[Deck] BUW Fish

[Mattus]

Black blue and white fish.

The list:
Creatures: (14)
4 Dark Confident
4 Meddling Mage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Aven Mindcensor

Hate: (18)
4 Duress
4 Null Rod
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Daze

Utility and Such (7)
R Brainstorm
R Demonic Tutor
R Time Walk
R Yagamoth's Will
1 Echoing Truth
R Ancestral Recall
R Vampiric Tutor

Mana Base (21)
3 Mox (w/u/b)
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
R Strip Mine

Why this:
The reason I like this build of fish is it has a strong match up vs the top decks in the format Ichord, Tez, and TPS are good game one. With the right board get much better game 2 and 3. Oath and Other aggro decks is where this decks struggles. Namely the red decks with burn and green aggro with larger creatures, read:Gof, are tough.
I have yet to do any testing against Stax, Due to low to zero shop decks in my meta.
Things to fix:
The number of creatures in the deck is low for an aggro deck I want to find room to fit more beaters. Doing so will help with the aggro match ups and allow the deck to put a faster clock out more consistently.
The power of the creatures is low over all. With the largest power being only (2) the deck gives away a few too many games by not killing fast enough when the hate is out.

Thanks for your time and recommendations.

[Guli]

I don't see how your match up is good vs the top decks. I ll just ask 1 match up though. How is this deck beating ichorid game 1?

[Clint_NZ]

Although I really like the addition of black for Bob and Duress...

I believe Stormanimagus's Selkie Strike deck is superior than this list.
Has basically the same disruption minus Duress but is a lot stronger overall.

Also you state that you have a good match-up game 1 against Ichorid, but all I can see
is Echoing Truth/Wasteland/Strip Mine? How does this win game one when you give the ichorid
player soo much time?

EDIT: Guli bet me to the same question

[Mattus]

The game one match up of Ichorid boils down to landing the right hate. Early Stifle for bazaar and wasteland puts them way behind. Playing a timely Aven Mindcensor into an early attack will hit the bridges when the censor dies. This game one match up can be improved with Jotun Grunt which I am still testing to replace the Meddling Mages.

Game one match up vs Tez is also about the hate cards. An early null rod with 5 Strip effects can hinder there mana base. Landing a Canonist or a censor will shut down there ability to counter back and tutor up answers.

[Clint_NZ]

The game one match up of Ichorid boils down to landing the right hate. Early Stifle for bazaar and wasteland puts them way behind. Playing a timely Aven Mindcensor into an early attack will hit the bridges when the censor dies. This game one match up can be improved with Jotun Grunt which I am still testing to replace the Meddling Mages.

I read this whole paragraph as: The game one match up of Ichorid boils down to winning the coin flip.

All they need is one activation from Bazaar and it is all over for you. So to be able to Stifle Bazaar you would have had to win the coin flip.
As for blocking with Aven, sending in Ichorids to lose Bridges seems like a stupid idea so building a force that will overwhelm you seems
like a stronger play.

And Jotun is not strong enough to stop Dredge.

Just my 2c

I must admit, with black your sideboard options against dredge become a lot better.

[FadeToBlack]

Why no Tidehollow Sculler?

[Mattus]

I tested the Sculler and found that it not needed in most of the match ups that you would want it. I decided to go with censors over the sculler, however since I did want to add more creatures to the deck I might consider dropping the duress for the 2/2 but that seems like a stretch. The other thing about the Sculler I disliked was he does nothing to help your bad match ups.

Thanks for all the input, I read it all and try to use it to help my deck.

[jeffthefob]

Couple comments.

The game one match up of Ichorid boils down to landing the right hate. Early Stifle for bazaar and wasteland puts them way behind. Playing a timely Aven Mindcensor into an early attack will hit the bridges when the censor dies. This game one match up can be improved with Jotun Grunt which I am still testing to replace the Meddling Mages.

There are a couple interesting things from this.  First, Fish got 2 game plans against Ichorid game 1.  First plan, Ichorids mulls and doesn't draw Bazaar.  Second plan, Stifle+Wasteland and you need something to follow up with.  Which 14 creatures might not be enough.  You don't even have Cursecatcher in your list, which is better than Jotun Grunts against Ichorid.  our game 1 against Ichorid is not good at all; if you have been winning g1 and even g2's, hey, good job.

Second, not having Jotun Grunts is a mistake if you aren't running G for Goyfs.  You just don't have enough pressure against your opponents.  You can cripple them most likely, but can't finish them.

Third, your list doesn't have any StPs.  The one lone echoing truth isn't going to stop opposing creatures running over you.  But it seems like you just completely gave up on it and run Canonists and Mindcensors main.  You have said that this list will probably lose to creature based decks, but what I am saying is you will also lose Fish Mirrors as well.

Fourth, Yawgmoth's Will in Fish is really underwhelming.  The best I can see is you Yawg. Will an Ancestral, but that cost 4 mana.  You run 4x Null Rods, you aren't really going to use Lotus/Yawg. Will and etc.  In fact, you have Null Rod to stop opponents from doing that.

Your match up against Workshop with 3cc is bad.  21 mana source is pretty low already.  Running 21 + 5 Waste effects hurts.  Not to mention this deck will probably have Null Rod backfire at you more often than other Fish lists.

[brianpk80]

This looks like a fairly solid collection of the genre's staples, but I'm not sure what would distinguish it in a meaningful way from any other garden variety Fish variant.  There are a few things you can do to slow down Ichorid, indeed, but of course the match analysis would depend heavily on your sideboard.  Ethersworn Canonist is strong against storm combo, but I'm not sure there's enough of it around to justify three maindeck slots, especially when the biggest threats are now Time Vault and Inkwell Leviathan. 

I would recommend a more balanced split on the fetchlands, instead of 4/1.  It usually makes no difference, but in theory, having a more balanced ratio alleviates the situation where there is a Pithing Needle on "Polluted Delta."

Also, I'm not intending to sound like a stickler for spelling (we all make mistakes) but for the future, it may help to know that Dark Confidant does not contain an 'e' and the most broken black spell in the format is Yawgmoth's Will, not Yagamoth's. 

Good luck tweaking the list,

-B

[Guli]

The cards in the list are all good cards. No doubt about that. If on the draw plus a good opening hand it can clearly outplay a lot of decks out there. But a match up like ichorid needs special attention and maybe we should not criticize the deck too much in reference to the dredge match. Mostly we deal with icho with SB anyway.

There are not a lot of creatures in here. If a low amount of bears is used this means that you won't have a lot of bears on the table. I guess 2-3 is the max you will reach on regular bases. The disruption you will cause is temporary. Though it is good disruption their is a long way to get them at 0 life and I don't see any HARD locks in here, but good disruption and some of them stick (mage, aven, canonist). But like I said, you won't get them in play every time. And it is hard to keep up with blue these days. They can quickly refill hand count and search answers or win conditions. Again in theory you pack answers but when I look at my experience I know things don't work out like its on paper. It is not like the cards you need will roll down in the order you want them. If that was the case Fish would win every game because Fish got answers to everything. The problem is that fish can't play the cards they need at the moment they need it, at least not all the time.

For that reason Aven is not enough on its own to stop Tinker. Duress and the counter package helps but usually those are used before Tinker hits to stop other spells. To give an example of my own design. I use 4 different routes to address Tinker. Duress/thoughtseize is the direct way but situational. Aven M is the preventive approach but can also be a counter to Tinker in response just like Hide and Seek can be. Also as a last resort I use Diabolic Edict. That is a total of 16-20 cards that could serve as an answer to Tinker but the answer to Tinker is not the primary role they play. The problem with your list is you have absolutely no way to deal things that slip through. Whether this is Tinker or a heavy aggro deck or ichorid which always comes for you no matter what you do.

There is a reason why people ran 4x Swords to Plowshares. It stopped Tinker, dealt with aggro and stopped welders alikes. The print of Inkwell forced fish to look for alternative ways dealing with Tinker aka Diabolic Edict. Edict is good against aggro but not always optimal. I run additional aggro control for that.

I am not sure though that 4x Diabolic Edict will solve your problem in this deck. But I think you should run them anyway giving you outs. Remember edict removes bridges as well.

If you can slip in Cursecacher and Edicts I think you will improve this list.

// Lands
    3  Underground Sea
    3  Tundra
    1  Scrubland
    1  Island
    4  Polluted Delta
    1  Flooded Strand
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl

// Creatures
    3  Cursecatcher
    4  Dark Confidant
    3  Aven Mindcensor
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    3 Meddling Mage

// Spells

    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall

    4  Force of Will
    4 Duress

    3 Diabolic Edict
    3  Stifle
    4  Null Rod
    3  Daze

[hauntedechos]

  Hey everyone.

This deck clearly has roots in U/W/b Fish from Slaver/Gifts mana ichorid era.  At this time Mr. Feinstien and myself did a lot of talking about the need for B in a U/W build.

clearly Bobs are a great engine and giving yourself access to Duress effects are almost a must for the first turn.  One thing that I never forgot Dave telling me is that 15 creatures was the absolute lowest he would go in a Fish deck.  Understanding that some current Fish builds go lower than that, one must ensure that the suit of creatures facilitates that in some way ie: clock or disruption.  As has been stated, you have to pay strict attention to the potential turns your disruption can buy you vs. the reliable clock you can beat face therein.

You have 5 waste effects; 3 waste and strip is fine, keeping in mind you also abuse stifle.  While we are mentioning Stifle, 3 may be too many - lets try 2 and clean up some room for more creatures.  Try converting that additional Wasteland into a plains.
Convert a moxen into a lotus petal:  it may sound silly, but the time when you need a moxen is turn 1 and that moxen usualy only gets used once or twice, in that case, it should be rainbow in nature before null rod shuts it off.
Demonic and vampiric:  Vamp needs to be Mystical.  Keep the U count up and keep an eye on your life total.
Yawgmoths needs to be Ponder.
Get the 4th canonist in.  Since you lack the brute force of a Grunt, Canonist and mage are going to be the back bone of the disruption for you.  Aven is big too, but works with Stifle and the mana denial plan.  Mage and Canonist are soft lock components.

All in all, this list seems best suited for Tezz and Storm.  Oath and ichorid are going to beat your face in...make sure your SB addresses this fact.  This list turns off artifacts and punishes light and stretched mana bases (though TPS might be able to race you game one because of it's mana base.  When facing TPS game one...shut off the Tinker into  big dude route).  You are going to have to learn how to manage your resources VERY well if you are going to get anywhere with this list.  G offers bigger beat sticks and you are going to have to pack SB cards that deal with that fact as well.  B offers some great potential to that end; as the same cards that you would use against leviathan/dsc et al are the same ones that you might wanna try and use against Goyfs.  Perhalps instead of edicts, you might want to entertain Smother as a direct selector of spot removal.  The life loss hurts, but it does allow you to select the creature instead of your opponent.

good luck with everything.

Haunted.