Ad Nauseam Tendrils: Post Variants Here!

[Stormanimagus]

Hey everyone. I know there is already a thread somewhere way back about this deck, but I think it needs some new attention. I think that speedy decks that have a delicate balance of disruption are often overlooked as being too inconsistent, but they may be just what the doctor ordered when Control decks are running rampant. I'm going to propose a couple lists and I'd like your thoughts on them.

Ad Nauseam Tendrils (version 1):

Land (12):
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (11):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

Instants (20):
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Chain Of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Sorceries (16):
4 Tendrils Of Agony
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Timetwister/Ponder
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Imperial Seal

Enchantments (1):
1 Necropotence

SB
1 Tinker
1 Sundering Titan
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Extirpate
3 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Tormod's Crypt

Ad Nauseam Tendrils (Version 2.0)

Land (11):
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (11):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

Creatures (4):
4 Dark Confidant

Instants (19):
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Chain Of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Sorceries (14):
3 Tendrils Of Agony
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

Enchantments (1):
1 Necropotence

SB
1 Tinker
1 Sundering Titan
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Extirpate
3 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Tormod's Crypt

Ad Nauseam Tendrils (Version 3.0)

Land (12):
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (11):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

Instants (20):
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Chain Of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Sorceries (16):
4 Tendrils Of Agony
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Imperial Seal

Enchantments (1):
1 Necropotence

SB
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Extirpate
3 Hurkyl's Recall

Each list has a slightly different approach and runs a slightly different MD or SB plan or both. They are all the same basic shell, however. It think the SB option for Black in general are the best that Vintage magic has to offer (cards like Extirpate or Jailer for Ichorid are huge and are enough of a speed bump to win that matchup) and that 8 Duress effects is a good way of beating Mana Drain Strategies as well.

I plan on testing these lists when I have the time, but I'd like some thoughts on them first.

Peace-

Storm

[Chill79]

Shouldn't xantid swarm be used in there to have turn to go off?
I like best version 2 and would make these changes to it:
-1 Chain of Vapor
-3 Thoughtsize
-1 Underground Sea
-1 Chrome Mox

+4 Xantid Swarm
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Mox Emerald

[Purple Hat]

I think 4 thoughtsieze is wrong.  I'm pretty sure the correct number is 0.  Pact of negation is better here because it doesn't cost you life and doesn't ping you when it's revealed and you're just going to use it to protect yourself when going off anyway.  If ad nauseam resolves on your turn you're not goign to have another upkeep most likely.  Life is a binding variable in this deck so you need to carefully consider any card with a life total effect.  Thoughtsieze will cost you more games through life loss in the long run I think than it will win.

I also think 4 tendrils of agony is wrong and should be 3, 3 is enough and tendrils is too painful to draw off ad nauseam.  this also solves your ponder/timetwister question since you can now play both (whether you'd want to is a seperate question.  I think another land would be better).  Rather than using sideboard space I'd find room for 2 more basics main.  Tolarian academy doesn't really do anything useful for this deck because you never need multiple blue, and on the off chance you do you can always imprint a chrome mox blue and then bounce it later to reset to black after ad nauseam resolves.

If you're splashing green for sideboard options I have difficulty saying no to tarmogoyf, especially with confidants main.  If you're not Chains of Mephistopheles is probably required vs remora decks.  You're also probably going to want some Slaughter pacts for the fish matchup.  I don't think you need 8 cards against ichorid because you are much faster than they are in most cases, even post board.  You should be able to get by in the 5-6 range.

I go back and forth on the issue of 3/1 vs. 4/0 chrome mox/mox diamond split.  I usually use my land drop the turn I cast ad nauseam so having the diamond is nice since it's an outlet for extra lands.  They're both not great in your opener, but both let you turn extra cards into extra mana, so I'm not sure which is better.

[negativecreep]

I think 4 thoughtsieze is wrong.  I'm pretty sure the correct number is 0.  Pact of negation is better here because it doesn't cost you life and doesn't ping you when it's revealed and you're just going to use it to protect yourself when going off anyway.  If ad nauseam resolves on your turn you're not goign to have another upkeep most likely.  Life is a binding variable in this deck so you need to carefully consider any card with a life total effect.  Thoughtsieze will cost you more games through life loss in the long run I think than it will win.

I wouldn't drop thoughtseize altogether. It is very important to know where your opponent is turn1, I rather have 8/60 chance of drawing that turn 1 "duress" effect than 4/60. This lets me know what they are playing and if I should worry about going all in or playing slowly to stabalize before I cast ad naus.

I have been playing with 4 duress and 3 or 4 thoughtseize and the life loss has never caused me much downside. Even if I drop to 13 or 12 life I can still almost pull off a lethal tendrils or at least a mini tendrils to get me ready for the next hit. You have to remember you dont ALWAYS have to hit for 20 with a tendrils, hitting for 10+ can put you at such an advantage your next one will be very easy.

[Tin_Mox5831]

As someone with some experience with the deck, four Tendrils is best. I've tried two, three, and four personally, and I've always had my best results with four Tendrils. The mini Tendrils plan is very effective in aggro/aggro-control matches and buys a ton of time without requiring a "sick" hand. I really like Chain Of Vapor as well, and have been known to go as high as the full four on those as well, particularly if I think there are several Tarmogoyf decks in the field. The best card in your deck however, is Demonic Consultation. It's so undeniably explosive once you've learned to decipher just what you need in any situation. I've won a bunch of games by casting Demonic Consultation, and not always for Tendrils/Will/etc. Just being able to get a Chain Of Vapor, Duress, etc can break the game open.

I also disagree to some extent with the opinion that Pact Of Negation outclasses Thoughtseize. While it's important to preserve your life total, (Since life = cards) it's important to remember that not every hand is a goldfish that just gets there. In the games where you're forced to interact with average hands, Thoughtseize is the more powerful effect. Thoughtseize has also proven itself in my tournament experience, particularly in matchups like BUG Fish. The disruption that the Fish deck employs combined with a legitimate clock are difficult to overcome if their best creatures hit the table. Thoughtseize and Chain Of Vapor are absolutely vital in that type of match. I do agree that four copies is definitely not optimal, however. I drift between two and three based on what I expect from the field.

I definitely do agree with the suggestion to sideboard Tarmogoyf, however. I've played them for some time, and they're fantastic in this shell. I think I might have even cast Demonic Consultation for Tarmogoyf once!

Anyway, just my opinions.
-Dave

[dangerlinto]

I wouldn't drop thoughtseize altogether. It is very important to know where your opponent is turn1, I rather have 8/60 chance of drawing that turn 1 "duress" effect than 4/60. This lets me know what they are playing and if I should worry about going all in or playing slowly to stabalize before I cast ad naus.

I have been playing with 4 duress and 3 or 4 thoughtseize and the life loss has never caused me much downside. Even if I drop to 13 or 12 life I can still almost pull off a lethal tendrils or at least a mini tendrils to get me ready for the next hit. You have to remember you dont ALWAYS have to hit for 20 with a tendrils, hitting for 10+ can put you at such an advantage your next one will be very easy.

I agree.  You can usually take the 2 life hit and it's worth knowing if you'll be able to resolve AD Nauseam by getting that peek in the oppoent's hand.

I really, really like a single Intuition.  Finding 3 Ad Nauseam to make sure you'll bump into no more than one more is a fine use of a three mana tutor.  Think of it like Grim Tutor - except it's an instant and it save you life rather than costing you 3.

[zeus-online]

Have anyone considered running bargain? It's more powerfull then ad nauseam and fills the same role....I'm thinking it would be played like the 5th ad nauseam or instead of the 4th. I've not tested this much, but it seems better then ad nauseam (although to be fair, i've won just about every game where nauseam has resolved)

/Zeus

[Stormanimagus]

Have anyone considered running bargain? It's more powerfull then ad nauseam and fills the same role....I'm thinking it would be played like the 5th ad nauseam or instead of the 4th. I've not tested this much, but it seems better then ad nauseam (although to be fair, i've won just about every game where nauseam has resolved)

/Zeus

This is an interesting point, but I think Bargain is wrong for this deck. There is a delicate balance of "bombs" that any deck can run and the upside of running "Draw X cards for X life" number 6 in this deck is not as good as the downside that you have a good chance of hitting it when you are drawing off Ad Nauseam.

I like everyone's suggestions so far and will be Tinkering with the decklist as I test it more.

I do think Pact Of Negation is a Red Herring and makes this deck in to a Goldfish deck that it simply cannot be in the current environment. Mystic Remora is a major reason that this deck can't run Pact Of Negation. Your Pact will not do much of anything for you against a resolved Remora. Thoughtseize can at least keep the standstill long enough for you to find Chain for the Remora.

I do like Xantid Swarm in the SB and agree that Academy should probably be cut, but how should the manabase look between MD and SB in that case? How many green sources MD and how many SB? (Academy is not useless in this deck as you'll often at least get to tap it for UU and often UUU and that can get you to 5 mana more quickly so you can cast Ad Nauseam in the first place.

I'm also curious to know what people think of Tinker/Robot plan from the SB. What would they come in for? Is Inkwell better than Sundering Titan for this deck?

1 MD Intuition might also be interesting to test with but I really don't see how I can fit it when I'm also running Confidants and keep the shell of the deck intact. Is dropping Confidant entirely an option?

The thing is guys, Confidant makes this deck play out a lot more like Stephens Grow deck that he played at Stratford on day 1 and Tarmogoyf from the SB really REALLY does. This deck can't try to do too many things well because otherwise it will do nothing well.

This is why I like Xantid Swarm. It supports the strategy of resolving Ad Nauseam and it is a house against Remora decks (one of this deck's weakest matchups if not THE weakest). I think Chains Of Mephistopholes could also be warranted from the SB but that is something I'll have to consider with regards to space. Confidant is a good choice but it is about as far as I'd go towards making this deck a "short burst" type of deck vs. a true "all-in combo" deck. The problem with short bursts against Drain decks featuring Vault/Key is that sometimes the "win small" approach will backfire when you give them the critical Time Walk they need to assemble the combo. Combo has gone from being a "win the turn before I die" type of deck to a "OMG I don't know if I have the gas to go off this turn so I'll do a mini-win and win later/ I'll wait a turn. Shit, one turn too late." Combo has no center or linearity to it any more and is beginning to die off and I think it is due to 5 factors:

1) No Brainstorm or Ponder
2) Faster Control Decks (Vault/Key)
3) Remora is first turn play and is better than its red counterpart: Pyrostatic Pillar
4) Combo is difficult to play so players play slow-play cards that are more easy to use like Confidant or Tarmogoyf to supplement (in actuality dilute) the gameplan.
5) Combo is difficult to play so players overcompensate by trying to make the deck "Goldfish" and thus ruin its ability to interact at different stages of the game. Combo should not = Turn 1 people.

[negativecreep]

Have anyone considered running bargain? It's more powerfull then ad nauseam and fills the same role....I'm thinking it would be played like the 5th ad nauseam or instead of the 4th. I've not tested this much, but it seems better then ad nauseam (although to be fair, i've won just about every game where nauseam has resolved)

/Zeus

This is an interesting point, but I think Bargain is wrong for this deck. There is a delicate balance of "bombs" that any deck can run and the upside of running "Draw X cards for X life" number 6 in this deck is not as good as the downside that you have a good chance of hitting it when you are drawing off Ad Nauseam.

I like everyone's suggestions so far and will be Tinkering with the decklist as I test it more.

I do think Pact Of Negation is a Red Herring and makes this deck in to a Goldfish deck that it simply cannot be in the current environment. Mystic Remora is a major reason that this deck can't run Pact Of Negation. Your Pact will not do much of anything for you against a resolved Remora. Thoughtseize can at least keep the standstill long enough for you to find Chain for the Remora.

I do like Xantid Swarm in the SB and agree that Academy should probably be cut, but how should the manabase look between MD and SB in that case? How many green sources MD and how many SB? (Academy is not useless in this deck as you'll often at least get to tap it for UU and often UUU and that can get you to 5 mana more quickly so you can cast Ad Nauseam in the first place.

I'm also curious to know what people think of Tinker/Robot plan from the SB. What would they come in for? Is Inkwell better than Sundering Titan for this deck?

1 MD Intuition might also be interesting to test with but I really don't see how I can fit it when I'm also running Confidants and keep the shell of the deck intact. Is dropping Confidant entirely an option?

The thing is guys, Confidant makes this deck play out a lot more like Stephens Grow deck that he played at Stratford on day 1 and Tarmogoyf from the SB really REALLY does. This deck can't try to do too many things well because otherwise it will do nothing well.

This is why I like Xantid Swarm. It supports the strategy of resolving Ad Nauseam and it is a house against Remora decks (one of this deck's weakest matchups if not THE weakest). I think Chains Of Mephistopholes could also be warranted from the SB but that is something I'll have to consider with regards to space. Confidant is a good choice but it is about as far as I'd go towards making this deck a "short burst" type of deck vs. a true "all-in combo" deck. The problem with short bursts against Drain decks featuring Vault/Key is that sometimes the "win small" approach will backfire when you give them the critical Time Walk they need to assemble the combo. Combo has gone from being a "win the turn before I die" type of deck to a "OMG I don't know if I have the gas to go off this turn so I'll do a mini-win and win later/ I'll wait a turn. Shit, one turn too late." Combo has no center or linearity to it any more and is beginning to die off and I think it is due to 5 factors:

1) No Brainstorm or Ponder
2) Faster Control Decks (Vault/Key)
3) Remora is first turn play and is better than its red counterpart: Pyrostatic Pillar
4) Combo is difficult to play so players play slow-play cards that are more easy to use like Confidant or Tarmogoyf to supplement (in actuality dilute) the gameplan.
5) Combo is difficult to play so players overcompensate by trying to make the deck "Goldfish" and thus ruin its ability to interact at different stages of the game. Combo should not = Turn 1 people.

I agree with what your saying. I personally do not like Confidants main deck, they have their advantages but I mean your not there to grab off Bob. Your main concern is to run out and bust an ad naus through whatever your opponent may be playing as soon as possible. Bob will give you card advantage but I do not think he is right MD. SB he can be a bomb when people don't expect you to have it.

I was actually thinking about throwing in Remora MD into this deck. I am not sure what I would take out for it but it might be worth a try, even though it sounds crazy . I mean in theory it might work because it will slow anyone your playing down, you can usually get enough lands into play to keep it up for at least 2 or 3 turns. This could just buy you enough time to setup for an amazing ad naus. What do you guys think?

[ErkBek]

Why are you running 4 Chrome Mox, the card is bad. Ad Nauseam's problem is it is inconsistent. It's inconsistent b/c of Chrome Mox.

[Purple Hat]

3 goyfs in the sideboard is way better than tinker+robot even though it takes up an extra slot.  3 goyfs have a far lower total CMC than tinker and a robot (11+) this means you can present both fronts post board.  going for the quick kill if the opportunity presents itself while still relying on your backup plan.  Casting ad nauseam and revealing inkwell leviathan takes quite a bit of the wind out of your sails.

I think you have to run the chrome moxes, at least 3.  You need a way to consistently produce black mana post ad nauseam and you need a way to filter resources between cards in hand and mana.

[Stormanimagus]

3 goyfs in the sideboard is way better than tinker+robot even though it takes up an extra slot.  3 goyfs have a far lower total CMC than tinker and a robot (11+) this means you can present both fronts post board.  going for the quick kill if the opportunity presents itself while still relying on your backup plan.  Casting ad nauseam and revealing inkwell leviathan takes quite a bit of the wind out of your sails.

I think you have to run the chrome moxes, at least 3.  You need a way to consistently produce black mana post ad nauseam and you need a way to filter resources between cards in hand and mana.

Agreed on the Chrome Mox thing. Anyone who says to cut Chrome Mox from this deck obviously doesn't understand how the deck works. You need it as a free black source that can also be later Chained in order to achieve a critical mass on storm.

[Tin_Mox5831]

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest ineptitude, because Eric has proven to be very good at building and piloting storm decks over the recent years. I will say, however, that Chrome Mox is more powerful in the Ad Nauseam shell than many other storm decks due to it's redundant nature. The ability to afford your deck an amazing card like Chrome Mox adds an extra bit of upside to card slots that might otherwise be somewhat sketchy. (i.e. Chain Of Vapor #4 or Cabal Ritual #4) It's a nice win-win situation; When you need Card X to win, you'll be glad you're playing a full set. When you don't need Card X, you'll be glad you have Chrome Mox.

Although, in lists with a Tarmogoyf/Xantid Swarm sideboard, I would suggest subbing out a Chrome Mox for Mox Emerald. I could make a case for any number of Chrome Moxen except zero. In most cases, I've found two or three to play well.

[negativecreep]

Chrome mox pretty much is one of the main cards that makes this deck work.

Sometimes even in my opening hand I have used it to pull off a turn 1 ad naus or an duress or brainstorm. It is not that bad when you need the mana and when ad naus flips a chrome mox I am extatic because I know I have mana to work with.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

I think what Erik is trying to say is that you don't want a full compliment of C.Mox because multiples of it in the opening hand is garbage.
Plus its one of the shittiest topdecks one could get.
I agree that 2-4 is the right number for reasons already mentioned in this thread, but anyone who wants to cut C.Mox altogether should better be thinking of a different shell altogether.

I'm also not a fan of running Confidants main, but in this meta (a Drain meta that spawns decks like Tez and Remora) it could be a good call.
If you're running 'em main, then having Tarmogoyfs on the side would be worthwhile.

I completely agree with Stormanimagus' sentiments with Xantid as well.
However, Drain players have learned to adopt to that strategy by swapping some Drains for discard (off the side) on games 2 and 3 (at least my local meta has adopted already).
Which makes the whole "Tarms + Confidant" strategy even stronger if not of the surprise factor alone.

What I would like to bring on the table though is Slaughter Pact, especially in metagames that have reared toward a Drain vs Fish environment.
Slaughter Pact is very strong against Fish, especially in pushing an early Ad Nauseam.

Additionally, if you have ran ANT in enough tournaments, one realization that you can get about this archetype is that it misses cantrips/fixers heavily (as other combo decks are), especially with the amount of topdeck tutors it has.
Which is why I've always been a fan of Repeal.
Repeal has been very flexible for me.
I'm using the maindeck Chain of Vapor - Repeal - H.Recall trio and won't be changing that config any time soon.

In lieu of the above premise, has anyone tested a singleton SDT, especially in builds with maindeck Confidants?
I'm thinking it could be a good cantrip since most of the times we're producing lots of black mana anyway, making blue cantrips less appealing.

Lastly, I'm dubious about Mystic Remora.
I just can't see it improving the game against control more significantly than how Xantid does.
Not to mention the costly upkeep.
Thing is, we're supposed to bring on the pain early, especially against control.
Using Remora could have the effect of "buying the control deck its most needed turns against combo", since you'll be tapping precious resources every turn to make the enchantment effective.
I'm not ready to discount it completely yet though, since many spells in this deck might look trash on paper but perform splendidly in practice.

Oh and I've tested Bargain as well, and to put it simply, it sucks.
You will want it to be an Ad Nauseam or a Brainstorm/Cantrip in far greater circumstances than you will want it to be itself.
Necro and Twister (and to some extent Confidants) are enough alternate routes to victory already.

[Dr_Tongue]

I'm using the Chain of Vapor - Repeal - H.Recall trio main and won't be changing that config any time soon.

Using the above premise, has anyone tested a singleton SDT, especially with maindeck Confidants?
I'm thinking it could be a good cantrip since most of the times we're producing lots of black mana anyway, making blue cantrips less appealing.

I actually use a lone Sensei's Top in my build as well. I like that it can nab cards you stack with the topdeck tutors (Mystical, Vampiric, Imperial) to use "right now". The library manipulation is nice too in topdeck mode or with fetchlands.

I currently use 2/1 on the Chrome Mox/ Mox Diamond. Neither are stellar in the early game unless you're resolving an Ad Nauseam usually. In theory you just need to draw one black source to combine with Ritual effects etc. off a succesful Ad Nauseam. I also only use 2 Cabal Rits and run the full set of Moxen to compliment the early Ad. Ponder also is in my list.

A SB card that I really run a singleton copy of and like to use in a matchup with few win conditions (like Tezz) is Bitter Ordeal. Combined with my 6 fetch and Lotus Petal/ B. Lotus it often has at least 1 copy to add to the stack if not 2. Then again I've always had an irrational love of some "bad" cards.

[ErkBek]

I'm using the Chain of Vapor - Repeal - H.Recall trio main and won't be changing that config any time soon.

Using the above premise, has anyone tested a singleton SDT, especially with maindeck Confidants?
I'm thinking it could be a good cantrip since most of the times we're producing lots of black mana anyway, making blue cantrips less appealing.

I actually use a lone Sensei's Top in my build as well. I like that it can nab cards you stack with the topdeck tutors (Mystical, Vampiric, Imperial) to use "right now". The library manipulation is nice too in topdeck mode or with fetchlands.

I currently use 2/1 on the Chrome Mox/ Mox Diamond. Neither are stellar in the early game unless you're resolving an Ad Nauseam usually. In theory you just need to draw one black source to combine with Ritual effects etc. off a succesful Ad Nauseam. I also only use 2 Cabal Rits and run the full set of Moxen to compliment the early Ad. Ponder also is in my list.

A SB card that I really run a singleton copy of and like to use in a matchup with few win conditions (like Tezz) is Bitter Ordeal. Combined with my 6 fetch and Lotus Petal/ B. Lotus it often has at least 1 copy to add to the stack if not 2. Then again I've always had an irrational love of some "bad" cards.

1-2 Chrome/Diamonds is perfect. It ups your black start-ups to a high enough threshold that you'll consistantly hit one of AN. Sensei's Top is amazing in here too. I've always played at least one in the deck.

I know you're not running Tinker-Jar because it bumps up the mana curve, but it's soooo good. I'd highly recommend trying it.

[negativecreep]

I'm using the Chain of Vapor - Repeal - H.Recall trio main and won't be changing that config any time soon.

Using the above premise, has anyone tested a singleton SDT, especially with maindeck Confidants?
I'm thinking it could be a good cantrip since most of the times we're producing lots of black mana anyway, making blue cantrips less appealing.

I actually use a lone Sensei's Top in my build as well. I like that it can nab cards you stack with the topdeck tutors (Mystical, Vampiric, Imperial) to use "right now". The library manipulation is nice too in topdeck mode or with fetchlands.

I currently use 2/1 on the Chrome Mox/ Mox Diamond. Neither are stellar in the early game unless you're resolving an Ad Nauseam usually. In theory you just need to draw one black source to combine with Ritual effects etc. off a succesful Ad Nauseam. I also only use 2 Cabal Rits and run the full set of Moxen to compliment the early Ad. Ponder also is in my list.

A SB card that I really run a singleton copy of and like to use in a matchup with few win conditions (like Tezz) is Bitter Ordeal. Combined with my 6 fetch and Lotus Petal/ B. Lotus it often has at least 1 copy to add to the stack if not 2. Then again I've always had an irrational love of some "bad" cards.

This is interesting as my only problem with this deck is that sometimes you run into lots of clusters of mana when your topdecking. I run into a lot of situations where I am doing "draw-go" without any action. Maybe adding sensei's top could combat this.

I was also thinking about using Lim Duls Vault which could technically filter a good part of your deck and get optimal results when you shoot off an ad naus. - Also great for imprinting on chrome mox

[Stormanimagus]

I think what Erik is saying is you don't want a full compliment of C.Mox because multiples of it in the opening hand is garbage.
Although I agree that 2-4 is the right number for reasons already mentioned in this thread, and that anyone who wants to cut C.Mox altogether in the deck better be thinking of a different shell altogether.

I'm also not a fan of running Confidants main, but in this meta (a "drain" meta that spawns decks like Tez and Remora) it could be a good call.
If you're running 'em main, then having Tarmogoyfs on the side would be worthwhile.

I completely agree with Stormanimagus' sentiments with Xantid as well.
The problem is, Drain players have learned to adopt to that strategy by swapping some drains for discard off the side on games 2 and 3 (at least my local meta has adopted already).
Which makes the Tarms + Confidant strategy even stronger if not of the surprise factor alone.

What I would like to bring on the table though is Slaughter Pact, especially in metagames that have reared toward a Drain vs Fish environment.
Slaughter Pact is very strong against Fish, especially in pushing an early Ad Nauseam.

If you have ran ANT in enough tournaments, one realization that you can get about this archetype is that it misses cantrips/fixers heavily (as other combo decks are), especially with the amount of topdeck tutors it has.
Which is why I've always been a fan of Repeal.
Repeal has been very flexible for me.
I'm using the Chain of Vapor - Repeal - H.Recall trio main and won't be changing that config any time soon.

Using the above premise, has anyone tested a singleton SDT, especially with maindeck Confidants?
I'm thinking it could be a good cantrip since most of the times we're producing lots of black mana anyway, making blue cantrips less appealing.

I'm dubious about Mystic Remora.
I just can't see it affecting the game against control more significantly than how Xantid does.
Not to mention the costy upkeep.
Thing is, we're supposed to bring on the pain early, especially against control.
Using Remora could have the effect of "buying the control deck its most needed turns against combo", since you'll be tapping precious resources every turn to make the enchantment effective.
I'm not ready to discount it completely yet though, as many things in this deck might look trash on paper but would perform splendidly in practice.

I've tested Bargain as well, and to put it simply, it sucks.
You will want it to be an Ad Nauseam or a Brainstorm/Cantrip even in far greater times than you will want it to be itself.

I was not trying to insult Eric and I'm sorry it came off that way. I respect his deck designs and have been a long time proponent of his Confidant Intuition-Tendrils decks. I do think Chrome Mox is pretty essential to this deck and I think it should probably be run as a 4 of because it is not bad in multiples. Most cards in this deck are not bad in multiples as you'll be able to compensate for the initial Card Disadvantage by being able to draw 10 + cards from Ad Nauseam. Chrome mox is a key card to hit off Ad Nauseam before you die from life damage as it'll often let you begin to chain together Rituals if you've tapped out for AN. For this reason I think 4 is the safer choice.

Regarding Repeal. I don't think this is the deck for repeal. Since they will most likely never be setting Chalice @2 (knowing that you also run Chain Of Vapor to Bounce it). I really think that Hurkyl's Recall is superior to Repeal for this deck as it really hampers Stax while also dealing with Chalice @2 and the Tinker-> Inkwell Plan.

I'm curious to know how people feel about a singleton Intuition? Good? Bad? Questionable?

[meadbert]

I'm curious to know how people feel about a singleton Intuition? Good? Bad? Questionable?

In my opinion the proper number of Intuitions is either 3 of 4.  They find Ad Nauseam, they provide a way to win with Ad Nauseam in case of Aggro and they function as a Tutor for Tendrils in certain cases.

[zeus-online]

So what should a intuition-ad-nauseam deck look like? It would also allow for some intuiton+will wins i suppose. There's also the question of how much 4 intuitions would raise the overall mana costs in the deck.

[Stormanimagus]

I'm curious to know how people feel about a singleton Intuition? Good? Bad? Questionable?

In my opinion the proper number of Intuitions is either 3 of 4.  They find Ad Nauseam, they provide a way to win with Ad Nauseam in case of Aggro and they function as a Tutor for Tendrils in certain cases.

I think the only number of Intuitions to consider is 1 (perhaps 2). This deck has every good black/blue tutor available to it and runs its main engine as a 4-of so finding AN shouldn't be a huge problem. I feel like you'll only every be tutoring for Intuition when you are being slugged by Tarmogoyf and you are at like 12 life but you want to win next turn in order to avoid further damage/disruption. The intuition will then allow you to ditch 2 copies of AN so the one that you resolve will draw you more cards (less chance of flipping an AN). Otherwise Intuition is just a worse Demonic Tutor because the mana cost is 1 more.

4x Intuition is a different deck and I don't think that deck runs AN. However, it does sound like an interesting innovation on the strategy and there might be a 3x Ad Nauseam List out there that also runs 3-4 Intuition. The deck would have to be a slightly different shell to accommodate the extra space needed for the Intuitions, but I suppose it could work.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

Now that I come to think of it, maybe another shell of ANT could include Drains and Confidants AND Intuitions. If memory serves, I believe it was meadbert who suggested Drains in ANT although I haven't really come around into building or seeing a shell for it.

@Stormanimagus:
I have tried blue Cantrips (Serum Visions, Sleight, etc.) and black draws (Draw4's, Night's Whisper even Skeletal Scrying) to fill the "draw/cantrip/fixing" void that BS and Ponder left and none seems to come close to the flexibility that Repeal has been giving me. (It's a cantrip AND a utility)
It largely has to do with my meta though, since Fish is common as well as Chalice@0 plays (be it from Oath, Ichorid, RG or Sui variants).
It's pretty common to face a Mage or a Chalice@0 here on turns 1-2.
I'm very sure to replace Repeal with Hurkyl's as soon as:
1. Workshop decks increase in number (there are only 1-3 workshops around, 1 of 'em coming from a team mate)
2. Inkwell catches up (DSC is still heavily favored around here for reasons unknown to me. I would run Inky over DSC in a heartbeat if only this deck will allow it)

@negativecreep:
I really think Demonic, Vamp, Sea, Consult and Mystical are enough, although every once in a while, I do try Vault as well.
I haven't been very impressed with it but at the same time, I haven't been disappointed either.
Can you provide some more detailed analysis of your testing results with Vault?

@ErkBek
I actually have tried Tinker+Jar before and although it is indeed explosive when it works, there are several downsides that never really got the better side of me:
1. I don't run Pact of Negation. Forcing Tinker via discard and then cracking Jar kinda dilutes my initial wave of discard and I'm left praying that my opponent didn't draw any counters off the Jar and that I drew some more discard.
2.The more draw7's I add, the more this deck feels like an inferior TPS deck with multiple Ad Nauseam's. Although I agree that perhaps Jar is the best draw7 out there since it doesn't really let your opponent keep the 7. (I'm not very impressed with Twister other than as a reset button)
3. 5 to the dome hurts bad. Tinker+Jar on an AN run is like a kick to the groin. But hey, AN+Tendrils on an AN run happens a lot anyway so wth.

I can try re-squeezing PoN's back in and see how it works with Tinker+Jar.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

If Tinker->dude is being considered in ANT builds why not make the dude Platinum Angel? Only 7 life if flipped (way less than other dudes), gives you an option against Ichorid if they put you in the red (most lists don't run a maindeck way of removing the angel anymore), makes Ad Nauseum read: draw your whole deck, can actually be reasonably hard cast (only 2 more mana than Ad Naus), makes Pact of Negation an actual free counter, and allows you to use Pact to protect Tinker. Seems to me like Platinum Angel is the ultimate Tinker plan A for Ad Nauseum and then you only need to justify 1 deck slot for Jar.

[pierce]

has anyone in this thread even played this deck? I'm seriously baffled at some of the opinions. Intuition is garbage in this deck, being both too slow and too costly off a resolved ad nas.
You definately want 3-4 chrome mox. Often you have little, if any, mana floating after casting the ad nas. Chrome moxen let you combo post ad nas.
Thoughtseize is actively bad in this deck. You can't afford to get rid of you life. Run pact of negation--it has more synergy with ad nas anyway.
Tinker is poop md. Sb, it's fine. You only want it for certain matchups like fish builds where you need an extra way to win if they plop down a teeg or med mage.
Bargain is propably the worst card to add. Play the deck with bargain and you'll see why.

In addition, I really hate all of the initial decks this thread started with. I don't like timetwister or necro in the deck. Anything that costs three, I'm against.

For any explainations or justifications for these opinions, please look to the tournament forums for a report I wrote.

[meadbert]

Necropotence is clearly better than Ad Nauseam#4 in this deck since it draws more cards for less life with a lower mana cost.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Now it's clear to see who hasn't played the deck.

Necropotence and Timetwister aren't even remotely debatable. They're auto-includes in this shell. Necro is the single most efficient bomb in Storm, period. If you would rather play Russian Roulette for five mana than get a whole new grip for three mana, maybe KoboldClamp is a more suitable choice. Also, Timetwister is a unique bomb that allows you to salvage poor gamestates as well as reset the game against Dredge. It's efficient and attacks from a different angle, making it absolutely vital.

[policehq]

I would much rather have Necropotence and Timetwister than Voltaic Key and Time Vault.

[Suicideking]

I played this deck last weekend, and I always wanted timetwister.  Its just so good, and when you are down getting a ad nauseum off can be a lot harder then twister.  Necro is good because if you play it turn one you almost always turn 2 your opponent.  I wasnt very impressed by Vault/Key but that probably because I was never able to get both pieces at the same time.  I played Pierces list and its is decent but it does need some adjustments, I just havent had the time to figure them out.

[ErkBek]

has anyone in this thread even played this deck? I'm seriously baffled at some of the opinions. Intuition is garbage in this deck, being both too slow and too costly off a resolved ad nas.
You definately want 3-4 chrome mox. Often you have little, if any, mana floating after casting the ad nas. Chrome moxen let you combo post ad nas.
Thoughtseize is actively bad in this deck. You can't afford to get rid of you life. Run pact of negation--it has more synergy with ad nas anyway.
Tinker is poop md. Sb, it's fine. You only want it for certain matchups like fish builds where you need an extra way to win if they plop down a teeg or med mage.
Bargain is propably the worst card to add. Play the deck with bargain and you'll see why.

In addition, I really hate all of the initial decks this thread started with. I don't like timetwister or necro in the deck. Anything that costs three, I'm against.

For any explainations or justifications for these opinions, please look to the tournament forums for a report I wrote.

Hi Pierce. I have played this deck. Some questions on your list.

4 duress
1 thoughtseize
2 pact of negation
2 chain of vapor
1 hurklys recall
1 merchant scroll
1 ancestral recall

4 dark ritual
2 cabal ritual
1 mox sapphire
1 mox jet
4 chrome mox
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 black lotus

4 ad naseum
3 tendrils
demonic tutor
vampiric tutor
mystical tutor
yawgmoth's will
necropotence (terrible)
time vault
voltaic key
demonic consultation
sensei's diving top
ponder
brainstorm

island
2 swamp
3 underground sea
1 bayou
4 delta
1 bloodstained mire

sb
2 xantid swarm
2 yixlid jailer
2 relic of progenitius
1 tinker
1 platinum angel
2 hymn to tourach
3 pithing needle
island
swamp

I'm thinking you don't like Necro because you're playing 2 Pacts instead of 4 Thoughtseize. Yeah, Thoughtseize is 2 life, big deal, but its always money. Do you really think Pact is better than Thoughtseize? I'm in agreement with Stormanimagus, however I believe you could potentially play Pact in addition to 8 duress, just not in place of Duress. Also, doesn't Pact + Vault-Key = Fail? The only cards you want to use Pact to protect is AN and Yawg Will. Thoughtseize protects everything and gives you info. I really don't think Vault-Key belongs in here. Do you?

Merchant Scroll should not be played with your manabase. It's okay in TPS and 2C Grim Long b/c they play basic island(s), but Islands don't belong in maindecks of ANT (along with Tolarian).

I know everyone plays Consult, I did too for a while. I rarely like it in my openers, only off AN. If I've resolved AN at a healthy life total I win at least 90% of the time (even with only playing 2 Chrome Mox). It sounds like Consult didn't work out for you, yeah you were unlucky, but why take that risk? The risk-reward on the card just isn't worth it imo.

No love for Imperial Seal? I'm mixed on the card myself, buy I'd think with Vault-Key you'd definitely want to play it. I play it over Consult even w/o Vault-Key.

Sup with the Hymns on your board?