[Article] Lets talk about TPS shall we.

[Marske]

I wouldn't call FoF awful, the card has it's uses and can be pretty devastating at times.... the only problem is I haven't found a decent enough card to really give you the same amount of cards / speed you get when you EOT FoF your opponent.

[Gekoratel]

TPS can't play Dark Confidant and Force of Will in the same deck with as many high casting cost cards as the deck plays.

I disagree with this statement, TPS lists with Dark Confidant have been performing pretty well in Europe lately and if you cut MisD, FoF, and the Robot the average casting cost is not that high.  The average European list has an average CMC of 1.5 which isn't bad at all.  Dark Confidant is a permanent and continual source of card advantage against Shops and also gives the deck a bit more late game potential at the sacrifice of a better early to mid-game.  In the current metagame I think Confidant is a fine choice in TPS.

Quote
2 Moxen, 2 Dark Ritual and a Force of Will (this hand might be keepable in rare circumstances, but on the play against an unknown opponent mulliganing seems correct).

every bomb you topdeck is a win... the hand my look like crap and not going anywhere soon, but if you just grab 1 single tutor it could be easily game over. Steve has gone indepth to this sort of thing in his article Mastering TPS and I've had countless hands with this kind of stuff as well. This hand isn't keepable in rare circumstances but in MOST circumstances.

It's interesting that you believe that this is a fine hand.  Nearly half of TPS is mana and then add in Duress + Force the odds of drawing into a threat isn't the highest.  I realize that drawing into Duress' and Force will help to disrupt your opponent until you can hit a threat but I feel like your taking to much of a gamble rather than just taking a mulligan.  Is this a hand you would keep on the play or just on the draw?  Also the hand listed is only 5 cards but I'm assuming the other 2 cards would be lands.

[Marske]

I disagree with this statement, TPS lists with Dark Confidant have been performing pretty well in Europe lately and if you cut MisD, FoF, and the Robot the average casting cost is not that high.  The average European list has an average CMC of 1.5 which isn't bad at all.  Dark Confidant is a permanent and continual source of card advantage against Shops and also gives the deck a bit more late game potential at the sacrifice of a better early to mid-game.  In the current metagame I think Confidant is a fine choice in TPS.

With Misdir, FoF and Robot out of the deck you still have 4 FoW, Desire, Jar, Gifts and any spell about 2 mana in your deck which A) Reduce the amount of cards you can potentially draw of necro / Bargain and B) reduce the ability you have to abuse your Vamp, Seal, Grim with every hit you take. Unless you can run a Top to minimize this I don't thing this is a very good idea. Now don't get me wrong, Dark Confidant is huge and a great card, but I think it's more at home in a GWSx style deck then in a TPS style deck. It really doesn't fit the game plan TPS wants to execute imo.

It's interesting that you believe that this is a fine hand.  Nearly half of TPS is mana and then add in Duress + Force the odds of drawing into a threat isn't the highest.  I realize that drawing into Duress' and Force will help to disrupt your opponent until you can hit a threat but I feel like your taking to much of a gamble rather than just taking a mulligan.  Is this a hand you would keep on the play or just on the draw?  Also the hand listed is only 5 cards but I'm assuming the other 2 cards would be lands.

The other 2 cards indeed where lands (as seen in the example stated in the article I quoted). Lets look at another example out of "Mastering TPS" by Steve:

Consider this hand:

Force of Will
Ponder
Mind’s Desire
Dark Ritual
Grim Tutor
Yawgmoth’s Will
Duress

If this hand had a land, it could generate a massive Yawgmoth’s Will within a turn or two, and potentially a Mind’s Desire for 6 (or more) within that Will.

But is this hand keepable?

Some rightfully scoffed at the notion. But consider, seriously for the moment: What circumstances might make this a keepable hand or, at least, not obviously unkeepable?

The first question has to be: what are the possible topdecks that allow productive plays? Here is the list:

2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

15 out of 53 cards seems to weigh heavily, here, in favor of mulliganing.

If your opponent is playing Ichorid, this hand is clearly a loser. Even if your opponent has mulliganed to zero, you risk drawing dead for many turns, giving them the possibility to topdeck a Bazaar and come back into the game. In general, the more your opponent has mulliganed, the less keepable this hand appears. Regardless of the opponent, if your opponent has mulliganed extremely low, let’s say 4 or lower, you actually risk giving them an "in" back into the game by you topdecking dead. However, if your opponent has just mulliganed once and given themselves a slight disadvantage, then this hand appears more keepable than if they mulliganed deeply. That’s counterintuitive, but the reasoning is pretty simple. First, if you have a productive topdeck, then you will be able to capitalize on their card disadvantage. Second, their small mulligan actually will buy you a turn or two to find a productive topdeck. When your opponent mulligans deeply, the card disadvantage of mulliganing yourself loses importance, and it’s more important just to have a hand that does something – anything, really.

I think the second question posed here can be answered best by identifying decks that would actually generate more productive topdecks. Specifically: what deck or archetype would increase the number of productive topdecks? Answer: fragile speed combo. This hand has there Blue spells. If you can make Force of Will/Misdirection a productive topdeck here that actually is useful strategically as opposed to merely tactically (as Duress would have been in the first hand I presented in this subsidiary discussion), then that would weigh towards keeping this hand. That’s because against speed combo, a single Force of Will can cause them to lose games by going "all-in" on a single play, especially if they’ve just mulliganed to six.

What Steve has clearly outlined here is the fact that you can't dismiss such hands from the get go. TPS has a lot of broken topdecks... with the suggested hand of:

2 Moxen,
2 Dark Ritual
Force of Will
2 Lands

It only depends on which moxen you actually have (on color or off color) lets assume for the sake of argument your holding the most favorable hand of:

Mox Jet
Mox Sapphire
2 Dark Ritual
Force of Will
Fetch
Underground Sea

You can hit the following cards that could possibly help out or spell victory remember you can cast all of these:

4 Duress
Ancestral recall, Ponder, Brainstorm
Necro, Bargain, Desire (preferably), Jar
DT, Vamp, seal, Grim, Mystical, Gifts, Fact, Time Walk, Tinker, Twister.

You basically have acces to 21 cards including most of your bombs and tutors with the mana in this hand. The biggest question is "what are you up against"... against some decks this hand spells a win whenever you hit one of the 21 cards against others you'll need to hit disruption first. This is why single hands can't be judged as simply as "it's all mana / it's has no mana so it's garbage" with TPS. It depends on a lot of factors.

[Gekoratel]

Personally I see that kind of hand as a trap because even with 21 relevant cards you can hit that still leaves a 60% chance that you will outright miss, and I'm not sure how great topdecking into a Duress is because your setting up to protect a potential threat but you still need to draw into it.  For example if you hit runner runner Duress you've crippled your opponents hand but odds are there still doing something relevant where as your board hasn't changed greatly expect with a couple more lands in play.  Also drawing into the topdeck tutors is fine but not great setting up a turn 2 or 3(depending on whose on play) threat with no backup.  I'd say there are only about 13-14 cards on that list that I'd be happy to draw into.  I agree that quality of hands vary greatly against different matchup but this hand doesn't strike me as strong against many decks and weaker than an average six card hand.

[Marske]

@Gekoratel,
I agree with you that the hand is indeed risky, but outright dismissing the hand also isn't correct... it has a lot of potential depending on what deck you're facing and if your on the draw / play.

My point in this whole story was that you must look at every single hand everytime you draw it, a hand full of land with 1-2 bombs and a tutor could be crap against drains but could be king vs Staxx. It isn't as simple as saying if you're hand doesn't have a mix of card X along with card Y and Z the hand is keepable or not. TPS isn't like Ichorid which mulligans because it doesn't have a Bazaar, a  suprisingly large amount of hands is keepable if you really get into it.

[MagicMan]

Hi all, This has been a very interesting thread and TPS is currently my favorite deck to play. That said I have a few thoughts and questions, especially regarding sideboard. I'll post my list after I explain my thoughts.  Of course this is meta dependent, but my meta seems to be a lot of Tezz and a lot of noble fish/selkie slam. Through playtesting noblie fish/selkie slam seems to be an almost automatic loss first game, especially if they are mainboarding aven mindcensor's along with meddling mages, rods, stifle x4, waste, strip, daze x4, fow etc etc.  Because of this I have changed my sideboard, which last tournament was a relativley normal . . .

Previous sideboard
pithing needle x2
tormod's crypt x3
yixiad jailer x3
hurkyl's recall x2
chain of vapor x2
massacre x1
island x1
swamp x1

To this current sideboard plan to help me deal with more fish's and what seems to be less ichorid

Current side board
yixiad jailer x3
pithing needle x3
massacre x3
hurky's recall x2
chain of vapor x2
island x1
swamp x1

I have seen a dramatic improvment running 3 massacres sideboard for this very difficult matchup with noble/selkie fish. I assume the massacre will also be benefitial against Tezz when they sideboard cannonists in as I have seen.

So I currently side in massacre x3, chain of vapor x2, swamp x1, and island x1 against fishy decks and side out mox pearl, mox emeral, mana vault, cabal ritual x2, and lastly, but least confidenty, memory jar.

mox's come out for basics, vault comes out cause of null rod, and rituals come out cause i can still combo easy without them.

So I guess i've written all this to see everyones thoughts on my propsed change of sideboard , which I am going to run at an upcoming tourny this week and also get any suggestions or thoughts you may have.

Finally, heres my decklist.

Black Lotus
moxen x5
sol ring
lotus petal
mana vault
mana crypt

darksteel colossus
memory jar
force of will x4
duress x4
cabal ritual x2
dark ritual x4
mystical tutor
merchant scroll
time twister
time walk
ancestral recall
ponder
brainstorm
gifts ungiven
fact or fiction
necropotence
yawgmoth's bargain
chain of vapor
rebuild
tinker
mind's desire
yawgmoth's will
demonic tutor
vampiric tutor
imperial seal
grim tutor x2
tendrils of agony

tolarian academy
underground sea x2
island x2
swamp x2
polluted delta x4
bloodstained mire x1

Thanks ahead of time for all your input and thoughts, JJ

[Marske]

@Magicman,
I like the way your board looks, I'm only worried about facing Teeg which can be a huge pest, but then again seeing you have 3 Chain of vapor to deal with him it seems doable. I'm only worried about the fact that you may be "weakening" the maindeck too much by boarding stuff out in order to deal with cards you're not likely to see very fast.

[MagicMan]

@Magicman,
I like the way your board looks, I'm only worried about facing Teeg which can be a huge pest, but then again seeing you have 3 Chain of vapor to deal with him it seems doable. I'm only worried about the fact that you may be "weakening" the maindeck too much by boarding stuff out in order to deal with cards you're not likely to see very fast.

Are you mostly talking about Memory Jar.  Cause that is the only card I'm really concerned about boarding out and could use some suggestions for another option? Maybe I could keep in Jar and one cabal ritual, but them I have to find 2 other things to board out and I'm not sure what they would be?

Actually, I could probably board out the rebuild instead of the memory jar so that fixes one issue as I will still have 3 chain of vapors to deal with annoying singletins.  Again thoughts/suggestions?

[Marske]

@MagicMan,
Well, I'm not sure what you're boarding In / Out in that matchup, I assumed you board in massacre and chain. But seeing as Fish also attacks your mana base boarding in basics + bounce also works. Needles can be useful against waste / strip as well adding to this fact that canonist can also be boarded in by fish, you have the potential of boarding in:

pithing needle x3
massacre x3
hurky's recall x2
chain of vapor x2
island x1
swamp x1

Taking out a whopping 12 cards if you board every possible solution. So you can see that without any explanation of what you're boarding in / out I can't really answer that question.

[MagicMan]

I'm sorry marske, I thought I did explain my boarding in/out plan in my initial post with this,

"I have seen a dramatic improvment running 3 massacres sideboard for this very difficult matchup with noble/selkie fish. I assume the massacre will also be benefitial against Tezz when they sideboard cannonists in as I have seen.

So I currently side in massacre x3, chain of vapor x2, swamp x1, and island x1 against fishy decks and side out mox pearl, mox emeral, mana vault, cabal ritual x2, and lastly, but least confidenty, memory jar."

But, you may have missed it or maybe I wasn't clear enough, which I apologize for as I'm probably not the best at writing or posting for that matter. 

So as I said I would side in massacre x3, chain of vapor x2, swamp x1, and island x1 against noble/selkie fish, while siding out off color moxen emerald and pearl as well as mana vault, cabal ritual x2, and memory jar.

Then you stated-

@Magicman,
I like the way your board looks, I'm only worried about facing Teeg which can be a huge pest, but then again seeing you have 3 Chain of vapor to deal with him it seems doable. I'm only worried about the fact that you may be "weakening" the maindeck too much by boarding stuff out in order to deal with cards you're not likely to see very fast.

I agree that i might be siding out to much brokeness and my one concern was siding out memory jar. I think that a better play would be siding out rebuild instead of memory jar since my fishy opponents are probably not tinkering for inkwell and I still have chain of vapor x3 for null rod if i need to get rid of it.

Your valued thoughts?

[desolutionist]

I'll be playing something like this:

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Frantic Search
1 Tinker
1 Rushing River
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Timetwister
1 Mind’s Desire
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

I don't like Necropotence that much, so that might be a Sensei's Divining Top.  Windfall and Imperial Seal (especially with Top) are another two cards that could make the cut.  Cabal Ritual, Grim Tutor, and Memory Jar are sub par in my opinion.  The sideboard will be Leylines, basics, removal spells, more Hurkyl's, and something for the Drain matchup.

[Gekoratel]

I think running two Misdirection is a mistake, there are going to be more Shops decks and adding an additional copy of a card that is already questionable in the MD doesn't seem like a good choice to me.  I know you like TFK and Frantic search but I don't really see the appeal of these cards.  With TPS I don't generally want to be assuming the control role which TFK helps to do and Frantic search just seems unexciting.  I'm not sure how you can dislike Necropotence the card is just insane it loses some value if your playing Bob TPS but your not.  Also Cephalid Coliseum seems suspect your weakening your manabase for a card that will give you a slight edge in the late game?  If you want to make your manabase sketchier splash red for EtW and Wheel.  Also are you planning on going to tournaments again?

[desolutionist]

I think running two Misdirection is a mistake, there are going to be more Shops decks and adding an additional copy of a card that is already questionable in the MD doesn't seem like a good choice to me.

Are there going to be more shop decks?  I was sort of under the impression that Tez is the deck to beat right now.  Wouldn't that fact discourage the use of Shop decks?  I'm also very fond of Misdirection; It pitches to FoW, beats counterspells, and steals Ancestral Recalls.  I suppose the alternative would be to cut Misdirection and some of the other blue spells for Cabal Rituals, Grim Tutors, etc. to make it a more aggressive deck. 

I know you like TFK and Frantic search but I don't really see the appeal of these cards.  With TPS I don't generally want to be assuming the control role which TFK helps to do and Frantic search just seems unexciting.

I try to play the control role in a lot of matchups until I actually have the kill.  Hand-fixing is critical for that kind of strategy, but you might be right that the aggressive version is better.

I'm not sure how you can dislike Necropotence the card is just insane it loses some value if your playing Bob TPS but your not.

I don't like BBB without 2-3 additional Cabal Rituals and Grim Tutors especially on something like Necropotence, a card that gets worse as the game progresses.  And in a deck like this, I like the idea of just using it as a draw engine rather than a kill condition.  If you waste all of your life points assembling a combo kill with Force backup and your opponent drops two 2Spheres or a Duress + threat, you will die.

Also Cephalid Coliseum seems suspect your weakening your manabase for a card that will give you a slight edge in the late game?  If you want to make your manabase sketchier splash red for EtW and Wheel.

Cephalid Coliseum needs a home...

Also are you planning on going to tournaments again?

Yes.  I don't have a girlfriend anymore.

[Marske]

Are there going to be more shop decks?  I was sort of under the impression that Tez is the deck to beat right now.  Wouldn't that fact discourage the use of Shop decks?  I'm also very fond of Misdirection; It pitches to FoW, beats counterspells, and steals Ancestral Recalls.  I suppose the alternative would be to cut Misdirection and some of the other blue spells for Cabal Rituals, Grim Tutors, etc. to make it a more aggressive deck.

Recent restrions / unrestrictions have made shop players happy... they will rise.

I try to play the control role in a lot of matchups until I actually have the kill.  Hand-fixing is critical for that kind of strategy, but you might be right that the aggressive version is better.

As stated before, I'll repeat myself... wise man says: Misassignment of role = GAME LOSS It's not that hard people You're the aggressor in about 80% of the match ups. You're not supposed to completely ignore the entire ability to play a control roll but most of the time you're the one trying to push for an early victory against an opponent franticly trying to stop you.

I don't like BBB without 2-3 additional Cabal Rituals and Grim Tutors especially on something like Necropotence, a card that gets worse as the game progresses.  And in a deck like this, I like the idea of just using it as a draw engine rather than a kill condition.  If you waste all of your life points assembling a combo kill with Force backup and your opponent drops two 2Spheres or a Duress + threat, you will die.

BBB comes from Dark Ritual, Lotus and thirdly cabal ritual, it has nothing to do with Grim tutor. a first turn necropotence spells a win on the second turn and in the worst of scenarios a turn 3 kill. You don't Necro aggesively with TPS usually you're just using necro to refill your hand. assembling a combo kill with a force of will against an opponent dropping 2 spheres or casting a Duress + threat like you say isn't going to lose you the match (unless the threat is TV AND Key, it seems very unlikely for them to assemble those cards within 2 turns although not impossible)

Cephalid Coliseum needs a home...

It has a home... the decks called Ichorid.... The card has no use in TPS.

@Desolutionist
Sorry for the harsh post but this thread has seen some stuff I'm getting tired off, some things have already been stated over and over again and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. Your initial post with JUST a decklist and some information didn't give us any information about WHY you actually think some of cards you run over other options are better.

Just stating:

Cabal Ritual, Grim Tutor, and Memory Jar are sub par in my opinion.

Doesn't give us anything, WHY do you find these cards to be subpar and what results do you have to prove your claims ? These cards (especially Grim tutor) have been talked about as being necessary evils in this thread before and that entire discussion has been done to death IMHO.

[Stormanimagus]

@marske- I agree that this thread is deteriorating a bit, but I think that's because it is very hard to discuss deck design on a deck that is so homogenous as TPS. I really think that there are between 48-54 "Auto-Includes" in any good TPS list and a great bulk of them are basically indisputable as they are overpowered restricted engines like Necro, Mind's Desire, Timetwister, Yawg Bargain, Yawg Will etc., or they are linchpin 2-4 ofs for the deck like Dark Ritual, FoW or they are draw/tutor cards that are widely agreed upon as being "the best." The room for design space then becomes 2 things:

1. Manabase (and let's be honest, it's pretty boring to discuss manabases. Just make an effective one that's between 13-15 lands!)
2. Sideboard (this is more interesting to discuss, but it almost entirely subjective based on metagame)

SOOOO, what is there left to talk about? Well, I believe the real problem with TPS becoming more popular is the play difficulty. If I had a week or two to spare I'd devote some time to writing a primer article about how to PLAY the deck, but I don't. That's what a thread really needs. How do you pilot TPS effectively at a tournament? Now I know that Stephen Q. Menendian has already written such an article, but I think he often fails at putting things in leyman's terms for the average player trying to improve his/her game by piloting something tricky like TPS. He tends to shower his articles with probability trees and statistical maps that fall on deaf ears because when many players see that sort of thing they simply stop reading. I am almost tempted to at times and I am an avid Sudoku player and love math probabilities. His most effective graphics were his "engine" trees where he discussed the various cards in the deck that can serve as a path to a lethal tendrils. Those actually illustrated something very clearly about HOW IN THE HECK DO I PLAY THIS DECK?!!!

That final question is what needs to be elaborated on in a new article or thread. For lovers of TPS like myself it pains me to see the deck remain great in theory, but never really come through in practice. I firmly believe that, if the deck were piloted more effectively by more players it would make an impact on the drain-heavy meta-game we currently find ourselves in. The unrestriction of Crop Rotation may help to facilitate this transition a bit. If Stax Prison or Workshop Aggro decks catch on then I believe that Mystic Remora will take a turn for the worse as its strategy of just sitting back while the opponent plays spells will fall short against recurring Wasteland or Strip Mine. It will fall short against the Anti-Shop, Anti-Tezz Aggro decks that are popping up all over the place, and finally TPS will be relieved of one the greatest threats to its existence. However, this is not a cop out. I DO believe TPS can beat Mystic Remora. I just think it is very difficult to do so at a long Vintage event when there are so many opportunities to screw up over such a long period of time.

Anyway, I'd like people's thoughts on how to PLAY TPS optimally and, in plain english (ya know, with anecdotal evidence and/or clear, logical explanations), not crazy number-speak.

Peace-

Stormanimagus

[Marske]

@Stormanimagus,
Agreed on all accounts, although I'm the kind of player that loves and understands the way Steve talked about TPS and the decision trees etc I can understand fully how it can be a pretty daunting task for a "novice" player to even start to comprehend how the deck should work let alone how to play it well enough during a event.

If I had a week or two to spare I'd devote some time to writing a primer article about how to PLAY the deck, but I don't. That's what a thread really needs. How do you pilot TPS effectively at a tournament?

Anyway, I'd like people's thoughts on how to PLAY TPS optimally and, in plain english (ya know, with anecdotal evidence and/or clear, logical explanations), not crazy number-speak.

Challenge accepted.... .... since I'm already writing a weekly column for my own new site, I'll gladly put in the time and effort to write this in "laymens" terms. I'll even include a report (got a vintage event this week) to go with it. I only ask 1 thing from everybody who reads this thread....

Just too make sure I'm not putting in such a huge amount of effort for just 2 players interested in such a thing. If you guys want me to do this send me a PM containing the following:

Yeah, Ai, Ya, Ja, Qui, (Basically YES in every language possible). If I get more then 10 responses I'll do the article... Sounds fair enough for you guys ?

[desolutionist]

Recent restrions / unrestrictions have made shop players happy... they will rise.

Which restrictions?  And why have they made shop players happy?  Why will they rise?

As stated before, I'll repeat myself... wise man says: Misassignment of role = GAME LOSS It's not that hard people You're the aggressor in about 80% of the match ups. You're not supposed to completely ignore the entire ability to play a control roll but most of the time you're the one trying to push for an early victory against an opponent franticly trying to stop you.

Why would you say playing control is a bad role assignment?  Ten disruption spells puts it zero to two cards behind Tez, a control deck.  Also, where did you get that percentage?  TPS can only be the aggressor if it actually do something relevant, which it often can't and is why I have been preferring a version with more draw spells and hand-fixing.  In Vintage, your role always depends on your opening hand.  I could open up with Dark Ritual, Black Lotus, Land, and Yawgmoth's Bargain to make me the aggressor or I could open up with Force of Will, Duress, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, Land, etc. to make me control.

BBB comes from Dark Ritual, Lotus and thirdly cabal ritual, it has nothing to do with Grim tutor. a first turn necropotence spells a win on the second turn and in the worst of scenarios a turn 3 kill. You don't Necro aggesively with TPS usually you're just using necro to refill your hand. assembling a combo kill with a force of will against an opponent dropping 2 spheres or casting a Duress + threat like you say isn't going to lose you the match (unless the threat is TV AND Key, it seems very unlikely for them to assemble those cards within 2 turns although not impossible)

Sorry, Grim Tutor converts 1BB to BBB.  Necropotence is broken but it can also be a double-edged sword and I don't think anyone who has played this deck will disagree with me there.

It has a home... the decks called Ichorid.... The card has no use in TPS.

Cephalid Coliseum is really great because it's a land that can be cashed in for draw three/discard three.  So it makes playing the control role a little easier on the combo part of the deck.  I can whittle away my opponent's disruption spells to nothing and then draw a lot of cards, probably getting something really good.  The only disadvantage of the card is that it can only produce blue mana.       

[Marske]

Which restrictions?  And why have they made shop players happy?  Why will they rise?

mostly unrestriction of Entomb and Crop rotation makes shop players happy, They WILL try to break these cards (maybe they fail maybe they don't) I've seen a rise in Shop decks overhere since the B/R list update.

Why would you say playing control is a bad role assignment?  Ten disruption spells puts it zero to two cards behind Tez, a control deck.  Also, where did you get that percentage?  TPS can only be the aggressor if it actually do something relevant, which it often can't and is why I have been preferring a version with more draw spells and hand-fixing.  In Vintage, your role always depends on your opening hand.  I could open up with Dark Ritual, Black Lotus, Land, and Yawgmoth's Bargain to make me the aggressor or I could open up with Force of Will, Duress, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, Land, etc. to make me control.

Ok, I'm fairly sure Steve has covered this in his articles and I've also said it in this thread. TPS CAN assume a control role this is correct, but your FoW and Duress are at their strongest when they are paving the way for your bomb to hit play and at their weakest when played to keep other players bombs at bay.

That percentage is fairly simple Against Drains in general: you're the aggressor, against any type of aggro you're the aggressor, against fish (depending on the build) you're the aggressor. Against Staxx you're the sculpt your hand use FoW / Duress to keep the big threads away dig for bounce guy aka The control, against ichorid you're the aggressor if possible but mostly you're the control because you slow them down with your hate cards and try to deploy your own game plan when you made sure you kept them busy enough to not go nutz on you.

Force of Will, Duress, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, Land, etc. to make me control.

How is this hand a "control" hand ? You're either Brainstorming in search of a bomb, duressing to keep the opponent from winning fast or merchant scrolling into ancestral... Do you just sitback open with Duress and keep FoW up untill you land something good ?? Depending on the other 2 cards (the ETC) you're not having a "control" hand with this.

Sorry, Grim Tutor converts 1BB to BBB.  Necropotence is broken but it can also be a double-edged sword and I don't think anyone who has played this deck will disagree with me there.

Necro can indeed be a double edged sword, but I'm really confidant in stating that it has won me more games then it has cost me. It's just so plainly broken in so many ways in a deck like TPS that not running it is madness. (I'm not getting into the Grim tutor discussion again, reread the thread to get my point of view on it if you like)

Cephalid Coliseum is really great because it's a land that can be cashed in for draw three/discard three.  So it makes playing the control role a little easier on the combo part of the deck.  I can whittle away my opponent's disruption spells to nothing and then draw a lot of cards, probably getting something really good.  The only disadvantage of the card is that it can only produce blue mana.  

It only works when you have threshold, it does damage if you use it for blue (limiting the cards you draw of Necro / Bargain, you chaining tutors together) you need to draw 3 and discard 3 so late game after you've played some tutors you're either pitching your hand or drawing into more stuff you don't really need at that time. Also games 2-3 (in which every single opponent will board graveyard hate against you) it gets less likely to actually take advantage of the draw 3 discard 3 clause because you won't have threshold that often. Not too mention it's wasteable and affected by blood moon / magus... You're better of running 1 island 1 swamp in these spots. One of the best parts of playing TPS is it's Rock solid mana base which you're cutting into in favor of a very situational and subpar card.

[hitman]

While I don't agree with Desolutionist's changes, I see exactly where he's coming from.  I reached similar conclusions but made much fewer changes in the form of Sleight of Hand for Merchant Scroll, Fact or Fiction and Misdirection.  Those cards are control oriented cards and they're best abused by Drain decks.  They fit poorly in a combo deck that is trying to go off now/soon and are bad at recoverying from disruption.  Fact or Fiction costs too much mana in a deck which depends largely on Dark Ritual to fuel the expensive cards.  The manabase is too light for this card.  Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall is a mediocre play for a combo deck.  You paid three mana, two of which is blue, and two cards to draw three random cards.  You probably tapped out early to do this, as well, meaning you have no subsequent play this turn (which is probably the second or third turn if Merchant Scroll was in your opening hand).  Merchant Scroll and Fact or Fiction are huge tempo sinkholes in a deck that wants to win as soon as possible.  TPS doesn't have the robust manabase to support these cards. 

Quote
Force of Will, Duress, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, Land, etc. to make me control.
How is this hand a "control" hand ? You're either Brainstorming in search of a bomb, duressing to keep the opponent from winning fast or merchant scrolling into ancestral... Do you just sitback open with Duress and keep FoW up untill you land something good ?? Depending on the other 2 cards (the ETC) you're not having a "control" hand with this.

That hand is definitely a control hand.  You have no resources to push through a game-winning bomb at this point.  You have to build up to that point and try to assume the control role as much as possible until you reach that point.

[Marske]

Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall is a mediocre play for a combo deck.  You paid three mana, two of which is blue, and two cards to draw three random cards.  You probably tapped out early to do this, as well, meaning you have no subsequent play this turn (which is probably the second or third turn if Merchant Scroll was in your opening hand).  

You're making it sound like Ancestral is a bad play because you see 3 random cards... You're paying 1UU and -2 cards to go to +3 so effectively you're gaining +1 card Advantage. Also you're either holding your moxen / mana crypt / sol ring / petal lotus on turn one or you're topdecking Scroll. A Scroll in your opening hand with Mox / Fetch means a turn 2 Ancestral fired off. This isn't a bad play by a long shot. Obviously it's assuming you can protect the ancestral... You've most likely drawn into mana accel + bombs / Tutors to setup a turn 2 (if you draw the nutz) or turn 3 kill.

Merchant Scroll is a narrower tutor than any other tutor in the deck aside from Polluted Delta and Tinker, but it is efficient and Blue. Being Blue means that it keeps your Blue count high enough to support pitch countermagic even though Brainstorm is restricted. It is also fast enough to find and fire off an impactful Ancestral Recall. In the alternative, if can find Force of Will for defense or Mystical Tutor to find Yawgmoth’s Will or Tendrils of Agony.

As Steve said in his article, this is still very true..

I agree about Fact and Misdir (at least in the current meta), The only problem is I haven't found a good substitute for FoF... The cards must be blue because of FoW and it must do something relevant for under 4 mana... Misdirection has turned into a rebuild in my current list to deal with the ever growing threat of Canonist and Stax, the fact that it's blue and cycles is just gravy.

That hand is definitely a control hand.  You have no resources to push through a game-winning bomb at this point.  You have to build up to that point and try to assume the control role as much as possible until you reach that point.

This is simply not true, there are unkown variables.. is this a 5 card hand after 2 mulligans ? If this is a 7 card hand (are we on the play / draw ? What is the opponent playing?) and the 2 "unknown" cards are they: Lotus, Ritual? Every bomb / tutor you hit with BS is going to spell a very aggresive start, are they Necro/ Ritual? Tinker - Crypt ? I mean there are lots of combinations that make this hand into a very aggressive setup for a turn 2 kill.

Stating these types of hands and saying "this is an obvious control hand" just isn't that simple with TPS without taking all the variables into account. Playing TPS isn't a "set in stone plan" you'll have to think flexible and on your feet and be aware of opportunity's and the weak spots your opponent shows you.

[hitman]

Stating these types of hands and saying "this is an obvious control hand" just isn't that simple with TPS without taking all the variables into account. Playing TPS isn't a "set in stone plan" you'll have to think flexible and on your feet and be aware of opportunity's and the weak spots your opponent shows you.

I understand that.  That said, with those cards in your hand, are you really going to be taking an aggressive approach?  You're probably going to want to lead with Duress here because if you don't hit both the acceleration and the bomb to cast it, your Brainstorm is going to net you some awkward draws for the next two turns.  Duressing first gives you an extra draw step before you dig with Brainstorm on turn two for land or whatever you may need at that point.  This does not seem like an aggressive approach to me.  I agree that the player has to be flexible and switch roles quickly but this hand is controlling by nature.  This is the typical turn one Duress, turn two Scroll for Recall with Force backup hand.  With an opening hand like that you must be assuming the control role. 

[Ufactor]

Sorry, Grim Tutor converts 1BB to BBB.  Necropotence is broken but it can also be a double-edged sword and I don't think anyone who has played this deck will disagree with me there.

Necro is the fourth or fifth best card in the entire deck.  It is rare that I've resolved necro and lost.  I would completely disagree with anything that implies that Necropotence is marginal inclusion in TPS

[shadow00]

 Hello again. Let me first start off by posting my current decklist:

// Lands
    1  Swamp
    1 Island
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Polluted Delta
    2  Underground Sea
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    1  Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
    1  Darksteel Colossus

// Spells
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1  Rebuild
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    4 Duress
    1 Grim Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Ponder
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Time Walk
    1 Timetwister
    1 Tinker
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Chain of Vapor
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    4 Force of Will
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Necropotence
    1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    2  Cabal Ritual
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Fact or Fiction
    1 Intuition

 Ok, now that that's posted lets move on. After extensive testing I really feel that another land has to be added to bring the count up to 13 which I personally feel is a stable number. Now this breaks down into 3 more things, A)Adding a 6th fetch or B)3rd Sea and also what to remove for it. Possible choices for removal are imperial seal, intuition, and fact or fiction. Any input on this?

[Marske]

I understand that.  That said, with those cards in your hand, are you really going to be taking an aggressive approach?  You're probably going to want to lead with Duress here because if you don't hit both the acceleration and the bomb to cast it, your Brainstorm is going to net you some awkward draws for the next two turns.  Duressing first gives you an extra draw step before you dig with Brainstorm on turn two for land or whatever you may need at that point.  This does not seem like an aggressive approach to me.  I agree that the player has to be flexible and switch roles quickly but this hand is controlling by nature.  This is the typical turn one Duress, turn two Scroll for Recall with Force backup hand.  With an opening hand like that you must be assuming the control role.

Hitman, you're missing (or ignoring) the fact that the hand suggested only had 5 cards: FoW, BS, Merchant, Duress, Land and a ETC (etcetera) added, which would imply the hand also had other cards in it (a full grip of 7) like I said depending on the 2 "unknown' cards this hand could be very explosive and aggressive.

@Shadow00

Ok, now that that's posted lets move on. After extensive testing I really feel that another land has to be added to bring the count up to 13 which I personally feel is a stable number. Now this breaks down into 3 more things, A)Adding a 6th fetch or B)3rd Sea and also what to remove for it. Possible choices for removal are imperial seal, intuition, and fact or fiction. Any input on this?

a sixth Fetch doesn't seem needed so a 3rd sea seems fine. I wouldn't cut into your tutors in order to support it. FoF seems the most logical.

[MaxxMatt]

I understand that.  That said, with those cards in your hand, are you really going to be taking an aggressive approach?  You're probably going to want to lead with Duress here because if you don't hit both the acceleration and the bomb to cast it, your Brainstorm is going to net you some awkward draws for the next two turns.  Duressing first gives you an extra draw step before you dig with Brainstorm on turn two for land or whatever you may need at that point.  This does not seem like an aggressive approach to me.  I agree that the player has to be flexible and switch roles quickly but this hand is controlling by nature.  This is the typical turn one Duress, turn two Scroll for Recall with Force backup hand.  With an opening hand like that you must be assuming the control role.

Hitman, you're missing (or ignoring) the fact that the hand suggested only had 5 cards: FoW, BS, Merchant, Duress, Land and a ETC (etcetera) added, which would imply the hand also had other cards in it (a full grip of 7) like I said depending on the 2 "unknown' cards this hand could be very explosive and aggressive.

I agree with Marske about the player's menthal approach towards both TPS' hands and opponents.
There aren't preferred path to follow. Every hand must be evaluated carefully and with a wide and foresighting perspective angle. While you can assume control role Duressing opponent first in order to setup a couple of turn 2/3 plays, you could be obliged to play differently against specific opponents.

Is he going to waste your land? Is it your only mana font? Have you mulilganed twice or not? Is he on the draw or on the play? Are you trying to go off without Duressing opponent because you know opponent's deck? These little additional examples can force you play this hand perfectly but differently from the general path seems suggested by the cards in your hand at an initial sight.

TPS is strong and subtle especially because of the high variance strenght of his topdeck.

IMHO,
if I have mulliganed twice I will not lead with Duress because of the high risk of being mana screwed ( aside knowing opponent ).
if I have a full grip of 7 cards, I'll start playing Duress only if Land = USea and I have another land, especially Fecthland
if I have an off color Moxen and another non land card, I can't assure you I'll lead with Duress against an unknown opponent but I'll highly evaluate dropping land and pass the turn, preparing the explosion next turn after Brainstorming during his EoT or, if needed, responding to his own spells
if I have an in color Moxen, Duress & Brainstorm are both your best friends and you are going to resolve them all in your very first turn

other options, other choices

@Shadow00

Ok, now that that's posted lets move on. After extensive testing I really feel that another land has to be added to bring the count up to 13 which I personally feel is a stable number. Now this breaks down into 3 more things, A)Adding a 6th fetch or B)3rd Sea and also what to remove for it. Possible choices for removal are imperial seal, intuition, and fact or fiction. Any input on this?

a sixth Fetch doesn't seem needed so a 3rd sea seems fine. I wouldn't cut into your tutors in order to support it. FoF seems the most logical.

I'll add Fetch#6 cutting CabalRitual#2 or Intuition#1.
Your mana base resemble mine short one slot: exactly this one.
I feel really fine playing with only 5 rituals. Additional land doesn't slow me down at all and ritual#6, while strong, isn't game breaking, expecially if you are adding another land because of the highly fish & artifact based field: adding stability will enhance your winning rate the most.
Intuition is really strong too, but, again, is highly resources consuming and too much grave dependent. Ichorid & YWill.dec usually force opponents to hate out graveyard since maindeck: you will be going to add more expected value and long term power to your deck with a lesser YWill.based deck configuration rather than improving a routine will just plain & simple win you games without saving from your bad matchps as much as an additional land can do.



Maxx

[Stormanimagus]

I feel really fine playing with only 5 rituals. Additional land doesn't slow me down at all and ritual#6, while strong, isn't game breaking, expecially if you are adding another land because of the highly fish & artifact based field: adding stability will enhance your winning rate the most.
Intuition is really strong too, but, again, is highly resources consuming and too much grave dependent. Ichorid & YWill.dec usually force opponents to hate out graveyard since maindeck: you will be going to add more expected value and long term power to your deck with a lesser YWill.based deck configuration rather than improving a routine will just plain & simple win you games without saving from your bad matchps as much as an additional land can do.

I think that you either run Intuition in concert with at least 2 Cabal Rituals or you don't run Intuition. A common play with Intuition is to Intuition for Lotus, Cabal Rit., Cabal Rit. If that play gives you threshold you've basically Intuitioned for Triple Lotus. Without 2 Cabal Rituals you can't make that play.

[desolutionist]

It only works when you have threshold, it does damage if you use it for blue (limiting the cards you draw of Necro / Bargain, you chaining tutors together) you need to draw 3 and discard 3 so late game after you've played some tutors you're either pitching your hand or drawing into more stuff you don't really need at that time. Also games 2-3 (in which every single opponent will board graveyard hate against you) it gets less likely to actually take advantage of the draw 3 discard 3 clause because you won't have threshold that often. Not too mention it's wasteable and affected by blood moon / magus... You're better of running 1 island 1 swamp in these spots. One of the best parts of playing TPS is it's Rock solid mana base which you're cutting into in favor of a very situational and subpar card.

After some testing last night, I think you're right, the 4x basic mana base is better however, Cephalid Coliseum is a lot better than you make it seem. 

How is this hand a "control" hand ? You're either Brainstorming in search of a bomb, duressing to keep the opponent from winning fast or merchant scrolling into ancestral... Do you just sitback open with Duress and keep FoW up untill you land something good ?? Depending on the other 2 cards (the ETC) you're not having a "control" hand with this.

Well the idea is that you can't win on turn one and have no clear path for a turn two kill.  I believe in situations like this is when you have to make sure your opponent isn't going to kill you with a Goblin Charbelcher or Trinisphere.

[Marske]

After some testing last night, I think you're right, the 4x basic mana base is better however, Cephalid Coliseum is a lot better than you make it seem.

Coliseum is a great card no doubt about it and it finds it's way into some decks I play. That being said, the card just doesn't fit well with what TPS is trying to do.

Well the idea is that you can't win on turn one and have no clear path for a turn two kill.  I believe in situations like this is when you have to make sure your opponent isn't going to kill you with a Goblin Charbelcher or Trinisphere.

First of all, you shouldn't be going for a turn 1 kill with TPS (unless your hand is completely of the chart bonkers), depending on what the 2 "blank" cards are and what you get out of your brainstorm you can't even say this hand isn't a turn 2 kill. It's very possible to grab-Tinker, Crypt, Time walk of Brainstorm which makes this hand into a turn 3 kill or any other combination like - Lotus, Dark rit - Grim. You must walk the fine line between knowing which roll to assume regarding to what you're hand / cards give you, this hand has control elements to hold out a bit if your BS gives you nothing (also note that if the lands in your hand are fetches this changes a bit) and it has the potential to be very aggressive, both lines are still open, judging hands like this based just on the fact that you got 2 disruptive elements and scroll and no "real" setup and just saying it's a control hand can prove fatally flawed . You are ignoring the filtering Brainstorm gives you and the top card of your deck. TPS has very nasty "topdecks"  which can just shift a mediocre control hand to a very aggressive "I'm winning now" hand.

ps. Off topic
Since I took on the challenge Storm put up a bit back in this threat my Inbox has been flooded with PM's so it looks like I'm writing the article, I'll keep you guys updated as it progresses.

[rilegard]

I want to know your opinion and experience about why is normally included gifts ungiven versus intuition.
Is the extra card that critical?
Could it change on a meta with growing "mana denial"?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[dragzz]

The extra card _is_ crucial, it ensures that you get 2 tutors, or 4 mana, very important when preparing to go off.

Other that going for intuition for 3 FOW/Duress when preparing for a kill, I could not think other situtations wherein intuition would be better that Gifts.

When you need missing combo pieces/mana boost/ tutors, Intuition gives you the worse possible card in you pile, which would typically be a mystical/imperial seal/mana crypt/dark rit/cabal ritual, which may not be enough to give you leverage. Gifts on the other hand would give mana crypt and dark rit (you rarely get cabal as resolving a gifts would almost ensure you have thresh and good players would not let you get +3 mana) ensuring + 4 mana, or 2 tutors that would let you search for a combo piece and possibly protection.