GWb or RWb Aggro control: The answer to mana drain?

[Guli]

First of all I would like to say that I didn't include some cards that may seem as auto includes. This is because I believer that there is no such thing as an auto include for aggro control. I find it much more important that players can justify their card choices. That doesn't mean that every card is acceptable. This deck doesn't pack bad cards. I did have to cut some good cards to make room for other cards that I felt was necessary.

I would like to start with what I think is a great addition to my game plan with Aether Vial and Vexing Shusher. Vial and Shusher are in the deck to outplay mana drain and force of will. Other applications are for example avoiding Chalice of the Void and generally strengthening the match up against shop and prison with vial. Chalice of the void is by the way the card that will add that extra power to an already existing idea with vials and strong utility bears. I want to respond to the critics made against vial with this thread. I do think the problem with vial, which is that you are giving the opponent a window to make the kill turn 1, is an issue that CAN be solved. My solution is to simply generate more flow in the deck. Casting down disruptive elements, this can be creatures or non-creatures, while the vial is growing.

I was using Noble Hierarch to test him out in every possible way, with Rod or Vial. I liked the Hierarch in both versions. However me liking the card is not an argument at all. Hierarch is a strong card though and could be added in a lot of lists with the appropriate colors. However with vial it becomes hard. Not because she competes with vial. No she actually works very well with vial generating more mana and can be vialed in as a 1 drop. But more fundamentally vial needs other kinds of support to become stronger. Free ways of generating mana, and free ways of generating disruption until vial kicks in hard and brutal.

Even with vials I fear the shop match up. Even with Qasali + Vial I am not comfortable with a mana base full of non-basics. I want a green manabase with Shusher. Every land will give me green mana. So that means I will only use forest as a basic land type. It is hard to work in black in GW but if you limit your black to Dark Confdiant and SB cards like Diabolic Edict and Jailer it is very doable. Besides against dredge and tinker you don't face any form of mana denial so you can go fetch that Bayou easily.

I am not using Gaddock TeeG. The role he plays against Force of Will is taken up by vial and shusher. I can't both play teeg and chalice but that is not my main reason not to play teeg. The role against tezz, Shop and ichorid is easily (and maybe even better) matched by Qasali. Against aggro Qasali is better it helps with exalted and gets rid of Null Rod. Not easy for me to drop teeg but I thought long about this and I think it is a good call. The tendrils match is not solved with Qasali but I think Canonist and Aven are really the ones that should be used right now anyway.

As for draw, I want Confidant, the reason I am adding black. He is just the best out there in what he does. And black also gives me good SB options vs tinker and ichorid. But, that is not the only draw engine I run.

I run the Aven maindeck, 4 copies, however to solve a tinker/ink AFTER resolution they won't do much. I didn't just want to add archers. But I think deathtouch is good way to deal with Ink. Ohran Viper is additional draw, good against aggro and makes your worry less against Tinker before Aven. Path to Exile is also maindeck to wipe away the DC or any form of aggro. Since there is no mana denial theme present there is really no drawback to exile. You don't want to give them a time walk by STP'ing their DC.

While I write I forgot the second important addition to my vial list. A card that is actually very logical if we talk about green. Well green gained a lot the last sets. But what free green acceleration was ran in those stomp decks in the past? Elvish Spirit Guides of course... Thanks to the article Stephen wrote I was inspired again. I need free acceleration? I need on color mana? ESG is the card to play next to vial instead of Noble.

With the addition of Chalice of the Void and Elvish Spirit Guide I think Aether Vial becomes much more interesting even for the skeptical among us. There is no fear of Chalice@2, Vial+Shusher solve that effectively. In fact YOU are the one who wants to set Chalice 0-1-2 as soon as you can. Chalice 0 is easy I only added 3 mox, and chalice@1 is also no problem because the only 1 mana spell are vial and exiles and those you don't need against DARK RITUAL. So you can set that chalice@0 very early and try to get a Chalice@1-2 follow up. Aven and Canonist should slow down effectively. Rebuild/hurk stays a problem here but doesn't remove Aven which is very important against all the tutors. In order to find that bounce they most likely will have to tutor it up. So Aven will play a critical role against combo when they are in 'search for answers' mode. Though, i still felt it was necessary to reinforce the combo match up so I added 2 copies of Orim's chant (answers Rebuild/Hurk). They interact with vial nicely and can buy time when you want those Confidants and/or Vipers to really pay of an find more lock threats/answers.

So here is the list I created, I welcome everybody to comment on this one. It is a much more dangerous than the previous Mr. Gaddock. I may not run Gaddock (for now, can change later when drain is less dominant) but the concept is still here.

4x Ather Vial
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Emerald/Pearl/Black Lotus
1x Forest
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
2x Bayou

4x Vexing Shusher
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x 'Goyf

4x Dark Confidant
2x Ohran Viper
3x Path to Exile
2x Orim's Chant

4x Chalice of the Void

SB:
4x Yixlid Jailer
2x Elephant Grass
2x Pithing Needle
3x Seal of Primordium
4x Diabolic Edict

This list is designed to outplay mana drain decks.

It does well against aggro. Null Rod doesn't do that much anymore. (In previous versions it did) You have the draw, removal and numbers

Shop is hard without Vial. Vial turns the table though. Qasali is handy.Confidant is strong here too. There is some seals/needles in side

Ichorid is not an easy match but with that sideboard games 2 and 3 should be interesting.

Combo should be a good match as well. Teeg could have helped out against combo but really if they have the bounce teeg doesn't stop it. I like Canonist and Aven here and a well timed Orim's Chant. Chalice also helps a lot early on.

Oath comes down to Shusher/Vial + Qasali. Really should not be a hard match if played right. There is also a lot of SB options here.


Well that is it I guess, eager to hear the comments from everybody, but specifically from a couple of individuals on the forum, thanks hope you enjoyed this piece.

Guli

[T1scrub]

it might sound strange , but : this deck is to slow

first turn vial is not competitive in vintage
the only lonly nice first turn drop you have is confidant -.-

mindsensor is ok , but not that powerful to harm draincontrol as well as other disruption spells (fow / duress ... )


another problem is that you can t play rods (i know you don t ) coz of vials -.- , while (rods) are much stronger than cotv ...

the next point is that you are not able to play wastelands with this deck which is a serious leack of power against draincontrol -.-

in the end : you got only less disruption (chants chalice) you are slowly , and : you are just not competitive to vintage with such a deck -.-


sry

[Guli]

You are welcome to post a Null Rod version as well. The problem though will be the mana base, hard to run wasteland with GWb and have a solid mana base.

The list I posted is not 1 day's work. It has been tested against several competent players and one of them will take it to a tournament soon. I asked to report it to me so I can redirect it to this forum.

I believe the colors green/white and a little black provide an aggro control with the most effective answers for the drain/tezz heavy meta. Feel welcome to post your thoughts about the chosen colors. Even if you don't like the list with vial, thoughts can be posted about the splash of black and some card choices.

Chalice is not just to stop moxes, in fact I use it more often to set @1 and @2 instead of @0. Depends on the match up.

In the end almost the entire deck is disruption. There are no bad creatures in this deck, all rock solid and effective in what they suppose to do.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Maybe it is just me but I thought the whole point of running Vial in Vintage was to do 3 things:

#1. Leave mana open to cast counterspells or other usefull instants without costing creature drops.
#2. Run full artifact acceleration and powerful equipment (Jitte) since you don't run Null Rod.
#3. Get creatures in play through Standstill/Chalice.

Your deck just seems to sacrifice a remarkable amount of disruption for only half a reason. (the worst reason to begin with no less) I mean if you don't start with Vial in your opening hand I don't see how you can possibly put pressure down fast enough against fully powered decks and unpowered decks have Null Rod to shut it down in addition to running double the goyfs you do. Not to mention your first turn would still be spent not disrupting them or drawing cards. In addition to that Gaddock Teeg isn't just to answer FoW. It stops every bomb in Vintage except for Tinker/Will/Necro/Welder. Bargain/Gifts/FoF/Desire/Jar/Smokestack/Tendrils/EtW/Massacre/Dread Return/RtR/Ad Nauseum/Tezz/Skeletal Scrying/Belcher/Deep Anal/Breakthrough/etc. I mean the synergy between Teeg and Chalice is blatantly obvious in that you can cut off everything except a few select CMCs and Teeg+2xChalice should basically be game over.

On a positive note good thinking on Ohran Viper. Since you don't run blue it acts as both a draw engine and an answer to Inkwell since it basically has deathtouch and the 3 toughness makes it a beast.

[Othar]

From now on I will call Deep Analysis "Deep Anal". Wow. That is priceless.

This didn't add anything to the discussion. Verbal Warning for spam.
-Godder

[Guli]

I don't want to carry this thread too much on my own however I could not resist. I just had to answer the very interesting remarks of FlyFlySideOfFry.

#1. Leave mana open to cast counterspells or other usefull instants without costing creature drops.

Yes, I have vial versions that just do that. Instant tutoring of creatures and vial it in right there in response to whatever the opponent is doing. Very very powerful way too use vial. However if you do run instants and counters this means you are running less threats. I have learned, and I would like to share that knowledge via this forum, that the best way to go with vial is running your counters and disruption inside the creatures. This reveals the true power of vial and aggro control. You run walking time walks, seals, vials, arcane labs, blood moons, force of wills... If you play like this you don't have to separate your disruption and beaters. Still additional FREE disruption like Force of Will is added to use as much resources in your hand as possible. For example you draw 7 cards in your opening hand but you can't use half of them because they come down one by one. That is why Force is so good. You maximize the utilization of the resources you hold. Vial helps solving this problem starting from turn 2 and becomes stronger and stronger the longer the game goes on, if there is a draw engine because otherwise vial isn't worth it. You need to keep that vial active and make the most of it, let it pay off the early sacrifice. So I figured, Chalice is the way to go. Chalice is underestimated. Yes it can be bounced or removed. However that is how fish works. You cast multiple threats and some of them are going to get bounced while others keep up the pressure. Cutting down the roads to victory. Coming to your second point,

#2. Run full artifact acceleration and powerful equipment (Jitte) since you don't run Null Rod.

,
The usage of additional artifacts that work with an activation will make you more vulnerable to Null Rod itself. You will get crushed against fish if you don't get in a Qasali. Elvish spirit guide avoids Null Rod. If Null Rod only hits your vial and 2mox+lotus then you don't have to worry about Rod. You can run more acceleration but I repeat, you want threats, threats that cost 1-2 mana and threats that cost 0-1 mana so they can be played in combination and with smoothness.
About your last point,

#3. Get creatures in play through Standstill/Chalice.

, that is what I do here. I lock down the 0-1-2 cc area's and still am able to play out my deck with Vial/Shusher. But that game plan does not stand alone. It is parallel with the usual things fish does like turn 1 canonist or turn 1 dark confidant. Or turn 1 vial followed by turn 2 Aven or Shusher. There are many plays possible. Turn 1 Chalice@1 is something I do often as well if I am holding a Shusher.

Standstill / Vial is old news. I don't like it. There is only 1 creature that is worth the blue and that is meddling mage. Gilded Drake is not good enough. Cursecatcher could also be a nice way to use vial but to be honest blue goes well with Null Rod because blue has got Daze/Stifle/Curse. But blue does not have very strong creatures. The strong relevant creatures are in green and white now and black simply has the Confidant which is so strong. Strong enough to splash black taking into account that there are nice SB options with black for the current meta.

Summarize:
Vial is not a passive card. It is very interactive and can end games when used right. Those vial/counter decks are outdated, at least for me. I tend to cast disruptive elements while the vial grows. This is not sitting on a counter spell. This is playing active and preemptive addressing the issues on the board.

Note:
Sometimes I get the impression that people just judge vial way too harsh, I am playing it and sharing my findings about the card. If you didn't test the card for a long period of time (months) then why label it. It is not crime to have a the wrong image about a card. However try not to judge to quickly either. I get the feeling that the idea about vial here (for most people) is that you cast it turn 1 and then you die because you haven't done anything relevant. They somehow kill you every time you cast a turn 1 vial? Reality is that this does NOT happen often at all. People draw bad hands they mulli, they go for scroll / recall. Sure sometimes land/crypt/tinker happens as well and then you can't force of will it. That is true. But that does not happen consistently at all. And when it does happen and you are as lucky as the opponent you also drew your answer to the DC or Ink. The window of opportunity that arises for the opponent,when you land/vial/end turn, seems to be SO scary that the card is being dismissed on the spot. This is a mistake. If you know you are playing fast combo, you just give priority to the anti-combo cards. Chalice@0-1, Canonist, Aven, Orim. If you don't play Combo then what is the problem? Your vial will get active in time what is the rush? I just don't see why fish list with vial are being stomped down so easily. If nobody uses it, 'because it sux on definition', then I don't see how the value of the card can be evaluated.

T

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

The thing is though that you only run 4 slots to stop key/vault and all but 2 of your anti-tendrils slots (of which you only run 10) can be bounced by all of chain/hurkyl/rebuild which combo runs about 10 of between actual slots and tutors. Not to mention 1/2 your spells (aka 2/3 of your deck with mana sources included) do nothing to disrupt your opponent. Then the last 1/2 of your spells are mostly specific threats for win conditions that can be dead in a lot of matchups or if not drawn at the right time. My problem with your proposed list isn't Vial and I don't care if you want to run it because it IS a good card. My problem is that your list doesn't run enough real disruption to live long enough to make use of Vial. I don't see any reasonable 7-card hand (because obviously the nuts is nuts) with turn 1 Vial that can stop or even slow down a turn 2 goldfish or turn 3 goldfish with a FoW/Thoughtseize/Drain (which isn't uncommon at all with ANT/TPS/Belcher/Ichorid/Tezz). I mean if your deck can make it to like turn 4 then I guess it can do something but there are a billion decks that can work if they can make it to turn 4 without disrupting the opponent so why not actually WIN by turn 4 rather than maybe drop your second creature then. I mean the best hands you can hope for DON'T have Vial in them. GWb is not the color scheme for Vial and that list is a good reason why.

Then the actual disruption you DO run is all in slow permanent form(except Chalice). Meaning they are static abilities that don't do anything to slow down your opponent at all unless they're just trying to goldfish their win conditions. Compare that to fast permanent disruption like Meddling Mage, Gorilla Shaman, Cursecatcher, Null Rod, or TIDEHOLLOW SCULLER. I mean Tidehollow Sculler is probably the best creature any deck running black and white could ever hope for and you don't run it because of your bad mana base necessary to support worse creatures. Duress+non-legendary Isamaru in 1 card? Hell yeah? Your deck runs no direct disruption and your opponents can essentially goldfish against you until they find the apropriate bounce and win. This is why Fish decks need FoW/Duress/Null Rod/etc. All-creature decks are cute but not usually effective.

GWb may be the right color setup to destroy drains but that list doesn't seem to be able to do that at all and an optimized list will probably not have Aether Vial. The most direct comparisson is between your list and Smmenen's. He only runs 8 non-disruptive cards and can fit in the 5 strips because his deck effectively attacks the opponent's hand+mana+deck+win conditions all at once while your deck feebly prods your opponent's hand with ONLY Chalice and tries to counter certain win conditions while letting them essentially goldfish.

I mean if this deck is working for you thats great but I would be really shocked to see it top-8 in a competant tournament. Don't take me the wrong way I just think you're way too hung up on Vial and you're trying to cram a square peg into a round hole to try and prove a point. Vial works, just not in this deck.

[Guli]

only 4 slots to stop key/vault?

Aven stops Tezz, Qasali stopt Tezz, Chalice can be set to stop vault or key if they want to cast it. Canonist helps to slow down their 'gold fishing'. You make it sound like this list does absolutely nothing. It just doesn't do a lot of mana denial that is all. I am aware that things get bounced but thanks to vial the only relevant bounce is rebuild or hurk recall. Aven and Canonist can successfully weaken the game plan of control while Qasali needs to be dealt with as well if they want to combo. Not being able to counter is a serious setback for control. Usually they can counter a Canonist or Aven but dealing with both can be extremely hard because they need to topdeck the rebuild or hurk recall.

Don't speculate too much, it doesn't work out like that.

[Tin_Mox5831]

I like the direction this deck wants to move in. I think that if you really want to beat Tezzeret however, the best way to do so is to play more Duress effects.

Here's the list I brewed up after the Pittsburgh Mox tournament:

Mana:
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet

Utility:
1 Life From The Loam
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Qasali Pride-Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tarmogoyf

Disruption:
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
2 Thoughtseize
4 Null Rod
4 Duress

---------

Sideboard:
4 Yixlid Jailer
3 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Extirpate

It's not perfect or anything, but I really like the basic premise. Having 10 copies of Duress is pretty nice against Tezzeret and TPS. In my testing on MWS, I've even been able to snag an Ichorid player's only dredger with a first turn Tidehollow Sculler. Granted, that's definitely the exception rather than the rule since there are so few accelerants in the deck. The sideboard is a concession to the power of Ichorid as well as some nice blanket answers in Needle and Extirpate.

[JDawg13]

I've just played a few games with this deck on Workstation, just this deck against Tezzeret, both decks piloted by me.  Tez won handily in every game.  I'm by no means an expert with Tez or this deck, so it's probably a fair test.  My sample size is pretty small, I'm sure this deck could beat Tez every now and then, but I don't think it could win consistently.  The biggest problem with Vial, and this whole deck in general, is just that it is way too slow.  If your first turn is Savannah -> Vial, a fair number of Tez hands will just be able to win before the Vial even comes online.  

Sure, Mindcensor can slow down Tez...for a turn.  That might be enough for you to beat for the kill, but more often than not I'm sure it would just be a speed bump.

Chalice at 0 would definitely be a good play, but I think trying to cast it for 1 or 2 is going to be met with either a Mana Drain, fueling a big turn, or bounce, or simply ignoring it and going for the Tinker route instead.

Canonist, Shusher and Pridemage are all fine dudes.

Okay, enough critiquing.  How do I think this deck could be improved?  I'd start with the Vials, they're best when you can follow them up with either some sort of disruption the following turn.  This deck is likely to follow up a 1st turn Vial with either nothing, waiting for Vial to come online, or a creature that's likely to run right into a Force/Drain (unless it's Shusher, of course).  That's right, I'm assuming Vial isn't important enough for the Tez player to counter.  If you're going to insist on playing Vial, I'd think about adding some Duresses or Thoughtsiezes so you can follow up the Vial with a relevant play the following turn.  If I were to remove the Vials, I would do so with Null Rods, card for card.  The rest of the deck might need some tweaking as well if that change is made, and to be honest, I think the endpoint would be Steve's GW deck he just wrote about.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, I hope some of them were helpful.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

only 4 slots to stop key/vault?

Aven stops Tezz, Qasali stopt Tezz, Chalice can be set to stop vault or key if they want to cast it. Canonist helps to slow down their 'gold fishing'. You make it sound like this list does absolutely nothing. It just doesn't do a lot of mana denial that is all. I am aware that things get bounced but thanks to vial the only relevant bounce is rebuild or hurk recall. Aven and Canonist can successfully weaken the game plan of control while Qasali needs to be dealt with as well if they want to combo. Not being able to counter is a serious setback for control. Usually they can counter a Canonist or Aven but dealing with both can be extremely hard because they need to topdeck the rebuild or hurk recall.

Don't speculate too much, it doesn't work out like that.

All I read from that is "Aven, Canonist, Qasali". Don't get me wrong but you need to run more than 12 conditional disruption cards in a deck. Players can still cast 2 cards a turn through Canonist (not counting artifacts) and Aven doesn't stop draw spells or most bombs. Also I said key/vault not Tezz. Maybe you don't realise that a player doesn't need Tezzeret in play to combo with Time Vault+Voltaic Key or that any 2 power creature stops Tezzeret. You mention that they can't counter. Ummm what? Are you planning on just doing nothing but tapping Vial and playing a land every turn? This is why I said Vial needs Instants to be good because it makes all your creatures uncounterable and casting EOT counters on their own turn to stop your Instants are bad for a control player. Your deck doesn't do nothing, it does almost nothing. You don't attack their mana, you don't attack their hand, you barely attack their main deck strategy, and you don't run counterspells. Look at Tin_Mox5831's and Smmenen's lists. THOSE looks like a real fish deck with actual quality disruption backed by a clock. Your list looks like it couldn't even handle Legacy decks. I mean all you have to stop Key/Vault is 4xPridemage, and all you have to stop Tinker->Leviathan is 2xOhran Viper. How exactly do you plan to beat Drain strategies?

With the addition of Chalice of the Void and Elvish Spirit Guide I think Aether Vial becomes much more interesting even for the skeptical among us. There is no fear of Chalice@2, Vial+Shusher solve that effectively. In fact YOU are the one who wants to set Chalice 0-1-2 as soon as you can. Chalice 0 is easy I only added 3 mox, and chalice@1 is also no problem because the only 1 mana spell are vial and exiles and those you don't need against DARK RITUAL. So you can set that chalice@0 very early and try to get a Chalice@1-2 follow up. Aven and Canonist should slow down effectively. Rebuild/hurk stays a problem here but doesn't remove Aven which is very important against all the tutors. In order to find that bounce they most likely will have to tutor it up. So Aven will play a critical role against combo when they are in 'search for answers' mode. Though, i still felt it was necessary to reinforce the combo match up so I added 2 copies of Orim's chant (answers Rebuild/Hurk). They interact with vial nicely and can buy time when you want those Confidants and/or Vipers to really pay of an find more lock threats/answers.

It seems like your plan is to just hope you draw 2xChalice of the Voids without tutors and a few Avens/Canonists and cast them all by turn 4 off a Lotus+Vial or something. I mean in the 4 pages of text you've typed I still don't understand why you've made what seem to be bad choices and you're not justifying anything beyond the few obviously good cards. Maybe I'm just not asking the right questions.




What is the main strategy of the deck and how are those 75 cards you've chosen the best way to accomplish that strategy?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Having just finished 10-15 games against Guli with 3.5 different decks, here are my conclusions.

Guli's build is rock solid against Selkie Strike.  Honestly, the matchup makes me question Selkie Strike's SB.

Meh against Tezz.  It's not bad...I'd rather take Selkie Strike into a Tezz meta.

Worse than meh vs. Time-Key Oath (Tezz post-board).  Pridemage and Edict are nice, but only go so far.  It took superbly poor play from me for him to get near winning.

Much worse than meh vs. storm combo.  He has no real answers to Inky main.  While some of his cards shut down avenues of play, they leave far too many open.


Overall...I like the deck, but Edicts should be main.  Viper is interesting, but hard to find and underwhelming.  Sculler is a desirable addition since it makes him much more proactive if he runs it.  Thorn of Amethyst is also deeply interesting, but possibly too redundant with Canonist.  Chants were cute, but I'd call them ineffective since the turn he bought never let him lock me out of a line of play.

[Guli]

All I read from that is "Aven, Canonist, Qasali". Don't get me wrong but you need to run more than 12 conditional disruption cards in a deck

There is Chalice of the void and Vial/Shusher for more  control (i don't call it disrupt but control) elements. The removals Path to Exile and Diabolic Edict are also control. Vial is a disruptive element against the drain strategies. If you can't see that, then you have a serious lack of understanding about the whole concept of this deck.

If you wish we can explore the Null Rod version of the 3 colors I propose. For me it is not a MUST to play vial at all.

I don't think the GW beats! Stephen posted is the optimal choice. It lacks clear answers against decks that see play. And it is a budget deck. Splashing black might be the solution and that is what this is thread is about.

What is the main strategy of the deck and how are those 75 cards you've chosen the best way to accomplish that strategy?

When you see 4x Vial and 4x Shusher in a list, would you not think this will cause problems to any control deck? Combine that with effects that weaken their turns and cut them off their deck and you are successfully attacking their main strategy. To find answers, play lot's of spells. Chalice is versatile in this deck. When on the draw you can set it at zero to stop acceleration (slow them down). And when you top deck it, you can play the higher settings without worries of locking yourself down. This ability of chalice can not be used by any fish out there. In this list it CAN and it WILL be used as disruption or protection.

Examples: Chalice at 1 stops a lot goodies out there that can cause problems. STP, Welder, Shaman, etc... Vintage is the format of cheap spells you will nail a broad range of cards. Dark ritual is an important one as well. Numerous examples.
Chalice at 2 is another way to shut down mana drain but also things like hurk recall, oath, time vault, bears (long list), null rod, etc etc
The point is that this list can use Chalice at it best and that makes it dangerous for the opponent. Chalice just for zero is a solid play but most likely not strong enough. The ability to set chalice at any number you desire increases the power level of the card drastically.

Enough about vials, let's explore the same colors with rod. Still i think blue is the more natural color to support mana denial strategies with rod.


I would like to have Duress effects like in Tin_Mox5831's list. The thing that holds me back is the mana base. You will need to fetch a bayou turn 1 to play duress. This leaves things wide open against wasteland. Maybe my concerns are out of place. But having a basic or two gives me a sense of security, and it is not just a sense it does make the mana base more solid. When playing prison or fish, there is heavy mana denial. I played vial/hierarch for a while and basic lands making the match ups very comfortable. However it did compromise the speed of the deck. I removed hierarch and added more speed to the deck with green petals (ESG) and additional free disruption that fits very well in the deck, Chalice of the void. Maybe indeed adding duress effects could help out especially if they are backed up with Shusher. But I would love to hear a good suggestion how to reinforce the mana base to keep the other match ups in balance and also the deck itself because the splash of black could become a burden. I mean by this that adding too much black is also wrong.

Why splash black and compromise the mana base? For me their are is 3 reasons, Dark Confidant, Diabolic Edict, good sb for ichorid.

But I would love to consider duress as well

Can the mana base be stabilized somehow? Unsure about this but it should be possible

[Miaou]

Having played a GWB aggro deck in a couple of tournaments, I would like to post some thoughts.
Playing 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize is really huge. They give you consistant first turn plays that can really mess up opponents strategy. However the big problem here is as you pointed out the necessity to fetch a non basic first turn. Against control this might not be too much of a problem as they generally don't run Wastelands, however against any type of deck running Wastes this is a serious problem. But even there, most control decks in my meta bring in Blood Moon (or Back to Basics for UB variants) post board and if it is out early enough, it buys enough time for them to win.

The absence of an on color fetch (B/G or B/W) is a pretty big problem in my eyes as it is so easy to disrupt you. I'm not sure there is anything to do against that which is why I steered away from this build. Options for a nice mana base include Red Green Black and Red White Green. One lacks white's disruptive creatures, while the other lacks a draw engine. Both can run Shusher pretty optimaly which is nice, as well as REBs which is very nice too. Anyways, enough off topic, good luck with your build

[nineisnoone]

Having played a GWB aggro deck in a couple of tournaments, I would like to post some thoughts.
Playing 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize is really huge.

I agree.  8 isn't necessarily mandatory.  But I wouldn't blame anyone for running it.

Duress is strictly better than Elvish Spirit Guide, imo.  Duress + pass the turn and Elvish Spirit Guide into your turn 2 play are comparable equal, with Duress being better in that it doesn't require another card to be useful.

Othan Viper is very interesting.  I could see it becoming the Ophidian of green-centric aggro builds with Inkwell being common. 

Not really all that big on the Chants.

I don't really like Vial in this particular build.  I like having 1 drops that I want to Vial in.  Compared to Null Rod, I just don't see Vial doing enough to beat it out.  You don't run early disruption.  Your Vial creatures are all 2 mana, meaning that it's at best turn 3.  Null Rod is just drop and go.  I just don't think you have the sort of heavy pressure build that Vial is best in.  You don't have the offensive presence to force them to react. Your disruption isn't as rough either.  Qualis is good, but loses to EOT echoing against Tezz. 

I disagree on Vexing's importance.  The spell that you really want to prevent them from countering is the 2nd disruptive permanent imo.  You always need to play something before him to disrupt your opponent.  In the gap that that disruption creates is where you want to play Vexing.   When you are playing underpowered decks, you are at negative time.  You need early plays that create time.  You can't afford to invest your time in the future, until you've created something to invest with.

I try to avoid 4x cards against Ichorid.  You want to force them to go as much one for one as possible with your disruption.  So it helps protect against a therapy hitting multiple cards in hand. 

[Guli]

I agree, the vial is less good without 1 drops. I am struggling with that myself. But it does enable a quick chalice@1 without hampering anything except vial. Were vial is generally is bad the chalice@1 is generally good.

I disagree on Vexing's importance.  The spell that you really want to prevent them from countering is the 2nd disruptive permanent imo.  You always need to play something before him to disrupt your opponent.  In the gap that that disruption creates is where you want to play Vexing.   When you are playing underpowered decks, you are at negative time.  You need early plays that create time.  You can't afford to invest your time in the future, until you've created something to invest with.

Yea, this is also true for vial. Investing mana and tempo in a permanent that will give a temporary weak moment sounds dangerous. But if you can close the window quickly before the storm hits and follow up with strong counter play the use of such cards is justified.

The list I posted is a reference and changes daily, don't judge it too hard. It is not the list I am promoting but the colors. I welcome all kinds of lists with those colors. Especially builds with Null Rod but I would also like to see other peoples approach to a vial list. Could be inspiring.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Ive really enjoyed following this thread.   The concern I have with B W and G is the unstable manabase. 

Im almost tempted to switch to Black and Green.  The question then becomes how do I replace effects like Aven Mindcensor, Pridemage, STP and TEEG.

I think Duress and Thoughtseize can fill the Mindcensor slot.  Edict replaces STP. Pernicous Deed as a 3-of will help.  TEEG is irreplaceable - so how can I mitigate what he brings to a GW deck....Hyppie - when all else fails - random discard!


4x Wasteland/Strip Mine
3x Emerald/Jet/Black Lotus
4x Dark Ritual
4x Windswept Heath
2x Forest
7x Swamp
4x Bayou

4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Pernicious Deed - kills zombie tokens dead
4x 'Goyf
4x Yixlid Jailer
2x Withered Wretch
4x Dark Confidant
3x Diabolic Edict
4x Null Rod
4x Duress

SB

2x Tormord's Crypt - they'll side in enchantment hate thinking Leylines.
2x Relic of Progenitus
4x Krosan Grip
3x Choke
3x Smother or Jitte
1x Diabolic Edict

[nineisnoone]

I agree, the vial is less good without 1 drops. I am struggling with that myself. But it does enable a quick chalice@1 without hampering anything except vial. Were vial is generally is bad the chalice@1 is generally good.

I disagree on Vexing's importance.  The spell that you really want to prevent them from countering is the 2nd disruptive permanent imo.  You always need to play something before him to disrupt your opponent.  In the gap that that disruption creates is where you want to play Vexing.   When you are playing underpowered decks, you are at negative time.  You need early plays that create time.  You can't afford to invest your time in the future, until you've created something to invest with.

Yea, this is also true for vial. Investing mana and tempo in a permanent that will give a temporary weak moment sounds dangerous. But if you can close the window quickly before the storm hits and follow up with strong counter play the use of such cards is justified.

The list I posted is a reference and changes daily, don't judge it too hard. It is not the list I am promoting but the colors. I welcome all kinds of lists with those colors. Especially builds with Null Rod but I would also like to see other peoples approach to a vial list. Could be inspiring.

Yeah.  But I just don't think the threat density is there.  I think the list is, roughly, a decent list.  But I think it's a huge mistake to not include Duress/Thoughtseize in some form.  When you are talking about "closing the window quickly" you are talking about Duress.  None of those other cards will do that or if they do do it as quick or as efficiently as those cards.  They are, in my opinion, mandatory.

And I'll be posting a list... sometime... a RGW Vial list, spinning off the Shusher discussion and a re-revisit on Sui-Black post my acceptance of Chalice of the Void... not sure when I'll hammer them out... my professor apparently thinks I'm supposed to be writing some sort of research paper...

[Stormanimagus]

Hey all. Here's a list that I posted to Guli in a PM. I had a lot more explanation in that message, but I'll try to explain my reasoning behind this new update. It IS a Vial list, but I think it has the potential to smooth its way through the first 3 turns of the game in order to establish a nice Vial control:

Vial Bears

Land (19):
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
4 Aether Vial

Artifact Creatures (8):
4 Tidehollow Sculler -- Walking Thoughtseize seems pretty awesome. Especially when you can do it on your opponent's turn with Vial.
4 Ethersworn Canonist -- This guy is amazing with Vial. Imagine the look on your opponent's face when they cast dark ritual expecting to use BBB to duress you and then go off and you say, in response to your ritual I'll vial in Canonist. You burn for 3.

Legendary Creatures (3):
3 Gaddock Teeg -- Another amazing guy with Vial. Let the combo player combo out and then time it so that you play this guy in response to a ritual. Also good to pre-empt dread return.

Creatures (14):
4 Qasali Pridemage -- Not as amazing with Vial, but a great beater with a good ability and the ability to help you remove bridges against Ichorid.
4 Dark Confidant -- a nice card drawing engine for a deck that needs to stock up on critters.
3 Aven Mindcensor -- Wish I could run 4. Amazing card that also sidesteps Chalice @2.
3 Tarmogoyf -- Your Finisher. 'Nuff Said.

Instants (4):
4 Hide // Seek -- This card is key after you resolve Turn 1 Vial and are waiting til turn 3 for 2 counters on it. This can be better than Duress in the right matchups as you can Seek out Time Vault or Inky and stop your opponent's game plan right then and there. Has a variety of uses and can be randomly good against Shops as well.

Sorceries (4):
4 Thoughtseize -- I want to run some Duress as well, but I can't seem to fit them in. This gives you 8 solid 1-drops for the deck. It is key to have a decent amount of good 1-drops so you can interact on turn 1.

SB
4 Thorn Of Amethyst -- Storm combo and other randomness like Remora Blue
4 Yixlid Jailer -- Ichorid
3 Umezawa’s Jitte -- Mirror or Selkie-Slam
4 Diabolic Edict -- Inky.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Nice list!  How critical is the red mana?  Would you consider forfeiting the Hide part of Hide and Seek for another basic Plains and  2 Swamps (mox ruby) to help stabilize than mana base (or up the Bayou to 4)?  I really like your creature base - theyre all bombs.  Maybe drop Hide and Seek all together and add 3 Duress and the fourth Aven?   I like this deck its just the mana base...

[Guli]

  @ Storm

Vial becomes stronger the less your deck relies on it. This means that if and when vial gets countered, destroyed the deck should still be able to perform. You force them to do something about vial though because if it does get on line... , so your luring out their counters or making them invest time or at least make them worry and guess.

Your list looks amazing against decks that don't use mana denial aka wasteland/null rod. In your PM you noted that I should not worry too much about he mana base. But my experience tells me that you should.

Sculler is tempting I agree. I also agree that adding black could be taken a step further and use the duress effect. But I fear for the white then. The white will become splash instead of black.

Hide and seek is very very interesting. The compromising of the mana base is slightly compensated, if you can cast it . But the extract effect can also be game ending.

Red is an interesting color for vial lists. Mogg Fanatic and Shaman are solid 1 drops. Also makes the job easier to solve the fetchland issues because red/green like each other. But that is an entirely different archetype and there is a thread for it, TMWA.

Green for Shusher
Black for Confidant
White for Aven

When I write these 'slogans' they have a meaning, they define the deck.

About Shusher, the card is extremely strong. Control really doesn't run all that much of removal to deal with bears. But I agree, Vial and Shusher need more support in form of disruption whether these are creature or spells (i prefer creatures).
Dark Confidant is draw. Don't look too much behind it. At some point you want it to make some card advantage. Or turn 1 is also nice.
Aven is not only a Tinker answer, it hits an important line of strategy of control, deck manipulation. Cutting them off from their precious deck automatically narrows their options because of so many restricted cards in their deck.

@nineisnoone

Maybe the colors GRW are more suited to abuse chalice/vex/vial. Because black apparently doesn't like to get splashed and wants to play a more dominant role. Duress and Chalice is not optimal. I don't like running chalice just to set at zero.


NOTE:
The mana base CAN be turned into a RED base dropping green out. Shusher is also red. I just thought about this, strangely. RBW in that perspective is maybe the better approach. The idea is THE SAME. Replacing green for red makes you lose Tarm, teeg and qasali options. Maybe just a tiny little splash of green to keep qasali is not such a bad call. ESG can be replaced with SSG. I find it strange how easy it is to replace green with red. Hide/Seek is a viable alternative to Qasali btw.

I can change the colors in the name of the topic if this is wished by you guys.

Thanks for the input Stormanimagus, it truly inspired me.

[Guli]

RBW Aggro Control

4x Null Rod
4x Chalice of the void
4x Vexing Shusher
4x Dark Confidant
4x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
4x Diabolic Edict
4x Hide/Seek
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Grim Lavamancer

4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl

1x Mountain
1x Swamp
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Badlands
2x Plateau
1x Scrubland

SB=
3x REB
3x Jailer
3x Crypt
3x Children of Korlis
3x Seal of cleansing

This looks like a strong Null Rod list to me. Note that my anti-aggro cards can both be used to nail my own bears to remove bridges vs ichorid. Other than that I rely heavily on the SB vs dredge.

[nineisnoone]

Nice list!  How critical is the red mana?  Would you consider forfeiting the Hide part of Hide and Seek for another basic Plains and  2 Swamps (mox ruby) to help stabilize than mana base (or up the Bayou to 4)?  I really like your creature base - theyre all bombs.  Maybe drop Hide and Seek all together and add 3 Duress and the fourth Aven?   I like this deck its just the mana base...

I've splashed red as a 4th color in decks to enable Hide.  It's easily worth it.  I would definitely cut the Mox Ruby though.  The second red mana source is okay.  I would prefer to narrow the other card choices a bit to lean more on only 1 or 2 colors.  Storms list kinda splashes around on all three making the choice of where you want to splash the red a bit more tricky. 

I do think though the Plateu is the wrong call because you need RW on different mana souces to enable Hide.  But not sure if that's not something he already took into consideration.

Maybe the colors GRW are more suited to abuse chalice/vex/vial. Because black apparently doesn't like to get splashed and wants to play a more dominant role. Duress and Chalice is not optimal. I don't like running chalice just to set at zero.

Well, I see in your new list you changed your mind.   

In a lot of ways Chalice is never an optimal card.  In fact, now that I've started running it more, I pretty much never play it on the draw.  A card you only play 50% of the time in match-ups where you want to play it isn't really optimal. 

But it's just a raw power card that non-powered strategies don't typically get to use.  If I get Chalice @ 0 turn 1 on the play, I don't especially care whether or not my other Chalices are dead or not.

But if you are really concerned with it, I would just go down to 3x Chalice of the Void.  You get fewer double Chalice hands, but still have a decent shot at getting it in your opening grip.

[Guli]

Chalice and duress WITH Vexing does not concern me at all. My post was based on the color problem. With a red mana base a lot issues are solved. REB is also a strong card in the current meta.

However I would love to have a red 'Goyf

[Stormanimagus]

Hey guys. I just edited my list and dropped Plateau + Mox Ruby (as had been suggested) and altered the mana-base a bit.

I really think people are over-reacting to the unstable manabase. So many of the threats in this deck are 2 CMC or less (3 Mindcensors are the only 3 CMC guys I have) and Aether Vial on the board allow you to live the dream and sit on 1 mana the WHOLE game if need be. I'm not saying you should be able to win on 1 mana, but, against Shops, if they don't apply enough pressure to you, you can simply drop bear after bear and eventually win.

I just think people are seeing more mana-denial than exists in the meta today. My Selkie-Slam deck is one of the few pure mana-denial strategies out there right now and I'm sure that it's not taking up a large portion of the field. This manabase, as it stands now, should be able to hold up against the field I think.

[nineisnoone]

Chalice and duress WITH Vexing does not concern me at all. My post was based on the color problem. With a red mana base a lot issues are solved. REB is also a strong card in the current meta.

With 7 Duress and 4 Chalice it is still bound to show up frequently without Vexing.  But hey, I didn't have a problem with it without Vexing, so it's not like I'm complaining.

What does Lavamancer gives you btw?  I don't see what it offers that would turn you from Dark Confidant.

Hey guys. I just edited my list and dropped Plateau + Mox Ruby (as had been suggested) and altered the mana-base a bit.

I really think people are over-reacting to the unstable manabase. So many of the threats in this deck are 2 CMC or less (3 Mindcensors are the only 3 CMC guys I have) and Aether Vial on the board allow you to live the dream and sit on 1 mana the WHOLE game if need be. I'm not saying you should be able to win on 1 mana, but, against Shops, if they don't apply enough pressure to you, you can simply drop bear after bear and eventually win.

I just think people are seeing more mana-denial than exists in the meta today. My Selkie-Slam deck is one of the few pure mana-denial strategies out there right now and I'm sure that it's not taking up a large portion of the field. This manabase, as it stands now, should be able to hold up against the field I think.

Yeah.  Often times I'm not even sure I want to main basic lands.  I've often considered if running basics as sideboard cards against wasteland decks is a better option.  My comments were more to getting the right colors on the board.

[Guli]

Lavamancer is pre-board board control vs confidants, welders, opposing lavamancer, shamans, bears, selkie, ... also makes tarm/grunt smaller with all those stuff in the grave. He beats for 2 for 1 mana untill your grave is empty. Just keep it full and active with lots of duress/hide-seeks/fetchlands/edicts...

EDIT: Dark Confidant is not replaced by Lavamancer at all! I just forgot to list the Confidants. Sorry

Edict might be a strong answer against tinker but you still need to get rid of specific creatures. Lavamancer also enables you to have at least some fighting chances against ichorid.

I am also enjoying the extract effect of hide/seek. I played mostly combo untill now and it is strong. You can tell a lot by looking at their deck. Basically if you know the meta you know what he is holding. I wonder how the Hide part would work out against shop.

[heiner]

HI Guli
we played 2 games yesterday on MWS (sorry I had to go to pick up my wife+daughter) and to be honest I wasn#t impressed by the dec.

I think the best thing aggro can do vs. drain is to attack the mana base. As soon as control starts building up a mana base it plays so many draw that it just gets to much ahead. Then it just have to find a solution for your disruptive guys. The best thing IMHO is to stop the control dec to get into its game by attacking the mana base.

Null Rod + Chalice + 5 waste/strip is a MUST. I would also play 2 needles they are good against fetches and great vs. stax and ichorid.

Vexing shusher is not good because he can only protect bad spells. Who cares that you bring into play an uncounterable confidant while I am already drawing 3 cards per turn? All the spells you protect with shusher trade 1for1 with the opponents and you have no game breaking spells that really win you the game if they resolve.

Its not enough vs. control to stop their counters as they just switch into beatdown mode and start drawing cards and presenting threads aggrisvely.

[Guli]

HI Guli
we played 2 games yesterday on MWS (sorry I had to go to pick up my wife+daughter) and to be honest I wasn#t impressed by the dec.

I think the best thing aggro can do vs. drain is to attack the mana base. As soon as control starts building up a mana base it plays so many draw that it just gets to much ahead. Then it just have to find a solution for your disruptive guys. The best thing IMHO is to stop the control dec to get into its game by attacking the mana base.

Null Rod + Chalice + 5 waste/strip is a MUST. I would also play 2 needles they are good against fetches and great vs. stax and ichorid.

Vexing shusher is not good because he can only protect bad spells. Who cares that you bring into play an uncounterable confidant while I am already drawing 3 cards per turn? All the spells you protect with shusher trade 1for1 with the opponents and you have no game breaking spells that really win you the game if they resolve.

Its not enough vs. control to stop their counters as they just switch into beatdown mode and start drawing cards and presenting threads aggrisvely.

RBW Aggro Control

4x Null Rod
4x Chalice of the void
4x Vexing Shusher
4x Dark Confidant
4x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
4x Diabolic Edict
4x Hide/Seek
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Grim Lavamancer

4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl

1x Mountain
1x Swamp
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Badlands
2x Plateau
1x Scrubland

SB=
3x REB
3x Jailer
3x Crypt
3x Children of Korlis
3x Seal of cleansing

Was this the list you played? I doubt it, it does way more than just stop their counters.

[smasher]

I have been modifying a RWB list since June 2008. I have fine tuned the deck to smash blue decks. I would even say that it wins around 80% of the time versus blue decks. I have been posting the deck in the TMWA thread so feel free to browse that to get some more info but here is my current deck list.

Flooded strand
Windswept heath
4x Bloodstained mire
Swamp
Mountain
Plains
3x Scrubland
Plateau
Badlands
3x Wasteland
Strip mine
Mox Red/black/white
Black lotus

4x Null Rod
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Red Elemental blast
3x Hide/Seek
2x Diabolic Edict
Demonic tutor
Vampiric tutor

4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Dark confidant
3x Ethersworn canonist
3x Jotun grunt
2x Gorilla shaman

Sideboard should be built to defeat whatever non blue decks are played in your metagame.
3x Engineered explosives
2x Darkblast
4x Extirpate
2x Goblin welder
2x Viashino Heretic
Ethersworn canonist
Yixlid Jailer