Is this prize support fair?

[Webster]

SCG and Ebay + postal costs pretty much put a hard ceiling on what stores can make on singles. Hosting events should be a non trivial part of most stores revenue streams.

Having singles on hand is huge for a store.
It doesn't matter what singles go for on Ebay if you need them RIGHT NOW.
As long as the markup isn't extreme, a store owner shouldn't be faulted for having prices that don't fall in line with Ebay.

As for comparing prices to SCG, I wouldn't use that price as a lower barrier.
SCG's prices are on the higher end.
Check out findmagiccards.com to get an idea of where stores rank in terms of pricing.

[Smmenen]

SCG and Ebay + postal costs pretty much put a hard ceiling on what stores can make on singles. Hosting events should be a non trivial part of most stores revenue streams.

Having singles on hand is huge for a store.
It doesn't matter what singles go for on Ebay if you need them RIGHT NOW.
As long as the markup isn't extreme, a store owner shouldn't be faulted for having prices that don't fall in line with Ebay.

Acknowledged.  So, it's not a 'hard' ceiling, but maybe a 'soft' ceiling. 

[Webster]

SCG and Ebay + postal costs pretty much put a hard ceiling on what stores can make on singles. Hosting events should be a non trivial part of most stores revenue streams.

Having singles on hand is huge for a store.
It doesn't matter what singles go for on Ebay if you need them RIGHT NOW.
As long as the mark-up isn't extreme, a store owner shouldn't be faulted for having prices that don't fall in line with Ebay.

Acknowledged.  So, it's not a 'hard' ceiling, but maybe a 'soft' ceiling. 

Right.
There's definately an accepted mark-up for on-site singles.
That's why dealers at premeir events can sell any common for at least $1, any uncommon for at least $2, and so on.
Granted, at premier events, it's more extreme because there's more at stake and no tolerance for proxies.

[mdenny]

I have recently started running Vintage tournaments at the local store. The question you have to ask yourself is whether you are running these events for profit or for the community. If you are running an event for profit then that’s fine but it’s not in the spirit of supporting the community and a prize payout with that big a rake is bound to discourage players from continuing to enter your events.
   To me it seems that someone who truly loves vintage should be leveraging their position as a dealer to offer outstanding prize support to encourage participation and grow their local vintage scene and that making a profit should be secondary. It is also my personal experience that this will pay long term dividends by encouraging more players to purchase cards at your store in order to play in quality tournaments.
   As an example, for my last tournament of 22 players ($10 entrance) the prize support was about 300 dollars in value. People asked me how I could afford to do this but its simple, I got the cards for about $200 so I was actually breaking even (after buying our judge and the store owner lunch). This kind of support required a lot of footwork and planning on my part but I think it’s the only way to properly support the community. If you are holding tournaments you should draw enjoyment from seeing a bunch of players having a good time, not just making a good payout. Because I’m a good bargain shopper I can afford to do this and keep holding tournaments. I think that the same should apply for store owners because ultimately they are still making money because they can get such a good deal on buying cards.
   Anyhow that’s just my opinion and I’m lucky enough to have another job so I’m not super dependent on the rake at every tournament but I think this kind of attitude is what vintage needs.

[Samite Healer]

The question at hand is WHAT WOULD BE A FAIR RAKE, or the amount of money the house keeps based off entrance fees. Seeing as there is already a 20-30% disparity in the card pricing, a 10% cap rake should be more than acceptable. I'm saying that above that point it becomes unfair in my mind and looks like gouging - but obviously if people keep coming back, then "it must work/be perfectly acceptable."

@ Steve: Did you even read the first post? Are you telling me it should be considered "fair" to take in $700 in entrance fees and give back roughly <$400 in prizes?

First of all, why do you believe that you are ENTITLED to receive 90-95-100% of the collected entrance fees as prizes? 

I've always been amused by the fact that Magic players, taken as a whole, are quite stingy and "expect" all these behaviors and services  from the shop owners, tournament organizers, dealers, and WotC without ever paying due diligence to the business side of the equation.  These are people who provide us with valuable services, which without, our game of choice or hobby would likely cease to exist.

The position you have presented is completely absurd.  Suggesting that a TO needs to give out nearly all of their collective entrance fees because their "take" is "built into the price of their singles and they sell snacks/accessories" is like saying that a supermarket needs to give out free bubble gum because their profit is built into the pricing model of their lettuce, and other fine produce products.  Absolutely ridiculous.  Is it not reasonable for someone to make a profit on selling cards AND running an event?  Is it fair for you to determine the value of their time and put a 10% profit margin cap on it?  How can you possibly assume to know what an organizer pays for a prize?  It's not very often I get to pick up Time Walks at $200.

Steve pretty much hit the nail on the head by mentioning that the equation is somewhat self-regulating.  If an organizer collects $500 and gives out packs of Homelands for prizes, people likely won't come back.  The natural balance will be reached when the event coordinator realizes that nobody came to his event and he would have to either cease running events, or revamp his/her prize structure.

As long as you continue to equate Magic tournaments with gambling, and TOs with casinos, you're actually undermining the very system you are trying to protect.  You're crusading to protect the average Vintage consumer from the tyranny of "unfair tournament organizers," but we actually need them to make money in order for our hobby to thrive.

A major problem with Type 1 in recent times seems to be the fact that people are more concerned with how much money someone is making off an event and what the prize is, rather than playing for the sake of enjoying the game.  If deciding whether or not to attend an event depends on if the TO is giving out 85% instead of 75% of the collected amount, then the person deciding doesn't belong at the event period.

[EnialisLiadon]

Maybe in areas with a developed and populated vintage scene, you can pull off the whole "don't come back until they've changed" routine.  But for a lot of places, there is either minimal or no vintage support at all.  So unless you're willing to step up to the plate, maybe that crappy TO is the only person within 150 miles running a vintage tournament.

I live in central Illinois, and I generally have to drive to Chicago (roughly 3 hours) for a 20-person tournament.  It's the closest thing available.  If I had something as close as an hour away, I would go no matter how terrible it was--just because I have nothing else.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say.  I voted unfair, and I get irriated at stories like that recent Pastimes event in Chicago.  But at the same time, I would really love to have absolutely ANY vintage support within 100 miles of me, crappy or not.

[MISTERTREK]

Well since this poll was started about me, I guess I'll chime in. To start my post let me define my situation. I do not own a store. My events were originally run at the local community college, but a political change at the campus ended our tour there. I now run my events at a store who's owner is kind enough to let me use the space for the day. His thoughts are that he gets people into the store that would not normally be there during a slow tiime and might make purchases. Since I do not have a store, most of my prizes come from Ebay. Ocassionally I do pick-up a prize worthy card elsewhere, but this is rare. My expences for an event usually include a fee payed to my judge, my website (since the only reason I have one is to communicate info on my events), a Constant Contact account to e-mail, flyer copies taken to local major events for promotion, my initial cost outlay for prizes, and of course my time from 8am-8pm on the day of the event. On a note about the last item, I work for Comcast, and could if I wanted work an overtime day on a Saturday. That would be an 8+ hour workday at ruffly $35 an hour. So, if I just wanted to make money, I could be a good little comtech and come and clean up all the Radio Shack junk that people try to run their internet and HD connections on. LOL.

Instead I choose to try and maintain contact with the Magic community by networking with the many people I have met over the years, offering a service, and staying in touch with the game. Personally I am an aweful player, and my 1498 DCI rating attests to that! My usual events have a $25 entry fee and will have 1-2 P9 prizes and other bling for 3rd-4th. I started offering 5th-8th prizes at 40+ players last year, and started with draft sets, but based on player feedback, changed that starting with my January event, changed that to a FOW. That was given out at 2 of my 3 2009 events, with 1 event not meeting the player total. To change things up at this event, I offered a Delta instead (ruffly same value). I decided to change this event to a $20 entry fee for 2 reasons. We are running a side event with all proceeds going to Dan Herd's memorial fund and wanted people to donate extra funds there. Second, my June event is for a Lotus with a higher entry fee.

In responce to AJ's statement that I have never bumped my prizes based on attendance, that is totally false. At my last Lotus event, 2nd place went from a Timetwister to a Time Walk and 8th - 16th were given store credit. Additional store credit has also been given out at other events. To his defense, I did not grandly announce these bumps, but simpley awarded those players as they finished. Perhaps poor communication skills on my part. Granted, bumps from me usually have to come in the for of store credit since I do not always have "prize worthy" singles available as a back up, since as I stated I dont have acces to purchase this stuff often.

As my original post on the tourney announcement stated, I payed $320 for the 1st - 4th prizes. I was projecting about 30 players as is typical for a smaller event. That would make my take $280. But if you factor in the other expences mentioned above, it would work out to about $200.  Will I make some money selling cards? Maybe, but I usually buy at least as much as I sell. Will I make money on my T2 event? A little, usual T2 is about $50, but especially after a new set is release, T2 turnout is low since new decks are not mainstream yet.  So, that would make my day at about $300 for the day. The side event was all being donated to charity and I put up a $100 prize for that. So, all in all, if it came down to just money and time, I could have worked my regular job and done better.

If anyone who reads this doen't think that traditional business practices in the US are not a 100% mark-up have not worked in the real world. To state things in Magic terms, WOTC sells booster boxes to stores at $72, that's $2 per pack. MSRP is $4. For those of you that are fotunate enough to still have a job, I'm sure things work very similar for cost vs. sales at your place of employment. Service industry c vs. s can very alot, but are usually even more swayed.

So, I guess my next question is was the problem my entry fee or the prize support? Would I like to be able to offer power at a $20 entry fee? Sure, but since I cant buy it at a dealers buy price, it makes that hard. So what is the answer? I'm asking for a LOGICAL soloution from the community based on ALL this info. I'm sure the TO bashers will weigh in, and hey this is America you're allowed to, but this is America, and unless you're living with mom & dad still, products and services cost money.

AJ, I'm sorry if I've pissed you off and felt one of my statements was childish (as I said they were just examples), but until you're the bashee and not the basher, it's hard to understand the other side. The one statement you made that really troubled me was when i said you could have called or emailed me to talk about the event and offered suggestions and you said you shouldn't have to. You're right, you shouldn't HAVE to, but could have WANTED to. That's a big problem in this world, people often do or don't do what they HAVE to, but rarely think about coulld have WANTED to do.

Thanks for the time on the soapbox, stepping down for now.

[Godder]

A TO who doesn't have to access to wholesale prices (whether boosters, singles or whatever) is entitled to offer a lower payout, in my opinion, since he's not going to make it from the mark-up. Being up front about it, and announcing added prizes where applicable, would obviously make it more understandable for the players.

Most of the fun of threads like these is that the TOs want to make lots of money and the players want to play for as much money (prizes) as possible. Somewhere in between is the equilibrium BUT the players generally have the upper hand since they can simply not play, and it's more in the TO's interests to accede to the players than vice versa. Another point to consider is that what a TO may lose on margin by having a higher pay-out, he may well make up in volume with additional entries.

[wiley]

think about if Home Depot charged me just to show up and walk around their store and not buy anything because I was enjoying their AC and taking up their employees' time asking them questions.

Sam's Club and BJ's both do exactly that though.  It is a business model that has worked well for them and not everyone thinks it is a bad deal.  I personally don't shop at either of those stores because of that particular practice.

What stops hobby store owners from having a variety of business models from Wal-Mart to Sam's Club?  My guess would be that it is solely based on the number of people willing to participate in those models.

[lollerskates1337]

FIXED

Well since this poll was started about me, I guess I'll chime in. To start my post let me define my situation. I do not own a store. My events were originally run at the local community college, but a political change at the campus ended our tour there. I now run my events at a store who's owner is kind enough to let me use the space for the day. His thoughts are that he gets people into the store that would not normally be there during a slow time and might make purchases. Since I do not have a store, most of my prizes come from Ebay. Occasionally I do pick-up a prize worthy card elsewhere, but this is rare. My expenses for an event usually include a fee payed to my judge, my website (since the only reason I have one is to communicate info on my events), a Constant Contact account to e-mail, flyer copies taken to local major events for promotion, my initial cost outlay for prizes, and of course my time from 8am-8pm on the day of the event. On a note about the last item, I work for Comcast, and could if I wanted work an overtime day on a Saturday. That would be an 8+ hour workday at roughly $35 an hour. So, if I just wanted to make money, I could be a good little comtech and come and clean up all the Radio Shack junk that people try to run their internet and HD connections on. LOL.

Instead I choose to try and maintain contact with the Magic community by networking with the many people I have met over the years, offering a service, and staying in touch with the game. Personally I am an awful player, and my 1498 DCI rating attests to that! My usual events have a $25 entry fee and will have 1-2 Beat to shit P9 prizes and other beat crap for 3rd-4th. I started offering 5th-8th prizes at 40+ players last year, and started with draft sets, but based on player feedback, changed that starting with my January event, changed that to a (WOW) FOW. That was given out at 2 of my 3 2009 events, with 1 event not meeting the player total. To change things up at this event, I offered a Delta instead (roughly same value). I decided to change this event to a $20 entry fee for 2 reasons. We are running a side event with all proceeds going to Dan Herd's memorial fund and wanted people to donate extra funds there. Second, my June event is for a Lotus with a higher entry fee.

In response to AJ's statement that I have never bumped my prizes based on attendance, that is totally true, except for one instance. At my last Lotus event, 2nd place went from a Timetwister to a Time Walk and 8th - 16th were given store credit. Additional store credit has also been given out at other events. To his defense, I did not grandly announce these bumps, but simply awarded those players as they finished. Perhaps poor communication skills on my part. Granted, bumps from me usually have to come in the for of store credit since I do not always have "prize worthy" singles available as a back up, since as I stated I don't have access to purchase this stuff often.

As my original post on the tourney announcement stated, I payed $320 for the 1st - 4th prizes. I was projecting about 30 players as is typical for a smaller event. That would make my take $280. But if you factor in the other expenses mentioned above, it would work out to about $200.  Will I make some money selling cards? Maybe, but I usually buy at least as much as I sell. Will I make money on my T2 event? A little, usual T2 is about $50, but especially after a new set is release, T2 turnout is low since new decks are not mainstream yet.  So, that would make my day at about $300 for the day. The side event was all being donated to charity and I put up a $100 prize for that. So, all in all, if it came down to just money and time, I could have worked my regular job and done better.

If anyone who reads this don't think that traditional business practices in the US are not a 100% mark-up have not worked in the real world. To state things in Magic terms, WOTC sells booster boxes to stores at $72, that's $2 per pack. MSRP is $4. For those of you that are fortunate enough to still have a job, I'm sure things work very similar for cost vs. sales at your place of employment. Service industry c vs. s can very a lot, but are usually even more swayed.

So, I guess my next question is was the problem my entry fee or the prize support? Would I like to be able to offer power at a $20 entry fee? Sure, but since I cant buy it at a dealers buy price, it makes that hard. So what is the answer? I'm asking for a LOGICAL solution from the community based on ALL this info. I'm sure the TO bashers will weigh in, and hey this is America you're allowed to, but this is America, and unless you're living with mom & dad still, products and services cost money.

AJ, I'm sorry if I've pissed you off and felt one of my statements was childish (as I said they were just examples), but until you're the bashee and not the basher, it's hard to understand the other side. The one statement you made that really troubled me was when i said you could have called or emailed me to talk about the event and offered suggestions and you said you shouldn't have to. You're right, you shouldn't HAVE to, but could have WANTED to. That's a big problem in this world, people often do or don't do what they HAVE to, but I rarely think about could have WANTED to do.

Thanks for the time on the soapbox, stepping down for now.

Learn to spell check.

'ruffly'! Seriously? lol

Since everything about this username positively screams that it's a dummy account used to flame in this thread, I'm going to go ahead and temporarily ban here.  If I'm wrong and this is a legitimate (but unsuccessful) attempt to meaningfully contribute to the discussion on TMD, I'd like to speak to the user directly.  Account suspended until then.  -DA

[Grand Inquisitor]

The idea that this is a 'hobby' and therefore exempt from the principles of business economics is ridiculous.

Yes and no.  The idea of T1 as a hobby certainly doesn't make it distinct.  However, comparisons to Home Depot, et al are equally lacking in my opinion.  There is a significant social component to playing magic that involves a number of different 'actors': store/venue owners, TO's, judges, singles sellers, different types of T1 players, etc.  Some of them are easily evaluated within the business economics framework, others, not so much.

As long as you continue to equate Magic tournaments with gambling, and TOs with casinos, you're actually undermining the very system you are trying to protect

Easy, Jeff.  I don't think Caleb is comparing Magic with gambling (at least no more than it reasonably can be) so much as using the rake as a commonly understood term for purpose of discussion.

First of all, why do you believe that you are ENTITLED to receive 90-95-100% of the collected entrance fees as prizes? 
I've always been amused by the fact that Magic players, taken as a whole, are quite stingy...

A major problem with Type 1 in recent times seems to be the fact that people are more concerned with how much money someone is making off an event and what the prize is, rather than playing for the sake of enjoying the game.  If deciding whether or not to attend an event depends on if the TO is giving out 85% instead of 75% of the collected amount, then the person deciding doesn't belong at the event period.

What a complex bundle of statements here, great stuff, Jeff.

Aren't consumers allowed infinite entitlement?  Isn't figuring out the business plan "your" job?  Self balancing and voting with your feet/dollars?  Goddamn, right.  But wait, what about when no one new steps up to fill the hole with a better plan?

for a lot of places, there is either minimal or no vintage support at all.  So unless you're willing to step up to the plate, maybe that crappy TO is the only person within 150 miles running a vintage tournament.

It seems this is clearly the norm for T1 scenes.  New England may have the most robust scene in the world, but it's still tiny.  I know and like Dan (Myriad Games), Eric (ELD) and Ray (Iamfishman) and while my decision to attend events could be loosely characterized as rational, it's no where close to what market transactions are described as.

If the TO's are going to succeed, they need to approach the player base in a more nuanced way.  Transparency seems to be a huge help (btw, great post, MISTERTREK).

That being said, Jeff is spot on.  T1 players are unbelievably stingy.  During the glory days (roughly '02-'05) singles were cheap, so was transportation and a growing community had an emergent effect of creating a good 'vibe'.  Since then, many of these parameters have made the margin for both TO's and players tighter.  T1 players may be faced with a choice between placing a higher value (and paying higher fees) on what To's are offering or realizing that their market simply won't bear a Vintage scene.

[Yare]

I've read some of the comments to a greater or lesser extent, but I think you guys are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. This is just economics.

Costs
Venue/overhead
Effort running the event
Prizes

Income
Entry fees
Purchasing Magic-y things (e.g., singles and packs)
Purchasing other things (e.g., food and drinks)

What the players get in exchange for their money
Prizes
Venue
The tournament itself
The running of the event (to a greater or lesser extent)
The judging of the event (to a greater or lesser extent)
Entertainment (from various sources, such as friends, the games themselves, side events, meeting people, whatever)

That's it. In order to recoup his costs, the TO gets to charge something to recover that cost and gets to make a little profit. He's providing a service, like going to a baseball game, going to the movies, or fixing the fence in your hard. Moreover, when one goes to an event, he doesn't just go for the prizes; it's one of many factors. In looking at the list of things that I pay for at an event, I would be willing to pay more for a really well run event. However, from my experience, events with really low payouts tend to be poorly run, so it ends up actually being doubly bad rather than offsetting benefits and costs.

The only real difference I see here between this and buying really marked up T-shirts from <insert sweatshop brand here> is that there is low supply and negotiation actually takes place between the buyer and the seller (at least theoretically). I think Vintage players are generally too stingy. However, at the same time, this is why I like cash prizes: the cut is completely transparent and is directly correlated with the prizes that are paid out, unlike some schemes such as the one mentioned above where the percentage varies significantly depending upon the number of players.

I think players can rationally choose not to go to an event because the prizes are too low. While Samite Healer suggests that not going if the prizes are 75% but going if the prizes are 85% is foolish, I can't agree because this could be the one straw that breaks the camel's back. Prizes do matter and as the prize support goes down, even by one percentage point, attendance can and should fall. However, if the event was really well run, I would probably be cool with 75%.

Finally, I think the overlooked variable is cost of getting to the event, which is significant in the US. People have to drive a few hours to get to events and this drives up costs. Consequently, they want to make up for that in the prize pool, which is understandable to some extent. But that's just one more thing to bargain about.

Basically, I think the players just need to talk to the shop owners and work it out. And I really mean talk and work it out. The players need to admit that a 100% payout is ridiculous because the TOs have costs and are providing a service and the TOs need to admit that a 50% payout is ridiculous because players could potentially hold their own events somewhere else and the two need to find some sort of median. In the alternative (and I strongly encourage this just to keep costs down), players should look for free or low cost venues on their own in order to have a higher payout. 

Also, regarding "expectations" and "owing it" to various people, that needs to go away. Players don't "owe it" to the stores to buy things from them because they're open. Stores don't "owe it" to the players to payout 100% because the players decide to show up.

Oh, and by the way, when the sides don't make an agreement, the worst thing of all happens: we don't get events and nobody gets anything.

This really is not that hard.

[MISTERTREK]

FIXED

Well since this poll was started about me, I guess I'll chime in. To start my post let me define my situation. I do not own a store. My events were originally run at the local community college, but a political change at the campus ended our tour there. I now run my events at a store who's owner is kind enough to let me use the space for the day. His thoughts are that he gets people into the store that would not normally be there during a slow time and might make purchases. Since I do not have a store, most of my prizes come from Ebay. Occasionally I do pick-up a prize worthy card elsewhere, but this is rare. My expenses for an event usually include a fee payed to my judge, my website (since the only reason I have one is to communicate info on my events), a Constant Contact account to e-mail, flyer copies taken to local major events for promotion, my initial cost outlay for prizes, and of course my time from 8am-8pm on the day of the event. On a note about the last item, I work for Comcast, and could if I wanted work an overtime day on a Saturday. That would be an 8+ hour workday at roughly $35 an hour. So, if I just wanted to make money, I could be a good little comtech and come and clean up all the Radio Shack junk that people try to run their internet and HD connections on. LOL.

Instead I choose to try and maintain contact with the Magic community by networking with the many people I have met over the years, offering a service, and staying in touch with the game. Personally I am an awful player, and my 1498 DCI rating attests to that! My usual events have a $25 entry fee and will have 1-2 Beat to shit P9 prizes and other beat crap for 3rd-4th. I started offering 5th-8th prizes at 40+ players last year, and started with draft sets, but based on player feedback, changed that starting with my January event, changed that to a (WOW) FOW. That was given out at 2 of my 3 2009 events, with 1 event not meeting the player total. To change things up at this event, I offered a Delta instead (roughly same value). I decided to change this event to a $20 entry fee for 2 reasons. We are running a side event with all proceeds going to Dan Herd's memorial fund and wanted people to donate extra funds there. Second, my June event is for a Lotus with a higher entry fee.

In response to AJ's statement that I have never bumped my prizes based on attendance, that is totally true, except for one instance. At my last Lotus event, 2nd place went from a Timetwister to a Time Walk and 8th - 16th were given store credit. Additional store credit has also been given out at other events. To his defense, I did not grandly announce these bumps, but simply awarded those players as they finished. Perhaps poor communication skills on my part. Granted, bumps from me usually have to come in the for of store credit since I do not always have "prize worthy" singles available as a back up, since as I stated I don't have access to purchase this stuff often.

As my original post on the tourney announcement stated, I payed $320 for the 1st - 4th prizes. I was projecting about 30 players as is typical for a smaller event. That would make my take $280. But if you factor in the other expenses mentioned above, it would work out to about $200.  Will I make some money selling cards? Maybe, but I usually buy at least as much as I sell. Will I make money on my T2 event? A little, usual T2 is about $50, but especially after a new set is release, T2 turnout is low since new decks are not mainstream yet.  So, that would make my day at about $300 for the day. The side event was all being donated to charity and I put up a $100 prize for that. So, all in all, if it came down to just money and time, I could have worked my regular job and done better.

If anyone who reads this don't think that traditional business practices in the US are not a 100% mark-up have not worked in the real world. To state things in Magic terms, WOTC sells booster boxes to stores at $72, that's $2 per pack. MSRP is $4. For those of you that are fortunate enough to still have a job, I'm sure things work very similar for cost vs. sales at your place of employment. Service industry c vs. s can very a lot, but are usually even more swayed.

So, I guess my next question is was the problem my entry fee or the prize support? Would I like to be able to offer power at a $20 entry fee? Sure, but since I cant buy it at a dealers buy price, it makes that hard. So what is the answer? I'm asking for a LOGICAL solution from the community based on ALL this info. I'm sure the TO bashers will weigh in, and hey this is America you're allowed to, but this is America, and unless you're living with mom & dad still, products and services cost money.

AJ, I'm sorry if I've pissed you off and felt one of my statements was childish (as I said they were just examples), but until you're the bashee and not the basher, it's hard to understand the other side. The one statement you made that really troubled me was when i said you could have called or emailed me to talk about the event and offered suggestions and you said you shouldn't have to. You're right, you shouldn't HAVE to, but could have WANTED to. That's a big problem in this world, people often do or don't do what they HAVE to, but I rarely think about could have WANTED to do.

Thanks for the time on the soapbox, stepping down for now.

Learn to spell check.

'ruffly'! Seriously? lol

Many thanks from the helpful English prof!

[Demonic Attorney]

I'd really like it if we could have one conversation on this subject that doesn't devolve into flames and interpersonal hostility.  Just saying.

[Matt]

One somewhat disturbing undercurrent I've caught in this thread is that some people seem upset to even have this discussion. Yes, people can "vote with their feet" and they should, but operating in that way doesn't really let market forces play out, since the T.O. doesn't know for sure why his turnout was crappy if people don't tell him. A player who didn't come to an event might have any number of reasons:

-prize payout was too low
-no interest in the format
-they plain just didn't hear about it (insufficient advertising)

and there's no way to find that out directly; you can't very well survey people who aren't there!

Putting myself in the TO's shoes: sure, I could try running the tournament again with some variation, but that means a significant outlay of time and money, and there's no guarantee that I addressed the actual problem, and on top of all that I run the risk of having the few players who DID come to the first event sit the next one out "because no one will be there." No, it's much safer to just run events I can be assured of happening like Standard or Draft.

Finding out what your customer base wants and expects from your products and services is extremely valuable information to a well-run business. There's entire industries devoted to this in the corporate world. This is very much a useful topic to discuss.

[TD]

On a note about the last item, I work for Comcast, and could if I wanted work an overtime day on a Saturday. That would be an 8+ hour workday at ruffly $35 an hour. So, if I just wanted to make money, I could be a good little comtech and come and clean up all the Radio Shack junk that people try to run their internet and HD connections on. LOL.

Instead I choose to try and maintain contact with the Magic community by networking with the many people I have met over the years, offering a service, and staying in touch with the game.

So what your saying is you run tournaments for the good of the magic community because you love vintage rather than to make money? That's interesting Mike because I recall you singing a different tune when we confronted you about your extremely high rake a few months back. Here is the link to what you said and your exact quote.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36964.0

OK, I guess it's time to set the record straight. MIKE RUNS EVENTS TO MAKE MONEY!!! Clear and honest. Now why, well because that what I am in business to do. I don't hear people complaining when Grey Matter or SCG make much more money at their events??? Other T1 events may seem like they are charity run events, but someone is running the event for more than just having a good time. I don't own a store, so I can't run an event, with the flipside of making money on other sales while the players are there or return to play other things. I am not a player, so I don't win prizes that I will turn around and use as my prizes. I don't deal at other events, so I'm not out there buying cards at wholesale. And, I am there for 12 hours on my day off from work, plus prep time before the event.

OK, I guess it's time to set the record straight. MIKE RUNS EVENTS TO MAKE MONEY!!! Clear and honest. Now why, well because that what I am in business to do.

So which is it Mike? First you say you are in it as a "Business" to "MAKE MONEY". Then when your outlandish rake is called into question by now 50 community members your defense is "So, if I just wanted to make money, I could.....".

You know the more you try to defend what you are doing the more you contradict yourself. I love going to your events, I love playing against the tri-state area's finest, I love competing for vintage player of the year, and I love the friends I've made just from going to your events. I've already decided to not bother making the trip out to this months event, as many of your regulars that I've spoken to have also decided, and I'm seriously considering giving up Blue Bell tournaments all together. 

It's one thing to complain about his business model, but it's quite another to make it personal, which this sort of post does. Keep it away from the personal level, please.
-Godder

[Yare]

Making money off an event is not somehow evil, which was part of what I was trying to explain above. It's called "business." It's also possible to have mixed motives for hosting an event and there's nothing wrong with that. This whole thing is a matter of degree, not a black and white issue.

[ashiXIII]

On a note about the last item, I work for Comcast, and could if I wanted work an overtime day on a Saturday. That would be an 8+ hour workday at ruffly $35 an hour. So, if I just wanted to make money, I could be a good little comtech and come and clean up all the Radio Shack junk that people try to run their internet and HD connections on. LOL.

Instead I choose to try and maintain contact with the Magic community by networking with the many people I have met over the years, offering a service, and staying in touch with the game.

So what your saying is you run tournaments for the good of the magic community because you love vintage rather than to make money? That's interesting Mike because I recall you singing a different tune when we confronted you about your extremely high rake a few months back. Here is the link to what you said and your exact quote.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36964.0

OK, I guess it's time to set the record straight. MIKE RUNS EVENTS TO MAKE MONEY!!! Clear and honest. Now why, well because that what I am in business to do. I don't hear people complaining when Grey Matter or SCG make much more money at their events??? Other T1 events may seem like they are charity run events, but someone is running the event for more than just having a good time. I don't own a store, so I can't run an event, with the flipside of making money on other sales while the players are there or return to play other things. I am not a player, so I don't win prizes that I will turn around and use as my prizes. I don't deal at other events, so I'm not out there buying cards at wholesale. And, I am there for 12 hours on my day off from work, plus prep time before the event.

OK, I guess it's time to set the record straight. MIKE RUNS EVENTS TO MAKE MONEY!!! Clear and honest. Now why, well because that what I am in business to do.

So which is it Mike? First you say you are in it as a "Business" to "MAKE MONEY". Then when your outlandish rake is called into question by now 50 community members your defense is "So, if I just wanted to make money, I could.....".

You know the more you try to defend what you are doing the more you contradict yourself. I love going to your events, I love playing against the tri-state area's finest, I love competing for vintage player of the year, and I love the friends I've made just from going to your events. I've already decided to not bother making the trip out to this months event, as many of your regulars that I've spoken to have also decided, and I'm seriously considering giving up Blue Bell tournaments all together. 

It's one thing to complain about his business model, but it's quite another to make it personal, which this sort of post does. Keep it away from the personal level, please.
-Godder

I agree with Godder that this post could've been worded in a less hostile way, but that doesn't mean the points aren't valid

[MISTERTREK]

I haven't contradicted myself at all. Just because the first post said I run CCGames to make money, doesn't mean its the only reason. I'm not sure if you have a job, but if you do, do you work just to make money??? I like my job at Comcast for more than one reason. They are different reasons than why I run tournaments, but each has extended future values besides a monetary one.

Now here is one issue inthis who discussion that has not been covered. If players play just for the love of the game, what happens with prizes they win? Some may aslo be a collector and cherish those cards. But many do sell or trade them. If so, do you ever think, well since I only payed $50 to play in the event (entry, travel, misc), I will sell you this Mox, etc for $75. It covers my costs and I make a 30% profit. Hmmmmm food for though.

Now, just to show that I am not the evil god that some feel I am, I'm going to change the entry fee for this event to $2 (I want to be able to pay Nick for judging). If you want to come and play, everyone is still welcome of course.

Please excuse any mis-spelled words prof LOL

[RichardD]

I haven't contradicted myself at all. Just because the first post said I run CCGames to make money, doesn't mean its the only reason. I'm not sure if you have a job, but if you do, do you work just to make money??? I like my job at Comcast for more than one reason. They are different reasons than why I run tournaments, but each has extended future values besides a monetary one.

Now here is one issue inthis who discussion that has not been covered. If players play just for the love of the game, what happens with prizes they win? Some may aslo be a collector and cherish those cards. But many do sell or trade them. If so, do you ever think, well since I only payed $50 to play in the event (entry, travel, misc), I will sell you this Mox, etc for $75. It covers my costs and I make a 30% profit. Hmmmmm food for though.

Now, just to show that I am not the evil god that some feel I am, I'm going to change the entry fee for this event to $2 (I want to be able to pay Nick for judging). If you want to come and play, everyone is still welcome of course.

Please excuse any mis-spelled words prof LOL

$2 and no prizes then?

-------

I too think this is an interesting topic. Mostly because the reason that I am not organizing loads of tournament in The Netherlands right now is because I don't feel there's enough money to be made on them.
I feel one should be able to make at least 10$/hour on a tournament of decent size. (This is after all expenses have been paid!) This usually comes down to 100$ per day. (If you're running multiple events in the same venue on the same day the total profit/gain for them should be 100$ minimum imho.) In case of Europe, I would even make this euros instead of usd.

Quickly calculating a certain one day tournament in The Netherlands:
- Venue = 250 for a whole day
- 2 Judges = 130 (40 pppd plus 25 travel)
- Laptop + Printer + Ink = 10 (because 2 years from now you want new ones)
- Other = 10

That makes up for 500 E on costs alone. Without Prizes!! Or your own income!

Add to that that you wish to give out 75% of your income on prizes -> 1500 E on prizes.!?!?

Lets say that 100 people enter the tournament, that means you'd have to ask 20 E per entry.
In this case that means you haven't earned a thing and still players bitch about prize support because you have only put 75% of your income into prizes!

[Yare]

Now here is one issue inthis who discussion that has not been covered. If players play just for the love of the game, what happens with prizes they win? Some may aslo be a collector and cherish those cards. But many do sell or trade them. If so, do you ever think, well since I only payed $50 to play in the event (entry, travel, misc), I will sell you this Mox, etc for $75. It covers my costs and I make a 30% profit. Hmmmmm food for though.

Again, the motives of each side are just irrelevant. If the player wants to sell the card, he can sell the card. If the store wants to make money, it can make money. That the player makes a profit off the sale of the card doesn't somehow mean the store gets to keep that profit. On the other hand, the store is allowed to make some profit.

Negotiate. Negotiate. Negotiate.

I don't know how else to say it. Please everybody stop pointing fingers and questioning the motives of the other side. This is exactly why we don't have more events.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Negotiate. Negotiate. Negotiate.

...pointing fingers

Isn't the latter an element of the former?


(not that I'm saying these types of negotiations should necessarily go on here on these boards)

[Gaagooch]

Vintage itself is dying down in most areas, including the northeast.  Prize supports have been lowered in the past, and we have had a few conversations very similar to this one.  There is no set number or standard at which everyone will ever agree is the proper amount for a tournament organizer to take in from the tournament itself.  I understand completely that even though it is a hobby for me, it is still a business from the tournament organizer.  Posting threads like this is hardly the best way to go about making this situation better, and/or go away.  Like I said previously, if you have a problem with the support, the answer is as simple as don't show up.  It is a hobby, you aren't always going to make money, playing vintage is not a job as it is not a wizards backed format for the most part.  Vintage is one of the easiest formats of magic to make money in due to the fact that in order to win money in other formats you must either place in the top 64 of a grand prix, or qualify for the pro-tour, and do well at such.  Both of those scenarios require the same or more investment from the player, but the fields that you must play in itself will be doubled at least.  Again, I did vote that this prize support wasn't fair, but that is hardly the point, you decide what you want to do and where you want to go.  If the prize support doesn't tickle your fancy, don't show up, but posting about it is only detrimenting the already slowing vintage scene.

[mike_bergeron]

Like I said previously, if you have a problem with the support, the answer is as simple as don't show up. 

Gaagooch- if this the way to do it, then would you be OK with zero tournaments?  If people silently protested, and all the TO's gave up due to attendance, we would have nothing instead of having what we have now.  I apologize for the vague question, but would you be OK then with not having any tournaments? 

Would people agree to having a tournament fee, to pay for the professional administration and judging, and having this fee be separate of the prize money? The fee now is in the entry cost, which some people have posted feelings that it is too high. 

[Gaagooch]

Like I said previously, if you have a problem with the support, the answer is as simple as don't show up. 

Gaagooch- if this the way to do it, then would you be OK with zero tournaments?  If people silently protested, and all the TO's gave up due to attendance, we would have nothing instead of having what we have now.  I apologize for the vague question, but would you be OK then with not having any tournaments? 

Would people agree to having a tournament fee, to pay for the professional administration and judging, and having this fee be separate of the prize money? The fee now is in the entry cost, which some people have posted feelings that it is too high. 

Regardless of what prize structure a T.O. has he is going to have people attending, he might lose money, he might break even, who knows.  But by not attending his tournament, and not posting about it you are making two things happen.  One you are telling the T.O. that you will not attend unless the structure for prizes is a bit better for you and for others attending.  Two you are not taking business away from him.  Criticizing a T.O.'s prize support is just as, if not more likely to cause him to stop hosting tournaments as you not showing up is.  I haven't attended tournaments for a while based on restrictions of money and sometimes prize support, but the events are still consistenly run, as a smart T.O. realizes that he can make money for his troubles, and provide prizes that will suffice the players.  I am not saying any of this in hopes that all type one tournaments come to and end, that is far from my point, if you want to criticize someone do it on a more personal basis, instead of in the form of this forum.  If you don't like tournament x's prize support and feel it is not good for any player, rather than lobbying everyone to boycott the tournament tell them in a personal message, give them constructive criticism.  We are a community, we must work together as a whole to correct any problems we have, as wizards has no guidlines for us past B&R. 

All i'm really getting at is that if I was running tournaments, which I hope to someday be able to do to help sustain the great vintage community, and people were constantly barraging me with questions about my prize support I would be more likely to not run another tournament then if I had a low turnout.  A low turnout means the method which I tried to use did not work out the way I had wanted it, so I would try to change things to make is a positive for the players and myself.  Now don't mistake this as me saying im for T.O.'s taking upwards of 30-40% of the prize pool, I do not like that, but in the end, it is a business for these people.  Nothing will ever be perfect, but if you keep dragging different T.O.'s names through the mud, eventually there will be none left...

[Harlequin]

But by not attending his tournament, and not posting about it you are making two things happen.  One you are telling the T.O. that you will not attend unless the structure for prizes is a bit better for you and for others attending.  Two you are not taking business away from him. 

That's a bit of a reach. By not attending the event and not posting about it, there is very little the TO can do to gather information about why you did show up.  As others have said, you could not have attended for many many reasons.  For example I was unable to attend the last Myriad Event, was this because I was dissatified with anything? No - a good friend was up from Washington DC, and wanted to hang out (and he doesn't play magic). 

I do agree that there are more descrete ways to voice your dissatification with any aspect of a tournement, but we shouldn't automatically tie 'bad feedback' with some sort of ill-deed.  And I also agree that as a community, as will all things on the internets, we are much more vocal with critism than praise.  And there is a point about being careful not to drag TO's (or anyone) through the Mud.

[Suicideking]

I would just prefer if TOs just said what percentage they were going to keep upfront.  If I go and get all my friends to attend a tourney, and say 40 people show up, and all I see besides a mox is dollar signs in the TOs eyes then Im not going to be happy.

As a player more people means more rounds and a harder time making prize, so we will want to be adequately rewarded for our efforts or else going isnt worth it.  If the world series of poker decided they were just going to give out a million dollars in prizes regardless of who shows up, and they got 6000 people, the players would be irate.  I dont care what percentage people think is fair but I just think its right to be clear about your intended rake ahead of time and I think you can stick with that.  Granted If you get 10 people you will be screwed But if you get 60 you will do quite well.

[mike_bergeron]

I think it is my right to ask, but I do not think the TO even has to respond to something like that, or justify it other than how they announce their tourney.  I can ask Toyota how much it costs to make a Corolla, but I do not think they have to tell me. 

after reading through each of these replies, my opinion is that tourney prizes have literally nothing to do with attendance at vintage tournaments.  if there are players who stay away from a tourney due to lack of prizes (in my area) then those are players I couldn't care less about retaining if I was a TO.  they are the player who bitches and moans, never buys anything, and tries to rip off the 12 year old who opens a goyf.  Don't need em, don't want em. 




edit: Corolla is hard to spell?

[Yare]

after reading through each of these replies, my opinion is that tourney prizes have literally nothing to do with attendance at vintage tournaments.  if there are players who stay away from a tourney due to lack of prizes (in my area) then those are players I couldn't care less about retaining if I was a TO.  they are the player who bitches and moans, never buys anything, and tries to rip off the 12 year old who opens a goyf.  Don't need em, don't want em.

Ok, all Vintage events will now have $20 entry fees and first place will be a mint Fourth Edition Merfolk of the Pearl Trident. Clearly attendance won't be affected and the players clearly shouldn't care about the prize.

Prizes matter. Like I said, though, they're just one factor. And like I said above, it's a matter of degree.

[mike_bergeron]

after reading through each of these replies, my opinion is that tourney prizes have literally nothing to do with attendance at vintage tournaments.  if there are players who stay away from a tourney due to lack of prizes (in my area) then those are players I couldn't care less about retaining if I was a TO.  they are the player who bitches and moans, never buys anything, and tries to rip off the 12 year old who opens a goyf.  Don't need em, don't want em.

Ok, all Vintage events will now have $20 entry fees and first place will be a mint Fourth Edition Merfolk of the Pearl Trident. Clearly attendance won't be affected and the players clearly shouldn't care about the prize.

Prizes matter. Like I said, though, they're just one factor. And like I said above, it's a matter of degree.

Like I said the first time, people who stay away because of prizes in my area are simply whining about nothing.  Prizes are not affecting attendance in any way.