Necromancer Tribe

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I'm not sure what the rule is on tribes but I hope its the same as cycles so here goes:

Unholy Frenzy  
Tribal Sorcery - Necromancer
Draw a card and lose 3 life.
Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before it this turn.)
In order to study under Shanzar an apprentice necromancer must tear at his flesh until the path is clear.

Presence of Doom
Tribal Enchantment - Necromancer Aura
Enchant creature.
At the begining of your upkeep put a -1/-1 counter on enchanted creature.

Shanzar, Master Necromancer
Planeswalker - Shanzar
+2: Lose 2 life, draw a card.
-3: Gain control of target Zombie or Necromancer.
-13: Return all creatures from all graveyards into play under your control.
4

Shanzar's Will  
Tribal Enchantment - Necromancer
At the begining of your upkeep return all Necromancers from your graveyard to your hand.
At the end of your turn discard your hand.

Necromancer's Touch
Tribal Instant - Necromancer
Target creature gets -1/-1 and can't be regenerated until end of turn.

Grafted Abomination  
Artifact Creature - Zombie
Trample
If at any time you don't control a Necromancer sacrifice Grafted Abomination and lose 5 life.
6/6
Must fear and obey.

Raktuur, Minion of Shanzar  
Legendary Creature - Zombie Dragon Necromancer
Flying, trample, haste.
At the beginning of your upkeep sacrifice a Necromancer and return target creature from a graveyard into play under your control. Raktuur gains +X/+X until end of turn where X is the sacrificed Necromancer's converted mana cost.
7/7
Raktuur animated the dead for amusement, and devoured them for power.

Right of Necromancy
Tribal Instant - Necromancer
As an additional cost to play Right of Necromancy sacrifice a Necromancer.
Return target Necromancer from a graveyard to play under your control.
Sacrifice to Shanzar was the ultimate reward. Death by him was the ultimate punishment.

Necromancer Adept
Creature - Necromancer
  : Return target creature from a graveyard into play under your control.
1/3

Shanzar Fanatic
Creature - Necromancer
Sacrifice Shanzar Fanatic: Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
1/1
"Even the inept can be used to my benefit." -Shanzar, Master Necromancer

Sacrificial Guardian
Creature - Necromancer
Whenever a creature you control is sacrificed put a 2/2 Zombie Creature token in to play under your control.
0/3
Right this way please. (Picture would be of a Necromancer with an evil smile pointing towards a Spawning Pit.)

Apprentice Necromancer and Doomed Necromancer would be reprinted as Necromancers and I think it would be a nice start to this tribe. Questions/comments/suggestions/more tribe members more than welcome.

Current wordings and cards in the tribe:

Unholy Frenzy  
Tribal Sorcery - Necromancer
Draw a card and lose 3 life.
Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before it this turn.)
In order to study under Shanzar an apprentice necromancer must tear at his flesh until the path is clear.

Presence of Doom
Tribal Enchantment - Necromancer Aura
Enchant creature.
At the begining of your upkeep put a -1/-1 counter on enchanted creature.

Shanzar, Master Necromancer
Planeswalker - Shanzar
+X: Sacrifice a creature, add X black mana to your mana pool where X is that creature's converted mana cost.
-2: Put a creature card from any graveyard in to play under your control.
-13: Target player loses 2 life and discards a card for each creature in play under your control. You gain 2 life and draw a card for each creature card in your graveyard.
4

Shanzar's Will  
Tribal Enchantment - Necromancer
At the begining of your upkeep return all Necromancers from your graveyard to your hand.
At the end of your turn discard your hand.

Necromancer's Touch
Tribal Instant - Necromancer
Target creature gets -1/-1 and can't be regenerated until end of turn.

Grafted Abomination  
Artifact Creature - Zombie
Trample
At the beginning of your upkeep if you don't control a Necromancer sacrifice a creature and lose 4 life.
6/6
Must fear and obey.

Raktuur, Minion of Shanzar  
Legendary Creature - Zombie Dragon Necromancer
Flying, trample, haste.
At the beginning of your upkeep sacrifice a Necromancer. Raktuur gains +X/+X until end of turn where X is the sacrificed Necromancer's converted mana cost.
At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep return a creature from a graveyard to play under your control.
7/7
Raktuur animated the dead for amusement, and devoured them for power.

Right of Necromancy
Tribal Instant - Necromancer
As an additional cost to play Right of Necromancy sacrifice a Necromancer.
Return target Necromancer from a graveyard to play under your control.
Sacrifice to Shanzar was the ultimate reward. Death by him was the ultimate punishment.

Necromancer Adept
Creature - Necromancer
  : Return target creature from a graveyard into play under your control.
1/3

Shanzar Fanatic
Creature - Necromancer
Sacrifice Shanzar Fanatic: Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
1/1
"Even the inept can be used to my benefit." -Shanzar, Master Necromancer

Sacrificial Guardian
Creature - Necromancer
Whenever a non-zombie creature you control is sacrificed put a 2/2 Zombie Creature token in to play under your control.
0/3
Right this way please. (Picture would be of a Necromancer with an evil smile pointing towards a Spawning Pit.)

[Harlequin]

Raktuur is not worded in such a way that it nessisarily does what you think it's doing.

"At the beginning of your upkeep sacrifice a Necromancer and return target creature from a graveyard into play under your control. Raktuur gains +X/+X until end of turn where X is the sacrificed Necromancer's converted mana cost."

Ok so its a trigger with a single target.  If you had no legal targets (no creatures a graveyard, or you choose a target then RFG it to make it an illegal target) you could bypass the ... lets call it a drawback ... completely.  However if you don't have it target then it could just sac itself to return itself. 

Perhapse something a little different...

Legendary Creature - Dragon Necromancer
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a non-zombie creature and put a 4/4 Black Zombie Dragon with Flying into play under your control.  If that creature was a necromancer return a creature from an opponent's graveyard to play under your control.
"Much in same way a mother dragon needs to feed before laying her clutch, Raktuur needs the flesh of the living to spawn her unholy brood." - Areth, Dragon Hunter.

With this wording, at some point the creature kills itself, leaving behind at very least a 4/4 vanilla flier and a reanimated creature from your opponent.

Grafted Abomination I think should be to be trigger of some sort.   You could break it up too, something like:
"At the begining of your combat phase, if you do not control a Necromancer sacrifice a creature you control other tha Grafted Abomination and tap Grafted Abomination.
At the begining of your upkeep, if you don't control a Necromancer sacrifice Grafted Abomination and lose 3 life."


Sacrificial Guardian  is way too powerful I think.  It really needs to be "whenever a non-token" or "whenever a non-zombie" otherwise it goes infite with any ability that is "Sac acreature:"   

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Raktuur is not worded in such a way that it nessisarily does what you think it's doing.

"At the beginning of your upkeep sacrifice a Necromancer and return target creature from a graveyard into play under your control. Raktuur gains +X/+X until end of turn where X is the sacrificed Necromancer's converted mana cost."

Ok so its a trigger with a single target.  If you had no legal targets (no creatures a graveyard, or you choose a target then RFG it to make it an illegal target) you could bypass the ... lets call it a drawback ... completely.  However if you don't have it target then it could just sac itself to return itself. 

Perhapse something a little different...

Legendary Creature - Dragon Necromancer
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a non-zombie creature and put a 4/4 Black Zombie Dragon with Flying into play under your control.  If that creature was a necromancer return a creature from an opponent's graveyard to play under your control.
"Much in same way a mother dragon needs to feed before laying her clutch, Raktuur needs the flesh of the living to spawn her unholy brood." - Areth, Dragon Hunter.

With this wording, at some point the creature kills itself, leaving behind at very least a 4/4 vanilla flier and a reanimated creature from your opponent.

Grafted Abomination I think should be to be trigger of some sort.   You could break it up too, something like:
"At the begining of your combat phase, if you do not control a Necromancer sacrifice a creature you control other tha Grafted Abomination and tap Grafted Abomination.
At the begining of your upkeep, if you don't control a Necromancer sacrifice Grafted Abomination and lose 3 life."


Sacrificial Guardian  is way too powerful I think.  It really needs to be "whenever a non-token" or "whenever a non-zombie" otherwise it goes infite with any ability that is "Sac acreature:"   

Yeah you're right on all 3 counts. Raktuur had messed up wording so now I broke it down into 2 triggers with better wording. Grafted Abomination was also kind of messed up non-triggered. Also I definitely didn't mean to make a 2-card infinite combo. Thanks.

[zimagic]

Shanzar, Master Necromancer
Planeswalker - Shanzar
+2: Lose 2 life, draw a card.
-3: Gain control of target Zombie or Necromancer.
-13: Return all creatures from all graveyards into play under your control.
4

  Isn't this the same Ultimate as Vess? [searches Gatherer] Yes, it is, but at almost twice the cost:

-8: Put all creature cards in all graveyards into play under your control.

Also the second ability is extremely narrow and overly costly for the effect, compare it with the cheaper, better version of the same effect on Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker:

-2: Gain control of target creature.

It would require your opponent to have Zombies or Necromancers which are honestly not the most common tribe. If you had a generic effect that made everything a Zombie or Necromancer like Dralnu's Crusade does with Goblins, only then could you steal something. The fact that you would need an extra effect to even make it viable, could I suggest adding power to this effect, making it a generic control Magic effect and/or reducing the cost. You are only starting off with 4 loyalty after all.

Just throwing ideas off the top of my head, if I were doing a zombie heavy theme on a PW, maybe a cheap Corpse Dance type effect would be an interesting untimate. Being able to Zombify + haste + RFG can be a powerful tool, moreso if it can effect your opponent's graveyard. Maybe an Innocent Blood effect on 2 to feed the graveyard and a token effect on one to protect Shanzar a bit:

+1: Put a 0/1 Thrull token into play.
-2: Each player sacrifices a creature.
-5: Return the top creature card from target graveyard to play. That creature gains haste until end of turn. Remove the creature from the game at end of turn.
3

Sure, not very original, the first is a weaker Elsbeth, but the second and ultimate compliment each other directly while the first gets you there. The costs are affordable and attainable and it's not a copy of Jace 1, Bolas 2 & Vess 3, it's a destinct flavour all to himself. Looking at Vess, she's actually quite slow ramping from hitting play to going Ultimate: 4 turns and 3 of those 4 turns is depriving your opponent of a resource. Shanzar doesn't effect your opponent at all if he's not making Zombies/Necromancers and, in fact, while you're ramping him to ultimate in the 6 turns it will take to get there, you will have spent 10 life to net 5 cards and you'll most probably be dead (4 loyalty, 5 turn of ability 1 to take him to 14 = 10 life) If you're somehow not dead, you're either goldfishing or he's milling you.

I think you can get something more "Zombie, brains, brains" than you have above and with much, much cheaper costs. You need to impact your opponent before the ultimate and you need to hit ultimate much, much quicker or have your second much more powerful. For info & a guide on how you need to benefit along the way, here's how long it takes for each PW to get to ultimate (counting the turn it's played as one turn):

Garruk: 2 turns, 2 untapped lands = Overrun
Tezzeret: 2 turns, 2 untapped Artifacts = March of the Machines

Bolas: 3 turns, 2 Destroy target noncreature permanent effects = Nicol Bolas
Sarkhan: 3 turns, 2 +1/+1 & haste for your full team = 5x 4/4 dragons
Adjani Goldmane: 3 turns, +4 life = Avatar (though recent history tells us that may just as well be blank as he's only used for his second ability which makes him even more powerful as you're essentially going "Ultimate, Ultimate, Ultimate, Charge him up, Ultimate etc.")

Lilliana: 4 turns, 3 discard effects = Zombify everybody under your control (though, again, her Vampiric Tutor is a lot more attractive than waiting for the ultimate and may even get here there depending on what card you tutor up.)
Chandra Nalaar: 4 turns, 3 damage to player = Lavalanche for 10

Adjani Vengant: 5 turns, 4 remains tapped effects = One sided Geddon
Elspeth: 5 turns, either four 1/1 soldiers or four +3/+3 & flying effects or a mix of both. = Your permanents are indestructable

I'll slip Shanzar in here:
Shanzar: 6 turns, lose 10 life, draw 5 cards = Put all creature cards in all graveyards into play under your control.

Jace: 8 turns, 7 cards = Mill for 20 (though again he's more used for his second than ultimate, Sanity Grinding deck aside)

So you see what I'm getting at here? The ones that take longer to ultimate can protect themselves or have a much better second ability. at  you really want players to say "Ok, I have to be mono- but LOOK what I can do!!"

Hum, that ended up longer than I had planned.

Sorry.

[Darkenslight]

What about this?

Shazaar the Necromancer 
Planeswalker - Shazaar
+2: Return target creature in a graveyard to play under your control. It becomes a Zombie.
-3: Each player sacrifices a creature.  Remove those crearures from the game.
-8: Put a 2/2 Zombie token with lifelink and deathtouch into play for each creature card in all graveyards.
5

[zimagic]

What about this?

Shazaar the Necromancer 
Planeswalker - Shazaar
+2: Return target creature in a graveyard to play under your control. It becomes a Zombie.
-3: Each player sacrifices a creature.  Remove those creatures from the game.
-8: Put a 2/2 Zombie token with lifelink and deathtouch into play for each creature card in all graveyards.
5

That first is insanely good, probably much too good. Though I like the tension it creates as it's antisynergistic with the ultimate. You're putting the ultimate I was suggesting at number 1. 

The second is anti-synergictic with both the first and the third due to the RFG. Cutting the RFG would make it slot right in.

The third is just excellent, I love it. Nice idea becauses it forces you to use ability 2 (if the RFG is removed) and creates a nice tension to ability 1.

What do you think about scaling 1 back and changing 2 a little?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Shanzar, Master Necromancer
Planeswalker - Shanzar
+X: Sacrifice a creature, add X black mana to your mana pool where X is that creature's converted mana cost.
-2: Put a creature card from any graveyard in to play under your control.
-13: Target player loses 2 life and discards a card for each creature in play under your control. You gain 2 life and draw a card for each creature card in your graveyard.
4

Essentially he becomes extremely powerful if you're running a lot of Necromancer effects of reanimating huge dudes to get his ultimate in 2 turns but otherwise you shouldn't reasonably get his ultimate so his second ability is pretty strong as well. He seems pretty synergistic and balanced without really ripping off anyone else. (had no idea there already were similar effects thanks a lot for catching that XD) Also his ultimate forces you to animate your opponent's creatures rather than your own for the best possible effect, but his first ability might make it risky from lack of high casting cost creatures. Looks like a very involving planeswalker rather than the usual "yeah he has 1 linear way to charge up and 1 linear ability." Thoughts?

[Darkenslight]

Shanzar, Master Necromancer
Planeswalker - Shanzar
+X: Sacrifice a creature, add X black mana to your mana pool where X is that creature's converted mana cost.
-2: Put a creature card from any graveyard in to play under your control.
-13: Target player loses 2 life and discards a card for each creature in play under your control. You gain 2 life and draw a card for each creature card in your graveyard.
4

Essentially he becomes extremely powerful if you're running a lot of Necromancer effects of reanimating huge dudes to get his ultimate in 2 turns but otherwise you shouldn't reasonably get his ultimate so his second ability is pretty strong as well. He seems pretty synergistic and balanced without really ripping off anyone else. (had no idea there already were similar effects thanks a lot for catching that XD) Also his ultimate forces you to animate your opponent's creatures rather than your own for the best possible effect, but his first ability might make it risky from lack of high casting cost creatures. Looks like a very involving planeswalker rather than the usual "yeah he has 1 linear way to charge up and 1 linear ability." Thoughts?

I like the ultimate, but I think that the first ability on yours is rather awkward (it does fit the flavour of Black, however).

What about the modification to this:

Cost becomes ; name and type remain
+X: Target player sacrifices a creature with converted mana cost X.
-4: Put a permanent card from a graveyard into play under your control.  If it's a creature, it becomes a Zombie.
-12: Each opponent loses 1 life for each creature you control.  Then, you gain 1 life and draw a card for the life lost this way.
5

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Shanzar, Master Necromancer
Planeswalker - Shanzar
+X: Sacrifice a creature, add X black mana to your mana pool where X is that creature's converted mana cost.
-2: Put a creature card from any graveyard in to play under your control.
-13: Target player loses 2 life and discards a card for each creature in play under your control. You gain 2 life and draw a card for each creature card in your graveyard.
4

Essentially he becomes extremely powerful if you're running a lot of Necromancer effects of reanimating huge dudes to get his ultimate in 2 turns but otherwise you shouldn't reasonably get his ultimate so his second ability is pretty strong as well. He seems pretty synergistic and balanced without really ripping off anyone else. (had no idea there already were similar effects thanks a lot for catching that XD) Also his ultimate forces you to animate your opponent's creatures rather than your own for the best possible effect, but his first ability might make it risky from lack of high casting cost creatures. Looks like a very involving planeswalker rather than the usual "yeah he has 1 linear way to charge up and 1 linear ability." Thoughts?

I like the ultimate, but I think that the first ability on yours is rather awkward (it does fit the flavour of Black, however).

What about the modification to this:

Cost becomes ; name and type remain
+X: Target player sacrifices a creature with converted mana cost X.
-4: Put a permanent card from a graveyard into play under your control.  If it's a creature, it becomes a Zombie.
-12: Each opponent loses 1 life for each creature you control.  Then, you gain 1 life and draw a card for the life lost this way.
5

Seems massively overpowered in that you can just add 99999999999999999999999999999 999 counters in 1 turn. Even if worded in a way so that you couldn't it still seems really overpowered since it is essentially targeted removal on the biggest creatures your opponent has while also adding counters. Also the second ability seems much more overpowered in that you can target any permanent type (even though I'm pretty sure permanents are only permanents when they're in play) and Necromancers typically reanimate creatures only.

Also overall I like the synergy in my abilities more, I was just wondering if they had a reasonable power level.

[Darkenslight]

I like the ultimate, but I think that the first ability on yours is rather awkward (it does fit the flavour of Black, however).

What about the modification to this:

Cost becomes ; name and type remain
+X: Target player sacrifices a creature with converted mana cost X.
-4: Put a permanent card from a graveyard into play under your control.  If it's a creature, it becomes a Zombie.
-12: Each opponent loses 1 life for each creature you control.  Then, you gain 1 life and draw a card for the life lost this way.
5

Seems massively overpowered in that you can just add 99999999999999999999999999999 999 counters in 1 turn. Even if worded in a way so that you couldn't it still seems really overpowered since it is essentially targeted removal on the biggest creatures your opponent has while also adding counters. Also the second ability seems much more overpowered in that you can target any permanent type (even though I'm pretty sure permanents are only permanents when they're in play) and Necromancers typically reanimate creatures only.

Also overall I like the synergy in my abilities more, I was just wondering if they had a reasonable power level.

1) That's why the first ability doesn't have the text "or less".
2) The second ability says 'permenent card', that;s also why the second ability costs so much, Loyalty wise.

Also, bear in mind that that it will take at LEAST 2 turns before the Ultimate can be used.  This still gives a window for Shazaar to be killed; granted, it won't be easy, cause, y'know, Master Necromancer and all that. 

[Harlequin]

1) That's why the first ability doesn't have the text "or less".
2) The second ability says 'permenent card', that;s also why the second ability costs so much, Loyalty wise.

Also, bear in mind that that it will take at LEAST 2 turns before the Ultimate can be used.  This still gives a window for Shazaar to be killed; granted, it won't be easy, cause, y'know, Master Necromancer and all that. 

What?  Point 1 doesn't matter... sure you won't kill a creature with 9000 CMC but, atleast you make your shaz somewhat indestructable and makes his ultimate ability usable next turn and every turn after that.  The first ability you made might as well be:
+X: do nothing (X may be any number you want).


An interesting ability might be...
-1: Target player sacrifices a creature, Put X loyalty counters on Shazaar where X is the sacrificed cretaures converted mana cost.

So its while techincally a "+" ability, in most cases  when used it will pump your dude.  You could also target yourself to sac your sournful egotist. 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Harlequin what are your thoughts on mine?

Shanzar, Master Necromancer
Planeswalker - Shanzar
+X: Sacrifice a creature, add X black mana to your mana pool where X is that creature's converted mana cost.
-2: Put a creature card from any graveyard in to play under your control.
-13: Target player loses 2 life and discards a card for each creature in play under your control. You gain 2 life and draw a card for each creature card in your graveyard.
4

I thought that sacrificing a creature to make Shanzar more loyal while pumping mana fit the theme of being a Necromancer more in addition to kind of being with the flavor text of Right of Necromancy. Also it makes his first ability really synergistic with the other 2. Essentially you cast him->animate fatty, next turn attack->sacrifice fatty for a bunch of mana->cast some kind of overcosted animate or creature->repeat. Do you think it is too powerful?

[Harlequin]

+X: Sacrifice a creature, add X black mana to your mana pool where X is that creature's converted mana cost.


Again I don't think that really works in the current rules.  You can't have an X cost, then a choice at resolution. The way the rules work I would have to choose X first (not choose a creature first) then that ability goes on the stack and a world of things can happen... perhapse like a good player I chose X=3, and before the ability resolves, my only CMC=3 guy dies; what happens now?  

You need to tie the X's together through targeting (because targets are chosen -before- costs are paid), or tie them on resolution. So it either needs to be...

+X: Sacrifice target creature with converted mana cost X.  Add X Black mana to your mana pool.

or

0: Sacrifice a creature.  Add X black mana to your mana pool and put X loyalty on Shanz where X is that creatures converted mana cost.

As far as power level goes... its ok.  I think the first two abilites are enough to win on its own.  As you said, you have random fatties and then tons of mana.  I actually don't really see use for the ultimate ability... I think all 3 abilites could probably be toned back a little.  I dunno. 

Maybe have it add a flat amount of mana... like instead of X? 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

+X: Sacrifice target creature (is "you control" necessary or is it implied by sacrifice?) with converted mana cost X.  Add X Black mana to your mana pool.

This seems neater according to the way planeswalkers are currently being printed and definitely what I was looking for. The ultimate was more as a "well FINE if my army of fatties and boatloads of mana aren't enough then screw this I'm tapping in to my ultimate necromancer powers to just pwn you." Also better in multiplayer formats I guess where you might not be able to win ground wars and just need some win. What about:

+X: Sacrifice target creature (is "you control" necessary or is it implied by sacrifice?).  Add X Black mana to your mana pool where X is the amount of creature cards in your graveyard.

Basically it will always add some mana but as your animation progresses it adds less and less. It also works with his ultimate in enforcing that you should be animating your opponent's creatures first. I'd rather it target like you said to force you to sacrifice a creature and make it so that you can't just get away with not having one in play. Is that enough of a tweak to make it balanced/does it work with the current rules?

[Darkenslight]

With the alternate ability in your last post, you'll probablt need to switch the two around, and make the sacrifice a targetted effect for you alone (price of power and all that).

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

With the alternate ability in your last post, you'll probablt need to switch the two around, and make the sacrifice a targetted effect for you alone (price of power and all that).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that sorry. :S

Anyways some new ideas for this little tribe:

Frantic Necromancer
Creature - Necromancer
, put a -1/-1 counter on Frantic Necromancer: Return target creature from a graveyard to play under your control.
Unearth ( : Return this card from your graveyard to play. It gains haste. Remove it from the game at end of turn or if it would leave play. Unearth only as a sorcery.)
2/3
Reanimation, at any cost.

Ritual of Death
Tribal Instant - Necromancer
Target player sacrifices a creature for each Necromancer in play.

Necromastery
Legendary Tribal Enchantment - Necromancer
If a spell or ability other than Necromastery causes you to lose life, treat it as if 1 life was lost for each control counter put on Necromastery.
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a control counter on Necromastery and lose 1 life.
If Necromastery would leave play, each opponent sacrifices a creature and loses 1 life for each control counter on Necromastery instead. You gain 1 life for each control counter on Necromastery. Remove Necromastery from the game.

Necromastery is essentially meant to be a bomb when combined with Confidant/Ad Nauseam and more or less an infinite engine with 1 counter+Bargain/Necro. Also it is randomly good against burn. Thoughts/comments before I add them to the first post bold list?