[Single Card Discussion] Golden Lotus

[Lurker101]

Confirmed at MTGsalvation.com: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=164343

Golden Lotus
   
Legendary Land   Mythic Rare
Shroud
Golden Lotus enters the battlefield tapped.
When Golden Lotus enters the battlefield, sacrifice three lands, or sacrifice Golden Lotus.
, Sacrifice Golden Lotus: Add nine mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.

I see some combo potential here, it has shroud and the comes into play effect can even be stifled. Anyone think this is going to make a dent?

[neotrophy]

I really don't think this has any future in vintage at all.  Even if everything goes right for it, it's not usable until turn 2, and that's if you draw a saphire, stifle, and this.  3 lands is an enormous price when it enters play tapped.

Yes, it makes a huge amount of mana.  But given that most of the time you're going to be holding around 4 cards when you play this, I really can't see it being that good.

It's too slow, too conditional and too much focussed on the big, splashy play.  I can see it making an impact in some of the smaller pool formats, where some plays are really hard to find an answer for.  But in vintage, where every threat has a cheaper answer, it's just too many eggs for any basket.

[Wagner]

I really hope they have the name wrong. A Lotus as a land, really? You're telling me this flower is as big as an Island or Mountain? It would suck flavor wise. Also, what's the difference between Golden Lotus and Gilded Lotus?

[neotrophy]

One has the colour of, or is made from gold, the other is coated in gold.  So while a gilded lotus would more than likely be golden, a golden lotus need not be gilded.  All that glitters is not gold, or even foil.

[Random Noob]

Perhaps it would be played with some cards unrestricted. It could be playable with Fastbond/Gush/Frantic Search. Or perhaps it would help to make cards like Sen Triplets Playable. But I don't think it will do anything without ''cheat it into battlefield'' style, like with Stifle.

[LotusHead]

Perhaps it would be played with some cards unrestricted. It could be playable with Fastbond/Gush/Frantic Search. Or perhaps it would help to make cards like Sen Triplets Playable. But I don't think it will do anything without ''cheat it into battlefield'' style, like with Stifle.

At best, cheated into play with Crucible of Worlds on turn 5 or 6 with many a lock piece in pla...wait, I'm already winning.

[reaperbong]

Everything about this card is lame starting with the flavor and theme. Pretty disapointing of Wizards, especially as this pretty much seals the deal for the end of Mana Burn.

[Harlequin]

I browsed through most of that forum and I really doubt this card has been "confirmed"

1) Its posed by a guy with 7 posts
2) he got it from facebook
3) "For the purposes of this thread and this forum it is nearly confirmed." <-- Really?

The wording keeps changing, etc etc.. Unless someone can come up with a sources, I smell a hoax.

Also the shroud is a dead give-away of a bad designer trying to ensure thier "dream card" has no counter.  I could totally see the conversation in the card creation forum going something like:
"Why is a -land- Golden Lotus?"
"BC ITS SO F*ING HUGE YOU COULD LIVE ON IT!!"
"Ok, what ever, I could just wasteland it anyway..."
"OH MAN YOU'RE RIGHT, I HAVE TO GIVE SHROUD!!  UPDATED"
"Wait, why does it have shroud? I thought it was gigantic..."
"NO ITS TOO SHINEY TO SEE, SO YOU CAN'T TARGET IT! OBV"

[Arsenal]

The word "Lotus" has appeared on a Land card before.  Lotus Vale, a Land card, was released in Weatherlight.  Why are so many people (not necessarily in this thread, but all over the internet forums) making a big deal that the word "Lotus" is on a Land card?

[MEATROCKET]

The word "Lotus" has appeared on a Land card before.  Lotus Vale, a Land card, was released in Weatherlight.  Why are so many people (not necessarily in this thread, but all over the internet forums) making a big deal that the word "Lotus" is on a Land card?

Lotus Vale is an appropriate name for a land card because it's a vale.  Golden Lotus is not an appropriate name for a land card because it's a lotus.  I don't mind either way, but it still doesn't make sense.

[Diakonov]

The word "Lotus" has appeared on a Land card before.  Lotus Vale, a Land card, was released in Weatherlight.  Why are so many people (not necessarily in this thread, but all over the internet forums) making a big deal that the word "Lotus" is on a Land card?

Lotus Vale is an appropriate name for a land card because it's a vale.  Golden Lotus is not an appropriate name for a land card because it's a lotus.  I don't mind either way, but it still doesn't make sense.

[Arsenal]

Golden Lotus is not an appropriate name for a land card because it's a lotus.

You do understand that a lotus is a type of plant.  Plants are grown from the ground.  The ground is a specific area on a plot of land.  I don't understand how you're not seeing the obvious, and logical, association between lotus + land.

[Harlequin]

Lands are named after places not things.  So Vale (another word for Valley) is a place.  Even something like Mirikoku, Center of the Sea ... is a place (and if taken literally the center would be a single point of no dimension).   
Or perhaps a building, a building is a place.  If it was named "Lotus Depot" or something, there wouldn't be any objection to its land status.

Elephant Graveyard = Place
Rogue Elephant = thing. 

I'll bet you can guess which of those is a land, and which is a dude... despite the fact that they both have the word "elephant" printed on them.

So I would think that if
Lotus Vale = Place (just like all the other "<adjective> vale" cards out there)
Then
Golden Lotus = Thing (just like all other "<adjective> Lotus" cards out there).


Perhaps I'm giving WOTC Developers too much credit, but this card has all the signs of a poorly designed "dream card" pulled straight from some Card Creation Forum.

[Diakonov]

did you guys not see my picture? 

I think that solves both arguments here.

[MEATROCKET]

You do understand that a lotus is a type of plant.  Plants are grown from the ground.  The ground is a specific area on a plot of land.  I don't understand how you're not seeing the obvious, and logical, association between lotus + land.

Of course I understand that a lotus is a plant.  That was actually the entire point of my post.  I don't understand how you're making the connection that a flower = land.

@ Diakonov
No, it doesn't.  It's not fair to call a flower a land no matter how big it is.

To be fair, though, this happened with Boseiju, too.  It's a tree that's a land.  Doesn't make sense, but whatever.  I won't complain, but I will argue about it.

I think the card is trash, but I look forward to trading it to casuals.  It's their wet dream!

[Diakonov]

@ Diakonov
No, it doesn't.  It's not fair to call a flower a land no matter how big it is.

I'm referring to the argument of whether or not the card will be a land on the grounds of it "not making any sense." 

The semantics argument is a waste of time.

[Arsenal]

You do understand that a lotus is a type of plant.  Plants are grown from the ground.  The ground is a specific area on a plot of land.  I don't understand how you're not seeing the obvious, and logical, association between lotus + land.

Of course I understand that a lotus is a plant.  That was actually the entire point of my post.  I don't understand how you're making the connection that a flower = land.

@ Diakonov
No, it doesn't.  It's not fair to call a flower a land no matter how big it is.

To be fair, though, this happened with Boseiju, too.  It's a tree that's a land. Doesn't make sense, but whatever.  I won't complain, but I will argue about it.

I think the card is trash, but I look forward to trading it to casuals.  It's their wet dream!

I was just about to post that.  Boesiju is a tree, a thing under Harlequin's definition, but it was classified as a land.  Although, I suppose you could also argue that the tree in question is so epic and monumental, that it's a place.  Like, "meet me at the oak tree".  Or, "meet me at the golden lotus".  

[Klep]

Time to get this thread back on topic.  If you want to talk about the card's flavor, take it to the appropriate forum.

-Klep

[TopSecret]

Hm. Well, Dreadnought + Stifle sees some play.
So perhaps comparing this card to Dreadnought isn't the most effective method for judging power,
since one is a 12/12 and one is 9 mana,
but I think it could help to put this card in perspective by giving it some context:


Dreadnought + Stifle:

Costs two mana and two cards.

Puts a 12/12 artifact guy on the board.
This seems like a good way win the game in the next 2 turns.

However, this combination is countered by almost every disruption card that sees play,
which, besides counterspells and hand disruption
includes normal and artifact bounce, targeted creature removal, and artifact removal.
There are some other things, like the opponent having enough creatures to block (or Tinker),
but that gets convoluted.

So, this is best when the opponent lacks an answer or you have additional disruption to protect it
for the next 2 turns (3 with blockers) it takes to win the game.


Golden Lotus + Stifle:

Costs one mana and a land drop.

Adds nine mana of any combination.
This seems like a good way to effectively rap up the game.

This combo can be hit by counters and discard (although, it's important to note that Golden Lotus can't be Thoughtseized), but
unlike Dreadnought, this combo cannot be hit by most removal, like bounce, and creature and artifact removal.

However, this combo requires that you have things in hand to cast or uses of the mana, unlike Dreadnought.
So, this combo is more based upon your hand and deck than our opponents.

This makes it terrible to topdeck this combo late-game if you have no hand.

However, the card Golden Lotus itself can be cast and used, unlike the Dreadnought portion of the Stifle + Dreadnought combo.
Relying on hardcasting this card probably isn't what you'd like to do (unless you enjoy the fun deck ever!),
but it does not seem bad as a backup plan, since 9 mana is a lot of mana.


There are pluses and minuses to either combo.
The difference in cost, a land drop instead of an extra mana, is noteworthy,
but the end result is that Golden Lotus + Stifle is more resilient to disruption than the Dreadnought + Stifle combo.

So, since the assembling the combo seems entirely feasible, I think what people have to ask now is,
"Is this combo worth assembling? What can I do with nine mana? Can I put this combo into a deck that can effectively use that nine mana?"


Of course, this card could end up being entirely different than the version posted,
or be downright awful ("Timmy (keyword) - This mana may be spent only on creatures with power 5 or greater."),
but that's another discussion entirely.

[Diakonov]

If it were to be used in a control-ish deck, it would probably need to have mad pitch counters.  The turn that you lay it, you should have enough mana to Stifle & Counter, but it's the opponent's following turn that would end up being a problem.  If you can survive, though, you could probably go off.  Maybe run Int/AK/Deep Anal and/or Skeletal Scrying as your main draw engine to maximize your drawing capability.

Otherwise, it might make its way into a slow combo deck like TPS.  Duress and Force for a few turns, then go off.  An uncounterable 9 mana for a deck based around storm sounds like it could be scary.  Who knows though, it might just be too slow.  I can't imagine ever running more than 2, maximum.

It combos with Frantic Search a little bit.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Sounds massively like a pile of lies, but assuming it DOES exist why would you waste time Stifling the CIP ability rather than running stuff like Frantic Search and Snap to just untap it and float an asston of mana on turn 1? "Academy" 09 ftw? I mean everything that would Golden Lotus a bomb in Vintage either works with Academy also, or is useful by itself. (or with Dreadnought obviously) 10+ mana on turn 2 is busted, but 9 mana on turn 1 is wtf.

Also I can't believe nobody pointed out that all Lotus effects add one color of mana. More flavor fail on this cad.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[lotus]

Looks like an autoban for Legacy and instant watchlist for Vintage.

At least WotC is succeding in their goal to make blue a weaker color. All we needed was a 9-mana Blue Ritual.

If it were to be used in a control-ish deck, it would probably need to have mad pitch counters.  The turn that you lay it, you could float for Stifle + Counter (and no burning!!), but it's the opponent's following turn that would end up being a problem.  If you can survive, though, you could probably go off.  Maybe run Int/AK/Deep Anal and/or Skeletal Scrying as your main draw engine to maximize your drawing capability.

Otherwise, it might make its way into a slow combo deck like TPS.  Duress and Force for a few turns, then go off.  An uncounterable 9 mana for a deck based around storm sounds like it could be scary.  Who knows though, it might just be too slow.  I can't imagine ever running more than 2, maximum.

It combos with Frantic Search a little bit.

Trickbind.

[DubDub]

Perhaps it would be played with some cards unrestricted. It could be playable with Fastbond/Gush/Frantic Search. Or perhaps it would help to make cards like Sen Triplets Playable. But I don't think it will do anything without ''cheat it into battlefield'' style, like with Stifle.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, did you note that as currently presented one has to sacrifice the land upon use?

Fastbond won't be unrestricted, ever.

It doesn't work with Gush because it's not an island, and if you aren't stifling the trigger you'll be saccing your islands to play it.  I'm pretty sure unrestricted Gush + restricted Fastbond is good enough.

It doesn't really work with Frantic Search because you have to sacrifice the land to use it, so yes, you can untap it with Frantic Search on the turn you play it, but that's still -1 CA from Frantic and at least -1 CA from Stifle, and then another -1 for using the land, all for 9 mana.  Doesn't seem worth it.  I would think building around restricted Tolarian Academy makes more sense with unrestricted Frantic Search than multiple copies of this new land.

This land, as currently presented (and I don't entirely trust the source), isn't broken.  It will be a good card if it ends up working with Stifle/Trickbind, but not great. 

[Harlequin]

Frantic Search is an instant - so you can just respond to the "sac 3 untapped lands trigger" to untap it before you have to sac.

I mean you could finally make "twddle.deck" with timevault, a bunch of instant untap cards, and 4 lands that don't and will never exists!

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Frantic Search is an instant - so you can just respond to the "sac 3 untapped lands trigger" to untap it before you have to sac.

I mean you could finally make "twddle.deck" with timevault, a bunch of instant untap cards, and 4 lands that don't and will never exists!

Oh man, I wish. This card that won't exist has shroud so I can't even pretend to Twiddle it.

[Harlequin]

Oh man, Someone should message the OP of that other thread and tell him to change shroud to the troll ascetic version...
"Golden Lotus can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control."

That would make it amazing! 

[Diakonov]

BTW, I forget to mention in my previous post that you don't really need to have Stifle to make this card useful.  Even if you sac three lands, busting out 9 mana on turn 4 or 5 could be enough to seal the game right then and there, whether it's in a combo or control deck.

Frantic Search is an instant - so you can just respond to the "sac 3 untapped lands trigger" to untap it before you have to sac.

I have a rules question in this scenario: if you untap your Golden Lotus in response to the sac trigger, but then sac Lotus for mana, can you still choose the "sac Golden Lotus" mode of the effect and have it fizzle?  Or, does it force you to try and pay the alternate cost?  My guess is that you don't end up having to sac lands...

In summation, I really don't think this card will be that broken at all.  It might be playable.

[Eastman]

Snap is an instant too and does it for one less mana.  I'd also be curious to try Cloud of Faeries.  I agree with Diakanov though, this sounds like it's heading towards a 2nd or 3rd rate combo deck. 

[DubDub]

Okay, I didn't realize Stifle is unnecessary in my example above.  So taking the card as templated what's the best opening hand in this deck?

Black Lotus
Golden Lotus
Frantic Search
Force
[Blue Card]
[???]
[???]

After the resolution of Frantic Search (with either Black Lotus or Frantic Search Forced through) you'll have looted twice with:
two cards left in hand
untapped Golden Lotus
and a Sac Golden Lotus trigger on the stack.

I think you're going to hope that one of those two cards is a draw-7 right?  If so isn't Lotus-->Draw-7 with lands/moxen that stay in play better?

Not to mention that Frantic Search is restricted, Snap requires a target, and Cloud of Faeries isn't instant speed (and so requires an additional Stifle effect).

It seems to me that Polluted Delta or Underground Sea + a Dark Ritual in hand is going to be much better most of the time than what it takes to get this to work.

[Random Noob]

Perhaps it would be played with some cards unrestricted. It could be playable with Fastbond/Gush/Frantic Search. Or perhaps it would help to make cards like Sen Triplets Playable. But I don't think it will do anything without ''cheat it into battlefield'' style, like with Stifle.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, did you note that as currently presented one has to sacrifice the land upon use?

Fastbond won't be unrestricted, ever.

It doesn't work with Gush because it's not an island, and if you aren't stifling the trigger you'll be saccing your islands to play it.  I'm pretty sure unrestricted Gush + restricted Fastbond is good enough.

It doesn't really work with Frantic Search because you have to sacrifice the land to use it, so yes, you can untap it with Frantic Search on the turn you play it, but that's still -1 CA from Frantic and at least -1 CA from Stifle, and then another -1 for using the land, all for 9 mana.  Doesn't seem worth it.  I would think building around restricted Tolarian Academy makes more sense with unrestricted Frantic Search than multiple copies of this new land.

This land, as currently presented (and I don't entirely trust the source), isn't broken.  It will be a good card if it ends up working with Stifle/Trickbind, but not great. 

I think you are right, that this won't get serious to easily. These were just my thoughts and i'm a bit troubled to use this language like i want to . I didn't meant that Fastbond should be unrestricted, i wanted to point more to Gush and Frantic Search + 1 bond. It's not an Island that's clear, but in Gush Bond Decks you will drop many Lands and draw many cards (as with Frantic Search), so that would not be so much trouble to have 3 Lands for Saccing.  My thoughts were to draw the mana from the Lands into the pool, then play the Land, and with the Mana floating Frantic Search to untap the 9 Mana Lotus. Btw I checked, Frantic Search doesn't say ''target lands''.

[Xyre]

Okay, I didn't realize Stifle is unnecessary in my example above.  So taking the card as templated what's the best opening hand in this deck?

Black Lotus
Golden Lotus
Frantic Search
Force
[Blue Card]
[???]
[???]

After the resolution of Frantic Search (with either Black Lotus or Frantic Search Forced through) you'll have looted twice with:
two cards left in hand
untapped Golden Lotus
and a Sac Golden Lotus trigger on the stack.

I think you're going to hope that one of those two cards is a draw-7 right?  If so isn't Lotus-->Draw-7 with lands/moxen that stay in play better?

Not to mention that Frantic Search is restricted, Snap requires a target, and Cloud of Faeries isn't instant speed (and so requires an additional Stifle effect).

It seems to me that Polluted Delta or Underground Sea + a Dark Ritual in hand is going to be much better most of the time than what it takes to get this to work.

Well, to be fair, it isn't as if you need to play your Frantic Search immediately; threatening fifteen mana and three cards next turn is a pretty scary thing for anyone.

I think this card ultimately suffers from Channel syndrome: yes, you've got a ton of mana, but what good does that do you? This format isn't about big mana as much as chaining the appropriate mana and spells. Channel is exceptional because it works so well with Lich's Mirror.