Fundamental change of the fish archetype

[Guli]

These last couple of weeks the tension can be easily spotted for those who regularly check the topics about how vault/key is the dominating win condition alongside tinker. This topic is not to fuel another discussion about the vault/key combo but to innovate on the existing dogma's when it comes to fish builds. Fish is beat down they say but I do not agree entirely on that statement and I will try to explain why I don't agree on that role of beatdown that is pushed on to fish decks.

First of all not all creatures are designed to beat. The fact that they have a body is a bonus that can be used in the combat phase by attacking or blocking. Just like cards like Trinisphere and Sphere of resistance have their effect on the board, some creatures also have this so called 'lock' element or just call it 'control' element whatever suits you. It basically comes down to having permanents instead of spells and trying to control the game like that.

Second, even a creature without an effect still has an effect that we name 'clock' and if the body is big enough it can be translated into the phrase: "You have less turns".

Right now there is this illusion, strong statement i know, that fish HAS to play the disruption role with Null Rod. This means you HAVE to dedicate a massive amount of slots in order to deny mana. Fine, it is a strong strategy to follow but I also want to note that it is usually the non fish players that make this point. And I do agree that Null Rod is the way to go if you are looking to play repressive. However there are alternatives. I have been posting a lot things about Aether Vial. I played the card for quite some time now and while I think the card is not fully explored I think their is a stronger alternative right now if the Rod is not used.

I want to introduce the idea of using Time vault instead of Null Rod in fish. I am sure people are using it out there. But haven't seen any serious result with this. Try to understand that this is not about cards like meddling mage, gaddock teeg, Aven Mindcensor or Tarmogoyf. Those kinds of fish builds are designed to disrupt and beat with a relatively fast clock. What I am saying here is to seriously go for the combo/control role and I do think this is possible.

Why use creatures to counter, tutor, draw and dig instead of the strong engines that is so popular right now? Well, those engines mostly pack remora. And this creates a serious advantage for the 'fish' player. Secondly there is still that element of clock to factor in like it was a classic fish, which it isn't. The bad thing about using creatures is that they are not instants and can be hated with mass removal, or not? In this case not. But this is rather unique. The cards that I am talking about should be obvious for most readers,Voidmage Prodigy.

While this is not a thread that promotes a list, I will use an example list that can be tuned, tweaked by anyone who was inspired by my idea.

Voidmage Prodigy:
A counter that can not be addressed by mana drain or force of will. It recycles all your other dudes making them walking counter spells. Surely this is the card that will protect your vault/key combo or stop their win condition. You don't need to counter most of the time. Just the things that really matter. Counter.

Dark Confidant:
It is a wizard, a draw engine, but it can also backfire with vault/key. Luckily we have Voidmage Prodigy to get rid of him when we find the combo. It is just the best card drawing wizard out there. Draw.

Trinket Mage:
He does 3 things. He is a tutor, he is food for prodigy and he beats. Most important aspect about trinket is that he can simply get your Key taking a lot of responsibility out of the hand of your demonic, vamp, imperial, ... Tutor.

Sage of Epityr:
He digs 4 cards deep and again he can be a potential walking counter. Digger.

You don't need more. The rest is power.

There is also 1 more thing about this wizard concept. The example list packs Tinker and guess what the target is? Sen Triplets of course. This is not a storm deck, neither it is a beat down. This is about controlling the game. Sen Triplets fits the theme. Also since a lot of people use tutors and key/vault chances are you will be able to steal it from their hand or steal a tutor to find it yourself etc.

I will now present an example list just to illustrate.

4x Force of Will
4x Voidmage Prodigy
4x Duress

I think these are obvious and strong to serve as your counter package. You can basically say that in this package the Voidmage Prodigy is your mana drain. Sure he is much worse that mana drain if we compare them without any context. But this is an attempt to create a fish with the vault combo, I am not going to use mana drains myself. Also you can get Voidmage Prodigy in play without walking into a drain. This can be relevant in the current meta.

1x Ancestral Recall
4x Dark Confidant

1x Brainstorm
4x Sage of Epityr
1x Sensei D-Top

1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will

1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key

1x Tinker
1x Sen Triplets

5x Demonic Tutor/Vampiric Tutor/Imperial Seal/Enlightened Tutor/Mystical Tutor
3x Trinket Mage

2x Island
3x Polluted delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
2x Black lotus/Lotus Petal
3x Sapphire/Pearl/Jet
2x Sol Ring/Crypt

Will the creatures slow you down in the combo game plan? Why is this better than the drain/tezz decks? Questions that beling in this thread. I am not presenting a solution, just an idea to think about as a community. Is it possible to launch Fish/Vault into the meta? Can't fish play with this win condition if the creature base is adjusted accordingly?

One thing is for sure, this is still fish but at the same time it packs a lot broken plays and has the potential to quickly gather the combo or go for deadly Sen Triplets. Either way it is adding diversity to the meta and it is fish!

[AmbivalentDuck]

You're running less acceleration and disruption than standard Tez builds.  Your draw engine even has a decent chance of killing you after getting Vault-Key up. I fail to see why this is even interesting?

Also, the lack of Null Rod and inclusion of Voidmage facilitates comparison to Brianpk's Oath of Ghouls fish build.  Some combination of full acceleration, Ethersworn Canonist, Voidmage, and Aether Vial might prove compelling.  As it stands, Yawg Will even looks out of place in your build.  It was difficult to fully use even in something like Sullivan Solution and its place here is debatable at best since it looks like little more than getting to replay a fetch and a Duress.

[Guli]

You're running less acceleration and disruption than standard Tez builds.  Your draw engine even has a decent chance of killing you after getting Vault-Key up. I fail to see why this is even interesting?

Also, the lack of Null Rod and inclusion of Voidmage facilitates comparison to Brianpk's Oath of Ghouls fish build.  Some combination of full acceleration, Ethersworn Canonist, Voidmage, and Aether Vial might prove compelling.  As it stands, Yawg Will even looks out of place in your build.  It was difficult to fully use even in something like Sullivan Solution and its place here is debatable at best since it looks like little more than getting to replay a fetch and a Duress.

I am not running anything at all. The list is for illustrative purposes.

The idea is stated. Vault/Key combo in fish instead of Null Rod fish.

And don't tell me creatures won't be able to replace the drains, bounce, draw that tezz is running. Acceleration can always be added. I think this topic is very interesting as it opens up possibilities, new ways to design fish. New concept of denial etc...
Discuss.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

You're running less acceleration and disruption than standard Tez builds.  Your draw engine even has a decent chance of killing you after getting Vault-Key up. I fail to see why this is even interesting?

Also, the lack of Null Rod and inclusion of Voidmage facilitates comparison to Brianpk's Oath of Ghouls fish build.  Some combination of full acceleration, Ethersworn Canonist, Voidmage, and Aether Vial might prove compelling.  As it stands, Yawg Will even looks out of place in your build.  It was difficult to fully use even in something like Sullivan Solution and its place here is debatable at best since it looks like little more than getting to replay a fetch and a Duress.

I am not running anything at all. The list is for illustrative purposes.

The idea is stated. Vault/Key combo in fish instead of Null Rod fish.

And don't tell me creatures won't be able to replace the drains, bounce, draw that tezz is running. Acceleration can always be added. I think this topic is very interesting as it opens up possibilities, new ways to design fish. New concept of denial etc...
Discuss.

I thought about Null Rod Fish and came to the conclusion that for Key/Vault to be viable in Fish you would have to run all 4 black tutors. At that point you would be better off just making a pure Key/Vault combo deck than try to stall with random guys. It would just be a worse Bomberman.

[Guli]

little hint: if you're planning on going to an italian Tournament then I'd definitely test against UR fish, which are heavily played there (so I've heard) and differ a lot from other Fish strategies insofar as they don't run Rod but a lot more Disruption with the Spellstutters. (Meaning they have about 16-17 counters postboard some of which can be played again (Stutters) during the match, so beware).
On the other hand I think the Italian Meta is currently the only one where this Fish variant is actually played, so if you're not planning on going there, then there's probably no need to test against it.

I am using this quote to show that their are people who play without ROD. I created this thread to explore ANY routes that didn't pack ROD. We have been making ROD lists for months now. And with good reason I don't deny that. But I think it is time to think about alternatives just to keep things diverse.

I am really curious why this thread is being ignored. I think some dogmas need to be broken around here. Has it come to the point that any fish idea that doesn't pack 4x Null Rod is automatically thrown in the garbage can? Is that what has become of this forum?

I naturally thought that without Null Rod, some artifact stuff should be included. But maybe that isn't necessary. Though if artifacts are included then instead of vial I would like to see how vault/key would work out. The creatures you drop do get one part of the combo or help dig it.

Again, I don't see why this thread is uninteresting, or can't open up constructive ideas.

Cheers

[Stormanimagus]

little hint: if you're planning on going to an italian Tournament then I'd definitely test against UR fish, which are heavily played there (so I've heard) and differ a lot from other Fish strategies insofar as they don't run Rod but a lot more Disruption with the Spellstutters. (Meaning they have about 16-17 counters postboard some of which can be played again (Stutters) during the match, so beware).
On the other hand I think the Italian Meta is currently the only one where this Fish variant is actually played, so if you're not planning on going there, then there's probably no need to test against it.

I liked Trinket Mage as an idea for a tutor for Key, but the problem is that Key is unrestricted so having Mage to tutor it up is not really necessary. Vault costs 2 so Mage can't get it anyway. If Vault costed 1 Mana then Mage would obviously get the nod over Tezz as a tutor machine, but that is, unfortunately, not true, and as long as no other cards are in print I think the current Tezz shell is the best way of employing Vault/Key as a Win Condition.

I would like to see some other fishy lists, and I have been dying to break Spellstutter Sprite for a while. Perhaps some sort of high-counter-density ninja-esque Fae list? That idea has always intrigued me. I'll get back to you on it when I've started formulating a list.

I do think this sort of discussion is good Guli, but I think many are withholding judgement right now until the June 1 announcements are made. I'd like to see what cards are legal at that time, before I start positing new decklists.

I am using this quote to show that their are people who play without ROD. I created this thread to explore ANY routes that didn't pack ROD. We have been making ROD lists for months now. And with good reason I don't deny that. But I think it is time to think about alternatives just to keep things diverse.

I am really curious why this thread is being ignored. I think some dogmas need to be broken around here. Has it come to the point that any fish idea that doesn't pack 4x Null Rod is automatically thrown in the garbage can? Is that what has become of this forum?

I naturally thought that without Null Rod, some artifact stuff should be included. But maybe that isn't necessary. Though if artifacts are included then instead of vial I would like to see how vault/key would work out. The creatures you drop do get one part of the combo or help dig it.

Again, I don't see why this thread is uninteresting, or can't open up constructive ideas.

Cheers

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

little hint: if you're planning on going to an italian Tournament then I'd definitely test against UR fish, which are heavily played there (so I've heard) and differ a lot from other Fish strategies insofar as they don't run Rod but a lot more Disruption with the Spellstutters. (Meaning they have about 16-17 counters postboard some of which can be played again (Stutters) during the match, so beware).
On the other hand I think the Italian Meta is currently the only one where this Fish variant is actually played, so if you're not planning on going there, then there's probably no need to test against it.

I am using this quote to show that their are people who play without ROD. I created this thread to explore ANY routes that didn't pack ROD. We have been making ROD lists for months now. And with good reason I don't deny that. But I think it is time to think about alternatives just to keep things diverse.

I am really curious why this thread is being ignored. I think some dogmas need to be broken around here. Has it come to the point that any fish idea that doesn't pack 4x Null Rod is automatically thrown in the garbage can? Is that what has become of this forum?

I naturally thought that without Null Rod, some artifact stuff should be included. But maybe that isn't necessary. Though if artifacts are included then instead of vial I would like to see how vault/key would work out. The creatures you drop do get one part of the combo or help dig it.

Again, I don't see why this thread is uninteresting, or can't open up constructive ideas.

Cheers

Simply put if you don't run Null Rod, Tendrils, Bazaar, or Key/Vault you're just going to lose. The new 4 pillars of Vintage I guess.

[policehq]

The best way to abuse the crap out of artifacts and their activated abilities with aggro would be Mishra's Workshop, not Aether Vial.

But I agree, sort of, with the purpose of this thread, if I am interpreting it correctly: Null Rod Fish is not doing its job against Tez, so we need to explore different Fish options.

[nineisnoone]

If you REALLY wanted to do this, I would suggest running Aphetto Alchemist at least.  Maybe you could make some Vintage Wizards deck.  (There is an Elf deck running around after all).

4x Aphetto Alchemist
4x Trinket Mage
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key
4x Force of Will
45x Islands.

Or something.  I dunno.

[Guli]

If you don't know then don't post. Read and try to interpret what I posted.

Null Rod is a strong disruption piece, but it is an artifact which suffers from a lot of bounce/hate. Null Rod doesn't win games on its own, it supports the win. I shared my thoughts about vial a long time ago and I have gained a lot experience on the card, but this thread is not about vials.

I am talking about the best win condition out when we talk about activated artifact abilities in fish. Why am I doing this? Because I believe people are way up to their heads about Null Rod. It is like every fish out there is some kind of suicide black in a way.

Also want to point out that you don't have to use Trinket mage. If you ideas with Workshop/Vault then bring them in. Same goes for Voidmage, it was merely an example creature base to introduce the vault/fish archetype.

Demonic/Vamp/Seal/Enlightened/Mystical/Tinker/Trinket is like 10 tutors to find combo pieces and if you draw into 1 all of those tutors suddenly become potential win conditions. Things like Dimir Infiltrator to find Time Vault for 3 mana (like Trinket gets the key for 3) are interesting.

Tezz is just 1 card in a deck that is fueled by TFK/Drains. Let us start calling it TFK/Vault.

Combo-fish is not an established archetype. But I can see a number of creatures being extremely useful to support such a deck. For example Goblin Welder combined with, say intuition. Again, I am giving examples to explain my point: there is serious potential here that seem to be ignored because of 1 card, Null Rod.

[nineisnoone]

If you don't know then don't post. Read and try to interpret what I posted.

Will the creatures slow you down in the combo game plan? Why is this better than the drain/tezz decks? Questions that beling in this thread. I am not presenting a solution, just an idea to think about as a community. Is it possible to launch Fish/Vault into the meta? Can't fish play with this win condition if the creature base is adjusted accordingly?

It doesn't seem like you know.

People are just posing these same questions to you.  And if you really want some good discussion on this thread (and I'm not trying to be difficult here, just trying to aid the discourse), you need to try and address at least some of these questions.  Being the OP, I feel that you have an obligation to present solutions to questions, rather than just posing more questions. 

I do agree that Null Rod isn't the be all and end all to fish decks.  But creature combo already exists in the form of Elves and Bomberman.  I think both are actually much more viable than it is given credit for.  Vial is very viable, particularly now with Pridemage. 

That said, if you really want Vault-fish, you should look at Alchemist.  Beats for 1 (or 2 if you play it face down).  And it is a walking Voltaic Key. 

[patat]

Actually, nineisnoone had a decent point, which may have been hidden in a slight bit of sarcasm..  With trinket mage, alchemist, and a key, you have effectively  15% of your deck able to be one-half the time vault combo, creating an opening idea for a fish-like vault/key deck.

In all seriousness, a voltaic key that beats is exactly what you were asking for.  Aside from that, changing the fish shell to accommodate a key/vault combo is nothing short of turning your fish deck into Bomberman.  Ultimately, I don't see much of a difference between Bomberman and a key/vault fish.  In fact, in a recent tournament while piloting Bomberman, I found myself playing what was in essence a slower version of fish with mana drain.  Against control I found myself siding in things like canonnist to speed up the clock and slow down their control.  Against fish, boarding in creature control like threads and sower alter your deck to a more controlling, combo set up based deck. 

The thing you're asking for is really tough to accomplish without altering your game plan from aggro to control.  The more setup you have for vault/key, the less creature beats you can put into your deck.  The more control aspects, the less creature beats.  If you're asking for a more oops I win scenario, I don't think there's much better than putting 10 vault/key pieces, 8 of which have other efficient uses, as well as a power/toughness to boot.

Or maybe I've missed a 2/2 creature for 2 that pulls time vault from your deck...

[Guli]

Who cares about creature beats if infinite turns can be accomplished. The creatures have a different goal.

And so do I...

I have absolutely no obligation neither a goal to present solutions. My goal is to stimulate people to think about the fish theme and break the idea of auto including null rod. I stated this in my opening post.

Or maybe I've missed a 2/2 creature for 2 that pulls time vault from your deck...

This shows that you don't read my posts in detail. But you do put me in the position to repeat myself. That is not a big deal though.

Here you go!

Demonic/Vamp/Seal/Enlightened/Mystical/Tinker/Trinket is like 10 tutors to find combo pieces and if you draw into 1 all of those tutors suddenly become potential win conditions. Dimir Infiltrator has the potential to find Time Vault for 3 mana (like Trinket can get the key for 3) are interesting.

I tested alchemist in the past, did not like it. And the reasons are easy to understand. He costs more than key and suffers from summoning sickness. I rather play multiple keys and add additional artifacts that have synergy with key. Still maybe 1 copy might be wise if Dimir Infiltrator is used.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

There is this card called Tezzeret the Seeker that acts as Key+fetches Vault and sure could use chump blockers while he does his thing. Maybe a new version of Bomberman that runs Tezz instead of Salvagers would work. Not like Salvagers aren't already the worst card in the deck anyways may as well cut them for a better combo. Also if you don't want to go that way Trickster Mage is infinitely better than Aphetto Alchemist. It costs 1/2 the mana to cast+can tap your opponent's big scary stuff or even lands to cut them off Drain mana. Discarding a card per turn is irrelevant if you're taking infinite turns or staring down a DSC. This is pretty much the best stuff I can see if you want to make Fish with Key/Vault. I'd be interested in seeing if it puts up better stats than a straight Bomberman deck. However, I don't see it working if you get to the desperation point of running Aphetto Alchemist or Dimir Infiltrator. I suppose I'd be willing to help tweak this deck just out of curiosity. Starting list I'd suggest:

Tezzerman
Creatures:
4xDark Confidant
4xTrinket Mage
4xVoidmage Prodigy
4xTrickster Mage
4xCursecatcher

Planeswalkers:
2xTezzeret the Seeker

Artifacts:
4xChalice of the Void
1xTime Vault
1xVoltaic Key

Instants:
4xForce of Will
1xAncestral Recall
1xBrainstorm
1xVampiric Tutor

Sorceries:
1xTime Walk
1xDemonic Tutor
1xImperial Seal

22 Mana Sources

Then again this isn't Fish this is Bomberman so it may not be what you want.

[Guli]

Interesting thought you throw in here. Tezz is a tutor in essence. He can serve as another win condition. So what is going on here?

No drains, no rituals, no TFK. but still tezz, tutors, tinker, will.

Digging 4 deep in a standard fish deck is not exactly that strong, mostly useful. But When you dig 4 deep in a deck with a lot of bombs then the power level of Sage of Epityr increases.

Is Dark Confidant not strong enough as a draw engine to get the job done when it comes to generating card advantage and seeing more cards. I sure understand that TFK stakes the extra 3 draw phases way faster than confidant.

On the other hand trying to get things done with creatures has some advantages as well. Especially against remora engines. I don't consider the combat phase that relevant because of the goal, getting vault/key asap. But it is still nice to be able to beat while you are aggresively searching for a lethal combo. It puts that extra pressure on the opponent and might even cause play errors because they see creatures they assume it is a standard fish with ninjas, meddling and stuff like that.

Voidmage idea was just an idea. By no means I was suggesting that it was the only way to build a concrete list. I think lists are for later. We are still in the early stages of the archetype I am suggesting.

I see a couple of funny suggestions, and they do make me laugh. Thanks for that. But try to understand that this thread is not about me. Personally I think this has serious potential and maybe this archetype is already out there with welders and robots. Utilizing creatures differently than the classic beatdown/disruption game.

Bomberman could serve as a starting point but as far as I know bomberman uses manadrain. I would like to avoid that, and try to create something with its own characteristics taking into account that similar cards can be used.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Interesting thought you throw in here. Tezz is a tutor in essence. He can serve as another win condition. So what is going on here?

No drains, no rituals, no TFK. but still tezz, tutors, tinker, will.

Digging 4 deep in a standard fish deck is not exactly that strong, mostly useful. But When you dig 4 deep in a deck with a lot of bombs then the power level of Sage of Epityr increases.

Is Dark Confidant not strong enough as a draw engine to get the job done when it comes to generating card advantage and seeing more cards. I sure understand that TFK stakes the extra 3 draw phases way faster than confidant.

On the other hand trying to get things done with creatures has some advantages as well. Especially against remora engines. I don't consider the combat phase that relevant because of the goal, getting vault/key asap. But it is still nice to be able to beat while you are aggresively searching for a lethal combo. It puts that extra pressure on the opponent and might even cause play errors because they see creatures they assume it is a standard fish with ninjas, meddling and stuff like that.

Voidmage idea was just an idea. By no means I was suggesting that it was the only way to build a concrete list. I think lists are for later. We are still in the early stages of the archetype I am suggesting.

I see a couple of funny suggestions, and they do make me laugh. Thanks for that. But try to understand that this thread is not about me. Personally I think this has serious potential and maybe this archetype is already out there with welders and robots. Utilizing creatures differently than the classic beatdown/disruption game.

Bomberman could serve as a starting point but as far as I know bomberman uses manadrain. I would like to avoid that, and try to create something with its own characteristics taking into account that similar cards can be used.

In my experience Bomberman runs creatures not Drains but OK I guess. Also I suggested Voidmage as a counter+means of removing Confidant once you go infinite+the fact that the best creatures are wizards. You asked for Fish and then just started smacking down the best Fish creatures? Why not just run standard Tezz at that point if you want TfK instead of Confidant?

[smasher]

A few months ago a friend of mine was play testing a painter grindstone deck that also contained multiple trinket mages and imperial recruiters. It's been long enough that I don't recall too many of the card choices other than some mentioned. Perhaps it is pointless to throw a time vault combo in a deck like this since either combo gets hated out by null rod. I do remember a lot of busted opening plays like land mana crypt, trinket mage, lotus into trinket mage grabbing more artifact accel and starting out with a decent manabase that was putting him well out of my range of dealing with the manabase.( I was testing shop variants at the time )

I recall imperial recruiters being extra copies of trinket mage and painters servant with the bonus of being 1 more guy to beat with if it came down to the aggro plan. Vassago if you read this maybe you wanna throw one of your decklists up to bring this idea a little closer to being more than me rambling about an old deck I didn't play.

Smasher

[vassago]

I am only posting this because Smasher requested it.  I wouldn't play this right now because null rod is a big pain.  also, when I was playing this deck alot, I actually wanted to be on the beat down plan. I would show them enough parts of the combo and then let them hate it out, especially after side boarding, because the combo pieces would not even be in the deck then.  Meh, hopefully this is helpful, I doubt it though.


1 tolarian academy
3 polluted delta
3 volcanic island
2 flooded strand
2 island
1 underground sea
1 badlands
1 swamp
5 moxen
mana crypt
mana vault
sol ring
black lotus

2 imperial recruiter
4 trinket mage
1 engineered explosives
1 sensei's divining top
4 mana drain
1 echoing truth
1 yawgmoth's will
1 mystical tutor
1 grindstone
ponder
brainstorm
ancestral recall
timewalk
4 force of will
vampiric tutor
1 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
1 tormod's crypt
1 demonic tutor
4 accumulated knowledge
2 intuition
1 painter's servant

sb

1 darksteel colossus
1 platinum angel
1 tinker
3 extirpate
1 rack and ruin
3 leyline of the void
2 wasteland
1 stripmine
2 energy flux

[Guli]

According to the statistics Null Rod is not something you should fear too much, it is drain that is more represented.

Null Rod could stop the combo and some acceleration until you play a bounce spell then it is game over. Also Null Rod is not super effective against creatures. This can be considered as another pro argument to use creatures as a resource to tutor/dig/draw. I already made the argument that against remora using creatures is also an edge.

Creatures are permanents which makes the smokestack less effective as well. If a Tinker/DC plan is included them, casting diabolic edict is less effective.

Imperial recruiter does look interesting. Thanks for posting the list. I can't think of any use for the card on the spot. I am not even sure on Trinket Mage. It is all still so premature.

I think that Dimir Infiltrator and Trinket would do better to get your pieces. Dimir can also get demonic and this can lead to key. Or maybe even Muddle the Mixture instead of Dimir and instead of voidmage. Muddle the Mixture does sound the most versatile way to fill up the slots for additional vault tutoring and having a counter ready to stop things like Tinker or whatever broken spell out there.

I say keep it coming, the thread is warming up.

[nataz]

Oh man, blasts from the past!
History lesson time-

WU Tang Wizards by Becker:
2007
UR Fish 2K7 (aka Happy Wizards)

Mana/Accel 19
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus
3 Volcanic Island
5 Island
5 Fetchlands
3 Aether Vial

Disruption Spells 14
4 FoW
3 MisD
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Snare
1 Echoing Truth

Draw Engine 9
1 Ancestral
1 Walk
3 Brainstorm
4 Gush

Creatures 18
4 Voidmage Prodigy*
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
2 SpellStutter Sprite*
3 Sage of Epityr*
3 Magus of the Moon*

*The 12 wizards

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34694.0

WTF (worse then fish)
Jacob Orlove


4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 AEther Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Black Vise
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

4 Ray of Revelation
1 Tundra
1 Plains
3 Phyrexian Furnace
3 Oxidize
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Umezawa's Jitte

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=23160.0


Sullivan Solution
A Vintage deck, by Tommy Kolowith
1st place at a StarCityGames Power 9 Tournament tournament in Rochester, New York, United States on 2006-06-11
Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dimir Cutpurse

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Darkblast
4 Force Of Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rushing River
1 Shadow Of Doubt
4 Stifle
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Creatures
3 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant

Sorceries
4 Duress
1 Hymn To Tourach
1 Time Walk

Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Swamp

Lands
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Skullclamp
2 Energy Flux
4 Planar Void
1 Darkblast
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Shadow Of Doubt


Meandeck Vial Fish
-can't find a thread on this deck any more, did we lose this in one of the moves?

3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Meddling Mage
4 Rootwater Thief
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Aether Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
4 Island

SB:

3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Kami of Ancient Law
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[LordHomerCat]

What era is that last list from?  The last time I remember Meandeck UW Fish was SCG Rochester in like 06 when it had to fight the beginning of Gifts and Slaver.  Those decks were full of Lions and Hounds and Meddling Mages and True Believers.

[nataz]

It was the meandeck answer to PTW's old UR fish builds. I think it was Hi-val/the method (ashok) (?) who first talked about it, but its been a while. The more I think about it, it came out during the summer. Must have been after a SCG or Gencon. It was a foil to Slaver, so I'm thinking pre-gifts. I'm pretty sure it's pre Jacob's WTF list as well which is 2005. Ahh, the good 'ol days.

Anyways, between this thread and the one in the Full member forum, I think it def needs to be revisited. I have no idea on how competitive it would be, but it seems to answer a lot of questions on grounds that we've already covered.  

[ErkBek]

Null Rod Fish is not doing its job against Tez, so we need to explore different Fish options.

In my experience, BUG fish smashes Tez. I'm not sure it's that Fish can't beat Tez, it's not enough people play fish.

[zeus-online]

Where's the feinstein fish list? I think UWB fish has a decent shot with confidant, mindcensor and canonist....There's been alot of recently printed fishy cards that could really make for a whole array of good, strong fish decks.

There's been a couple of merfolk fish lists in the tournament forum, and good ol' U/R has also seen a bit of play lately...other then that there's BUG fish, selkie fish and UWB fish.

As a Tez player i'd say that the exalted/selkie fish list is probably the worst one of them to face, with selkie being very hard to deal with and winning the game in just a few turns (with just 1 exalted creature in play the selkie draws 2 cards, which is almost impossible to overcome) and qasali pridemage to further complicate the situation (stops the vault/key combo - Leaving tinker as the only out). The reason i state that selkie is hard to deal with is that unlike tarmogoyf or some other beater the selkie often only requires 1 or 2 swings before the fish player is just too much ahead on CA for the Tez player to recover.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Where's the feinstein fish list? I think UWB fish has a decent shot with confidant, mindcensor and canonist....There's been alot of recently printed fishy cards that could really make for a whole array of good, strong fish decks.

There's been a couple of merfolk fish lists in the tournament forum, and good ol' U/R has also seen a bit of play lately...other then that there's BUG fish, selkie fish and UWB fish.

As a Tez player i'd say that the exalted/selkie fish list is probably the worst one of them to face, with selkie being very hard to deal with and winning the game in just a few turns (with just 1 exalted creature in play the selkie draws 2 cards, which is almost impossible to overcome) and qasali pridemage to further complicate the situation (stops the vault/key combo - Leaving tinker as the only out). The reason i state that selkie is hard to deal with is that unlike tarmogoyf or some other beater the selkie often only requires 1 or 2 swings before the fish player is just too much ahead on CA for the Tez player to recover.

Sounds like a good time to maindeck Darkblast and kill 1 creature per turn. 1/2 the creatures in selkie-strike (more if they run Cursecatcher) usually have 1 toughness pre-exalted and Darkblast can even take down the 2-toughness creatures. Also Welders/Confidants/etc. we all know the drill at this point its no new tech. That or just bring back Fire/Ice oldschool tech if you don't want to dredge the blast back every turn. UWB Fish should be a house I'm completely surprised that nobody is really talking about it. I thought for sure the printing of Tidehollow Sculler would have people up in arms. Its probably the best creature since Confidant was printed and alongside a couple of Duress effects and Meddling Mage you should be able to shut down your opponent's whole hand in a few turns. I guess we all turned our heads to all the pretty tools green has been given lately. Then again I stopped playing Fish outside of testing when Vault became legal and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people have this mentality also.

[Troy_Costisick]

I thought for sure the printing of Tidehollow Sculler would have people up in arms. Its probably the best creature since Confidant was printed and alongside a couple of Duress effects and Meddling Mage you should be able to shut down your opponent's whole hand in a few turns.

Whoa, let's slow down a minute. Tarmogoyf and Inkwell Leviathan are way better than Sculler.  Even if you just meant for Fish decks, Goyf is much better.  At the two mana slot, there's no real comparison.  I'm not saying that Sculler doesn't have applications, but he's hardly the best creature since Confidant was printed.

[Lurker101]

What about just using Magus of the Unseen to untap and steal time vaults? Or prevent them from coming into play in the first place? I don't think anyone would drop Vault with a magus and 1U untapped on the table. It's also a wizard so it can be sacced to voidmage if necessary.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I thought for sure the printing of Tidehollow Sculler would have people up in arms. Its probably the best creature since Confidant was printed and alongside a couple of Duress effects and Meddling Mage you should be able to shut down your opponent's whole hand in a few turns.

Whoa, let's slow down a minute. Tarmogoyf and Inkwell Leviathan are way better than Sculler.  Even if you just meant for Fish decks, Goyf is much better.  At the two mana slot, there's no real comparison.  I'm not saying that Sculler doesn't have applications, but he's hardly the best creature since Confidant was printed.

I meant in terms of a utility Fish creature not just random fat, my bad. I guess I was in a bit of a rush and hoping the comparison to Confidant would cover me sorry.

Obviously goyf is stupidly strong.

[zeus-online]

Where's the feinstein fish list? I think UWB fish has a decent shot with confidant, mindcensor and canonist....There's been alot of recently printed fishy cards that could really make for a whole array of good, strong fish decks.

There's been a couple of merfolk fish lists in the tournament forum, and good ol' U/R has also seen a bit of play lately...other then that there's BUG fish, selkie fish and UWB fish.

As a Tez player i'd say that the exalted/selkie fish list is probably the worst one of them to face, with selkie being very hard to deal with and winning the game in just a few turns (with just 1 exalted creature in play the selkie draws 2 cards, which is almost impossible to overcome) and qasali pridemage to further complicate the situation (stops the vault/key combo - Leaving tinker as the only out). The reason i state that selkie is hard to deal with is that unlike tarmogoyf or some other beater the selkie often only requires 1 or 2 swings before the fish player is just too much ahead on CA for the Tez player to recover.

Sounds like a good time to maindeck Darkblast and kill 1 creature per turn. 1/2 the creatures in selkie-strike (more if they run Cursecatcher) usually have 1 toughness pre-exalted and Darkblast can even take down the 2-toughness creatures. Also Welders/Confidants/etc. we all know the drill at this point its no new tech. That or just bring back Fire/Ice oldschool tech if you don't want to dredge the blast back every turn. UWB Fish should be a house I'm completely surprised that nobody is really talking about it. I thought for sure the printing of Tidehollow Sculler would have people up in arms. Its probably the best creature since Confidant was printed and alongside a couple of Duress effects and Meddling Mage you should be able to shut down your opponent's whole hand in a few turns. I guess we all turned our heads to all the pretty tools green has been given lately. Then again I stopped playing Fish outside of testing when Vault became legal and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people have this mentality also.

Well, that'd be awesome against selkie fish...but rather useless against something like a tarmogoyf, i much prefer cards that are effective against all forms of aggro/control rather then cards just to nuke one of them...Can't really fit in massacres vs. UW fish, sowers vs. tarmogoyf, darkblast vs. selkie....if you catch my drift

Pyrolasm is pretty broad though, and it would be quite good against the selkie deck.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Where's the feinstein fish list? I think UWB fish has a decent shot with confidant, mindcensor and canonist....There's been alot of recently printed fishy cards that could really make for a whole array of good, strong fish decks.

There's been a couple of merfolk fish lists in the tournament forum, and good ol' U/R has also seen a bit of play lately...other then that there's BUG fish, selkie fish and UWB fish.

As a Tez player i'd say that the exalted/selkie fish list is probably the worst one of them to face, with selkie being very hard to deal with and winning the game in just a few turns (with just 1 exalted creature in play the selkie draws 2 cards, which is almost impossible to overcome) and qasali pridemage to further complicate the situation (stops the vault/key combo - Leaving tinker as the only out). The reason i state that selkie is hard to deal with is that unlike tarmogoyf or some other beater the selkie often only requires 1 or 2 swings before the fish player is just too much ahead on CA for the Tez player to recover.

Sounds like a good time to maindeck Darkblast and kill 1 creature per turn. 1/2 the creatures in selkie-strike (more if they run Cursecatcher) usually have 1 toughness pre-exalted and Darkblast can even take down the 2-toughness creatures. Also Welders/Confidants/etc. we all know the drill at this point its no new tech. That or just bring back Fire/Ice oldschool tech if you don't want to dredge the blast back every turn. UWB Fish should be a house I'm completely surprised that nobody is really talking about it. I thought for sure the printing of Tidehollow Sculler would have people up in arms. Its probably the best creature since Confidant was printed and alongside a couple of Duress effects and Meddling Mage you should be able to shut down your opponent's whole hand in a few turns. I guess we all turned our heads to all the pretty tools green has been given lately. Then again I stopped playing Fish outside of testing when Vault became legal and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people have this mentality also.

Well, that'd be awesome against selkie fish...but rather useless against something like a tarmogoyf, i much prefer cards that are effective against all forms of aggro/control rather then cards just to nuke one of them...Can't really fit in massacres vs. UW fish, sowers vs. tarmogoyf, darkblast vs. selkie....if you catch my drift

Pyrolasm is pretty broad though, and it would be quite good against the selkie deck.

In my opinion something more flexible like Darkblast is better maindeck as a singleton than any other card mentioned there. (except maybe sowers XD) But yeah you're right, general stuff is the best tool for SBs. Another decent option that seems to be massively overlooked is Echoing Decay. Not only does it answer the most problematic tools around, it also pegs multiples and can answer an Ichorid Zombie hoard/Warrens tokens. Pro new tech ftw?