first 2 turns, you can run out of cards very fast, and refueling immediately (even early U/R builds had Curiosity!) is often clutch.  A combo or Remora player will be glad to let you sit there under a Standstill while both players topdeck, since their topdecks are so much better.  As has been repeatedly mentioned in this thread, Fish doesn't get to play with broken cards!  For Standstill to be good, you have to rush them into breaking it, which means already having a relevant clock in play (which probably means Tarmogoyf).

Sure, in your hypothetical of curving out perfectly, that Standstill is a good punctuation mark.  But what about when you don't pull one of those sweet double-Goyf or Ancestral-with-backup hands off the top, and end up with a mulligan into fetchland, Wasteland, Mox, Cursecatcher, Null Rod, and X?  These happen just as often.  Would you rather have Standstill in that last slot, or a hybrid threat/draw engine like Augury Adept, Selkie, or Bob?  The answer should be obvious.  And what's more, these cards would also be relevant in your scenario of curving out and playing a card to refuel on like turn 5.  They are good on turn 2, they are good backup to a board with threats already committed, and they are good off the top.  The only time they are bad is in extremely disadvantageous board positions, like when the opponent already has a robot or a Tezzeret out.  This isn't really a problem, since every card in the deck, including Standstill, is dead at that point.

Even in the hand you listed niether card is directly better. If you topdeck absolutely nothing then yes, a long-term engine would be better. However, if you actually rip some gas (which with 3 mana sources in 6 cards is statistically likely) I would prefer Standstill to selkie or adept. Bob is obviously nuts broken so ya I would obviously take turn 1 land->mox->bob but once again if it were Selkie or Adept you would be backed into a terrible situation. You would have to cast Curse turn 1, draw engine turn 2, Null Rod turn 3 rather than Curse turn 1, Null Rod turn 2, some topdecked creature on turn 3, Standstill turn 4 unless you draw a colored mana source. Playing draw-go with a full hand against an opponent with an empty hand and giving them time to fill up isn't a good thing so they would likely force the Standstill instantly and try to resolve a threat of some kind. If you topdeck lands so you can cast Null Rod before Selkie then yes I would likely prefer it. However, if you topdeck business then Standstill is significantly better. Basically Augury Adept and Cold-Eyed Selkie bring your deck from bad positions to tight positions where as Standstill brings your deck from tight positions to winning positions. I prefer the latter because most of the time tight position is a nice way of saying "you lose when they rip a bomb or tutor".

[honestabe]

I always like to see Trygon Predator at least sideboarded for Stax, Tezz, or Oath

[jamestosetti]

 I think this is a good introductory vintage deck especially for anyone coming from type 2.

2 swamp
3 island
4 underground sea
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
3 wasteland
1 strip mine

3 sage of epityr
4 ninja of the deep hours
2 earwig squad
3 cursecatcher
4 oona's prowler

4 bitterblossom
4 force of will
2 hurkyl's recall
4 duress
1 demonic tutor
3 standstill
3 null rod
1 ancestral recall
2 negate
1 thoughtseize
s/b
2 arcane laboratories
2 pithing needle
4 relic of progenitus
3 phyrexian negator
4 thorn of amethyst